What are some car-repair jobs you always wished you could do

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote:

Clifford Heath wrote:

I suspect that better computer simulation, especially thermal
modeling, has the most to do with it. There are manufacturing
breakthroughs also, like bearing seals that actually seal the
bearings, and better materials. Better anti-corrosion chemistry.
Stuff like that.

Oh. That's interesting. What you're saying is that the manufacturers are
using computers to make cars, which helps make better cars.

That may very well be the case, since computers can be used to easily hone
quality, bit by bit by bit, simply because of the inherent re-use that
computers easily allow.

You're right but I don't understand why we used to pack wheel bearings
periodically and now we don't. Who doesn't remember glopping grease on your
palm and then slapping a bearing through that grease?

Better seals, better greases, better bearing materials - they allcombine.

A kid of 30 or 40 years old doesn't know what we're talking about.

Likewise, who hasn't squirted grease into a ball joint until it squirted
back out of the pregnant rubber cup making farting sounds? Or a driveshaft
u-joint where is just squirted out noiselessly.

What can allow grease out can let contaminants in. Also, ball joints are
made of much better materials these days.

What's with bearings nowadays. Why don't wheel bearings need to be packed
anymore and u-joints not need lubrication and ball joints not need it?

A u-joint that doesn't have angular movement *will* need lubricating.
The needle rollers in a u-joint must roll a little else the grease will
dry up.

What did they do differently?

Better seals.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I understand the magic of computers getting more reliable but what's the
magic in cars getting more reliable?
That's easy - Computers!!!

Computers help make a lot of things not break.

For example, fuel injection and a distributorless single coil per spark
plug with a nice high voltage all by themselves prevented a billion
tuneups.

The EPA making exhaust systems have to last longer under warranty made the
manufacturers make them out of stainless steel instead of pre-rusted
Detroit steel.

There are computers in plenty of other places (for example, ABS), but other
than the fuel injection, where did computers play a role in engine
longevity?

I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't see how they play a role in engine
longevity other than in the tuneup arena where they were an immense help.

They control the spark timing to prevent detonation and pre-ignition.
The small amount of combustion detonation sufficient to trigger the
knock sensor serves to remove potentially harmful combustion chamber
deposits.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

When was the last time you replaced the old "points plugs and
condenser" That used to be a once or twice a year thing.


Don't forget better lubricants too.

Are the lubricants really contributing to longevity of the engine?

The main lubricant, of course, is motor oil, which has gone from SB to SC,
to SD to SE .... now to somewhere around SL, SM, SN ... but has *that* been
contributing to engine life by a lot?

The other lubricants, of course, are the gear oils, but again, GL4 and GL5
are pretty old stuff.

I don't remember seeing Zerk fittings lately, so I think one thing with
respect to lubrication is they made permanently lubricated driveshaft
u-joints and suspension balljoints.

But really. Do we have any evidence that lubrication is why engines seem to
last longer nowadays?

The removal of the carburetor meant that the sump wasn't being
contaminated by fuel wash from incomplete combustion when the engine is
cold. The much finer fuel spray from injectors ensured reliable cold
start and improved warmup time.
Positive crankcase ventilation removed any acidic components and
prevented carbon buildup in the oil.

--

Xeno

 

On Sunday, 5 November 2017 03:32:26 UTC, RS Wood wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

No, it's because of advances in metalurgy, lubrication,
manufacturing, and to a VERY large extent, advances in engine
controls.

I'm not going to disagree that engines seem to last twice what they used
to, but is metallurgy really different? There's a lot more aluminum
nowadays, and certainly too much plastic, but rubber is rubber and steel is
steel and I don't think either got all that much better in the interim.

Engine controls maybe. But they're mostly emission related nowadays.

The actual danger zone parts are the oil pressure sensor, coolant
temperature sensor, oil lever sensor, etc., and I don't think they're all
that sophisticated compared to the days of yore, do you?

the computers that read them are though. They can tell when the sensor isn't behaving right.

Lead free gasoline has a LARGE effect on the improvement of engine
life, as along with the lead, phosphorous was also virtually
eliminated in the fuel.
This means a lot less acids in the oil, exhaust, etc.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... really? The fuel contributes to engine life?
I don't dispute. I just don't compute.

