When is the Covid war over?

[Bill Sloman]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 11:22:29 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Mon, 6 Apr 2020 12:46:00 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 8:09:45 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Mon, 6 Apr 2020 09:24:41 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 05/04/2020 15:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:23:01 +0100, Martin Brown
'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 04/04/2020 01:00, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Apr 2020 16:40:42 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com
wrote:

On Friday, April 3, 2020 at 12:26:33 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 03 Apr 2020 02:00:21 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, April 2, 2020 at 11:12:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

The lockdowns are trashing the economy, which hurts people, and are
probably not going to save many lives.

UK modelling suggests it may decrease the death toll by an order of
magnitude or so. That is a distinctly non-trivial contribution.

Oh. Computer modeling says that? How silly of me.

OK. *STOP* using spice then - that is also a computer model.

I accurately simulate linear systems with known accurate component
models and initial conditions. Nobody accurately simulates chaotic
systems with bad componant models and unknown initial conditions, but
that doesn't stop them from trying, and generating press releases.

The more people you predict killed, the more likely that The
Associated Press will spread your name. So there is a
dead-bodies-stacked-up bidding war based on infallible Computer
Simulations by Top Scientists. Has any quotable source got to a
billion deaths yet?

Even worse, the initial conditions were either lied about, withheld or both.

Or unknown.

The current conditions are, if anything, even more unknown.

What's unknown about the current situation is how many people get infected by Covid-19 by one person who has got infected.

In society as it was before lock-downs and contract tracing, that was about 2.5 to three people, on average (unless you were addicted to touchy-feely religious services that went of for several hours, where the virus could do quite a bit better).

Vigorous contact tracing can cut that right down - to about one new infectee to about a dozen infected people.

Rigorous social isolation can get it almost as low, but there are a lot of less-than-conscientious people around.

> This interests me because I am a connoisseur of wrongness.

He's also an enthusiastic exponent of getting things wrong. When he does it with circuits, it's experimentation and he notices when they don't work.

I am amazed by how many people can get together and reinforce their mutual
wrongness.

Which in practice mostly means disagreeing with John Larkin's superficial adn wrong-headed misapprehensions.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[whit3rd]

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 6:19:00 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> What do *you* think "chaotic system" means?

All measurable continuous quantities (times, distances, etc. but not count-of-eggs)
have an associated uncertainty, and not just because of instruments, it's (in
quantum mechanics) completely consistent with our best theories of
the mechanics of our universe.

A chaotic system is one in which the initial conditions do not propogate (usually
in time) to yield a small accumulated error. The usual demonstration is
a spherical pendulum (a plumb bob) with a magnet, over an array of randomly
placed other magnets. Every 'orbit' you can start, quickly swerves
from the path of every other trial orbit.

So, analysis of these systems involves either statistics (like ideal gas theory) or
concepts like 'strange attractors'. For an electronics example, aim a video camera at
a monitor driven by... the video camera.

 

[David Brown]

On 06/04/2020 10:54, Ricky C wrote:

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 4:20:48 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 06/04/2020 05:55, Ricky C wrote:
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 11:28:19 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman
wrote:

There's no perhaps about it. And being vegetarian takes rather
close attention to what you eat, if you want to stay healthy.
We evolved as omnivores, not plant eaters.

It does??? I think "rather close attention" is a bit of an
overstatement. There are very few essential nutrients that are
not common in plants. There are rather a lot that are not
present in meat at all so that the absence of meat in the diet is
not at all hard to compensate for.

What aspects of vegetarian diets do you find lacking?


Tom has given some key points.

So now I'm asking you.


The mistake some people make about vegetarianism is that they
simply cut out the meat, and don't replace it with an appropriate
variety of vegetable alternatives. They go from "fish and chips"
to "chips". A lot of people don't think very much about what they
eat, and in moving to a vegetarian diet they replace the meat with
the easiest alternatives, which are typically starchy foods (pasta,
potatoes, rice) rather than dairy products, eggs, nuts, beans,
pulses, wholegrain food, etc. They see "going vegetarian" as "not
eating meat" rather than "eating vegetables".

I had a lengthy and a bit heated discussion with someone here on this
issue some time back. We were talking about protein and the numbers
weren't adding up. Turns out he was talking about some hair brain
diet where right off the top some 20%-25% of the calories were
supplied by added fat! Sure, if you do that it is hard to get proper
nutrition.

That is, I think, the very definition of a "hair brain" diet - you have
trouble getting proper nutrition.

In some countries, vegetarianism is very common, and there is
plenty of appropriate food available. It's easy to live as a
vegetarian in the UK, and (I assume) the USA. Here in Norway, it
has become easier in recent years but even just ten years ago it
was hard to get basic protein sources like soya. When I moved here
25+ years ago, I quickly realised that it was vastly easier to add
fish to my diet than to remain vegetarian.

