Would you file an FTC or FCC complaint for Android T-Mobile

[TJ]

On 04/05/2014 09:31 AM, TJ wrote:

Maybe even contact a US Senator looking to get re-elected. Try one of
mine, Chuck Schumer. He's always looking for causes to "investigate" to
get his name in the paper.


Wow. Really revealed my age on that one. I should have said, "in the news."

TJ

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Danny D." <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:lhoqdt$mia$1@speranza.aioe.org...

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 02:58:57 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

The solution, of course, is to 'root' the phone.
Then you can do what you like with the storage ...

I've never rooted a phone, but, I may be forced to do so,
just to make the phone usable.

My son is a whizz with this sort of thing. He recently installed the latest
Samsung update on his phone, but it was so buggy, that it screwed many
things that had been previously ok, including making it incredibly slow, and
generating random freeze-ups and crashes. Eventually, in frustration at not
being able to reinstate the previous version, he just rooted the thing. He
now enjoys full speed and stable performance, with the added benefit that he
can now use the internal and external storage just as he wishes.

I do agree with you that *all* the preloaded apps won't allow
you to move them.

I guess if you could move them, you could delete them.

I had a problem with mine rejecting texts because it said that it was out of
storage space, but when you went looking for what was actually left free, it
declared that there was plenty. I managed to shift a couple of apps to the
card, and that freed up enough space to keep me going, but I was still not
happy. Eventually, I found an app on there that was something like "Samsung
Updater" which was a utility for keeping apps downloaded from their app
store up to date. This app was massive, and since I don't have anything on
the phone that would need it, I tried to see if it would delete and Lo! it
did, which freed up considerable space. Thing is, I have a phone for phoning
and texting with. I'm not really interested in its 'smart' features other
than the ability to use it as a camera and a couple of other useful things.
I have no need to run Faceache or Twatter or the 101 games and other shit
that kids run. If I really want that, then I have a tablet or computer.
Unfortunately, the current Android platforms that the phone manufacturers
have locked into their products, just don't allow me to customise my phone
to the level that I want to, which seems to be your problem as well. Seems
to rather defeat the original concept of Android being 'open', to me ...

Arfa

Mewonders if Google makes certain apps non-removable (e.g., Chrome)
because it's in there best interest. Yet, mewonders why
T-Mobile makes certain apps (e.g., T-Mobile TV) non-removable,
since there are plenty of their apps I'd never ever use but
I can't get rid of.

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:47:53 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

Eventually, in frustration at not being able to reinstate the
previous version, he just rooted the thing.

Short of rooting the phone, I just called LG technical support
at 800-243-0000.

They said that after ICS (Android 4.0, ice cream sandwich), Google
disabled the ability to move or load apps onto the SD card.

Is that correct information?
If so, I should have known that.

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:47:53 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

I managed to shift a couple of apps to the
card, and that freed up enough space to keep me going,

I can't shift *any* of the pre-installed apps to the SD card!
The settings apps button doesn't have a MOVE (or delete).
How can you do that?

When I called LG, just now, at 800-243-0000, the representative
(Leyda, in Mobile Communications Support) said that,
after Ice Cream Sandwich, Google (not LG) disabled the ability
to load apps onto the SD card, and also removed the ability to
MOVE apps to the SD card.

So, if that's true, how did you move apps to the SD card?
(I'm so confused.)

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 09:24:32 -0400, TJ wrote:

Judging by that, I'd say that if the company reps said "usable" memory,
you haven't a leg to stand on. The memory on the phone is *usable." You
use it every time you turn the phone on. It's usefulness may be limited,
but that's different from "unusable." That's what the lawyers would
argue, anyway.

I do agree with you. I think my complaint won't carry much weight with
either the FTC or the FCC unless (and this is the biggie), unless I'm
not alone in considering this deceptive advertising.

For example, if hundreds or thousands of consumers complain with the same
complaint of deceptive advertising, then the FTC and/or FCC, I think,
would take it seriously.

If I'm the only one who is complaining of deceptive advertising, then,
I'm simply the one fool in the crowd who fell for it.

It's no different than when people complain about an automotive defect
or an advertising scam. If enough people complain about deceptive
advertising, the FTC and/or FCC will listen.

One complaint is just one disgruntled consumer.

