Why do these GFCI receptacles trip?

>"GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given. "

You mean inconvenience like going to work in stinky clothes or having all your food spoil because you can't afford a new refrigerator ? "Inconveniences" like that ? i do not disagree, but there are times when the risk is just so insignificant it is not worth the bullshit. And the washer is even worse than the bathroom. In most bathrooms the floor is nowhere near and effective ground. The sink and tub, even if connected by copper and cast iron (some still is) almost all of them use like a whip like a condensing unit, plastic and non conductive. Unless you have really hard water the water itself would not be too much of a problem. It does not conduct all that well, the salts etc. in it do and they get there from what is on your skin when it gets wet. You may not agree, but I think it is fine not to wear a seatbelt and to turn off the air bags if you feel like it. Unless someone owns you.

Then there are statistics. How many lives have air bags saved if the person is wearing a seatbelt ? Close to zero and even then they might just hit the windshield. I just read about the newer requirement for arc proof breakers and the site cites how many1 people have been electrocuted but it doesn't say how many would have been saved by an arc proof breaker. This is more like the best advertising in the world, FORCE them to buy it. I see things done now with newer style devices and splices that i think should be against code. Are they ? Nope. Like that newfangled Teflon tape, it MAKES tapered thread fittings on pipes leak and I got proof. At the DIY they tell you it is code but it is not.

>"What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line."

As well as the opposite. That is why they cannot share a neutral except under certain conditions.

>"Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. "

Yes they will. that is the idea except for the "deliberately" part. you think they are worried about the electric meter not detecting the current through the neutral and not charging you for it ? News flash, the neutral does not even go through the meter. It doesn't have to, no matter where the current from the hot(s) go(es) it registers.

When any part of that current goes anywhere else it trips. It is set to the almost lethal range I think. At least top where muscle contraction would make it impossible for someone to let go.

>"A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge. "

And just what do you propose to remedy that ? Just don't use it and sell it to someone in another country, oh wait, it probably won't be compatible with their power. So I guess just throw it out and do without your lathe, milling machine, planer, jointer, bandsaw, just throw it all in the garbage. OK.

>"If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping. "

Are you about to take on advising people how to do that on everything ? Will you also tell them to scrap that 1957 Chevy that's worth $ 35,000 because it doesn't have an air bag ? I live in the real world, do you ?

"Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather. "

So you are claiming you are the smartest which means you hit 192 on an IQ test, rewired 20 houses and satisfied the most strict inspectors in town ?

Well then I will put out an ad for you for giving free advice.

The washer here is not on a GFCI and I will go down to the uncovered floor in the basement and load the washer in my bare feet. And I will not put my bench on a GFCI. And nothing in the garage is going on a GFCI.

The point is that not everyone can have everything just perfect.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Tuesday, July 24, 2018 at 4:17:35 PM UTC-4, Terry Schwartz wrote:

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.


I beg to differ. Other responses are not necessarily stupid nor blather. There are additional valuable points to be made that you did not include.

In every case in our house, we will use a GFCI breaker.

We are willing to pay the freight to achieve that double-duty function.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Terry Schwartz]

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

I beg to differ. Other responses are not necessarily stupid nor blather. There are additional valuable points to be made that you did not include.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.

Again, I beg to differ. A GFCI is is not by design a circuit breaker. It does not respond to sustained circuit overload conditions in a manner that protects house wiring -- which is exactly what a breaker is intended to do. Prevent fires.

A friend recently called me, mystified, asking why the GFCI he'd just installed was not tripping under a 30+ amp load, it was a 15 amp GFCI. I told him..... it's not a breaker. It's designed to protect humans from shocks, not fires. In this case, I expect the eventual failure mode would have been overheated wiring resulting in a fire somewhere in the circuit.... not necessarily the GFCI.

My friend was trying to create a protected sub circuit in a garage, where there was no access to the breaker, because it was in the house. I instructed him to install a sub panel with breakers and GFCIs in the outlets -- or use GFCI breakers. An expensive option.

Will some GFCIs trip (as per this thread) from momentary overloads? Yes, because switching inductive loads create a brief imbalance in the neutral. Signals out of phase, so to speak. Not from over current. Most will happily supply excess current if the rest of the house circuit allows.

Typically, a long wire run to a motor, an extension cord for example, will aggravate the imbalance, adding inductance.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty

Again, I beg to differ. Nuisance trips are NOT necessarily indicative of a defective device. There are various motor start and stop conditions that can cause an imbalance (loading, inductance, stalls, voltage drop, even temperature).

GFCIs do fail in-elegantly. Some will refuse to trip. Others will trip too often, even under non imbalanced conditions. Better quality GFCIs will hold up longer and fail to safety -- tripping too often rather than not at all..

Terry

 

[Allodoxaphobia]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at
relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on
arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or
substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.