With the replacement of carb and choke with EFI, there
is less fuel dilution - and electronic ignition and timing advance
just adds to the improvements. In 1959, the auto was still an
adolescent - it has matured over the ensuing decades in SO many ways.

I don't disagree that the carburetor is gone, thank God, but it's still in
airplanes and they seem to do fine with them (small planes that is).

While EFI is great stuff, I don't see that the longevity of an engine is
dependent on the fuel volatilization method.

Rust and corrosion control has come SO far, even since the eighties
that there is really no reason a car body should rust today - and the
bodies, although MUCH lighter, do last 2, 3, even 5 times as long.

This one I agree with you on, but I blame Detroit for making crap that they
*knew* was crap. Painting can't be all that sophisticated today compared to
yesterday. It just can't be. They just did a lousy job before, I think.

competition has meant better rustproofing is required to maintain a good reputation

But then again, painting is a job I never did, so, maybe I didn't learn
anything!

Car finishes as well - was not uncommon for a 3 or 4 year old car to
require a repaint in the old days - now MOST go to the scrapyard
wearing their original coat of paint - - - - even with water based
paints!!!!

I wish I knew more about painting.

Often TWICE a year - spring and fall tuneups were common.

I agree that points were a weak link that just had to go. I'm not sure why
timing changed, because, as I recall, we twisted the distributor to time
the engine where, the distributor would have no reason to twist back once
locked down.

the points gap changed due to sparking & physical wear in the mechanism. That changed the timing.

I think they also used lower-voltage coils in those days, where the wires
seemed paradoxically to require replacement more often. I remember once
diagnosing a misfire where I accidentally worked until it got dark and then
realized there was a light show going on with all the sparks to ground.

Heh heh heh ... working on coils and ignition wires teaches a youngster
with a steel screwdriver a *lot* about electricity wanting to get to
ground!

Now, they're "almost" lifetime parts because they don't exist.
Even spark plugs go 100,000 km plus - - -

Oh yeah. I forgot about spark plugs. I had a two-stroke motorcycle, for
example, which couldn't go five hundred miles on a set of plugs.

Now you can easily go 100K where the technology isn't all that fancy on a
plug. It's just a chunk of platinum-plated metal near a few J hooks of cold
steel. I think the higher voltages helped, which, again, paradoxically,
you'd think the higher coil voltages would eat the plugs faster ... not
slower by the process of electrodialectric machining.

plug gap opening up or carbon on the insulator could take out the spark on old ignition systems. Not so much now.

Better design, engine controls, lubricants, and no more leaded gas.

Well, it's *something* that makes car engines last twice what they used to,
but I don't see that we've nailed it yet.

I still think it's simply that Japanaese cars existing made Detroit build
better engines overall.

Very much. Also decades of experience, time proves what works well & what doesn't.


NT

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

No, it's because of advances in metalurgy, lubrication,
manufacturing, and to a VERY large extent, advances in engine
controls.

I'm not going to disagree that engines seem to last twice what they used
to, but is metallurgy really different? There's a lot more aluminum
nowadays, and certainly too much plastic, but rubber is rubber and steel is
steel and I don't think either got all that much better in the interim.

Engine controls maybe. But they're mostly emission related nowadays.

The actual danger zone parts are the oil pressure sensor, coolant
temperature sensor, oil lever sensor, etc., and I don't think they're all
that sophisticated compared to the days of yore, do you?

Lead free gasoline has a LARGE effect on the improvement of engine
life, as along with the lead, phosphorous was also virtually
eliminated in the fuel.
This means a lot less acids in the oil, exhaust, etc.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... really? The fuel contributes to engine life?
I don't dispute. I just don't compute.

With the replacement of carb and choke with EFI, there
is less fuel dilution - and electronic ignition and timing advance
just adds to the improvements. In 1959, the auto was still an
adolescent - it has matured over the ensuing decades in SO many ways.

I don't disagree that the carburetor is gone, thank God, but it's still in
airplanes and they seem to do fine with them (small planes that is).

While EFI is great stuff, I don't see that the longevity of an engine is
dependent on the fuel volatilization method.

Rust and corrosion control has come SO far, even since the eighties
that there is really no reason a car body should rust today - and the
bodies, although MUCH lighter, do last 2, 3, even 5 times as long.

