Why do these GFCI receptacles trip?

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

 

[KenW]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:28:25 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

Age and cheap brand.


KenW

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

FULL STOP.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

FULL STOP.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Thanks Peter,
I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.
Eric

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.

This explains what might be happening and how to troubleshoot it:
<https://www.fluke.com/en-au/learn/blog/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips-in-gfci-protected-circuits>
<https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-369-fc>
<https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-368-fc>

Duz the house have aluminum wiring? I've seen similar problems caused
by aluminum wiring at a friends house:
<https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=199901>
We traced the problem down to loose screws on the wall outlets and GFI
receptacles. Tightening everything down make the false trips
disappear for about 6 months, when they came back from the dead
initially on anything that drew high current. The owner then
tightened down the screws again, which again fixed the problem for a
few months. I think you can see where this is going. The aluminum
wires were being squashed by the brass screw and cold flowing until
flat with the added bonus of some galvanic corrosion in the bath and
laundry rooms. In the end, he installed copper wire pigtails and
anti-oxidation goop on all the outlets, which I think finally solved
the problem:
<https://ask-the-electrician.com/gfci-outlets-and-aluminum-wire/>
<https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/291/whats-the-best-way-of-replacing-a-plug-or-switch-in-a-house-with-aluminum-wirin>




--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.

Whatever the code says, if your house was built 10 years ago then whatever the code said then goes, or at least you can make go.

If it has a 3 prong plug and you have a properly grounded outlet you don't need it. You are not required to update except in certain cases. Just make sure the ground connections are tight.

May not quite be code but it solves the problem once and for all, and as long as those grounds are good, you will not die. Make SURE.

I read a bit and it does appear there is a little wiggle room on it, and then they say a whole 60 people died from electrical shocks last year. And then so many by fires, many more in fact. A GFCI does not protect against fires, only ground faults.

After you put regular outlets in for your 3 prong grounded appliances that have motors, do nothing. However I am not so sure about if you use those clippers in front of a sink. Too many other things can be plugged in there and the clippers are not usually 3 prong grounded, that one might have to say and either put up with it or try a newer GFCI. In that case I DO NOT recommend offing the GFCI. In fact not at all, it will solve the problem though.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

>Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.

"Does Your Washing Machine Require GFCI Protection"
<https://ask-the-electrician.com/does-your-washing-machine-require-gfci-protection/>
The washing machine outlet itself does not require a GFCI
outlet, however any outlet within 6 feet of the outside
edge of the sink in laundry rooms require that it be GFCI
protected.

More detail:
"Do washing machines require GFCI protection?"
<https://iaeimagazine.org/magazine/2012/05/16/do-washing-machines-require-gfci-protection/>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <165a5622-af21-4dec-a265-cf8dc7ba67e4@googlegroups.com>,
jurb6006@gmail.com says...

Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.

Ground faults are not used on things that must run such as refrigerators
and freezers. If they trip for some reason you can loose all your
stored food. I think there is a code that covers that.

 

On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.


NT

 

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 3:09:50 PM UTC-4, pf...@aol.com wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

Ha ha, 'wonkiness'.

 

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:05:42 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.

This explains what might be happening and how to troubleshoot it:
https://www.fluke.com/en-au/learn/blog/grounding/chasing-ghost-trips-in-gfci-protected-circuits
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-369-fc
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/clamp-meters/fluke-368-fc

Duz the house have aluminum wiring? I've seen similar problems caused
by aluminum wiring at a friends house:
https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=199901
We traced the problem down to loose screws on the wall outlets and GFI
receptacles. Tightening everything down make the false trips
disappear for about 6 months, when they came back from the dead
initially on anything that drew high current. The owner then
tightened down the screws again, which again fixed the problem for a
few months. I think you can see where this is going. The aluminum
wires were being squashed by the brass screw and cold flowing until
flat with the added bonus of some galvanic corrosion in the bath and
laundry rooms. In the end, he installed copper wire pigtails and
anti-oxidation goop on all the outlets, which I think finally solved
the problem:
https://ask-the-electrician.com/gfci-outlets-and-aluminum-wire/
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/291/whats-the-best-way-of-replacing-a-plug-or-switch-in-a-house-with-aluminum-wirin

Thanks for the links Jeff. The house is only about ten years old and
was built for us and we are the only people who have ever lived in the
house. So I know the history of the house which helps. I'll check out
those links today.
Eric

 

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:08:06 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

Don't use them on washing machines, dryers or refrigerators.

