Why do EVs not use the full 3.12kW from a mains socket?...

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.

So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.

In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.

Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit

I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.

Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.

Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S. For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit. U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK. If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips. Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.

UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind, actually the place is a disaster area.

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 13:28:55 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 4:26:10 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Sunday, 16 April 2023 at 04:23:23 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
On Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 10:19:00 PM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 15 April 2023 at 12:45:07 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
It\'s safer, more reliable & usually cheaper than radials. That equals better.
Why would it be any safer? I can\'t see where it would be any cheaper, unless you don\'t have many outlets.
There\'s more to it, but the main player on this point is that on a radial a bad connection becomes an immediate fire risk, whereas on a ring it creates no fire risk.
What bad connection? Bad connections in house wiring are virtually non-existent,

if you think that you know jack about domestic wiring. Bad connections are why the UK banned wirenuts in 1955. They\'re why all sockets use screw connections, not poke-ins.


> other than when aluminum wiring was used 50 years ago. If this were a problem your redundant connection is only protection until a bad connection develops.

it\'s ok /after/ a bad connection. Radials aren\'t.

> You have no way to know your protection is compromised.

It\'s called an EICR. Even without one, 1 bad connection tolerance is much better than zero.

In the US, the number of outlets is a requirement. It used to be every 6 foot, so a lamp cord could always reach an outlet. I\'ve read it is shorter now. Probably just to provide more outlets, since we have so many things to plug in these days. Fortunately, most are flea power, like phone charging, etc.
We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.
Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S.
Correct. And most US wiring is banned by UK regs.
Courses for horses.
For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit.
or 2. I\'ve not seen that be a problem. Bear in mind our socket circuits are mostly 240v 32A continuous, and they can run much more for short times. I can think of no reason to need more than that upstairs in the average house.

I guess you don\'t have room air conditioning?
no need. If fitted and high powered enough they\'d go on their own circuit. People do use portable ac occasionally, it runs on a plug with no difficulty.
How high is \"high\"?

enough to not be a good choice for the ring, obviously.

> I see home where virtually every room has a window AC unit. \"A\" unit will run on a circuit ok. It\'s trying to fit the several units that becomes a problem.

Again, if installing that much they get their own circuit.

What about space heaters?

there are some houses that use plug-in space heaters. If you exeed 7.2kW continuous you\'d expire before the circuit tripped.
You have very limited thinking. Again... imagine one in each room on a cold winter night. I know people who do this. They think individually heating the bedrooms saves money over heating the house.

Whoosh. 7kW of heat continuous is fairly intolerable.

> I love the fact that you think the problem with this is tripping the circuit breaker, rather than the fire hazard.

You won\'t create a fire hazard by plugging too much in. The cable has enough ampacity to be fine until the mcb/rcbo/fuse trips.

Hair irons?

a trivial load. If you made an 8kW hair iron you\'d catch fire fast.
LOL Look them up sometime.

Why? I\'ve seen plenty. Your suggestion that they exceed a circuit\'s capability is fantasy.

There are many devices that draw a lot of power.
I can\'t think of any plug-in that exceeds 3kW intermittent. 32A provides over 7kW contiuous, much more intermittent. How much more is a matter for debate, but double is fine.
In the US, we take fire safety seriously. We can\'t draw double the rating of a breaker without it tripping. I think I see why UK electrical safety is a myth.

Kitchens here are often all on one ring circuit bar the cooker. Greatly exceeding 32A for a few minutes is routine. It\'s not a safety issue, it\'s how they\'re designed to work.

In the US, room airconditioners typically have a dedicated circuit, sometimes 240V. But then, some places in the US get hot, for real. Or muggy, for real.
U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK.
yes.
If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips.
No, not a problem.
The power drawn is not a function of the number of receptacles. In the US, outlets are added for convenience. Long cords can be a trip hazard
we tend to put a socket anywhere it\'s likely to be used. Leads don\'t drape across walkways. It doesn\'t require 1 per 6\' for that.
LOL You don\'t know where they are needed until you try to plug something into an outlet, and it isn\'t there. Or maybe the furniture arrangement is mandated by the floor plan. I have a living room with furniture that\'s not against a wall. I added outlets in the floor.