HINT: If you feel like complaining, you get 1,000 characters on the
online FCC complaint form & 3,000 characters on the online FTC form:
FCC 888-225-5322 http://www.fcc.gov/complaints (deceptive advertising)
FTC 877-382-4357 https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details#crnt

 

[dave]

On 04/05/2014 06:33 AM, TJ wrote:

On 04/05/2014 09:31 AM, TJ wrote:

Maybe even contact a US Senator looking to get re-elected. Try one of
mine, Chuck Schumer. He's always looking for causes to "investigate" to
get his name in the paper.


Wow. Really revealed my age on that one. I should have said, "in the news."

TJ

What is the OP using to determine he can't use the memory outside the
phone? I've never seen that (except Apple junk).

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 09:31:17 -0400, TJ wrote:

If I were you and I still wanted to pursue the matter, I'd involve some
consumer advocate groups like Consumer Reports. My guess is they already
have several others who feel as betrayed as you do.

I've always wanted to get Consumer Reports (aka Consumers Union) involved,
especially when the *true* test of how much *usable* memory is far different
than the carrier's *advertised* internal memory specifications.

But, I could never find the correct *person* to speak to.
Everyone I spoke to had absolutely no clue what I was saying (technically).

Basically, all my prior inquiries in the past went into a black hole:
http://consumersunion.org/about/contact-us/
Consumers Union in NY 914-378-2000 (press 0 for the operator)
In Texas 512-477-4431, in Washington 202-462-6262, SF 415-431-6747

The best I could do is write a measly review:
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/products/user-reviews/category-select.htm

But, what we'd like to ask CR to do is run a *test* of the true
available memory on the budget smartphones, which should be right
down their alley.

For that, we'd need to get an *editor* interested in the concept.
http://consumersunion.org/experts-staff/

Do you have any decent Consumers Union contact information for someone
who would understand that, and, more importantly, *care* about writing
such an article on budget smartphone usable memory?

I don't.
(They never answer email to their general inbox.)

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 11:44:48 -0400, TJ wrote:

He wants to move apps to his external card, mostly bloatware installed
as part of the system by T-Mobile, and the OS won't let him do so. So,
because he can't use it the way he wants to use it, he has declared it
"useless."

This is correct, but I would also like to clarify:

I had bought the phone *assuming* I could augment the puny 4GB internal
ROM with a cheap $30 class-10 32GB external micro-SD card.

However, apparently Google has disabled the ability to MOVE applications
to the external SD card and they have disabled the ability to DOWNLOAD
applications TO the SD card, in Android versions after Ice Cream Sandwich
(according to Leyda at LG Mobile Communications 800-243-0000).

LG tells me they don't install anything, so, it's T-Mobile who puts on
the operating system and the pre-installed apps. The operating system
plus the pre-installed (non-removable) apps takes up all but 600MB of
the internal memory, out of the box.

Had I known this was, in effect, a 600MB phone, even with a 32GB
external memory card, I would never have purchased the phone.

You can call me stupid, but, it wasn't obvious to me that the SD card
slot was nearly useless, since you apparently can't install apps on the
SD card.

With only 600MB available, in toto, for apps, the phone becomes almost
wholly useless as a "smart" phone (IMHO).

To be clear, it's fine as a voice phone; but it's nearly useless as a
smart phone, IMHO, because it only allows a paltry 600MB of apps.

My mistake was in believing that I could augment the admittedly puny
4GB of internal memory with the 32GB card. I believe the reviews and
the carrier should have told me that the phone has only 600 MB of
storage space for apps, since there is absolutely no way anyone could
know this ahead of time.

That last point is critical.

There is no way you can know this information without both having
the phone in your hands, and in adding your Google Play account
so that you can try to download apps. Only *after* you've downloaded
600 MB of apps will you realize that the stated 1.8 GB of "usable
memory" that the OS reports is a bold-faced lie.

Since it's impossible to know the true available memory (of 600 MB)
without owning the phone yourself, I believe the carrier should have
told me this information when I asked them about the "usable" memory.

While you can call me an idiot for thinking that the phone had
anything more than 600 MB of "usable memory", does my argument at
least make sense to you?

That is, would YOU have been similarly deceived or did you know,
from the start, that the 4GB phone is really only a 600MB phone?

(i.e., am I the only idiot out there who was fooled?)

