Would you file an FTC or FCC complaint for Android T-Mobile

[The Real Bev]

On 04/05/2014 03:02 PM, nobody@nada.com wrote:

600MB provides a reasonable amount of space for apps. Wanting to
store content, like offline maps, will eat space faster. Google Play
shows the size of apps so you can estimate what the app uses of
storage.

Actually, no. I've downloaded apps that claim something like 5 MB, but
when I end up deleting them the program itself (not the stored data,
which i delete separately) takes up more than 3 or 4 times as much space
as the claim.

Is it possible that some of the apps are zipped files that autounzip
themselves into much larger versions?

My apps use over 2GB but there are about 200 of them on my
phone. The people ate T-Mobile are sales people, and T-Mobile is a
marketing company not a technology company.

--
Cheers, Bev
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"I read about this syndrome called hypochondria in a
magazine. I think I've got it." -- DA

 

[The Real Bev]

On 04/05/2014 04:56 PM, TJ wrote:

On 04/05/2014 02:34 PM, Danny D. wrote:

One complaint is just one disgruntled consumer.

HINT: If you feel like complaining, you get 1,000 characters on the
online FCC complaint form & 3,000 characters on the online FTC form:
FCC 888-225-5322 http://www.fcc.gov/complaints (deceptive advertising)
FTC 877-382-4357 https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details#crnt

I have nothing to complain about. I knew the "full" capacity of the
internal storage wasn't available for my use,

Where did you discover this knowledge? What did you know that led you
to seek it out? My computer has RAM and ROM internally, and whatever
size hard drive(s) I want to add. Less RAM/ROM means stuff works
slower, but is entirely independent of the size of the hard drive. Is
it such a leap to assume that Android phones are similarly organized?

just as the "full"
capacity of my computer's hard drives aren't available. I've known it
for decades.

The majority of the HD space is NOT unavailable, though.


--
Cheers, Bev
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"I read about this syndrome called hypochondria in a
magazine. I think I've got it." -- DA

 

[Michael Black]

On Mon, 7 Apr 2014, The Real Bev wrote:

On 04/05/2014 04:46 AM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 02:58:57 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

The solution, of course, is to 'root' the phone.
Then you can do what you like with the storage ...

I've never rooted a phone, but, I may be forced to do so,
just to make the phone usable.

I do agree with you that *all* the preloaded apps won't allow
you to move them.

I guess if you could move them, you could delete them.

Mewonders if Google makes certain apps non-removable (e.g., Chrome)
because it's in there best interest. Yet, mewonders why
T-Mobile makes certain apps (e.g., T-Mobile TV) non-removable,
since there are plenty of their apps I'd never ever use but
I can't get rid of.

Chrome (the Android 'Browser') is much faster than firefox, but does NOT
allow adblock plus -- which I consider essential for any browsing I do,
especially with severely limited screen size.

There are always tradeoffs :-(

It makes sense. Chrome is an extension of google, and google relies on
ads to make money. Google wants to be the place where people "log in" and
then roam around the internet, making it easier for them to track you, and
then display appropriate ads all over the place.

I'm not saying it's good, just "makes sense" from google's viewpoint.

Michael

 

[The Real Bev]

On 04/06/2014 08:43 AM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 09:19:11 -0400, TJ wrote:

Strong suggestion: Learn from your experience.

The bad news is that nobody would buy this LG Optimus L9
if they truthfully advertised it's a 600MB phone for apps.

The result of that bad news is that I can't use the phone
as it is (i.e., out of the box), since it is a 600MB phone
for apps (even with the 32 GB SDcard).

So, the good news implication is that, even if I brick it,
I haven't lost anything, since the phone is worthless from
the get go.

All I can do is make a worthless phone less worthless or
more worthless, depending on the outcome of my cyanogenmod
efforts ...

I'm trying to line up my ducks with this tutorial:
http://www.androidrooting.com/how-to-root-lg-optimus-l9-p769-very-easily/

BUT FIRST find out how to restore its virginity in the event of failure!

