Why do EVs not use the full 3.12kW from a mains socket?...

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 5:38:13 PM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-04-14 17:35, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 10:08:54 AM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.
I\'ll play the stright cow here. In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.

I\'m no expert in UK electrical regulations, but in other conversations, I\'m pretty sure I\'ve been told this is not the case. The reason is, in the UK, most homes are wired with a \"ring\" that can carry much more than 13 amps. So the wires and breaker are rated at higher currents. So each 13 amp load can actually draw 13 amps.

Also, in the UK, the protection device for everything plugged into an outlet, is in the device. They put a \"fuse\" in the connector itself.

Sounds pretty good to me. In conversations with brits who know about this stuff, they claim their electrical safety is much better than in the US. They don\'t seem to have a problem with tossing out the old every few decades, when they come up with something that is significantly better.
I have an old British plug here, fused. I just opened it for a check,
and the fuse is rated 13A.

With a continuous load of 13A, that fuse will blow. I don\'t know if in
hours, or days, or minutes, but it will blow.

That\'s a common misunderstanding most people have about fuses and breakers. The devices are not centered around blowing/ tripping but how much current they will pass. The 13A fuse/ breaker means it will pass 13A indefinitely. Things get complicated when time enters into the equation. Circuit protection with instantaneous trip in a house wiring application would be worthless because it wouldn\'t allow for surges, which were quite common in the day with high wattage incandescent bulbs and motors. So overload times are deliberately designed into the protection devices.

In the U.S., and I\'m sure in the UK., the circuit derating derives from plain common sense. Does anyone seriously think a house with 30x outlets at 20A each is going to need a 600A feed??? Ridiculous! There\'s some heavy derating going on there on gauging a reasonable whole house capacity, which in U..S. could be anywhere from 60-200A.

In the case of the nitwit and his EV charger, the value they settled on is what they considered the best compromise between adequate charging times and not hogging the capacity of his scantily wired house. And they didn\'t just pull that number out of a hat, it was most likely derived from pre-existing studies and surveys.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:03:26 +0100, Sylvia Else <sylvia@email.invalid> wrote:

On 14-Apr-23 11:57 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a
standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a
maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

Commonality with other 230/240V markets? The UK is unusual in having
standard sockets rated at more than 10A.

Actually, most of Europe use \"Type E\" sockets which are 16A x 220V = 3.52kW.

 

[Commander Kinsey]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 09:26:34 +0100, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 15/04/2023 02:03, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 14-Apr-23 11:57 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a
standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a
maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

Commonality with other 230/240V markets? The UK is unusual in having
standard sockets rated at more than 10A.

Although they are nominally rated at 13A modern sockets are seldom happy
with anything much beyond 10A as a continuous load. I have seen plenty
of extension sockets destroyed by having a fan heater plugged in.

That\'s because your extension was shit. I\'ve never had that happen. The only one I ever saw melted was one with two washing machines and two tumble dryers plugged in at once.

So.... see the plug on the actual fanheater, that can take 13A continuously....

In a cold room a 3kW fan heater doesn\'t switch it off until the
thermostat is satisfied which can be a few hours by which time the
plastic around the socket has melted.

At full 13A load current for an extended period plugs can also get
uncomfortably hot due to the UK having a mains fuse in them.

Only if you decide to see if you can hold onto the pins afterwards.

Short term 3kW loads are OK like kettles for a few minutes (but even
that is now deprecated all modern kettles are 2.4kW aka 10A).

BULLSHIT! Decent kettles are 3kW. A Dualit Lite for example. Why the fuck would you want to take longer to make your coffee?

> I suspect that they use less beryllium in the spring contacts

Irrelevant, it\'s the fuse which makes the heat. Can\'t they make fusewire of something which creates less heat, but melts easier? Then again, plugs used to sensibly have a little vent at the top. Probably removed for some health and softy reason.

> than they did in the old days when nominally 13A sockets were real 13A sockets.

In the old days they were 15A at 250V and had big juicy round pins, which was 3.75kW. People had hobs running off sockets.