In a previous residence I had an "outside" GFCI trip when using an
electrice lawn mower --- when the mower was plugged into the
still-coiled 75 foot extension cord (... about a 3 foot diameter coil).
Uncoil the extension cord and it ran Just Fine. The inductive kick of
turning on the motor was enough to "do it".

Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | Marvin | W3DHJ.net | linux
38.238N 104.547W | @ jonz.net | Jonesy | FreeBSD
* Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm

 

>"When the field collapses, the magnet induces feedback, and will trip some GFCI devices. "

Then GFCIs should be designed with HF suppression in the detection coil circuit.

 

"Replaced these
with Levitons "

One good solution. Stick with Leviton.

 

>"The balance of these toroidal transformers is necessarily imperfect. "

That is what makes them trip fist at like 20 amps, give or take. Worls well except for certain motors that only take more for a part of a second to start.

Square D QO series breakers use a scheme something like that without the nulling effect. They also have thermal which operates more slowly, trying to actually approximate the temperature of the wire. they are about the best that can be had as far as I know.

 

"And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid. "

You send me the money and I will upgrade this house in every way you prescribe, oh great one.

Or don't you care ? Coe on, how can you not care when you are in here with your golden (costing) advice ? Everyone must be safe. What about caring for others ? Why are you here calling people stupid when you have no better plan to offer ? In fact NO PLAN to offer ? In fact what have you EVER contributed here ?

All you do is bitch about other people, are you a cunt ?

 

>"Truthfully, you'd be better off paying for arc-fault breakers. "

Let him pay the freight.

In one bedroom we got a lamp, an overhead light and a litterbox. I know how dangerous those litterboxes can be.

In another we got a window AC unit, an unplugged older PC, a TV and a convertor box.

Here's the biggie, in my bedroom I got an old CRT TV (with the best friggin color rendition I have seen in a ong time that NO LCD could ever match), a convertor box, a VCR, an amplifier of about 15 WPC and a Pioneer SG-9500 EQ so I can understand almost half of their shit that sounds like it is coming through a series of paper towel tubes.

Yeah, all that is about to arc out. Who knows, I might decide to shoot up the place. Oh wait, I am not on any psychotropic drugs, nor need them.

You know, those damn internal connections from the power cord are only like an inch or two apart, and you know how 120 volts can all the sudden arc across that.

Oh wait. It doesn't.

And of course the wet bar, oh wait, no wet bar. I guess I will have to put one in. It's nearly 10 feet to the kitchen. And aa small fridge, well those are always arcing over. Right ? Didn't that kill like thousands of people every year ?

Oh wait, that was medical mistakes that killed 250,000 people a year. I think if you jump out every breaker and fuse in your house you are ore safe than if you are in the hospital. And this is the AMA's own figures. Look it up.

So if you DO get a severe electric shock, seems to me you are better off writhing on the ground and moaning until it passes rather than calling 911.

The odds are better.

 

>"In every case in our house, we will use a GFCI breaker. "

For attic lights when there are no outlets ? OK then, that is your prerogative.

>"We are willing to pay the freight to achieve that double-duty function. "

You have every right to do so. You have every right to put roll cages and five point restraints in your cars. You have every right to buy only saws that have that protection for if you touch the blade it stops in microseconds.

But not to do such things by 21;37:11 tonight because they might DIE at 21:38:45 tonight does not mean they are stupid.

 

>"My friend was trying to create a protected sub circuit in a garage, where there was no access to the breaker, because it was in the house. I instructed him to install a sub panel with breakers and GFCIs in the outlets -- or use GFCI breakers. An expensive option. "

Not all that bad really, unless you don't know where to get the stuff. I little 6 position MLO might only be $ 30, one 240 V GFCI, that's expensive. thing is, if there was no wiring in the garage before, they want to see arc proof. Whether that is actually law is debatable, but the GFCI breakers can be as low as like $ 15. (regular breakers are inder $ 10) so 3 of them and one 240, that meets the requirement of five moves or less to shut down the building. (but not if it is an attached garage, then you got no problems as long as there is a main breaker at the mains coming in, if you run separate SERVICE that is different and I have known people to do that, they painted cars and had a huge compressor)

 

>"Again, I beg to differ. A GFCI is is not by design a circuit breaker."

Take it to about a 45 amp load for 30 mS and most will trip.

But in general, you are correct. Overcurrent protection is not their primary function.

 

>"One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices."

I missed that, thinking someone else posted it. Many GFCI outlets had outputs on the back to be sent to other outlets that would be also protected. I did break code one time to void a serious shitload of work on a prequoted job. It was to protect over the counter lighting in the kitchen.

In the 1990s i became against code to use the device for the splice, so all those outputs on the back became useless, the only code option was to run a GFCI breaker in the box. If you had seen the job you would have done the same thing. And there was no changing the plan or the price. We, well the boss of the job didn't even set the price, the customer said "I have this much money". Leaving his kitchen half apart would have resulted in a lawsuit..

Nothing is dangerous, the spirit of the code saying the device can't be the splice was because it could complicate replacing the device.