You are showing your ignorance of protein. If you eat 100%
vegetarian and don't include a bunch of processed crap, you will have
to work at not meeting your requirements for protein and all the
essential amino acids. Everything you eat has protein and sufficient
amounts. The only trick is getting all the essential amino acids.
But as it turns out there are only a handful of vegetables that are
not protein complete. So unless your diet is mainly sweet potatoes
or a very small number of less common veggies, you can't miss your
protein requirements.

I am not ignorant about protein, nor showing an ignorance. Yes, pretty
much everything you eat has protein - but the balance of different types
of proteins, and different groups of amino acids, is not evenly spread.
Most meats have a roughly similar balance to what we need (since the
animals need roughly the same balance themselves), but plants vary much
more.

Your body can synthesise most amino acids if they are lacking, but it is
more efficient to get them directly. So as a vegetarian you want to eat
beans, pulses, grains, leafy vegetables, mushrooms, nuts and seeds - eat
a mixture, and you have all you need. This is not a problem for "real"
vegetarians, who like vegetables and are happy to make proper meals.

But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are not
used to eating much in the way of vegetables. It is particularly a
problem for children who are pushed into being vegetarian by parents, as
it is very common for kids to have a limited range of vegetables that
they like. (In particular, it is common to have a strong dislike for
leafy green vegetables.)

Soya is by no means an essential for a vegetarian diet. But it happens
to contain a wide variety and large quantity of proteins, as well as
having a texture that is good for shaping, and an "umnami" taste. This
means it can form the basis of vegetarian mince, chunks, sausages,
burgers, etc.

I'm not sure what soya is, but if it's tofu, yuck! I eat it
sometimes, but not because it has any nutritional benefit. I bought
a bunch a while back to see if I could cook it to taste good and
decided it was crap. So over half of it is still in my fridge in
sealed packs. Does it have a point?

Soya is not tofu, no. Tofu is fermented bean curds, and I am not fond
of it at all. It needs a lot of marinating or sauce to get any kind of
taste, and you are stuck with the squashy texture. (It is popular in
the far east.) Soya originates in a related plant, but is handled very
differently.

And as Tom pointed out, there are different degrees of idealism
and fanaticism in diets. Avoiding eggs and dairy food makes it
harder to get all the right nutrients. For the folks that add in
"trendy" intolerances, misunderstood ideas about "ecological" food,
etc., it's quite easy to miss out on important foodstuffs.

Not eating all animal products is vegan and that's not me. So I
don't care what others do. I especially don't care about the drama
of other people's eating disorders.

Fair enough. That's kind of what I meant about talking at cross
purposes in this thread. No one has been suggesting that /you/ need to
take special precautions in your diet - I'm convinced you eat a healthy
diet as it is. But there is no doubt that /some/ vegetarians need to
take more care than they do.

/I/ don't find my basically vegetarian diet lacking, but there is
no doubt that some people do. Mind you, a fair number of
meat-eaters have very poor diet too.

Bingo! I actually know someone who eats meat and potatoes and maybe
bread if it's a hamburger bun. That's it. He will not eat another
vegetable.

Some people seem to survive on the most bizarre and limited diets. I
remember reading about someone who eats very little other than Nugatti
(chocolate spread with some hazelnuts - I don't know if it is just
Norwegian or international) on white bread.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 07/04/2020 10:59, David Brown wrote:

On 06/04/2020 10:54, Ricky C wrote:

You are showing your ignorance of protein.  If you eat 100%
vegetarian and don't include a bunch of processed crap, you will have
to work at not meeting your requirements for protein and all the
essential amino acids.  Everything you eat has protein and sufficient
amounts.  The only trick is getting all the essential amino acids.
But as it turns out there are only a handful of vegetables that are
not protein complete.  So unless your diet is mainly sweet potatoes
or a very small number of less common veggies, you can't miss your
protein requirements.

I am not ignorant about protein, nor showing an ignorance.  Yes, pretty
much everything you eat has protein - but the balance of different types
of proteins, and different groups of amino acids, is not evenly spread.
 Most meats have a roughly similar balance to what we need (since the
animals need roughly the same balance themselves), but plants vary much
more.

Although in a western diet people typically eat a *lot* more meat than
is strictly necessary for a healthy balanced diet. Japanese diet is much
closer to the actually balanced dietary requirements of a human.

We are generalist omnivores so consumption of meat is not essential.
Cats are obligate carnivores and have to eat some meat to survive.

Your body can synthesise most amino acids if they are lacking, but it is
more efficient to get them directly.  So as a vegetarian you want to eat
beans, pulses, grains, leafy vegetables, mushrooms, nuts and seeds - eat
a mixture, and you have all you need.  This is not a problem for "real"
vegetarians, who like vegetables and are happy to make proper meals.

But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are not
used to eating much in the way of vegetables.  It is particularly a
problem for children who are pushed into being vegetarian by parents, as
it is very common for kids to have a limited range of vegetables that
they like.  (In particular, it is common to have a strong dislike for
leafy green vegetables.)