 

[Ed Lee]

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 6:55:18 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:03:26 +0100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:

On 14-Apr-23 11:57 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a
standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a
maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

Commonality with other 230/240V markets? The UK is unusual in having
standard sockets rated at more than 10A.
Actually, most of Europe use \"Type E\" sockets which are 16A x 220V = 3.52kW.

Pointless to worry about sockets. People seldom need to charge their EV in any room, except the garage. If you are serious about EV, you should run a dedicated line from the circuit box anyway. There are much higher power charger available. For example, the Rivian charger goes up to 50A at 220V.

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 7:51:39 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 11:35:25 AM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 10:08:54 AM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.
I\'ll play the stright cow here. In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
I\'m no expert in UK electrical regulations, but in other conversations, I\'m pretty sure I\'ve been told this is not the case. The reason is, in the UK, most homes are wired with a \"ring\" that can carry much more than 13 amps. So the wires and breaker are rated at higher currents. So each 13 amp load can actually draw 13 amps.

Also, in the UK, the protection device for everything plugged into an outlet, is in the device. They put a \"fuse\" in the connector itself.

Sounds pretty good to me. In conversations with brits who know about this stuff, they claim their electrical safety is much better than in the US. They don\'t seem to have a problem with tossing out the old every few decades, when they come up with something that is significantly better.
As usual for you, you don\'t have a hint in hell what you\'re talking about, and you\'re completely wrong.

Of course the ring circuit has more capacity, it\'s nearly powering the whole damned house. So, unless they want to up the fault current tolerance of every single thing they plug into it, and thus increase the cost significantly, they have to be fused at lower current.

Which is a big fail in the US. We have 15 amp circuits and devices plugged in, which can cause fires if a short develops that passes less current than the circuit breaker, but is over the rating for the device. I\'ve never really understood the idea of letting any number of devices be plugged into a string of outlets, with any size loads. Very few people in the US have any idea what circuits their outlets are on. So plug in a heater in this room, plug in a heater in that room... all on the same circuit and the line is overloaded.

At some point it works like Green Acres!

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 11:14:53 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 6:55:18 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 02:03:26 +0100, Sylvia Else <syl...@email.invalid> wrote:

On 14-Apr-23 11:57 pm, Commander Kinsey wrote:
In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a
standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a
maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

Commonality with other 230/240V markets? The UK is unusual in having
standard sockets rated at more than 10A.
Actually, most of Europe use \"Type E\" sockets which are 16A x 220V = 3.52kW.
Pointless to worry about sockets. People seldom need to charge their EV in any room, except the garage. If you are serious about EV, you should run a dedicated line from the circuit box anyway. There are much higher power charger available. For example, the Rivian charger goes up to 50A at 220V.

You make that sound like a lot. My car will take 72 A at 240V... er, make that 277 volts. There\'s a way to get 277 volts from a three phase circuit which Tesla allowed for. Meanwhile, I ended up being happy charging from 120V, 15A outlets.

I wouldn\'t mind having a 30A, 240V circuit to charge from. It would allow the stupid off-peak charging controls to work properly... well, most of the time. They don\'t ever stop the charging, other than reaching the charge limit. You either get to start the charging when you specify, and it charges to completion, or you specify when you\'d \"like\" it to be finished, and it plans a charging start time. Neither of these actually works around the off-peak times. You have to do a bit of math for that.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Tabby]

On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.
Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S.

Correct. And most US wiring is banned by UK regs.

> For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit.

or 2. I\'ve not seen that be a problem. Bear in mind our socket circuits are mostly 240v 32A continuous, and they can run much more for short times. I can think of no reason to need more than that upstairs in the average house..

> U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.

yes.

> If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.

No, not a problem.

> Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.

It hasn\'t

> UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind,

Someone doesn\'t know much about uk housing.

actually the place is a disaster area.

?

 

[Ricky]

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:19:00 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:

On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.

Why would it be any safer? I can\'t see where it would be any cheaper, unless you don\'t have many outlets. In the US, the number of outlets is a requirement. It used to be every 6 foot, so a lamp cord could always reach an outlet. I\'ve read it is shorter now. Probably just to provide more outlets, since we have so many things to plug in these days. Fortunately, most are flea power, like phone charging, etc.