I\'m not sure what your complaint is. It simply isn\'t a problem with modern wiring. Outdated setups do lack sockets, we had way less electrical stuff in the 70s & before. It\'s unusual now to encounter inadequate sockets.

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 18:11:25 UTC+1, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?


We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.

Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S. For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit. U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK. If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips. Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.

UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind, actually the place is a disaster area.
The individual who authored the Wiki article is kind of wacky. The part about the ring allowing for reduction of the wire gauge, on the assumption loads will be shared between the two radials in some way, is a strictly forbidden in principle in all sensible wiring codes.

With respect a ring cannot fail to share the load both ways, you can\'t plug over 7kW into one socket. The cable has the ampacity to handle real life. To call that not sensible is failing to grasp how they work.

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.

If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.

In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.

there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.

Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.

no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country.. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:24:12 -0700 (PDT), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
<keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw

We require GFD outlets within some distance of water fixtures, and
around concrete floors like garages. That\'s all. I have outside
weatherproof-covered outlets that for some reason don\'t.

Ours in the kitchen false trips sometimes, like when I make whipped
cream or puree sauce with my immersion blender. Minor nuisasnce.

 

[ke...@kjwdesigns.com]

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 18:29:13 UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
....

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw
We require GFD outlets within some distance of water fixtures, and
around concrete floors like garages. That\'s all. I have outside
weatherproof-covered outlets that for some reason don\'t.

Ours in the kitchen false trips sometimes, like when I make whipped
cream or puree sauce with my immersion blender. Minor nuisasnce.

an AFCI breaker can also detect series arcs caused by bad connections, not just parallel arcs or ground fault.

They have been required for many years in the US for bedrooms with more of a residence being included with each revision of the rules. Commonly the same breaker will also include GFD/GFCI functionality.

kw

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 2:08:33 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.

Excatly.

> So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.

LOL- I\'ll get to that.

In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.

Right. The circuits are usually broken down by rooms. The NEC requires you have two independent (breakers) circuits per room, a safety measure.
Then you have appliance type areas on a GFCI, kitchens and bathrooms. Line operated smoke detectors have to be on a dedicated circuit. Of course the big stuff like furnaces, water heaters, A/C are all on dedicated circuits. More requirements for exterior loads like lighting and outlets. Bottom line is the wiring is going to be whatever it has to be to satisfy all these higher level requirements.

Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.

I\'m not quite getting what you\'re saying. They should have known enough back then to pig tail each outlet off the ring, with connection made by wire nut ( originally some kind of porcelain ) or solder, and the connections contained within an outlet box. It\'s the screw terminals on the receptacles that usually go out first because of unmatched thermal expansion of the two different metals used. And that would require a max type of load to heat the junction.

The most important way the ring is superior to a radial layout is reduction of voltage drop at the outlet by up to a factor of four. Recall, this was from 1940s, when people thought nothing of using 1000W incandescent light bulbs. Since the tungsten incandescent lumen output is strongly dependent on applied voltage, something like 4%/1%, the ring layout will minimize lamp dimming along its length as well as when additional loads are turned on and off. If you take a ring of total length R around the house and back to the distribution box, then the furthest point for power is R/2. Looking back into the source, the outlet sees R/2||R/2= R/4. Whereas a radial layout potentially gives a maximum of R at the end of the line. I call that a big improvement by way of avoiding noticeable dimming and brightening of lamps. If you have a 100ft run of 10ga., that would be 0.1 ohm all around. But in the ring, it acts like 0.025 ohm. For 7000W at 220V for 32A, that makes for 3.2V drop versus 0.8, with corresponding lumen change of 5% radial versus 1..2% ring. There will also be a corresponding improvement in flicker due to inrush currents.

Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.

It\'s just a geometry, and from the 1940s, so things like an impedance monitor weren\'t going to happen.

We also have switches on our sockets, and sleeved pins. I guess that\'s why you still have the wimpy 120V in most circuits.