This one I agree with you on, but I blame Detroit for making crap that they
*knew* was crap. Painting can't be all that sophisticated today compared to
yesterday. It just can't be. They just did a lousy job before, I think.

But then again, painting is a job I never did, so, maybe I didn't learn
anything!

Car finishes as well - was not uncommon for a 3 or 4 year old car to
require a repaint in the old days - now MOST go to the scrapyard
wearing their original coat of paint - - - - even with water based
paints!!!!

I wish I knew more about painting.

Often TWICE a year - spring and fall tuneups were common.

I agree that points were a weak link that just had to go. I'm not sure why
timing changed, because, as I recall, we twisted the distributor to time
the engine where, the distributor would have no reason to twist back once
locked down.

The timing changes because the points gap alters. Put in an electronic
aftermarket replacement for points with, say, an optical or magnetic
sensor, and the timing never varied. Except for gear wear on the
distributor but that's over a very long time span.

I think they also used lower-voltage coils in those days, where the wires
seemed paradoxically to require replacement more often. I remember once
diagnosing a misfire where I accidentally worked until it got dark and then
realized there was a light show going on with all the sparks to ground.

Heh heh heh ... working on coils and ignition wires teaches a youngster
with a steel screwdriver a *lot* about electricity wanting to get to
ground!

Now, they're "almost" lifetime parts because they don't exist.
Even spark plugs go 100,000 km plus - - -

Oh yeah. I forgot about spark plugs. I had a two-stroke motorcycle, for
example, which couldn't go five hundred miles on a set of plugs.

Two strokes are always harder on spark plugs.

Now you can easily go 100K where the technology isn't all that fancy on a
plug. It's just a chunk of platinum-plated metal near a few J hooks of cold
steel. I think the higher voltages helped, which, again, paradoxically,
you'd think the higher coil voltages would eat the plugs faster ... not
slower by the process of electrodialectric machining.

A lot of technology in spark plug, especially in the metalurgical side.

Better design, engine controls, lubricants, and no more leaded gas.

Well, it's *something* that makes car engines last twice what they used to,
but I don't see that we've nailed it yet.

I still think it's simply that Japanaese cars existing made Detroit build
better engines overall.

Most did - but there were (natable) exceptions.
Also, how long have you been driving? What is the oldest car you have
owned??

Most of us old timers have at the very least a million miles under our
belts. When we were kids, all our cars started at 10 or 15 years old, where
that was new to us.

In my salesman days, a car lasted 3 years, but now I'm back to the 15 or 20
year range since I retired long ago.

Such things change over time.


Luckily, 2WD RWD cars spread out the "stuff" in manageable ways.

They ARE easier to repair - in general.

I found that 2WD RWD cars are a LOT easier, for the most part, and also if
you have the option, the six cylinder options when an 8-cylinder option
exists or the 4 cylinder option when a 6 cylinder option exists is a
Godsend because you have so much more room in that engine bay.

Otherwise, time isn't the issue.
You don't have a wife????

She's somewhere in the garden, not the garage.
The kids have kids already too, so they're off somewhere to play.

I get to see them on Thanksgiving though. Thank God for holidays!
You pay for their school. You pay for their grad school.
And then you only get to see them on holidays.
Or when they need their cars fixed!

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 2:32 PM, RS Wood wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

but with
brakes there's the whole shebang from pads and sensors to calipers and
rotors and bearings and speed sensors, and abs intricacies.

The ones I did were simple. The hard part was remembering how the damn
springs on the drums went. I couldn't believe how easy pads were; it
took me longer to find the C-clamp than to do the work :-(

That's the thing about brakes that gets me.

Most people I know pay upwards of $1K for a 4-wheel brake job at the
dealer, where (a) I would never go to the dealer, and (b) I would never pay
even $100 for someone else to do a brake job.

Most brake jobs are so easy that it's not funny since disc brakes are so
easy to work on that it's not even close to funny. Drum brakes are harder
simply because of the intricacies of the springs, but they're only harder
because disc brakes are so easy.

Pads cost about $50 per set and all you aim for is FF or GG or FG, or
whatever cold/hot heat rating you want. That's another thing about doing a
job yourself, which is parts selection.