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.
Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S.
Correct. And most US wiring is banned by UK regs.

Courses for horses.

For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit.
or 2. I\'ve not seen that be a problem. Bear in mind our socket circuits are mostly 240v 32A continuous, and they can run much more for short times. I can think of no reason to need more than that upstairs in the average house.

I guess you don\'t have room air conditioning? What about space heaters? Hair irons? There are many devices that draw a lot of power. In the US, room airconditioners typically have a dedicated circuit, sometimes 240V. But then, some places in the US get hot, for real. Or muggy, for real.

U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.
yes.
If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.
No, not a problem.

The power drawn is not a function of the number of receptacles. In the US, outlets are added for convenience. Long cords can be a trip hazard and/or electrical concerns when plugged into an outlet expander. Bloggie can be a bit much sometimes.

Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.
It hasn\'t
UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind,
Someone doesn\'t know much about uk housing.
actually the place is a disaster area.
?

Bloggie likes to run off a bit. Often he is better ignored.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Martin Brown]

On 14/04/2023 22:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-04-14 17:35, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 10:08:54 AM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from
a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a
maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.
I\'ll play the stright cow here. In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.

I\'m no expert in UK electrical regulations, but in other
conversations, I\'m pretty sure I\'ve been told this is not the case.
The reason is, in the UK, most homes are wired with a \"ring\" that can
carry much more than 13 amps.  So the wires and breaker are rated at
higher currents.  So each 13 amp load can actually draw 13 amps.

Also, in the UK, the protection device for everything plugged into an
outlet, is in the device.  They put a \"fuse\" in the connector itself.

Sounds pretty good to me.  In conversations with brits who know about
this stuff, they claim their electrical safety is much better than in
the US.  They don\'t seem to have a problem with tossing out the old
every few decades, when they come up with something that is
significantly better.

I have an old British plug here, fused. I just opened it for a check,
and the fuse is rated 13A.

With a continuous load of 13A, that fuse will blow. I don\'t know if in
hours, or days, or minutes, but it will blow.

Probably more likely years although the modern socket may well melt
first. Modern ones are nowhere near as well made as the older ones were.

A typical UK 13A rated standard fuse to BS1362 will support 20A
indefinitely according to the specification! I know from bitter
experience that they will support 26A for around 3 minutes since that is
how the church tea ladies destroyed one of the VH extension leads.

A nominal 3A fuse will take nearly 5A before it blows in a fraction of a
second. The low current ones are somewhat steeper protection.

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php


The fuse is intended to protect against shorts and cable cuts they are
pretty sloppy as current limiting devices. And they get damn hot at 13+A.

Now all of our VH extension leads now have thermal cutouts so that if
you use them still all coiled up and plug in two kettles at the far end
it does not self immolate. The fuse ultimately protected but only after
the whole thing had melted internally and live touched neutral or earth.

--
Martin Brown

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-04-16 20:52, Martin Brown wrote:

On 14/04/2023 22:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-14 17:35, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 10:08:54 AM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com
writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from
a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a
maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.
I\'ll play the stright cow here. In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.

I\'m no expert in UK electrical regulations, but in other
conversations, I\'m pretty sure I\'ve been told this is not the case.
The reason is, in the UK, most homes are wired with a \"ring\" that can
carry much more than 13 amps.  So the wires and breaker are rated at
higher currents.  So each 13 amp load can actually draw 13 amps.

Also, in the UK, the protection device for everything plugged into an
outlet, is in the device.  They put a \"fuse\" in the connector itself.

Sounds pretty good to me.  In conversations with brits who know about
this stuff, they claim their electrical safety is much better than in
the US.  They don\'t seem to have a problem with tossing out the old
every few decades, when they come up with something that is
significantly better.

I have an old British plug here, fused. I just opened it for a check,
and the fuse is rated 13A.

With a continuous load of 13A, that fuse will blow. I don\'t know if in
hours, or days, or minutes, but it will blow.

Probably more likely years although the modern socket may well melt
first. Modern ones are nowhere near as well made as the older ones were.