Much of UK wiring would not be allowed under the national electric code in the U.S. For one would be this crummy ring circuit idea. U.S requires at least two independently fused/ protected circuits per room, UK puts an entire floor on the ring circuit. U.S. not only allows for, but requires, many more electrical outlets than UK. If they try doing the equivalent number on a ring circuit, they would be begging for nuisance trips. Sounds like the ring circuit method has been abandoned for new construction in UK for quite some time.

UK is not exactly famous for high quality housing of any kind, actually the place is a disaster area.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 1:18:56 AM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 2:08:33 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country.. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
Excatly.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
LOL- I\'ll get to that.

In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Right. The circuits are usually broken down by rooms. The NEC requires you have two independent (breakers) circuits per room, a safety measure.
Then you have appliance type areas on a GFCI, kitchens and bathrooms. Line operated smoke detectors have to be on a dedicated circuit. Of course the big stuff like furnaces, water heaters, A/C are all on dedicated circuits. More requirements for exterior loads like lighting and outlets. Bottom line is the wiring is going to be whatever it has to be to satisfy all these higher level requirements.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
I\'m not quite getting what you\'re saying. They should have known enough back then to pig tail each outlet off the ring, with connection made by wire nut ( originally some kind of porcelain ) or solder, and the connections contained within an outlet box. It\'s the screw terminals on the receptacles that usually go out first because of unmatched thermal expansion of the two different metals used. And that would require a max type of load to heat the junction.

The most important way the ring is superior to a radial layout is reduction of voltage drop at the outlet by up to a factor of four. Recall, this was from 1940s, when people thought nothing of using 1000W incandescent light bulbs. Since the tungsten incandescent lumen output is strongly dependent on applied voltage, something like 4%/1%, the ring layout will minimize lamp dimming along its length as well as when additional loads are turned on and off. If you take a ring of total length R around the house and back to the distribution box, then the furthest point for power is R/2. Looking back into the source, the outlet sees R/2||R/2= R/4. Whereas a radial layout potentially gives a maximum of R at the end of the line. I call that a big improvement by way of avoiding noticeable dimming and brightening of lamps. If you have a 100ft run of 10ga., that would be 0.1 ohm all around. But in the ring, it acts like 0.025 ohm. For 7000W at 220V for 32A, that makes for 3.2V drop versus 0.8, with corresponding lumen change of 5% radial versus 1.2% ring. There will also be a corresponding improvement in flicker due to inrush currents.

Double those voltages and lumen output deviations to account for round trip on those cables.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:24:17 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

I= Interrupter

kw

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 9:29:13 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:24:12 -0700 (PDT), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall.. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw
We require GFD outlets within some distance of water fixtures, and
around concrete floors like garages. That\'s all. I have outside
weatherproof-covered outlets that for some reason don\'t.

Ours in the kitchen false trips sometimes, like when I make whipped
cream or puree sauce with my immersion blender. Minor nuisasnce.

If you have a spikey load on a transient protected outlet strip, the AFCI trips continuously. Plug the spikey load directly into AFCI protected outlet and no trips. I don\'t like the sound of that one bit. AFCIs can be a lifesaver, but they\'re pricey as a backfit.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 17/04/2023 16:09, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?

Twice the current carrying capacity for a given wire diameter provided
that the ring remains intact. Parallel resistors and all that.

Way cheaper than a star configuration of single cables to each socket
where everything has to go back to some common node or other.

Be aware that KC is a well known thick UK troll who is just pulling your
chain. If he was any good at it he would not have to post so much!

--
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Brown]

On 18/04/2023 02:28, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:24:12 -0700 (PDT), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw

We require GFD outlets within some distance of water fixtures, and
around concrete floors like garages. That\'s all. I have outside
weatherproof-covered outlets that for some reason don\'t.

Ours in the kitchen false trips sometimes, like when I make whipped
cream or puree sauce with my immersion blender. Minor nuisasnce.

There is no such thing as a false trip in that sense - only one that
takes the total leakage current above the trip set point.

Other ones I have seen include:

Old VH water boiler after a period of no events. It would trip the very
first time it was switched on and then mysteriously self heal. Turns out
the hard water/air bubble in the tiny hole in the element was enough to
get it through a entire session but it had in fact failed.