There have certainly been instances of unwise parents brain damaging or
killing their young children with faddy vegan/vegetarian diets.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/11/vegan-diets-could-be-damaging-childrens-health-nutritionists-warn-6630965/

Soya is by no means an essential for a vegetarian diet.  But it happens
to contain a wide variety and large quantity of proteins, as well as
having a texture that is good for shaping, and an "umnami" taste.  This
means it can form the basis of vegetarian mince, chunks, sausages,
burgers, etc.

It can also be processed in various ways to be more interesting.

I'm not sure what soya is, but if it's tofu, yuck!  I eat it
sometimes, but not because it has any nutritional benefit.  I bought
a bunch a while back to see if I could cook it to taste good and
decided it was crap.  So over half of it is still in my fridge in
sealed packs.  Does it have a point?

Soya is not tofu, no.  Tofu is fermented bean curds, and I am not fond
of it at all.  It needs a lot of marinating or sauce to get any kind of
taste, and you are stuck with the squashy texture.  (It is popular in
the far east.)  Soya originates in a related plant, but is handled very
differently.

Tofu is bean curds in gelatinous blocks made in a way not dissimilar to
cheese making. It is a gel that takes up what ever broth you serve with
it. It is a bit more substantial when deep fried. It is one of the
strict vegetarian foods popular in the Far East.

The basis of miso soup is the next level of fermented soya beans and
still fairly mainstream (though now touted as a "superfood").

Very fermented bean curds is nattou. A local delicacy of the area of
Japan where I once lived. Think Evo-stick with baked beans smelling of
the most disgusting garbage can you can imagine and you get the idea. It
tastes much better than it smells a bit like very blue cheese.

And as Tom pointed out, there are different degrees of idealism
and fanaticism in diets.  Avoiding eggs and dairy food makes it
harder to get all the right nutrients.  For the folks that add in
"trendy" intolerances, misunderstood ideas about "ecological" food,
etc., it's quite easy to miss out on important foodstuffs.

Not eating all animal products is vegan and that's not me.  So I
don't care what others do.  I especially don't care about the drama
of other people's eating disorders.

Fair enough.  That's kind of what I meant about talking at cross
purposes in this thread.  No one has been suggesting that /you/ need to
take special precautions in your diet - I'm convinced you eat a healthy
diet as it is.  But there is no doubt that /some/ vegetarians need to
take more care than they do.

Vegans in a modern hygienic environment are typically in danger of
lacking vitamin B. Flour mites protect those in the third world.

/I/ don't find my basically vegetarian diet lacking, but there is
no doubt that some people do.  Mind you, a fair number of
meat-eaters have very poor diet too.

Bingo!  I actually know someone who eats meat and potatoes and maybe
bread if it's a hamburger bun.  That's it.  He will not eat another
vegetable.


Some people seem to survive on the most bizarre and limited diets.  I
remember reading about someone who eats very little other than Nugatti
(chocolate spread with some hazelnuts - I don't know if it is just
Norwegian or international) on white bread.

That stuff is very good as rodent bait. Sold as Nutella here.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 07/04/20 11:37, Martin Brown wrote:

On 07/04/2020 10:59, David Brown wrote:
On 06/04/2020 10:54, Ricky C wrote:

You are showing your ignorance of protein.  If you eat 100%
vegetarian and don't include a bunch of processed crap, you will have
to work at not meeting your requirements for protein and all the
essential amino acids.  Everything you eat has protein and sufficient
amounts.  The only trick is getting all the essential amino acids.
But as it turns out there are only a handful of vegetables that are
not protein complete.  So unless your diet is mainly sweet potatoes
or a very small number of less common veggies, you can't miss your
protein requirements.

I am not ignorant about protein, nor showing an ignorance.  Yes, pretty much
everything you eat has protein - but the balance of different types of
proteins, and different groups of amino acids, is not evenly spread.   Most
meats have a roughly similar balance to what we need (since the animals need
roughly the same balance themselves), but plants vary much more.

Although in a western diet people typically eat a *lot* more meat than is
strictly necessary for a healthy balanced diet. Japanese diet is much closer to
the actually balanced dietary requirements of a human.

We are generalist omnivores so consumption of meat is not essential.
Cats are obligate carnivores and have to eat some meat to survive.

Your body can synthesise most amino acids if they are lacking, but it is more
efficient to get them directly.  So as a vegetarian you want to eat beans,
pulses, grains, leafy vegetables, mushrooms, nuts and seeds - eat a mixture,
and you have all you need.  This is not a problem for "real" vegetarians, who
like vegetables and are happy to make proper meals.

But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are not used to
eating much in the way of vegetables.  It is particularly a problem for
children who are pushed into being vegetarian by parents, as it is very common
for kids to have a limited range of vegetables that they like.  (In
particular, it is common to have a strong dislike for leafy green vegetables.)

There have certainly been instances of unwise parents brain damaging or killing
their young children with faddy vegan/vegetarian diets.

https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/11/vegan-diets-could-be-damaging-childrens-health-nutritionists-warn-6630965/

Yes indeed.