A typical UK 13A rated standard fuse to BS1362 will support 20A
indefinitely according to the specification! I know from bitter
experience that they will support 26A for around 3 minutes since that is
how the church tea ladies destroyed one of the VH extension leads.

)

Ok, good to know. Not the normal kind of fuse I know of.

A nominal 3A fuse will take nearly 5A before it blows in a fraction of a
second. The low current ones are somewhat steeper protection.

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php

The fuse is intended to protect against shorts and cable cuts they are
pretty sloppy as current limiting devices. And they get damn hot at 13+A.

Now all of our VH extension leads now have thermal cutouts so that if
you use them still all coiled up and plug in two kettles at the far end
it does not self immolate. The fuse ultimately protected but only after
the whole thing had melted internally and live touched neutral or earth.

You remember the Spectrum? Well, the power supply had a thermal fuse.
Once of those blew off, and they asked me at the student residence to
have a look. I had never seen one, and couldn\'t get one at the component
shop. I don\'t remember now if I did finally found one, or replaced the
unit with a wire or a standard fuse.

We thought, how funny Britons are, installing thermal fuses in gadgets

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:19:00 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:

On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.

Safer at 240V all over the place??? I don\'t think so. Things like accidental shocks and arcs between deteriorated wiring have 4x the energy, and thus are 4x the hazard.

You can\'t be serious that a single feed is more reliable than multiple feeds.

Okay, it\'s possibly cheaper. Be sure to account for all those plug switches, fuses, and fuse holders- then maybe not so much.

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.
Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S.
Correct. And most US wiring is banned by UK regs.

Care to name a U.S. practice that would be banned?

For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit.
or 2. I\'ve not seen that be a problem. Bear in mind our socket circuits are mostly 240v 32A continuous, and they can run much more for short time. I can think of no reason to need more than that upstairs in the average house.

Right- a standard breaker runs something like 5 minutes at 2x trip rating.

U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.
yes.
If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.
No, not a problem.

It would be in U.S.

Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.
It hasn\'t
UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind,
Someone doesn\'t know much about uk housing.

The real estate property management websites in UK say differently. I like the way they use all this high sounding language like \"industrial housing\" for trailer park, or \"estate\" for any old subdivision cluster. Then there are the well publicized massive failures with atrocious public housing: they couldn\'t even make a concrete panel to spec. UK has a multitude of housing industry problems you just don\'t hear about in the civilized world.

actually the place is a disaster area.
?

 

[Tabby]

On Sunday, 16 April 2023 at 04:23:23 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:19:00 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.
Why would it be any safer? I can\'t see where it would be any cheaper, unless you don\'t have many outlets.

There\'s more to it, but the main player on this point is that on a radial a bad connection becomes an immediate fire risk, whereas on a ring it creates no fire risk.

In the US, the number of outlets is a requirement. It used to be every 6 foot, so a lamp cord could always reach an outlet. I\'ve read it is shorter now. Probably just to provide more outlets, since we have so many things to plug in these days. Fortunately, most are flea power, like phone charging, etc.
We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.
Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S.
Correct. And most US wiring is banned by UK regs.
Courses for horses.
For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit.
or 2. I\'ve not seen that be a problem. Bear in mind our socket circuits are mostly 240v 32A continuous, and they can run much more for short times.. I can think of no reason to need more than that upstairs in the average house.

I guess you don\'t have room air conditioning?

no need. If fitted and high powered enough they\'d go on their own circuit. People do use portable ac occasionally, it runs on a plug with no difficulty.

> What about space heaters?

there are some houses that use plug-in space heaters. If you exeed 7.2kW continuous you\'d expire before the circuit tripped.

> Hair irons?

a trivial load. If you made an 8kW hair iron you\'d catch fire fast.


> There are many devices that draw a lot of power.

I can\'t think of any plug-in that exceeds 3kW intermittent. 32A provides over 7kW contiuous, much more intermittent. How much more is a matter for debate, but double is fine.