If you do it yourself, you have to buy the parts, and if you buy the parts
you figure out what matters.

Most of us follow the same rules for buying parts, do we not?
a. First we figure out what the OEM parts are, and, then,
b. We figure out how much it costs for better parts.

Sometimes the OEM parts are the best, but just as often, the aftermarket
parts are better.

In the case of brake pads, we look up the cold/hot friction ratings for the
OEM pads. Let's say that they're FG. Then we look at the aftermarket for
better pads. Let's say we find GG pads. We look at the cost difference.
And we usually buy the better pad.

As for rotors, there's a truckload of hype around slotted, drilled, drilled
and slotted, etc., where at least motorcycle rotors are stainless steel and
where looks matter a lot. On cars, looks only matter if you have wheels
that show off your brakes, so drilled and slotted or all that other purely
pretty stuff doesn't matter. Solid is the way to go. The cheaper the
better. For example, you can get Brembo rotors for less than the OEM
rotors, where a rotor is a rotor is a rotor.

You understand the efficacy of slotted and/or drilled rotors the first
time you experience brake fade.

About $50 per axle for pads, and about $50 per wheel for rotors, and you're
out the door with parts (a few dabs of high-temperature grease later).

Notice that when you do the work yourself, you LEARN what matters. If
you're smart about it, you don't fall for the marketing hype.

And one more thing. Since you do the work yourself, you buy the tools,
where brake jobs don't necessarily take special tools (although calipers
sometimes need oddball-sized hex wrenches on German cars).

All you need is a mic to measure thickness and a dial gauge and stand to
measure runout, and if you're doing drums, two types of brake-spring
pliers, and you're good to go with tools.

One more thing, the word "brake warp" or "rotor warp" is banished from your
vocabulary. Anyone who uses those two words, is simply proving they're an
utter fool.

That's the kind of stuff you learn by doing the job yourself.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 2:47 PM, RS Wood wrote:

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

I still don't see how the *gas* has anything to do with engines lasting
longer. Maybe it does, but I don't see the connection.

Lead free along with EFI is why plugs last forever.

That's an enigma to me, but if I think it through, EFI allowed for higher
voltages which I'd think would melt a spark plug even more than the lower
voltages, but maybe what happened is a higher voltage zap keeps the plugs
from fouling. The zap may even be shorter for all I know.

In the emissions world, a longer zap is what you need. A short zap can
lead to a misfire so that's a no no. In order to get a longer term
spark, there arose a need to go to high energy ignition systems.

The lack of tetraethyl lead, I guess, besides meaning harder valve seats,
means fewer deposits on the plugs I guess, where deposits that conduct
electricity cause the voltage to bleed off down the center electrode to the
threads.

Is that how the lead and efi helped plugs last forever?

The enigma is that the higher voltage "should" eat the metal faster.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 3:04 PM, RS Wood wrote:

tom wrote:

The rubbing block wears down. The points gap gets smaller.

Yeah. I forgot. I even have in my toolbox a set of distributor bolt
wrenches, one curved and the other kind of L shaped.

I wonder if I'll ever find a use for them again? I should put them in the
same box as the dwellmeter, timing light, ignition bumper, spark plug gap
gauges, spark plug sandblaster and grease gun.

What, no vacuum gauge?

What's odd is that those are all *oldtimer tools* where I don't think there
are any newtimer tools other than a good OBD scanner and, if you're so
inclined, the bluetooth and computer based ECU readers.

Are there any newtimer repair tools that we never needed in the past that
we need now?

I remember I have a fuel-injection light bulb which snapped into the fuel
injector but that hasn't been used itself in decades.

Other than OBD scanners, what is a *new* tool that we have needed that we
didn't use in the days of yore?

*High impedance digital multimeters*. Anyone who dicks around electrical
stuff on a car these days with a test light is just looking for trouble.

A digital oscilloscope would be nice.

Also some logic probes.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 3:15 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 11/4/2017 9:32 PM, RS Wood wrote:
We were talking about timing belts inside car engines.

The problem with timing belts on some engines is when they break, the
pistons can contact the valves, which is the dumbest bit of engineering I
have ever seen in my life.