 

[TJ]

On 04/05/2014 10:47 AM, dave wrote:

On 04/05/2014 06:33 AM, TJ wrote:
On 04/05/2014 09:31 AM, TJ wrote:

Maybe even contact a US Senator looking to get re-elected. Try one of
mine, Chuck Schumer. He's always looking for causes to "investigate" to
get his name in the paper.


Wow. Really revealed my age on that one. I should have said, "in the
news."

TJ


What is the OP using to determine he can't use the memory outside the
phone? I've never seen that (except Apple junk).

He wants to move apps to his external card, mostly bloatware installed
as part of the system by T-Mobile, and the OS won't let him do so. So,
because he can't use it the way he wants to use it, he has declared it
"useless."

TJ

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:25:37 -0500, Paul Miner wrote:

Can you expand a bit on why you feel that the phone is useless? Surely it
works as advertised, able to do everything it's supposed to do. Is it the
case that you have one or more apps in mind that you'd like to install, but
you can't because there isn't enough space available? If that's the case, I
don't think I would call it useless.

Hi Paul,
You are exactly right.

The phone is actually a fine phone, out of the box, for anyone who doesn't
wish to install any more than a total of 600 MB of applications (and their
data).

However, if the user wishes to install more than 600MB of applications
(and their data, such as offline maps), then the phone will not allow
that to happen.

So, it's useless (to me), from my standpoint, since I had *assumed*
that I could augment the admittedly puny 4GB of internal storage with
the 32 GB microSD card.

It turns out that this is, in effect, a 600MB (internal storage for
apps) phone.

Had I known that, I never would have purchased the phone.

I keep beating my head against the wall, chastising myself for buying
the thing. It's my fault. I do agree. I was stupid. I agree. I'm an
idiot for buying this phone because I *thought* the sd card would hold
apps (it did for my Gingerbread Android phone, for example).

My key question is HOW do you guys seem to inherently *know* that the
sd card can't hold apps?

I always thought it did?
How did *you* know that it didn't?

Note: The carrier never told me this until it was too late.

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:30:08 -0500, Paul Miner wrote:

Another example from that era: Commodore 64, 64KB of memory, but when you
turn it on, it says "Commodore 64 Basic V2 38911 Basic Bytes Free". As
above, you could get to some of the additional memory through paging, but
I'm sure it was beyond most people at the time.

Hi Paul,

Along those lines, it's currently beyond my capabilities, but, I may have
to root the 4GB phone (not that I really know what that entails) in order
to free up some of the 3.4 GB that is currently being used by the T-Mobile
Android 4.1.2, P76920h, LG Optimus L9 smartphone (model LG-P769).

Googling, I see that the rooting process is risky; but, if I faithfully
follow it, do you have any idea of what I can reasonably expect by way
of gains?

That is, can I only hope to free up 10 MB of memory? 20MB? 100MB? 1GB?

QUESTION:
If I root the phone, what can I reasonably expect to free up?

 

[Paul Miner]

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 11:49:16 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D." <dannyd@is.invalid>
wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 03:01:39 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

From my experience of the Android platform on phones, you won't find it is
much different from your experience with the T-Mobile phone, right across
the board.

I think the "problem" is that the "little lie" becomes a "big lie" the
closer your internal memory gets to 4GB.

For example, if they lie by 4GB in a 32GB phone, you still have a usable
28GB of "usable" memory.

Likewise, if they lie by 4GB in a 16GB or even 8GB phone, you still have
a usable 12GB and 4GB respectively.

But, if they lie by 4GB in a 4GB phone, you end up with a useless phone.

Can you expand a bit on why you feel that the phone is useless? Surely it
works as advertised, able to do everything it's supposed to do. Is it the
case that you have one or more apps in mind that you'd like to install, but
you can't because there isn't enough space available? If that's the case, I
don't think I would call it useless.

--
Paul Miner

 

[Paul Miner]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 09:24:32 -0400, TJ <TJ@noneofyour.business> wrote:

Be aware that you aren't just taking on T-Mobile with this complaint.
You are taking on the entire computer industry. And the computer
industry has been doing this for a very long time. One of my first
computers, back in the mid-80's, was an Atari 800XL. It was advertised
as having 64K of RAM. It did, but only 48K was usable without special
manipulation which most users didn't know how to do. After a while, I
bought an aftermarket kit that boosted the RAM to 256K. I KNOW it had
256K, as I installed the chips myself. Even so, the new memory was only
available in 16K blocks and one at a time, through the same manipulation
used to access any more than the basic 48K.