In the US, room airconditioners typically have a dedicated circuit, sometimes 240V. But then, some places in the US get hot, for real. Or muggy, for real.
U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.
yes.
If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.
No, not a problem.
The power drawn is not a function of the number of receptacles. In the US, outlets are added for convenience. Long cords can be a trip hazard

we tend to put a socket anywhere it\'s likely to be used. Leads don\'t drape across walkways. It doesn\'t require 1 per 6\' for that.

> and/or electrical concerns when plugged into an outlet expander. Bloggie can be a bit much sometimes.

snip

 

[Tabby]

On Sunday, 16 April 2023 at 19:52:30 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:

On 14/04/2023 22:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-04-14 17:35, Ricky wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 10:08:54 AM UTC-4, danny burstein wrote:
In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from
a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a
maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.
I\'ll play the stright cow here. In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.

I\'m no expert in UK electrical regulations, but in other
conversations, I\'m pretty sure I\'ve been told this is not the case.
The reason is, in the UK, most homes are wired with a \"ring\" that can
carry much more than 13 amps. So the wires and breaker are rated at
higher currents. So each 13 amp load can actually draw 13 amps.

Also, in the UK, the protection device for everything plugged into an
outlet, is in the device. They put a \"fuse\" in the connector itself.

Sounds pretty good to me. In conversations with brits who know about
this stuff, they claim their electrical safety is much better than in
the US. They don\'t seem to have a problem with tossing out the old
every few decades, when they come up with something that is
significantly better.

I have an old British plug here, fused. I just opened it for a check,
and the fuse is rated 13A.

With a continuous load of 13A, that fuse will blow. I don\'t know if in
hours, or days, or minutes, but it will blow.
Probably more likely years although the modern socket may well melt
first. Modern ones are nowhere near as well made as the older ones were.

A typical UK 13A rated standard fuse to BS1362 will support 20A
indefinitely according to the specification! I know from bitter
experience that they will support 26A for around 3 minutes since that is
how the church tea ladies destroyed one of the VH extension leads.

A nominal 3A fuse will take nearly 5A before it blows in a fraction of a
second. The low current ones are somewhat steeper protection.

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php


The fuse is intended to protect against shorts and cable cuts they are
pretty sloppy as current limiting devices. And they get damn hot at 13+A.

if one does you\'ve got a fault. Pdiss is 1 watt at rated i.

Most plugs & sockets are fine at 13A, but there have occasionally been ones that didn\'t meet that requirement, so many appliances now stick to 10A, as it\'s then one design for multiple countries.

Now all of our VH extension leads now have thermal cutouts so that if
you use them still all coiled up and plug in two kettles at the far end
it does not self immolate. The fuse ultimately protected but only after
the whole thing had melted internally and live touched neutral or earth.

--
Martin Brown

 

[Tabby]

On Sunday, 16 April 2023 at 21:23:23 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:19:00 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.
Safer at 240V all over the place??? I don\'t think so. Things like accidental shocks and arcs between deteriorated wiring have 4x the energy, and thus are 4x the hazard.

we were comparing rings with radials, not 240 with 110. I explained upthread the prime reason for better ring safety, but it\'s not the only one.
And yes, 240 is safer than 110, assuming proper safety is applied. Fire is a much bigger killer than shock.


> You can\'t be serious that a single feed is more reliable than multiple feeds.

it is when it\'s a ring. Are you entirely familiar with ring circuits? If so you\'ll know why they\'re more reliable.

> Okay, it\'s possibly cheaper. Be sure to account for all those plug switches, fuses, and fuse holders- then maybe not so much.

switches are not required. They\'re almost universal for safety, convenience & energy saving.
Plugs are now £1 a piece here, probably more than in the US but they are a much safer design.
Double sokcets (switched) £1.60 each now, down to about 1 pound each in a multipack.

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.
Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S.
Correct. And most US wiring is banned by UK regs.
Care to name a U.S. practice that would be banned?

almost all. Seriously there\'s not much US wiring practice that\'s allowed here, mostly on safety grounds.

For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit.
or 2. I\'ve not seen that be a problem. Bear in mind our socket circuits are mostly 240v 32A continuous, and they can run much more for short time. I can think of no reason to need more than that upstairs in the average house.