And as Tom pointed out, there are different degrees of idealism
and fanaticism in diets.  Avoiding eggs and dairy food makes it
harder to get all the right nutrients.  For the folks that add in
"trendy" intolerances, misunderstood ideas about "ecological" food,
etc., it's quite easy to miss out on important foodstuffs.

Not eating all animal products is vegan and that's not me.  So I
don't care what others do.  I especially don't care about the drama
of other people's eating disorders.

Fair enough.  That's kind of what I meant about talking at cross purposes in
this thread.  No one has been suggesting that /you/ need to take special
precautions in your diet - I'm convinced you eat a healthy diet as it is.  But
there is no doubt that /some/ vegetarians need to take more care than they do.

Vegans in a modern hygienic environment are typically in danger of lacking
vitamin B. Flour mites protect those in the third world.

The other possibility is ingesting shit.

Humans and other animals have B12-producing bacteria
in their colon. Unfortunately we absorb B12 in the small
intestine, which is upstream of our colon. But downstream
of other people's colon

I wonder whether that is a source of copraphagous behaviour
some animals, including chimpanzees? Probably not.

Some people seem to survive on the most bizarre and limited diets.  I remember
reading about someone who eats very little other than Nugatti (chocolate
spread with some hazelnuts - I don't know if it is just Norwegian or
international) on white bread.

That stuff is very good as rodent bait. Sold as Nutella here.

Peanut butter also works well, much better than cheese
in my experience.

 

[Ricky C]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 06/04/2020 10:54, Ricky C wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 4:20:48 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 06/04/2020 05:55, Ricky C wrote:
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 11:28:19 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman
wrote:

There's no perhaps about it. And being vegetarian takes rather
close attention to what you eat, if you want to stay healthy.
We evolved as omnivores, not plant eaters.

It does??? I think "rather close attention" is a bit of an
overstatement. There are very few essential nutrients that are
not common in plants. There are rather a lot that are not
present in meat at all so that the absence of meat in the diet is
not at all hard to compensate for.

What aspects of vegetarian diets do you find lacking?


Tom has given some key points.

So now I'm asking you.


The mistake some people make about vegetarianism is that they
simply cut out the meat, and don't replace it with an appropriate
variety of vegetable alternatives. They go from "fish and chips"
to "chips". A lot of people don't think very much about what they
eat, and in moving to a vegetarian diet they replace the meat with
the easiest alternatives, which are typically starchy foods (pasta,
potatoes, rice) rather than dairy products, eggs, nuts, beans,
pulses, wholegrain food, etc. They see "going vegetarian" as "not
eating meat" rather than "eating vegetables".

I had a lengthy and a bit heated discussion with someone here on this
issue some time back. We were talking about protein and the numbers
weren't adding up. Turns out he was talking about some hair brain
diet where right off the top some 20%-25% of the calories were
supplied by added fat! Sure, if you do that it is hard to get proper
nutrition.


That is, I think, the very definition of a "hair brain" diet - you have
trouble getting proper nutrition.

He wasn't promoting it. He was saying he knows people who eat poorly and because they insist on eating vegan they don't get proper nutrition, in particular protein. I think he said their main food item was a vegan pizza.

So he was right in that if you eat poorly, it is easier to not get proper protein eating vegan than carnivore with that huge overload of protein. But if you eat poorly, there are a whole host of nutrients you are likely to be coming up short on.

In some countries, vegetarianism is very common, and there is
plenty of appropriate food available. It's easy to live as a
vegetarian in the UK, and (I assume) the USA. Here in Norway, it
has become easier in recent years but even just ten years ago it
was hard to get basic protein sources like soya. When I moved here
25+ years ago, I quickly realised that it was vastly easier to add
fish to my diet than to remain vegetarian.

You are showing your ignorance of protein. If you eat 100%
vegetarian and don't include a bunch of processed crap, you will have
to work at not meeting your requirements for protein and all the
essential amino acids. Everything you eat has protein and sufficient
amounts. The only trick is getting all the essential amino acids.
But as it turns out there are only a handful of vegetables that are
not protein complete. So unless your diet is mainly sweet potatoes
or a very small number of less common veggies, you can't miss your
protein requirements.

I am not ignorant about protein, nor showing an ignorance. Yes, pretty
much everything you eat has protein - but the balance of different types
of proteins, and different groups of amino acids, is not evenly spread.
Most meats have a roughly similar balance to what we need (since the
animals need roughly the same balance themselves), but plants vary much
more.

"Evenly spread" is an issue raised by Frances Moore LappĂŠ in her book "Diet for a Small Planet". She was concerned that we could feed the world better by eating plants rather than raising plants to feed animals to be eaten. She was aware of the false bias that vegetable protein was somehow "inferior" (mostly from a 1950's study on rats which didn't apply to humans). Instead of trying to fight that head on, she decided to promote the idea of protein complementation by eating a variety of vegetables. But she never said this was REQUIRED!!! It was a feint, a ruse, a slight of hand. There is no need to "balance" the essential amino acids any more than the other nutrients you eat. You simply need to eat ENOUGH of each one and vegetables supply enough of each of the nine essential amino acids.