My neighbours bread maker did something similar although it was rusted
to hell by the time it failed. Heating elements and mixer motors seem
very prone to corrosion causing an insulation breakdown failure.

Self healing ones are particularly hard to find since all you get is a
report that it happened but immediate testing shows \"no problem\".

The one that used to take our kitchen lights circuit down annoyingly was
failure of a classical spotlight creating a ELCB or over current trip
when the bulb blew. LED spots don\'t have that problem at all.

--
Martin Brown

 

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On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 4:13:25 PM UTC+2, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 9:57:25 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.
That\'s about the right, a derating to 80%. The socket may be rated for that current, but the connecting wiring may not be able to handle the temperature rise. It saves the homeowner the cost of a new circuit installation, which for most people equates to hiring an electrician and obtaining a permit.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 22:43:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 9:29:13?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:24:12 -0700 (PDT), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw
We require GFD outlets within some distance of water fixtures, and
around concrete floors like garages. That\'s all. I have outside
weatherproof-covered outlets that for some reason don\'t.

Ours in the kitchen false trips sometimes, like when I make whipped
cream or puree sauce with my immersion blender. Minor nuisasnce.

If you have a spikey load on a transient protected outlet strip, the AFCI trips continuously. Plug the spikey load directly into AFCI protected outlet and no trips. I don\'t like the sound of that one bit. AFCIs can be a lifesaver, but they\'re pricey as a backfit.

I\'d guess that the outlet strip has MOVs line-to-ground that convert
differential-mode currents into common-mode, and that trips the ground
fault detector.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 09:09:05 +0100, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 18/04/2023 02:28, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:24:12 -0700 (PDT), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw

We require GFD outlets within some distance of water fixtures, and
around concrete floors like garages. That\'s all. I have outside
weatherproof-covered outlets that for some reason don\'t.

Ours in the kitchen false trips sometimes, like when I make whipped
cream or puree sauce with my immersion blender. Minor nuisasnce.

There is no such thing as a false trip in that sense - only one that
takes the total leakage current above the trip set point.

It trips when there is no current path to ground and no hazard. I
define that as a false trip. I\'d guess that the speed controller in
the blender makes high frequency crud that fools the GFD.

Other ones I have seen include:

Old VH water boiler after a period of no events. It would trip the very
first time it was switched on and then mysteriously self heal. Turns out
the hard water/air bubble in the tiny hole in the element was enough to
get it through a entire session but it had in fact failed.

My neighbours bread maker did something similar although it was rusted
to hell by the time it failed. Heating elements and mixer motors seem
very prone to corrosion causing an insulation breakdown failure.

Self healing ones are particularly hard to find since all you get is a
report that it happened but immediate testing shows \"no problem\".

The one that used to take our kitchen lights circuit down annoyingly was
failure of a classical spotlight creating a ELCB or over current trip
when the bulb blew. LED spots don\'t have that problem at all.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 3:59:44 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 17/04/2023 16:09, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?
Twice the current carrying capacity for a given wire diameter provided
that the ring remains intact. Parallel resistors and all that.

I\'m pretty sure that has been an 80 year old misunderstanding. The people who conceived the idea meant to communicate it gets the same performance as from a wire with twice the diameter and NOT that a smaller wire could be used. They needed that because the ring run is not only much longer but also because of all the loading on it. A 32A ring wired with 10 ga. gives the same performance as a 4 ga.

Way cheaper than a star configuration of single cables to each socket
where everything has to go back to some common node or other.

Be aware that KC is a well known thick UK troll who is just pulling your
chain. If he was any good at it he would not have to post so much!

--
Martin Brown

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:59:37 +0100, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 17/04/2023 16:09, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.

How does a ring save copper?

Twice the current carrying capacity for a given wire diameter provided
that the ring remains intact. Parallel resistors and all that.

If there is a break in the ring, the economical skinny wire will fry.

I thought redundancy/safety was a selling point of the ring. That
requires fat wire.

Way cheaper than a star configuration of single cables to each socket
where everything has to go back to some common node or other.

We don\'t run a cable to each socket! One breaker feeds a bunch of
loads. I don \'t have a hundred circuit breakers.