Right- a standard breaker runs something like 5 minutes at 2x trip rating..
U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.
yes.
If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.
No, not a problem.
It would be in U.S.

US uses 5mA GFCIs iirc. UK uses 1x 30mA per entire circuit.

Nuisance trips can occur on 1st generation RCDed installs, where they were mandated prematurely, and used 1x 30mA RCD per entire house!

Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.
It hasn\'t
UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind,
Someone doesn\'t know much about uk housing.
The real estate property management websites in UK say differently. I like the way they use all this high sounding language like \"industrial housing\" for trailer park, or \"estate\" for any old subdivision cluster. Then there are the well publicized massive failures with atrocious public housing: they couldn\'t even make a concrete panel to spec. UK has a multitude of housing industry problems you just don\'t hear about in the civilized world.

There is plenty of lousy housing, I agree with hat. There is also plenty of excellent housing, which mostly does not land in the dubious hands of estate agent management.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/04/2023 20:10, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-04-16 20:52, Martin Brown wrote:
On 14/04/2023 22:34, Carlos E.R. wrote:

With a continuous load of 13A, that fuse will blow. I don\'t know if
in hours, or days, or minutes, but it will blow.

Probably more likely years although the modern socket may well melt
first. Modern ones are nowhere near as well made as the older ones were.

A typical UK 13A rated standard fuse to BS1362 will support 20A
indefinitely according to the specification! I know from bitter
experience that they will support 26A for around 3 minutes since that
is how the church tea ladies destroyed one of the VH extension leads.

)

Ok, good to know. Not the normal kind of fuse I know of.

I suggest you read the specification of your local fuses carefully then.

Lower current fuses do tend to blow PDQ at around 2x their nominal
rating but the 13A ones are remarkably resilient.

Automotive fuses with low melting points have a much lower voltage drop
and dissipation at any given current.

A nominal 3A fuse will take nearly 5A before it blows in a fraction of
a second. The low current ones are somewhat steeper protection.

https://www.pat-testing-training.net/articles/fuse-operation-characteristics.php

The fuse is intended to protect against shorts and cable cuts they are
pretty sloppy as current limiting devices. And they get damn hot at 13+A.

Now all of our VH extension leads now have thermal cutouts so that if
you use them still all coiled up and plug in two kettles at the far
end it does not self immolate. The fuse ultimately protected but only
after the whole thing had melted internally and live touched neutral
or earth.

You remember the Spectrum? Well, the power supply had a thermal fuse.

I even remember the call centre in an attic where CS students earned pin
money answering repair calls - at least until all the common modes of
failure were identified and then replaced by clueless script droids.

Once of those blew off, and they asked me at the student residence to
have a look. I had never seen one, and couldn\'t get one at the component
shop. I don\'t remember now if I did finally found one, or replaced the
unit with a wire or a standard fuse.

We thought, how funny Britons are, installing thermal fuses in gadgets

A form of built in obsolescence. Just about all UK mains powered kit has
a fuse in its plug with the possible exception of electric shavers.

The one time thermal cutout fuses in fan heaters have prevented a lot of
fires from units that have been obstructed or knocked over.


--
Martin Brown

 

[Ricky]

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 4:26:10 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:

On Sunday, 16 April 2023 at 04:23:23 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:19:00 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country.. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.
Why would it be any safer? I can\'t see where it would be any cheaper, unless you don\'t have many outlets.
There\'s more to it, but the main player on this point is that on a radial a bad connection becomes an immediate fire risk, whereas on a ring it creates no fire risk.

What bad connection? Bad connections in house wiring are virtually non-existent, other than when aluminum wiring was used 50 years ago. If this were a problem your redundant connection is only protection until a bad connection develops. You have no way to know your protection is compromised.

In the US, the number of outlets is a requirement. It used to be every 6 foot, so a lamp cord could always reach an outlet. I\'ve read it is shorter now. Probably just to provide more outlets, since we have so many things to plug in these days. Fortunately, most are flea power, like phone charging, etc.
We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.
Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S.
Correct. And most US wiring is banned by UK regs.
Courses for horses.
For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit.
or 2. I\'ve not seen that be a problem. Bear in mind our socket circuits are mostly 240v 32A continuous, and they can run much more for short times. I can think of no reason to need more than that upstairs in the average house.