Was it fraud to say I had a 256K computer when only 48K was easily
available? I didn't think so, because the full 256K was *usable*. It
just wasn't easy.

Another example from that era: Commodore 64, 64KB of memory, but when you
turn it on, it says "Commodore 64 Basic V2 38911 Basic Bytes Free". As
above, you could get to some of the additional memory through paging, but
I'm sure it was beyond most people at the time.

--
Paul Miner

 

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 20:18:59 -0400, tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net>
wrote:

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:55:13 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Well, they *do* have 4 GB of internal memory. And they use 'most all of it.

And they *can* use "up to a 32 GB external microsd card." Just not for
anything your little heart desires -- rather, only for what the OEM allows.

No lies there -- just truth, but rather less than the *whole* truth .

Cheers, -- tlvp

And why no whining about RAM? My first smartphone had 4GB storage and
512MB RAM. The problem with it was the limited RAM, maiking you stop
applications to run others.

You have to assess your needs, do your homework , and make the
decision.

caveat emptor

 

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 20:02:53 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd@is.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:25:37 -0500, Paul Miner wrote:

Can you expand a bit on why you feel that the phone is useless? Surely it
works as advertised, able to do everything it's supposed to do. Is it the
case that you have one or more apps in mind that you'd like to install, but
you can't because there isn't enough space available? If that's the case, I
don't think I would call it useless.

Hi Paul,
You are exactly right.

The phone is actually a fine phone, out of the box, for anyone who doesn't
wish to install any more than a total of 600 MB of applications (and their
data).

However, if the user wishes to install more than 600MB of applications
(and their data, such as offline maps), then the phone will not allow
that to happen.

So, it's useless (to me), from my standpoint, since I had *assumed*
that I could augment the admittedly puny 4GB of internal storage with
the 32 GB microSD card.

It turns out that this is, in effect, a 600MB (internal storage for
apps) phone.

Had I known that, I never would have purchased the phone.

I keep beating my head against the wall, chastising myself for buying
the thing. It's my fault. I do agree. I was stupid. I agree. I'm an
idiot for buying this phone because I *thought* the sd card would hold
apps (it did for my Gingerbread Android phone, for example).

My key question is HOW do you guys seem to inherently *know* that the
sd card can't hold apps?

We don't, but doing your research will find it.

I always thought it did?
How did *you* know that it didn't?

Note: The carrier never told me this until it was too late.

600MB provides a reasonable amount of space for apps. Wanting to
store content, like offline maps, will eat space faster. Google Play
shows the size of apps so you can estimate what the app uses of
storage. My apps use over 2GB but there are about 200 of them on my
phone. The people ate T-Mobile are sales people, and T-Mobile is a
marketing company not a technology company.

 

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 18:34:12 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd@is.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 09:24:32 -0400, TJ wrote:

Judging by that, I'd say that if the company reps said "usable" memory,
you haven't a leg to stand on. The memory on the phone is *usable." You
use it every time you turn the phone on. It's usefulness may be limited,
but that's different from "unusable." That's what the lawyers would
argue, anyway.

I do agree with you. I think my complaint won't carry much weight with
either the FTC or the FCC unless (and this is the biggie), unless I'm
not alone in considering this deceptive advertising.

For example, if hundreds or thousands of consumers complain with the same
complaint of deceptive advertising, then the FTC and/or FCC, I think,
would take it seriously.

If I'm the only one who is complaining of deceptive advertising, then,
I'm simply the one fool in the crowd who fell for it.

It's no different than when people complain about an automotive defect
or an advertising scam. If enough people complain about deceptive
advertising, the FTC and/or FCC will listen.

One complaint is just one disgruntled consumer.

HINT: If you feel like complaining, you get 1,000 characters on the
online FCC complaint form & 3,000 characters on the online FTC form:
FCC 888-225-5322 http://www.fcc.gov/complaints (deceptive advertising)
FTC 877-382-4357 https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details#crnt

It's less deceptive advertising than the failure to do your research.
You will get nowhere with regulators on this.

Education is expensive.

 

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 20:09:39 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd@is.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:30:08 -0500, Paul Miner wrote:

Another example from that era: Commodore 64, 64KB of memory, but when you
turn it on, it says "Commodore 64 Basic V2 38911 Basic Bytes Free". As
above, you could get to some of the additional memory through paging, but
I'm sure it was beyond most people at the time.