Be aware that KC is a well known thick UK troll who is just pulling your
chain. If he was any good at it he would not have to post so much!

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:25:35 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 22:43:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 9:29:13?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 17:24:12 -0700 (PDT), \"ke...@kjwdesigns.com\"
ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker.. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.

Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw
We require GFD outlets within some distance of water fixtures, and
around concrete floors like garages. That\'s all. I have outside
weatherproof-covered outlets that for some reason don\'t.

Ours in the kitchen false trips sometimes, like when I make whipped
cream or puree sauce with my immersion blender. Minor nuisasnce.

If you have a spikey load on a transient protected outlet strip, the AFCI trips continuously. Plug the spikey load directly into AFCI protected outlet and no trips. I don\'t like the sound of that one bit. AFCIs can be a lifesaver, but they\'re pricey as a backfit.
I\'d guess that the outlet strip has MOVs line-to-ground that convert
differential-mode currents into common-mode, and that trips the ground
fault detector.

That\'s the thing I don\'t like about it. Those crummy little MOVs can only handle a few tens milliwatts before they overheat. They shouldn\'t be conducting at all.

 

[Tabby]

On Tuesday, 18 April 2023 at 01:24:17 UTC+1, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 16:49:42 UTC-7, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 19:08:33 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:52:53 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 11:09:17?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 04:45:02 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 3:58:33?PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 15:08:47 +0100, danny burstein <dan...@panix.com> wrote:

In <op.13d81...@ryzen.home> \"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> writes:

In the UK, \"most vehicle manufacturers limit the current drawn from a standard domestic 3 pin socket to 10A or less, which equates to a maximum of 2.3kW.\"

Why? A UK socket is 13A, or 3.12kW.

I\'ll play the stright cow here.
No idea what that\'s supposed to mean.
In the USofA, a \"continous load\"
on a circuit is generall maxed at at _80 percent_ of the rated
wire/circuit carrying capcity.

Reason: heat buildup.

I suspect, with no foundationwhatsever, the UK uses
the same concepts.
It does not, we wire things properly as we\'re a 1st world country. You can buy 3kW fanheaters for example. I\'ve run one for several hours without anything bursting into flames.

UK adopted the ring circuit for residential wiring as a measure to conserve copper which was expensive and in short supply in the 1940s. It is not better.
How does a ring save copper?

Instead of bringing each load to the distribution box via a radial, they bring the distribution box to all the loads simultaneously with the ring circuit. So you have this single 30A circuit that gets strung through every power outlet on the floor, and at the end of the string of loads they run another radial back to the distribution box, forming the ring.
So chop out the \"another radial back\" bit and save copper.
If you sketch a house layout with its sockets, it\'s obvious right away that a ring layout uses less cable. The ring goes all round the outer wall. A sigle radial would save a tiny bit of length, but have to be thicker. Multiple radials use much more.

When first used in the late 40s, rings were created by linking 2 existing 15A sockets (which were on radials), and adding as many sockets to it as wanted. This was practical for the diyer, uses the minimum of cable & did not involve accessing fusebox wiring.
In my house, there is not a radial run per outlet. Most runs hit
multiple outlets. We have roughly 8 loads per breaker, something about
like that. We don\'t have 100 breakers.
Compared to the multi-radial method, the ring circuit saves about 25% of the raw materials, in the UK. Most of that is probably due to the reality of limited freedom in exactly where they\'re able to even run wiring- resulting in bundles of wires sharing the same runs- from which anyone can see the ring circuit is big savings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_circuit
I thought one concept of the ring was to avoid overheating at a bad,
high-resistance junction. So every wire has to stand the full load,
and the ring increases the worst-case run length downstream of a bad
connection.
there is NO length downstream of a bad connection.
Do ring circuits have a ring impedance monitor, to detect those bad
connections? I suspect not.
no, nor do radials. I daresay the future will involve a lot more detailed monitoring than today\'s setups.
Both the USA and UK either require or recommend Arc Fault Circuit Isolators (AFCI) for some circuits such as those for bedrooms.

They will detect arcs and disconnect power to that circuit to reduce the chance of a fire or smoke due to a bad connection.

kw

in theory. Folk that have tested them are not impressed.