So there is zero point in talking about balancing the essential amino acids.. As I've said, there are a very few vegetables that are not protein complete, the sweet potato being the most common. So there is no need what so ever to give a thought to getting enough protein on a vegan diet... unless you have a sweet potato fetish.

Your body can synthesise most amino acids if they are lacking, but it is
more efficient to get them directly.

I don't think I've ever seen an efficiency requirement listed for nutrition! It's not an issue.

So as a vegetarian you want to eat
beans, pulses, grains, leafy vegetables, mushrooms, nuts and seeds - eat
a mixture, and you have all you need. This is not a problem for "real"
vegetarians, who like vegetables and are happy to make proper meals.

This takes us back to Frances Moore LappĂŠ and her head fake! You seem to have conflated this with a concept of "efficiency". Neither is relevant since vegetables (with the exceptions noted) are protein and essential amino acid complete.

The recommendations above also apply to a carnivore because protein is not the only nutrient.

But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are not
used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained. Your concepts of protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected from whatever silly sources you have used.

It is particularly a
problem for children who are pushed into being vegetarian by parents, as
it is very common for kids to have a limited range of vegetables that
they like. (In particular, it is common to have a strong dislike for
leafy green vegetables.)

Yes, that can be a problem for nutrition in general, but not protein specifically. This is a very hard thought to exterminate because it has been repeated by so many for so long.

Soya is by no means an essential for a vegetarian diet. But it happens
to contain a wide variety and large quantity of proteins, as well as
having a texture that is good for shaping, and an "umnami" taste. This
means it can form the basis of vegetarian mince, chunks, sausages,
burgers, etc.

Sure it can be a turkey shaped sculpture as your centerpiece, but it isn't needed for protein nutrition.

BTW, looking it up seems to say soya is just soybeans or maybe you mean a soybean protein extract? So you are saying that veggies have good protein, just not enough? Ok, but you have never researched it yourself. Put in an hour or so and look up the amino acid content of wheat, corn and beans and get back to me about which one you can't live on for protein.

I'm not sure what soya is, but if it's tofu, yuck! I eat it
sometimes, but not because it has any nutritional benefit. I bought
a bunch a while back to see if I could cook it to taste good and
decided it was crap. So over half of it is still in my fridge in
sealed packs. Does it have a point?

Soya is not tofu, no. Tofu is fermented bean curds, and I am not fond
of it at all. It needs a lot of marinating or sauce to get any kind of
taste, and you are stuck with the squashy texture. (It is popular in
the far east.) Soya originates in a related plant, but is handled very
differently.

It's also totally unnecessary.

And as Tom pointed out, there are different degrees of idealism
and fanaticism in diets. Avoiding eggs and dairy food makes it
harder to get all the right nutrients. For the folks that add in
"trendy" intolerances, misunderstood ideas about "ecological" food,
etc., it's quite easy to miss out on important foodstuffs.

Not eating all animal products is vegan and that's not me. So I
don't care what others do. I especially don't care about the drama
of other people's eating disorders.


Fair enough. That's kind of what I meant about talking at cross
purposes in this thread. No one has been suggesting that /you/ need to
take special precautions in your diet - I'm convinced you eat a healthy
diet as it is. But there is no doubt that /some/ vegetarians need to
take more care than they do.

I'm not talking about MY eating habits. I'm talking about nutrition. There is nothing inherently unhealthy about a veggie diet other than vitamin B12.

/I/ don't find my basically vegetarian diet lacking, but there is
no doubt that some people do. Mind you, a fair number of
meat-eaters have very poor diet too.

Bingo! I actually know someone who eats meat and potatoes and maybe
bread if it's a hamburger bun. That's it. He will not eat another
vegetable.


Some people seem to survive on the most bizarre and limited diets. I
remember reading about someone who eats very little other than Nugatti
(chocolate spread with some hazelnuts - I don't know if it is just
Norwegian or international) on white bread.

I recall a TV report of a man who eats not a lot more than bacon. Yes, bizarre.

I have taste buds that stop me from binging that way.

--

Rick C.

-+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 07/04/2020 21:33, Ricky C wrote:

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are
not used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained. Your concepts of
protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected
from whatever silly sources you have used.

I don't think there is any point in taking this further.

I find many of your posts to have accurate and interesting information.
But once you start discussing things, you apparently prefer to
nitpick, ridicule, misinterpret and misunderstand. You seem to have a
determined goal to find a way to prove everyone else wrong, and count
that as higher than listening to what people say or thinking about what
they mean - to you, it is better to interpret things in the worst
possible way. I think perhaps you have been in s.e.d. too long - you
are too used to dealing with the likes of Larkin and as a result have
forgotten how to have an adult conversation.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 07/04/20 21:07, David Brown wrote:

On 07/04/2020 21:33, Ricky C wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are
not used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained.  Your concepts of
protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected
from whatever silly sources you have used.



I don't think there is any point in taking this further.