--
Cheers,
Bev
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"I read about this syndrome called hypochondria in a
magazine. I think I've got it." -- DA

 

[The Real Bev]

On 04/06/2014 09:23 AM, John McGaw wrote:

On 4/4/2014 11:55 AM, Danny D. wrote:
Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Without arguing why I feel that way, I just wish to ask here whether
the complaint rightly goes to the FTC or to the FCC?

On the one hand, it's (grossly) false and misleading advertising.
On the other hand, it's a communication device.

Whom would you file the complaint to?
How?

I would complain to neither since both claims seem to be literally true. If
I made such a purchase and wanted somebody to blame for the results then
I'd have to start by blaming myself for not doing a bit of basic research
before the act. Whinging afterward seldom does any good.

When we buy an automobile, we have certain unstated expectations --
motor, wheels, steering wheel etc. We don't need to ask for these
specifically because everybody knows that they're part of the car. When
was the last time you bought a car and the salesman asked "And will you
be wanting headlights with that, sir?"

Maybe that was how it worked 100 years ago, but not for a long time now.

Buying a cellphone, especially the first one, is very different.
First-time buyers don't know what they don't know. Since this is
relatively new technology aimed partially at first-time buyers, the
decent thing is to provide more and better explanation.

Unless the intent is to screw the customers, of course.

--
Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Marketing Professional's Motto: "We don't screw the customers. All
we're doing is holding them down while the salespeople screw them."

-- Scott Adams

 

[tlvp]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 15:02:44 -0700, nobody@nada.com wrote:

> 600MB provides a reasonable amount of space for apps

Sure does. In fact, it's > 4x the space my 20th century Win 3.1 pen/windows
tablet had for its whole HD . (Yup: everything ran off a 129 MB HDD.)

Shucks, you young 'uns . Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

 

[tlvp]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 15:14:28 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

> Unless the intent is to screw the customers, of course.

Probably not the explicit intent ... but a welcome side-effect? Certainly.

Cheers, tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

 

[josephkk]

On Mon, 7 Apr 2014 02:08:35 +0100, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

"John McGaw" <Nobody@Nowh.ere> wrote in message
news:_cf0v.16084$Va6.4717@fx21.iad...
On 4/4/2014 11:55 AM, Danny D. wrote:
Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Without arguing why I feel that way, I just wish to ask here whether
the complaint rightly goes to the FTC or to the FCC?

On the one hand, it's (grossly) false and misleading advertising.
On the other hand, it's a communication device.

Whom would you file the complaint to?
How?


I would complain to neither since both claims seem to be literally true.
If I made such a purchase and wanted somebody to blame for the results
then I'd have to start by blaming myself for not doing a bit of basic
research before the act. Whinging afterward seldom does any good.


I don't know about the U.S., but here in the UK, the mobile phone business
seems to be the modern day equivalent of the dodgy car dealers of the past.
Whilst you might well say that it is the OP's fault that he didn't do enough
research, I have to say that I have a degree of sympathy with him. The
claims being made by the people who sold him the phone are, in my opinion,
misleading at a minimum, and bordering on bare faced lies at worst. It's
also fine for the other good folk on here who really understand about phones
to deride the OP for his lack of knowledge, but it could just as easily be a
similar situation with some other product for them.

I consider myself to be an intelligent and tech-savvy person - I repair
electronic equipment for a living, and have done for 45 years - but I also
got caught by exactly the same problem as the OP, although for my useage, I
was able to get around it enough without it rendering the phone useless to
me.

So, what is the rationale behind the root owners 'locking' this bloatware so
that you can't at least move it if not delete it, or why put it on there in
the first place ? Do they get paid by the originators to put it on there,
and make sure it stays on there ? And if you are going to go to the trouble
of designing in additional external memory capability, why not allow its
full useage for anything other than storing photos on ?

So yes, I quite understand where the OP is coming from on this one, and why
he feels that he has been misled as to the capabilities of his phone for the
purposes that he needs - particularly after he took the trouble to ask those
who *should* have known, and who *should* have been able to advise him with
regard to the true amount of app storage available to him, and the
restricted storage abilities of the SD card as an augmentation of the
internal storage.

Arfa

Oh, blarg. Think about who has skin in the game on how Android
development progresses. That is who is paying the bills, and guess what,
they who provide the gelt call the shots.