Whatever the code says, if your house was built 10 years ago then whatever the code said then goes, or at least you can make go.

If it has a 3 prong plug and you have a properly grounded outlet you don't need it. You are not required to update except in certain cases. Just make sure the ground connections are tight.

May not quite be code but it solves the problem once and for all, and as long as those grounds are good, you will not die. Make SURE.

I read a bit and it does appear there is a little wiggle room on it, and then they say a whole 60 people died from electrical shocks last year. And then so many by fires, many more in fact. A GFCI does not protect against fires, only ground faults.

After you put regular outlets in for your 3 prong grounded appliances that have motors, do nothing. However I am not so sure about if you use those clippers in front of a sink. Too many other things can be plugged in there and the clippers are not usually 3 prong grounded, that one might have to say and either put up with it or try a newer GFCI. In that case I DO NOT recommend offing the GFCI. In fact not at all, it will solve the problem though.

The clippers are used in the bathroom so I will need to get that GFCI
sorted out. Even if it means buying rechargeable clippers. The
basement GFCI is also near a sink. But even if I put in another non
GFCI receptacle away from the sink it will need to be connected to the
same wires that feed the GFCI. I wonder if the wiring in the new
receptacle before the GFCI will prevent tripping? In any case I am
going to change out my old GFCIs in at least two places.
Eric

 

>"The basement GFCI is also near a sink."

Between the washer hoses and cord you might be able get 6 feet away. Not so sure that would satisfy code because there is still water in the washer. However, do you need a GFCI where there might be a bucket of water ? What about if your garden hose is long enough and you decide to use it to wash the basement floor ?

At least that is some kind of rationale, if you do that make SURE that ground wire is tight.

Not so in the bathroom. Perhaps one of those strips audiophiles use to keep RF out of their stereos. The filtering should work both ways. If a new GFCI there doesn't help that may be your only solution.

You said you kept an old washing machine around for when the new one breaks ? I suggest you never get rid of it. In this area water is pretty cheap and I have no use for a washing machine with a microprocessor and inferior relays and valves, and probably plastic parts that should not be plastic. In other areas water is much more expensive and it may be worth it for them.

One thing about older dryers - on ours the door is pretty stout and opens down. That means you can just throw the clothes over, walk over and scoop them in a couple of times. If it opens to the side you have to get a basket, probably the same one your dirty clothes came in, put the WET clothes in there which is when they'll pick up the maximum dirt, carry the basket, possibly around the door if it opens the wrong way for the layout of your basement, and then put in only how much fits in your hand scoop by scoop.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

OK - let's cut to the chase:

GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given.

What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line. If they detect this condition of more than a very, very few MA, they trip. Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. This despite sincere and touching wishes otherwise.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty. What the device is doing is getting current from the hot side and sending it somewhere else but the neutral.

One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices. Often this will cause false-trips, especially with motors.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.

If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

OK - let's cut to the chase:

GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given.

What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line. If they detect this condition of more than a very, very few MA, they trip. Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. This despite sincere and touching wishes otherwise.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty. What the device is doing is getting current from the hot side and sending it somewhere else but the neutral.

One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices. Often this will cause false-trips, especially with motors.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.

If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

The clipper is a double insulated device and so only has two wires in
the cord. Where does the current go? It doesn't matter which way the
cord is plugged. It is not a polarized plug so I have tried both ways.
Still, almost always when the clipper is turned off the GFCI trips.
Could this be from back EMF from the motor winding? A power surge when
the magnetic field collapses? I have looked some online for the answer
and haven't found it yet.
Thanks,
Eric

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 7/24/18 12:32 PM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device
is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety
device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to
correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

And yet, we have people posting here, that consistently
prove you can't fix stupid.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 2:01:42 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
A power surge when
> the magnetic field collapses?