A belt is a belt. The point I was trying to make, albeit awkwardly, was
visual inspection of the belt tells you nothing in most cases. You
replace the thing after N miles based on the mean time to failure. If
you have a timing belt that fails before that and an interference engine
you can plan on replacing valves too. There are many things on an
automobile that give you hints they should be replaced; timing belts
just break.

Timing chains used to be less dependable but the newer ones are greatly
improved. I'm happy my Toyota has a chain. I haven't researched it but I
do believe some manufacturers are going back to chains. Belts are
cheaper but pissed off customers aren't.

I have Toyotas precisely because they have a chain.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 3:19 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:20 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I understand the magic of computers getting more reliable but what's the
magic in cars getting more reliable?
That's easy - Computers!!!

Computers help make a lot of things not break.

For example, fuel injection and a distributorless single coil per spark
plug with a nice high voltage all by themselves prevented a billion
tuneups.

The EPA making exhaust systems have to last longer under warranty made the
manufacturers make them out of stainless steel instead of pre-rusted
Detroit steel.

There are computers in plenty of other places (for example, ABS), but other
than the fuel injection, where did computers play a role in engine
longevity?

I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't see how they play a role in engine
longevity other than in the tuneup arena where they were an immense help.


The computer controls fuel mixture and ignition timing, making the
engine burn more efficiently and more cleanly - reducing carbon
loading of the engine oil, as well as almost completely eliminating
fuel dilution and cyl wall washdown - which makes the rings last a lot
longer, as well as bearings and timing gears/chains/tensioners.

The vast majority of engine wear was caused in the startup and warmup
mode. Computer control has virtually eliminated those problems.
(mainly the elimination of the choke and better atomization of fuel
using port injection. GDI makes it almost an order of magnitude better
again.

Bzzztt. GDI has brought the scourge of carbon buildup back.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 3:38 PM, RS Wood wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

But really. Do we have any evidence that lubrication is why engines seem to
last longer nowadays?
The manufacturers and oil companies do.

I guess then, that the longevity is due to two things in general (so far).

1. Better lubricants and seals
2. Better fuels (for example detergents and loss of lead)

Interesting that it's not better design of engines.

It's also that but in order to understand the improvements you would
need to delve into the books on automotive engine design such as this
one I have in my library here;

http://www.springer.com/la/book/9783211377628



--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 3:40 PM, rickman wrote:

RS Wood wrote on 11/4/2017 11:55 PM:
rickman wrote:

The only plastic that I know of which lasts forever outside is whatever
plastic the garbage company uses for those blue, green, and gray
wheeled
bins!

That's your standard?  Things have to last "forever"???

I leave plastic stuff outside and within a year or two, it crumbles in my
hands. So two years is too short.

Meanwhile, the garbage bins last forever outside.

Why can they make a garbage bin last forever but not a Costco picnic
table?

Because they are making the table to sell at the lowest price while the
bin has a specification.  Price, stop buying things based on the price!
I bet you didn't even ask about the materials used in the table.  I can
assure you the city who bought the bin asked what it was made of.  So
the fault, really, is yours.

The city would have *specified* the bin requirements in the tender specs.

I wish *all* plastic things were made out of *that* plastic, especially
pool tools.

You can ask about the materials when you buy stuff.  It's not the
plastic,
but whether the plastic has UV resistance additives.

Is that what makes those garbage bins last forever outside?
If so, that's what I want in my picnic table from Costco!
And in all the pool equipment.

When you return the table tell them that... and you will be ignored
because they made a lot of money selling the same crap they sold last
year in spite of the few who returned them.


I still have to replace the exhaust system ever four years.  That part
hasn't changed.  If you know anything about why they fail, you would
understand the only alternative is stainless steel which is *much* more
expensive.

I used to patch mufflers, like we all did.

Illegal because the patches are crap and the rest of the muffler won't
last another six months.  My mufflers don't get leaks, the flange breaks
off on the pipe.  Try fixing that.

That's because the *internal* piping has rotted away placing *all*
loading on the flange.

And we all know what a pain it was to get the old ones off.
Forget about those u-bolt nuts ever twisting off.

But I haven't replaced a muffler in decades.
Why?
I'm not sure why.

Because it isn't worth it.  When any part of the exhaust system goes bad
you are better off replacing it all.