HTH

?-0

 

[Stanley Daniel de Liver]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 23:05:05 +0100, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:

On Mon, 7 Apr 2014, The Real Bev wrote:

On 04/05/2014 04:46 AM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 02:58:57 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

The solution, of course, is to 'root' the phone.
Then you can do what you like with the storage ...
I've never rooted a phone, but, I may be forced to do so,
just to make the phone usable.
I do agree with you that *all* the preloaded apps won't allow
you to move them.
I guess if you could move them, you could delete them.
Mewonders if Google makes certain apps non-removable (e.g., Chrome)
because it's in there best interest. Yet, mewonders why
T-Mobile makes certain apps (e.g., T-Mobile TV) non-removable,
since there are plenty of their apps I'd never ever use but
I can't get rid of.

Chrome (the Android 'Browser') is much faster than firefox, but does
NOT allow adblock plus -- which I consider essential for any browsing I
do, especially with severely limited screen size.

There are always tradeoffs :-(

It makes sense. Chrome is an extension of google, and google relies on
ads to make money. Google wants to be the place where people "log in"
and then roam around the internet, making it easier for them to track
you, and then display appropriate ads all over the place.

I'm not saying it's good, just "makes sense" from google's viewpoint.

Michael

If you're savvy (and you probably are if you've rooted your device), then
a hosts file can kill 99% of known adverts.
http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm


--
It's a money /life balance.

 

[dave]

On 04/07/2014 07:49 AM, nospam wrote:

In article <ye-dnck2adkFMd_OnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@earthlink.com>, dave
ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

Why does Android tell me they can't play .flac or .wav when they
actually can? In fact they tell you to transcode down before loading.
WTF? Almost all my files are from CDs and are lossless. Memory is cheap,
hearing is not. I do not store RAW photos. There are limits to my
self-indulgence.

hearing is definitely not lossless and grows worse as people age.

people can't hear a difference between a lossless audio file and a
properly done mp3/aac, especially at 256kbps or 320kbps.

they might think they can, but in a double-blind test, people have
consistently *not* been able to tell the difference. countless such
tests have been done, with many, many people.

there certainly isn't an audible difference on headphones or with the
built-in speakers of a device.

I would not put headphones in the same category as built-in speakers.
Perhaps the average schmuck in a test can't tell, maybe I can't tell,
but in 10 years I will still have clean copies of my music, and my
hearing, which is fine. If you do MP3 at 256k or 320k why not just
record the PCM as a .wav? What is the advantage of using MPEG
compression? H264 aac? Or Apple aac?

 

[dave]

On 04/07/2014 03:05 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

On 04/06/2014 08:43 AM, Danny D. wrote:

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 09:19:11 -0400, TJ wrote:

Strong suggestion: Learn from your experience.

The bad news is that nobody would buy this LG Optimus L9
if they truthfully advertised it's a 600MB phone for apps.

The result of that bad news is that I can't use the phone
as it is (i.e., out of the box), since it is a 600MB phone
for apps (even with the 32 GB SDcard).

So, the good news implication is that, even if I brick it,
I haven't lost anything, since the phone is worthless from
the get go.

All I can do is make a worthless phone less worthless or
more worthless, depending on the outcome of my cyanogenmod
efforts ...

I'm trying to line up my ducks with this tutorial:

http://www.androidrooting.com/how-to-root-lg-optimus-l9-p769-very-easily/

BUT FIRST find out how to restore its virginity in the event of failure!

Use Youtube video tutorials.

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:52:55 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

I did a lot of reading about cellphones, but NOWHERE did I see it
mentioned that external sdcards couldn't run applications.

I think most reviewers don't even know this fact!

Certainly, I didn't know it before I bought the phones.

I only learned after the phones came back to me to 'fix',
when I found out, sadly, without rooting, that it would
be very difficult (if not impossible) to move the
pre-installed apps or to install new apps, to the sdcard.

I admit, I was an idiot. I had trusted that the reviewers
actually knew what they were doing. Now, I belatedly realize,
they're all shills, CNET & PC Magazine (sadly) included.