Very likely this. Old-style electric clippers do not use motors per-se (things that spin around). They use what is, effectively, a buzzer that switches the electric field around a magnet pulling it back and forth. When the field collapses, the magnet induces feedback, and will trip some GFCI devices..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwit26ixrLjcAhUFX60KHUWSAMoQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgetdrawings.com%2Fhair-clipper-drawing&psig=AOvVaw0kOEmGwhfydJmjQ66uOJBE&ust=1532542641709432

Just for giggles, try turning over the plug in the receptacle (unless it is polarized). It may be that the pulse is going down the neutral line and is thereby seen as spurious by the GFCI.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <cdqeldpj8l17gi1sc5kjcg98i6g1t0lsg5@4ax.com>,
<etpm@whidbey.com> wrote:

The clipper is a double insulated device and so only has two wires in
the cord. Where does the current go? It doesn't matter which way the
cord is plugged. It is not a polarized plug so I have tried both ways.
Still, almost always when the clipper is turned off the GFCI trips.
Could this be from back EMF from the motor winding? A power surge when
the magnetic field collapses? I have looked some online for the answer
and haven't found it yet.

Here's the explanation I read, quite some time ago. It still makes
sense to me.

A GFCI tries to accurately measure the imbalance in the current flow
between the hot and neutral wires, and trip the breaker if a
significant imbalance appears. The imbalance would (goes the
thinking) exist if and only if there's a current leak from hot, to
ground (bypassing the neutral return).

GFCI balance sensors are not perfect. They usually consist of
something like a toroidal transformer, with the hot and neutral wires
forming one winding, and a sense winding forming the other. Any
imbalance between the hot and neutral wire current flows would induce
a current in the sense winding, while (in principle) perfectly
balanced and opposed hot/neutral currents would result in no net
magnetic flux and thus no current induced in the sense winding.

The balance of these toroidal transformers is necessarily imperfect.
The hot and neutral wire paths aren't identical, sometimes one is
wound a bit more tightly than the other, and they aren't the identical
distance away from the sense winding. Hence, there's some difference
in inductive coupling within the transformer, and some difference in
capacitive coupling between the two "balanced" wires, and the sense
winding.

This imbalance tends to be worse at high frequencies where e.g. the
difference in capacitive coupling makes a difference.

When a motor-operated device is switched off, and creates a switching
arc due to inductive "kickback", the arc creates a burst of
high-frequency energy (easily covering the AM band and sometimes going
up to VHF). Even if the hot and neutral currents are perfectly
balanced (and they may not be - there might be some capacitive
coupling between the device and the operator's hand) the less-than-
perfect balance in the current sensor can allow a small blip of
current to be induced in the sense winding... and this can trip the
GFCI.

If the device contains a snubber, this may not happen. A GFCI with a
snubber/EMI filter at its output (and I suspect that some of these do
exist) would be less vulnerable to this sort of false trip.

 

[Chuck]

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700, etpm@whidbey.com wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:09:48 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com"
peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 2:22:39 PM UTC-4, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand.

GFCI devices have a service life of about ten (10) years in a dry location, and anywhere from 2-5 years in a damp location. In many cases, their effectiveness as a ground-fault devices is long-gone, whereas they will still function (somewhat) as a normal breaker. There are exceptions - see monthly test below.

Yes, DO test them every month as suggested.
YES, DO replace them IMMEDIATELY the moment they display any sort of wonkiness.

FULL STOP.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Thanks Peter,
I do test most of the GFCI receptacles monthly. They always pass. So
I'll replace the two and see what happens.
Eric

I just replaced the GFCI outlets in my house. I had a problem with
triggering for no apparent reason with new GE ones. Replaced these
with Levitons and haven't had one trigger randomly. The washing
machine is connected to one and the electric lawnmower is connected to
another.

 

"And yet, we have people posting here, that consistently
prove you can't fix stupid."

So send the guy a check so he can afford to be safe. As him how much. If you send it somehow through a non-profit organization you can deduct it off your adjusted income.