Why do EVs not use the full 3.12kW from a mains socket?...

[Tabby]

On Tuesday, 18 April 2023 at 15:39:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:59:37 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 16:09, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?

Twice the current carrying capacity for a given wire diameter provided
that the ring remains intact. Parallel resistors and all that.
If there is a break in the ring, the economical skinny wire will fry.

it doesn\'t, it\'s fine. It simply has less margin.

> I thought redundancy/safety was a selling point of the ring.

it is

That
requires fat wire.

too vague

Way cheaper than a star configuration of single cables to each socket
where everything has to go back to some common node or other.

We don\'t run a cable to each socket! One breaker feeds a bunch of
loads. I don \'t have a hundred circuit breakers.

still uses more cable & more breakers. Lots of houses here have 2 socket circuits, and it\'s no problem. New installs now get more than that.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:51:10 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:

On Tuesday, 18 April 2023 at 01:24:17 UTC+1, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam..com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.
Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw
in theory. Folk that have tested them are not impressed.

They are required by the electric code in U.S. The NFPA is VERY impressed with them.

https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Fire-causes-and-risks/Top-fire-causes/Electrical/Electrical-circuit-interrupters

They\'re called AFDD in UK, and mandatory.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:58:31 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:

On Tuesday, 18 April 2023 at 15:39:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:59:37 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 16:09, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?

Twice the current carrying capacity for a given wire diameter provided
that the ring remains intact. Parallel resistors and all that.
If there is a break in the ring, the economical skinny wire will fry.
it doesn\'t, it\'s fine. It simply has less margin.

If they allowed for a standard 2% drop in the ring branch, then a break in a ring radial will cause that to shoot to upwards of 8%, which coupled with a worst case allowable feed drop of 3% brings the ring to 11% voltage drop, worst case, which is unlikely in the typical installation. Nothing is going to \"fry.\"

It\'s the complete lack of British ability to communicate with any kind of precision that has everyone confused, even the British.

I thought redundancy/safety was a selling point of the ring.
it is

That
requires fat wire.

too vague
Way cheaper than a star configuration of single cables to each socket
where everything has to go back to some common node or other.

We don\'t run a cable to each socket! One breaker feeds a bunch of
loads. I don \'t have a hundred circuit breakers.
still uses more cable & more breakers. Lots of houses here have 2 socket circuits, and it\'s no problem. New installs now get more than that.

 

[Tabby]

On Friday, 21 April 2023 at 13:06:25 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:51:10 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 April 2023 at 01:24:17 UTC+1, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker.. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.
Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw
in theory. Folk that have tested them are not impressed.
They are required by the electric code in U.S. The NFPA is VERY impressed with them.

https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/Fire-causes-and-risks/Top-fire-causes/Electrical/Electrical-circuit-interrupters

They\'re called AFDD in UK, and mandatory.

- in most cases not required

 

[Tabby]

On Friday, 21 April 2023 at 14:16:04 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:58:31 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 April 2023 at 15:39:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:59:37 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 16:09, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix..com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?

Twice the current carrying capacity for a given wire diameter provided
that the ring remains intact. Parallel resistors and all that.
If there is a break in the ring, the economical skinny wire will fry.
it doesn\'t, it\'s fine. It simply has less margin.
If they allowed for a standard 2% drop in the ring branch, then a break in a ring radial will cause that to shoot to upwards of 8%, which coupled with a worst case allowable feed drop of 3% brings the ring to 11% voltage drop, worst case, which is unlikely in the typical installation. Nothing is going to \"fry.\"

It\'s the complete lack of British ability to communicate with any kind of precision that has everyone confused, even the British.

I don\'t think I\'ve ever seen a ring that drops 11%! If a circuit covered such a large area one would fit more than 1.

Re rings generally, I do notice that foreginers of all sorts seem to have a lot of confustion over rings, so do many brits. Despite their advantages the UK is afaik the only place that uses them.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 7:15:18 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:

On Friday, 21 April 2023 at 14:16:04 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 6:58:31 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 April 2023 at 15:39:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:59:37 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 16:09, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?

Twice the current carrying capacity for a given wire diameter provided
that the ring remains intact. Parallel resistors and all that.
If there is a break in the ring, the economical skinny wire will fry.
it doesn\'t, it\'s fine. It simply has less margin.
If they allowed for a standard 2% drop in the ring branch, then a break in a ring radial will cause that to shoot to upwards of 8%, which coupled with a worst case allowable feed drop of 3% brings the ring to 11% voltage drop, worst case, which is unlikely in the typical installation. Nothing is going to \"fry.\"

It\'s the complete lack of British ability to communicate with any kind of precision that has everyone confused, even the British.
I don\'t think I\'ve ever seen a ring that drops 11%! If a circuit covered such a large area one would fit more than 1.

Well that\'s just it. The ring has the potential to reduce the branch drop by a factor of 1/4. It should be sized, either through run length limiting or wire gauge selection, to keep the voltage drop to 2%- that\'s just the drop on the ring wire. The increase to 8% only occurs upon disconnect of one of the ring radials. How that would occur I have no idea.

Re rings generally, I do notice that foreginers of all sorts seem to have a lot of confustion over rings, so do many brits. Despite their advantages the UK is afaik the only place that uses them.

I think they\'re a brilliant idea. The wiki article states they\'re used in a lot of former commonwealth possessions like Singapore and Hong Kong and maybe some others.

 

[Tabby]

On Sunday, 23 April 2023 at 10:37:51 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 7:15:18 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 21 April 2023 at 14:16:04 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:

If they allowed for a standard 2% drop in the ring branch, then a break in a ring radial will cause that to shoot to upwards of 8%, which coupled with a worst case allowable feed drop of 3% brings the ring to 11% voltage drop, worst case, which is unlikely in the typical installation. Nothing is going to \"fry.\"

It\'s the complete lack of British ability to communicate with any kind of precision that has everyone confused, even the British.
I don\'t think I\'ve ever seen a ring that drops 11%! If a circuit covered such a large area one would fit more than 1.
Well that\'s just it. The ring has the potential to reduce the branch drop by a factor of 1/4. It should be sized, either through run length limiting or wire gauge selection, to keep the voltage drop to 2%- that\'s just the drop on the ring wire. The increase to 8% only occurs upon disconnect of one of the ring radials. How that would occur I have no idea.

To get a sizeable Vdrop increase you\'d need 3 things.
1. A wiring fault.
2. An overly large circuit
3. Very heavy loading just on one end of the ring.

Ultimately if you did all this, it would be way safer than a radial with the same fault

Re rings generally, I do notice that foreginers of all sorts seem to have a lot of confustion over rings, so do many brits. Despite their advantages the UK is afaik the only place that uses them.
I think they\'re a brilliant idea. The wiki article states they\'re used in a lot of former commonwealth possessions like Singapore and Hong Kong and maybe some others.

didn\'t know that

 

[DR Records 990]

Commander Kinsey ने शुक्रवार, 14 अप्रैल 2023 को 7:27:25 pm UTC+5:30 बजे लिखा:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2..3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

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