PC Magazine:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411883,00.asp

CNET:
http://www.cnet.com/products/lg-optimus-l9-t-mobile/

 

[Howard Schornstein]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:19:55 -0700, The Real Bev scrit:

> Sort of like WW2 'dazzle' paint on ships

I'm afraid to ask.

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 14:45:11 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

FCC 888-225-5322 http://www.fcc.gov/complaints (deceptive advertising)
FTC 877-382-4357 https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details#crnt

OK, I complained to both. The FTC complaint contained a bit of
clarification missing in my FCC complaint:
If you like my complaint, feel free to use it or any part of it in your own.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

That complaint was perfect.

I'm a normal consumer, who fell for an advertising 'trick' that only
a VERY well informed consumer would NOT fall for.

Because of that, they should make it clear that you can't use the
SD card for storage of apps!

Thank you again!

 

[Kerry Blethan]

The Real Bev wrote:

FCC 888-225-5322 http://www.fcc.gov/complaints (deceptive advertising)
FTC 877-382-4357 https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details#crnt

OK, I complained to both. The FTC complaint contained a bit of
clarification missing in my FCC complaint:

I hope you don't mind, but I filed the same complaint that you did!

"When I was first interested in buying an Android cellphone, I
had realized that I wanted an external sdcard in order to NOT
be limited by the internal phone memory.

Every provider of phones gives the amount of internal FLASH memory
(in my case, 4GB) along with the fact that a slot for an external
SD card ("up to 32 GB", in my case) is provided (or not provided).

HOWEVER, NO CONSUMER WARNING is provided by the manufacturer on
any of their advertisements, web sites, specifications, manuals,
or technical support phone calls, that IT'S IMPOSSIBLE to move
the preloaded apps off that internal memory onto the sd card!

If companies provide the amount of USABLE memory to the consumer,
instead of the worthless specification of TOTAL MEMORY, Consumers
would not be tricked into buying a phone that turns out to not
be as advertised.

In short, the advertisements should make it clear to the
consumers that the sdcard memory is UNUSABLE for application
storage. Anything less said, is intended to mislead the
consumer. That is fraud."

 

[nospam]

In article <Bd6dnf_rwNu2bt7OnZ2dnUVZ_oCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, dave
<ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

On 04/07/2014 07:49 AM, nospam wrote:
In article <ye-dnck2adkFMd_OnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@earthlink.com>, dave
ricketzz@earthlink.net> wrote:

Why does Android tell me they can't play .flac or .wav when they
actually can? In fact they tell you to transcode down before loading.
WTF? Almost all my files are from CDs and are lossless. Memory is cheap,
hearing is not. I do not store RAW photos. There are limits to my
self-indulgence.

hearing is definitely not lossless and grows worse as people age.

people can't hear a difference between a lossless audio file and a
properly done mp3/aac, especially at 256kbps or 320kbps.

they might think they can, but in a double-blind test, people have
consistently *not* been able to tell the difference. countless such
tests have been done, with many, many people.

there certainly isn't an audible difference on headphones or with the
built-in speakers of a device.

I would not put headphones in the same category as built-in speakers.

they're in the same category in that neither is particularly good and
they aren't used in situations where perfect sound matters, such as
jogging, walking or riding on a train or airplane.

Perhaps the average schmuck in a test can't tell, maybe I can't tell,
but in 10 years I will still have clean copies of my music, and my
hearing, which is fine. If you do MP3 at 256k or 320k why not just
record the PCM as a .wav? What is the advantage of using MPEG
compression? H264 aac? Or Apple aac?

the reason to use compressed audio is because it's significantly
smaller than uncompressed audio, with no audible difference.

typically, one can get around 5-10x as much music in the same space or
have the same amount of music with plenty of room to spare for other
stuff, such as apps, photos, videos and whatever else you might want.

why waste the space on something that can't be heard?

and aac is not apple's. it's an industry standard that's better than
mp3.

 

[Danny D.]

On Mon, 07 Apr 2014 15:14:28 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:

Buying a cellphone, especially the first one, is very different.
First-time buyers don't know what they don't know.
Unless the intent is to screw the customers, of course.

I admit I am a dumb consumer.