I guess you don\'t have room air conditioning?
no need. If fitted and high powered enough they\'d go on their own circuit.. People do use portable ac occasionally, it runs on a plug with no difficulty.

How high is \"high\"? I see home where virtually every room has a window AC unit. \"A\" unit will run on a circuit ok. It\'s trying to fit the several units that becomes a problem.

What about space heaters?

there are some houses that use plug-in space heaters. If you exeed 7.2kW continuous you\'d expire before the circuit tripped.

You have very limited thinking. Again... imagine one in each room on a cold winter night. I know people who do this. They think individually heating the bedrooms saves money over heating the house.

I love the fact that you think the problem with this is tripping the circuit breaker, rather than the fire hazard.

Hair irons?

a trivial load. If you made an 8kW hair iron you\'d catch fire fast.

LOL Look them up sometime.

There are many devices that draw a lot of power.
I can\'t think of any plug-in that exceeds 3kW intermittent. 32A provides over 7kW contiuous, much more intermittent. How much more is a matter for debate, but double is fine.

In the US, we take fire safety seriously. We can\'t draw double the rating of a breaker without it tripping. I think I see why UK electrical safety is a myth.

In the US, room airconditioners typically have a dedicated circuit, sometimes 240V. But then, some places in the US get hot, for real. Or muggy, for real.
U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.
yes.
If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.
No, not a problem.
The power drawn is not a function of the number of receptacles. In the US, outlets are added for convenience. Long cords can be a trip hazard
we tend to put a socket anywhere it\'s likely to be used. Leads don\'t drape across walkways. It doesn\'t require 1 per 6\' for that.

LOL You don\'t know where they are needed until you try to plug something into an outlet, and it isn\'t there. Or maybe the furniture arrangement is mandated by the floor plan. I have a living room with furniture that\'s not against a wall. I added outlets in the floor.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-04-17 14:28, Ricky wrote:

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 4:26:10 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 16 April 2023 at 04:23:23 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:19:00 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.
Why would it be any safer? I can\'t see where it would be any cheaper, unless you don\'t have many outlets.
There\'s more to it, but the main player on this point is that on a radial a bad connection becomes an immediate fire risk, whereas on a ring it creates no fire risk.

What bad connection? Bad connections in house wiring are virtually non-existent, other than when aluminum wiring was used 50 years ago. If this were a problem your redundant connection is only protection until a bad connection develops. You have no way to know your protection is compromised.

Copper oxidizes, and nuts and bolts can become loose.

....

In the US, room airconditioners typically have a dedicated circuit, sometimes 240V. But then, some places in the US get hot, for real. Or muggy, for real.
U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.
yes.
If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.
No, not a problem.
The power drawn is not a function of the number of receptacles. In the US, outlets are added for convenience. Long cords can be a trip hazard
we tend to put a socket anywhere it\'s likely to be used. Leads don\'t drape across walkways. It doesn\'t require 1 per 6\' for that.

LOL You don\'t know where they are needed until you try to plug something into an outlet, and it isn\'t there. Or maybe the furniture arrangement is mandated by the floor plan. I have a living room with furniture that\'s not against a wall. I added outlets in the floor.

That\'s not possible in my country, as we typically clean the floor with
a mop and water.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mop#/media/File:Janitor\'s_bucket_with_mop.jpg

A patented Spanish invention, by the way

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Jal%C3%B3n_Corominas>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.

Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S. For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit. U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK. If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips. Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.

UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind, actually the place is a disaster area.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring. Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.

Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S. For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit. U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK. If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips. Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.

UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind, actually the place is a disaster area.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?


We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.

Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S. For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit. U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK. If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips. Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.

UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind, actually the place is a disaster area.

The individual who authored the Wiki article is kind of wacky. The part about the ring allowing for reduction of the wire gauge, on the assumption loads will be shared between the two radials in some way, is a strictly forbidden in principle in all sensible wiring codes.