I find many of your posts to have accurate and interesting information.  But
once you start discussing things, you apparently prefer to nitpick, ridicule,
misinterpret and misunderstand.  You seem to have a determined goal to find a
way to prove everyone else wrong, and count that as higher than listening to
what people say or thinking about what they mean - to you, it is better to
interpret things in the worst possible way.  I think perhaps you have been in
s.e.d. too long - you are too used to dealing with the likes of Larkin and as a
result have forgotten how to have an adult conversation.

Pretty much.

Add a tendency to believe that the whole world is like
his environs, and that people think and behave as he
thinks he does. And then to refuse to absorb solid
evidence to the contrary.

 

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 1:46:15 PM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 07/04/20 21:07, David Brown wrote:
On 07/04/2020 21:33, Ricky C wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are
not used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained.  Your concepts of
protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected
from whatever silly sources you have used.



I don't think there is any point in taking this further.

I find many of your posts to have accurate and interesting information.  But
once you start discussing things, you apparently prefer to nitpick, ridicule,
misinterpret and misunderstand.  You seem to have a determined goal to find a
way to prove everyone else wrong, and count that as higher than listening to
what people say or thinking about what they mean - to you, it is better to
interpret things in the worst possible way.  I think perhaps you have been in
s.e.d. too long - you are too used to dealing with the likes of Larkin and as a
result have forgotten how to have an adult conversation.

Pretty much.

Add a tendency to believe that the whole world is like
his environs, and that people think and behave as he
thinks he does. And then to refuse to absorb solid
evidence to the contrary.

I just gave up arguing with him. I told him the conditions in China months ago that was like Italy and NYC. Deadly hospitals and 24/7 cremations. Fake Chinese numbers. All i got was insults. So, i just shut-up.

 

[Ricky C]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 4:07:25 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 07/04/2020 21:33, Ricky C wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are
not used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained. Your concepts of
protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected
from whatever silly sources you have used.



I don't think there is any point in taking this further.

I find many of your posts to have accurate and interesting information.
But once you start discussing things, you apparently prefer to
nitpick, ridicule, misinterpret and misunderstand. You seem to have a
determined goal to find a way to prove everyone else wrong, and count
that as higher than listening to what people say or thinking about what
they mean - to you, it is better to interpret things in the worst
possible way. I think perhaps you have been in s.e.d. too long - you
are too used to dealing with the likes of Larkin and as a result have
forgotten how to have an adult conversation.

I reviewed my post and the only part I can find that would remotely be offensive in the way you describe is this.

<<< you >>>

But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are not
used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

<<< me >>>
Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained. Your concepts of protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected from whatever silly sources you have used.

Those are facts. You have made many statements with no basis in nutrition and I have explained in excruciating detail how and why they are wrong.

The big problem many people have is believing information readily available on the web simply because it is repeated so often, even when wrong. I don't have much tolerance for that.

I can't do anything about your hurt feelings on the matter. You can. Stop believing everything you read even if it comes from what appear to be reliable sources. Require actual evidence. If this sounds offensive to you there's nothing I can do about it. This is reality.

--

Rick C.

-+-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[mpm]

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:04:56 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

From Rick C's point of view, which isn't one to be emulated.

Humm, why couldn't Rick C's point of view be emulated?
How much memory could that possibly take?

I'm thinking my old Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer would do a nice job of that.


10 BEGIN
20 IF RICK=CORRECT
30 SET SMUGFACTOR=1
40 ELSE
50 SET ASSHOLEFACTOR=100
60 ENDIF
70 END

You could probably just loop it.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, mpm wrote:

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:04:56 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

From Rick C's point of view, which isn't one to be emulated.


Humm, why couldn't Rick C's point of view be emulated?
How much memory could that possibly take?

I'm thinking my old Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer would do a nice job of that.


10 BEGIN
20 IF RICK=CORRECT
30 SET SMUGFACTOR=1
40 ELSE
50 SET ASSHOLEFACTOR=100
60 ENDIF
70 END

You could probably just loop it.

This is a better explanation of him and some people on SED:

<https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/444/120/for_gallery_v2/97785d53.jpg?1586265615>

This will send him into deep denial:

<https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2020/04/07/michigan-democrat-trump-and-hydroxychloroquine-saved-my-life-n2566448?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad=&bcid=92b6300c94cfc1d7999c356da9d02c95&recip=28500463>

 

mpm <mpmillard@aol.com> wrote in
news:1d9a11fa-808c-4095-b9e9-4fb466f6342f@googlegroups.com:

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 7:28:18 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell
wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, mpm wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:04:56 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman
wrote:

From Rick C's point of view, which isn't one to be emulated.


Humm, why couldn't Rick C's point of view be emulated?
How much memory could that possibly take?

I'm thinking my old Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer would do a
nice job of that.


10 BEGIN
20 IF RICK=CORRECT
30 SET SMUGFACTOR=1
40 ELSE
50 SET ASSHOLEFACTOR=100
60 ENDIF
70 END

You could probably just loop it.