I fell for the trick that the 32GB sd card could, somehow,
augment the 4GB of "total internal memory" (aka Flash).

I was wrong. Dead wrong. Dumb wrong. Idiot stupid wrong.

However, look at this PC Magazine review of the phone:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411883,00.asp

To its credit, it does say "Unfortunately, bloatware runs
rampant. You get nine pieces of bloatware from T-Mobile
alone, and you can't delete any of it."

But, it NEVER SAID that you can't use the SD card for
app storage. And, it never said you only get 600MB
in toto, for app storage!

In fact, it mistook what the OS reported as the
available memory, when we already know that to be
untrue (see the memory thread for details).

"The Optimus L9 has 1.69GB of free internal storage,
along with an empty microSD card slot underneath the
battery cover. My 32 and 64GB SanDisk cards worked fine."

Notice that PC Magazine, essentially said:
a) Too much T-Mobile bloatware (true)
b) 1.69MB free internal storage (dead wrong)
c) 32 & 64 GB cards work (yea, but not for app storage!)

I would say that anyone reading that PC Magazine review
could be FOOLED into assuming (as I had) that the
sd card could be used to overcome the limitations
of the limited (FLASH) "total internal memory".

And, certainly, PC Magazine got it DEAD WRONG that
there is "1.69MB of free internal storage"!

Clearly, PC Magazine never read this thread:
How do we get Android to spit out the true memory & storage situation?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.mobile.android/true$20memory/comp.mobile.android/e6svmGS1M-E/-dONxP8YopcJ

 

[Danny D.]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 18:15:52 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

However, look at this PC Magazine review of the phone:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411883,00.asp

And look at the (much worse) CNET review of the phone:
http://www.cnet.com/products/lg-optimus-l9-t-mobile/

While they did correctly summarize that the T-Mobile L9
"comes preloaded with too much bloatware, they never
stated that there was only 600MB of usable storage space
for apps.

They repeated, in the so-called review "the L9 has way
too much bloatware", but they never said how much was
left for them, as a user, to store apps.

Considering the fact that they glossed over the fact
there was only 600MB of usable memory, can you blame
a naive consumer for thinking what they do?

They'd never sell the phone if they told the truth!

 

[dave]

On 04/08/2014 07:07 AM, nospam wrote:

there certainly isn't an audible difference on headphones or with the
built-in speakers of a device.

I would not put headphones in the same category as built-in speakers.

they're in the same category in that neither is particularly good and
they aren't used in situations where perfect sound matters, such as
jogging, walking or riding on a train or airplane.

Perhaps the average schmuck in a test can't tell, maybe I can't tell,
but in 10 years I will still have clean copies of my music, and my
hearing, which is fine. If you do MP3 at 256k or 320k why not just
record the PCM as a .wav? What is the advantage of using MPEG
compression? H264 aac? Or Apple aac?

the reason to use compressed audio is because it's significantly
smaller than uncompressed audio, with no audible difference.

typically, one can get around 5-10x as much music in the same space or
have the same amount of music with plenty of room to spare for other
stuff, such as apps, photos, videos and whatever else you might want.

why waste the space on something that can't be heard?

and aac is not apple's. it's an industry standard that's better than
mp3.

"Space" is cheap, hearing is not. Perceptual coding is audible to lots
of people who listen for a living. These include musicians and audio
engineers. FLAC is free lossless audio codec. Compression and lossy
compression are 2 different things.

http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/formats/fdd/fdd000110.shtml

Apple is where I was first exposed to aac. Sorry if I upset you. And you
have obviously never listened to a pair of Grados so I don't know what
to think about your opinions regarding listening to hifi.

 

[TJ]

On 04/07/2014 05:52 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

I should have read this newsgroup before buying the phone. I've found
that people who review products in various "forums" and
sales/manufacturers' websites generally don't have a clue.

:-(

Straying a bit off-topic, but the same thing can be said for most user
reviews. Some are done by shills paid by competitors to pan the item.
Some are done by people who have purchased it but haven't even opened
the "box" yet. And some are done by kids, who by definition think they
know everything. Maybe 10% are honest reviews. Trouble is, it can be
hard to find which 10% that is.

TJ