Hi Paul,

Along those lines, it's currently beyond my capabilities, but, I may have
to root the 4GB phone (not that I really know what that entails) in order
to free up some of the 3.4 GB that is currently being used by the T-Mobile
Android 4.1.2, P76920h, LG Optimus L9 smartphone (model LG-P769).

Googling, I see that the rooting process is risky; but, if I faithfully
follow it, do you have any idea of what I can reasonably expect by way
of gains?

That is, can I only hope to free up 10 MB of memory? 20MB? 100MB? 1GB?

QUESTION:
If I root the phone, what can I reasonably expect to free up?

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2439667

The same site has a forum for the L9. People there can tell you
whatever you want to know.

 

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 19:15:38 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd@is.invalid> wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 11:44:48 -0400, TJ wrote:

He wants to move apps to his external card, mostly bloatware installed
as part of the system by T-Mobile, and the OS won't let him do so. So,
because he can't use it the way he wants to use it, he has declared it
"useless."

This is correct, but I would also like to clarify:

I had bought the phone *assuming* I could augment the puny 4GB internal
ROM with a cheap $30 class-10 32GB external micro-SD card.

However, apparently Google has disabled the ability to MOVE applications
to the external SD card and they have disabled the ability to DOWNLOAD
applications TO the SD card, in Android versions after Ice Cream Sandwich
(according to Leyda at LG Mobile Communications 800-243-0000).

LG tells me they don't install anything, so, it's T-Mobile who puts on
the operating system and the pre-installed apps. The operating system
plus the pre-installed (non-removable) apps takes up all but 600MB of
the internal memory, out of the box.

Had I known this was, in effect, a 600MB phone, even with a 32GB
external memory card, I would never have purchased the phone.

You can call me stupid, but, it wasn't obvious to me that the SD card
slot was nearly useless, since you apparently can't install apps on the
SD card.

With only 600MB available, in toto, for apps, the phone becomes almost
wholly useless as a "smart" phone (IMHO).

To be clear, it's fine as a voice phone; but it's nearly useless as a
smart phone, IMHO, because it only allows a paltry 600MB of apps.

My mistake was in believing that I could augment the admittedly puny
4GB of internal memory with the 32GB card. I believe the reviews and
the carrier should have told me that the phone has only 600 MB of
storage space for apps, since there is absolutely no way anyone could
know this ahead of time.

That last point is critical.

There is no way you can know this information without both having
the phone in your hands, and in adding your Google Play account
so that you can try to download apps. Only *after* you've downloaded
600 MB of apps will you realize that the stated 1.8 GB of "usable
memory" that the OS reports is a bold-faced lie.

Since it's impossible to know the true available memory (of 600 MB)
without owning the phone yourself, I believe the carrier should have
told me this information when I asked them about the "usable" memory.

While you can call me an idiot for thinking that the phone had
anything more than 600 MB of "usable memory", does my argument at
least make sense to you?

Only a little and it's wearing thin.

That is, would YOU have been similarly deceived or did you know,
from the start, that the 4GB phone is really only a 600MB phone?

(i.e., am I the only idiot out there who was fooled?)

 

[TJ]

On 04/05/2014 02:34 PM, Danny D. wrote:

One complaint is just one disgruntled consumer.

HINT: If you feel like complaining, you get 1,000 characters on the
online FCC complaint form & 3,000 characters on the online FTC form:
FCC 888-225-5322 http://www.fcc.gov/complaints (deceptive advertising)
FTC 877-382-4357 https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details#crnt

I have nothing to complain about. I knew the "full" capacity of the
internal storage wasn't available for my use, just as the "full"
capacity of my computer's hard drives aren't available. I've known it
for decades.

TJ

 

[tlvp]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 14:54:21 -0700, nobody@nada.com wrote:

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 20:18:59 -0400, tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net
wrote:

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:55:13 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Well, they *do* have 4 GB of internal memory. And they use 'most all of it.

And they *can* use "up to a 32 GB external microsd card." Just not for
anything your little heart desires -- rather, only for what the OEM allows.

No lies there -- just truth, but rather less than the *whole* truth .

Cheers, -- tlvp

And why no whining about RAM?

'Cuz I'm not the one whining in the first place .

> caveat emptor

Amen! Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.