To everyone here, when you have been there and done as much as I have then you can tell me. And again, the strictest inspectors in town. They find out I did it they might not even inspect. I still always expect it, and I think that if someone gets killed because of your wiring you should go to jail.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 7/24/18 3:33 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
[ His usual anti-government anti-regulation
conspiracy nonsense. ]

And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Terry Schwartz]

Truthfully, you'd be better off paying for arc-fault breakers. They provide a level of safety against arcing that is likely to cause a fire. The human risk is greater than shock. And certainly GFCI functionality is NOT needed in every circuit in your home. Add the GFCIs where the local risk of shock warrants the installation.

In every case in our house, we will use a GFCI breaker.

We are willing to pay the freight to achieve that double-duty function.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

"And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid. "

Are you nothing but a cunt or are you gong to send the OPer and me a check so we can be safe ?

I bet you are deathly afraid of many things.

 

[Fox's Mercantile]

On 7/24/18 4:31 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

"And here we have proof of what I said about
you can't fix stupid. "
In fact what have you EVER contributed here ?

All you do is bitch about other people, are you a cunt ?

I may be a cunt, but I'm not an ignorant cunt.
I don't constantly boast about how I "get away with" nor
do I find imaginary boogeymen hiding under every rock.

I know what I am capable of doing and doing well. I don't
need to constantly mouth off about how clever I am.

So go fuck yourself.



--
"I am a river to my people."
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 21:45:48 UTC+1, Terry Schwartz wrote:

> Truthfully, you'd be better off paying for arc-fault breakers. They provide a level of safety against arcing that is likely to cause a fire. The human risk is greater than shock. And certainly GFCI functionality is NOT needed in every circuit in your home. Add the GFCIs where the local risk of shock warrants the installation.

UK now requires gfci protection (at the panel) on all domestic circuits. So when smoke particles land on the fire alarm mains supply wiring, the fire alarm loses its power. Great eh.


NT

 

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 18:32:23 UTC+1, pf...@aol.com wrote:

OK - let's cut to the chase:

GFCI devices are designed to save lives under specific conditions. Under those same conditions, they can be inconvenient. That is a given.

What they do: They detect current flowing from the hot line, and not returning via the neutral line. If they detect this condition of more than a very, very few MA, they trip. Meaning that they WILL NOT protect anyone deliberately inserting themselves into a circuit. This despite sincere and touching wishes otherwise.

Some devices will trip a GFCI pretty much most of the time. However, that this happens DOES NOT make the GFCI device faulty. It makes the device faulty. What the device is doing is getting current from the hot side and sending it somewhere else but the neutral.

One should not (in some cases, cannot) cascade GFCI devices. Often this will cause false-trips, especially with motors.

A GFCI is also an ultra-fast circuit breaker. Meaning that older motors that commonly will not trip a regular breaker will often trip a GFCI, yet not be defective - this due to the momentary turn-on surge.

If a properly installed, properly functioning GFCI device is tripping - it is for a reason. As it is a life-safety device, the point of all this is not to defeat it, but to correct the reason for the tripping.

Any other response is stupid.
Any other advice is blather.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

unfortunately that's incorrect on several points.

 

On 24 Jul 2018 19:49:43 GMT, Allodoxaphobia
<knock_yourself_out@example.net> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jul 2018 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, 23 July 2018 19:22:39 UTC+1, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

In my 10 year old home I am having trouble with a couple GFCI
receptacles. But I think the problem is probably with every one in the
house, as they are all the same age and brand. In the bathroom when I
turn off the hair clippers I use for beard trimming the GFCI almost
always trips. But only when the clippers are being turned off.
In the basement we have an twenty year old washing machine that we
kept to use in case the upstairs new washer needed repair, which has
ben more than once. When the washer changes cycles it will randomely
trip the GFCI. Like the upstairs GFCI it only happens when the load is
removed from the GFCI. For example, the water valve solenoids, when
switched off by the washer, will cause the GFCI to trip. Or when the
washer motor is turned off when it changes speed.
Do I need to buy better GFCI receptacles? Or is this just because
the things are generally so sensitive to arcing when a contact opens
that any brand will show the same behavior/
Thanks,
Eric

We had a thread on this very recently in sed. GFCIs are unbalanced at
relatively high frequencies, the result being they tend to trip on
arcing. Of course that doesn't rule out your GFCIs being faulty or
substandard, or your washing machine having N-E leakage.

In a previous residence I had an "outside" GFCI trip when using an
electrice lawn mower --- when the mower was plugged into the
still-coiled 75 foot extension cord (... about a 3 foot diameter coil).
Uncoil the extension cord and it ran Just Fine. The inductive kick of
turning on the motor was enough to "do it".

Jonesy

I am pretty much convinced now that it is the inductive kickback that
is causing the problem. The clipper motor is more akin to a solenoid
and I figured out that the washer is almost always tripping the GFCI
when a solenoid valve is turned off. In any case the tripping ONLY
occurs when the load is removed.
Eric