This is a better explanation of him and some people on SED:

https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/444/120
/for_gallery_v2/97785d53.jpg?1586265615

This will send him into deep denial:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2020/04/07/michigan-democ
rat-trump-and-hydroxychloroquine-saved-my-life-n2566448?utm_source
=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad=&bcid=
92b6300c94cfc1d7999c356da9d02c95&recip=28500463

It may put him in denial, but it is still only one case, and
therefore pseudo-anecdotal. (The personal account of the recovery
is itself a fact, is it not?, which is why I would be a little
reluctant to say is purely anecdotal.)

Either way, I'd have to agree: Not significant enough to matter
(outside of the Whitsett family, of course.)

We are all doomed. Because people are mostly idiots.

<https://youtu.be/lSFwH0BVd3Q?t=255>

 

[mpm]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 7:28:18 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, mpm wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:04:56 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

From Rick C's point of view, which isn't one to be emulated.


Humm, why couldn't Rick C's point of view be emulated?
How much memory could that possibly take?

I'm thinking my old Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer would do a nice job of that.


10 BEGIN
20 IF RICK=CORRECT
30 SET SMUGFACTOR=1
40 ELSE
50 SET ASSHOLEFACTOR=100
60 ENDIF
70 END

You could probably just loop it.


This is a better explanation of him and some people on SED:

https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/444/120/for_gallery_v2/97785d53.jpg?1586265615

This will send him into deep denial:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2020/04/07/michigan-democrat-trump-and-hydroxychloroquine-saved-my-life-n2566448?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad=&bcid=92b6300c94cfc1d7999c356da9d02c95&recip=28500463

It may put him in denial, but it is still only one case, and therefore pseudo-anecdotal. (The personal account of the recovery is itself a fact, is it not?, which is why I would be a little reluctant to say is purely anecdotal.)

Either way, I'd have to agree: Not significant enough to matter (outside of the Whitsett family, of course.)

 

[Chris]

On 8/04/2020 8:55 am, mpm wrote:

On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:04:56 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

From Rick C's point of view, which isn't one to be emulated.


Humm, why couldn't Rick C's point of view be emulated?
How much memory could that possibly take?

I'm thinking my old Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer would do a nice job of that.


10 BEGIN
20 IF RICK=CORRECT
30 SET SMUGFACTOR=1
40 ELSE
50 SET ASSHOLEFACTOR=100
60 ENDIF
70 END

You could probably just loop it.

Indenting BASIC??

--
Chris

 

[mpm]

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 9:12:16 PM UTC-4, Chris wrote:

On 8/04/2020 8:55 am, mpm wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:04:56 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

From Rick C's point of view, which isn't one to be emulated.


Humm, why couldn't Rick C's point of view be emulated?
How much memory could that possibly take?

I'm thinking my old Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer would do a nice job of that.


10 BEGIN
20 IF RICK=CORRECT
30 SET SMUGFACTOR=1
40 ELSE
50 SET ASSHOLEFACTOR=100
60 ENDIF
70 END

You could probably just loop it.

Indenting BASIC??

--
Chris

Good catch.
Been a while.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:28:18 AM UTC+10, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:55:44 PM UTC-4, mpm wrote:
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 9:04:56 AM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

From Rick C's point of view, which isn't one to be emulated.


Humm, why couldn't Rick C's point of view be emulated?
How much memory could that possibly take?

I'm thinking my old Timex/Sinclair 1000 computer would do a nice job of that.


10 BEGIN
20 IF RICK=CORRECT
30 SET SMUGFACTOR=1
40 ELSE
50 SET ASSHOLEFACTOR=100
60 ENDIF
70 END

You could probably just loop it.


This is a better explanation of him and some people on SED:

https://d26horl2n8pviu.cloudfront.net/pictures/images/000/444/120/for_gallery_v2/97785d53.jpg?1586265615

This will send him into deep denial:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2020/04/07/michigan-democrat-trump-and-hydroxychloroquine-saved-my-life-n2566448?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad=&bcid=92b6300c94cfc1d7999c356da9d02c95&recip=28500463

Snake oil salesmen can always find satisfied customers. If you are dumb enough to take Trump seriously, you are dumb enough to think that snake oil he was selling at the time did the job that your immune system managed on its own.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[David Brown]

On 07/04/2020 23:05, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 1:46:15 PM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 07/04/20 21:07, David Brown wrote:
On 07/04/2020 21:33, Ricky C wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are
not used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained.  Your concepts of
protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected
from whatever silly sources you have used.



I don't think there is any point in taking this further.

I find many of your posts to have accurate and interesting information.  But
once you start discussing things, you apparently prefer to nitpick, ridicule,
misinterpret and misunderstand.  You seem to have a determined goal to find a
way to prove everyone else wrong, and count that as higher than listening to
what people say or thinking about what they mean - to you, it is better to
interpret things in the worst possible way.  I think perhaps you have been in
s.e.d. too long - you are too used to dealing with the likes of Larkin and as a
result have forgotten how to have an adult conversation.

Pretty much.

Add a tendency to believe that the whole world is like
his environs, and that people think and behave as he
thinks he does. And then to refuse to absorb solid
evidence to the contrary.

I just gave up arguing with him. I told him the conditions in China months ago that was like Italy and NYC. Deadly hospitals and 24/7 cremations. Fake Chinese numbers. All i got was insults. So, i just shut-up.

The difference is, most of what you said was wrong, exaggerated, or out
of context.

The Chinese "information wall" leaks like a sieve. There are plenty of
westerns in China, and plenty of dissidents - if the Chinese authorities
were covering up new outbreaks or more infections or deaths from
Covid-19, the information would get out. The Chinese authorities are
happy to lie if it is useful and they expect to get away with it - they
won't lie when they know they'd get caught. (Unlike the current USA
leader, who doesn't care how obvious his lies are.)

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 07/04/20 22:05, edward.ming.lee@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 1:46:15 PM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 07/04/20 21:07, David Brown wrote:
On 07/04/2020 21:33, Ricky C wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are not
used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained. Your concepts of
protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected from
whatever silly sources you have used.



I don't think there is any point in taking this further.

I find many of your posts to have accurate and interesting information.
But once you start discussing things, you apparently prefer to nitpick,
ridicule, misinterpret and misunderstand. You seem to have a determined
goal to find a way to prove everyone else wrong, and count that as higher
than listening to what people say or thinking about what they mean - to
you, it is better to interpret things in the worst possible way. I think
perhaps you have been in s.e.d. too long - you are too used to dealing
with the likes of Larkin and as a result have forgotten how to have an
adult conversation.

Pretty much.

Add a tendency to believe that the whole world is like his environs, and
that people think and behave as he thinks he does. And then to refuse to
absorb solid evidence to the contrary.

I just gave up arguing with him. I told him the conditions in China months
ago that was like Italy and NYC. Deadly hospitals and 24/7 cremations. Fake
Chinese numbers. All i got was insults. So, i just shut-up.

You provided assertions without decent rationale or evidence.
They looked like political or philosophical arguments rather
than medical/epidemiological arguments.

That doesn't mean they are wrong, just less credible.

 

[David Brown]

On 08/04/2020 00:08, Ricky C wrote:

On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 4:07:25 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 07/04/2020 21:33, Ricky C wrote:
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 6:00:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:


But it /is/ a problem for "stop eating meat" vegetarians who are
not used to eating much in the way of vegetables.

Pure, unsupported nonsense as I have explained. Your concepts of
protein nutrition are not founded in fact and need to be corrected
from whatever silly sources you have used.



I don't think there is any point in taking this further.

I find many of your posts to have accurate and interesting information.
But once you start discussing things, you apparently prefer to
nitpick, ridicule, misinterpret and misunderstand. You seem to have a
determined goal to find a way to prove everyone else wrong, and count
that as higher than listening to what people say or thinking about what
they mean - to you, it is better to interpret things in the worst
possible way. I think perhaps you have been in s.e.d. too long - you
are too used to dealing with the likes of Larkin and as a result have
forgotten how to have an adult conversation.

I reviewed my post and the only part I can find that would remotely be offensive in the way you describe is this.

I can't do anything about your hurt feelings on the matter.

I don't have hurt feelings, or feel offended. It would be silly for
someone to join s.e.d. if they are easily offended, or if they let the
other posters here bother them. That would be like joining a fight club
and complaining about getting punched.

So why did I make that post, if it wasn't to complain about
ill-treatment or that I feel you were unfair? I did it to point out to
you where I see a problem - something that /you/ can change, if you
understand my point and agree with it. It is intended as constructive
criticism. (And I don't claim to be free of exactly the same flaws.)

Your posts are often factual, sometimes with references - but like
anyone else, much of what you "know" comes from personal experience,
things you have read, accumulated knowledge. That's fine - that's how
human knowledge works.

Your problem comes from your failure to accept that in others.

Any time someone has an opinion or experience that is even marginally
different from yours, the reaction is a demand for references, followed
rapidly by insults, ridicule, and mockery.

You don't have a monopoly on truth. You don't have a monopoly on facts.
You don't have a monopoly on experience. You have a thoughtful and
analytic mind, and are good at finding reliable sources and excluding
poor ones. But you are very bad at listening to others and learning
from them - as a consequence, you have a very blinkered view of many
things. You assume that how things are for you personally, applies to
everyone - regardless of the country, or any other aspect of the people
involved. And you reject and ridicule anyone who contradicts you here.
Even if you happen to be right, you express yourself in a way designed
to put people down - which can never help to get your point across.

This all makes it extremely tedious and frustrating trying to have a
discussion with you. There are plenty of people in s.e.d. that you know
will descend quickly to swearing, or regurgitating propaganda, or
blindly denying reality. While one might try to correct these people,
you know fine you'll never learn anything from them. With you, the
frustration comes because I know that you have useful things to say -
but you push everyone away from you.


I have seen this in a great many discussions involving you and other
people, not just myself, in several groups. This is a long-term pattern.