You could get a stainless steel exhaust system the first time
you replace it, but you would need to keep the vehicle for twenty
more years
to make it pay off.

I don't even look at the exhaust anymore, it's that reliable.
I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel.
Is it not?

No, it's not.  It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years.

Hmmm, Last car I had for 8 years, never touched the exhaust system.

--

Xeno

 

[Xeno]

On 5/11/2017 4:13 PM, RS Wood wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The aluminum alloying science has made leaps in the last 50 years -
and so has steelmaking and heat treating. Never heard of Cryo
treatment years ago. Never heard of powdered metal either. Lots more
chromium and moly and cobalt etc used in exotic steels today too.

Lots of good stuff there.

Synthetic rubbers and plastics have also improved in thousands of
ways in the last 50 years. This means seals , belts, hoses, etc can
ALL last MUCH longer than their older counterparts.

Good stuff there too.

Emission management , as I noted previously, does a lot more than make
cleaner air. How do you think we get as much horsepower out of a 2
liter engine today as we got out of 5 or 6 liter engines in the very
recent past???

Ok. Good stuff there too.

The oil pressure sensor has nothing to do with it until the engine
fails. The coolant temp sensors are much more accurate than they used
to be, and now they actually do something more than telling you if the
engine is overheating. The oil level sensor is also an afterthought
and basically un-necessary - as most engines will go over 3000 miles
without using ANY measurable amount of oil.

Gotta agree. Mine leaks not a drop.

You don't see it because you do not understand all the implications
of fuel mixture control.

Can't disagree with you.

There again, you have no comprehension of the inticacies of corrosion
control and metal primers etc - not to mention seam sealers. Goes WAY
beyond the surface coating, color and shine.

Gotta be true because rust buckets don't seem to exist anymore.


It's more the prep than the paint - but the paint has REALLY changed
in the last 20 years - more rhan in the previous 100.

See above. No rust buckets anymore so there is truth in there somewhere.

The timing changed when the points wore, among other things.

Yeah. I forgot. It has been, oh, how long since we adjusted timing?
Decades at the very least.

And you don't think plastics and rubbers have changed appreciably for
the better?
Maybe. I still see lots and lots of buna o-rings that should be viton.

Even back in the early seventies I was using wires that allowed me to
run my old Chrysler products with a carwash hose trained on the
ignition system. The cheapest wires today are better that those top
quality "space age" wires.

Gotta agree with you. Wires don't even exist much at all but those that do
exist, seem to last a long time nowadays. We used to replace ignition wires
with every second or third tuneup, as I recall.

I even bought the set where you cut them and made them to fit.
Dumb idea because they stunk the most.

And unleaded gas is one of the main reasons this is possible today.

I don't know enough to disagree.
Detergents (polyetheramines) probably helped too, Techron be known.

The platinum is a large part of this - you never saw platinum plugs
in the past. Iridium finewire plugs were the hot item for snowmobiles
and bikes back then - and they were PRICEY.

Must be the platinum because a plug is a simple thing.
I'm sure engineers fret about every little thing, but pretty much you buy
the right one and put it in. I never found anything useful about changing
the heat ratings. It's amazing to me that we don't gap them anymore though.

You'd wonder why the gap mattered in the days of yore and now it doesn't
matter. I don't get that.

High energy ignition systems, platinum electrodes.

Believe me, as someone who worked on Toyotas back in the very early
seventies, quality was not their strong point back then They rusted
like a ford (or worse) and they had metalurgy problems in their
aluminum heads, and a lot of other places. What made the difference is
they learned from their mistakes - the Japs have never really been
inventors - but they can refine a poor design into something fantastic
- that's what they do exremely well.

Yeah. I forgot about my "Z" cars (Datsun days). They were rust buckets.

Most cars were junk at 10 years back then. People didn't put on the
miles they do today, generally speaking, but I've put a LOT of
vehicles over the 200,000 mile mark in the past.

Yep. 10 years was about it. Now it's 20 years.
Double.

But if they have to work too hard, the bigger engine won't need as
much repair - so it sometimes more than ballances out.

Not gonna take you up on this one. There's no such thing as 'working
harder'. Just not gonna fly with me. The torque curve is the torque curve
and the gears do the fixing of that for me.

The SIZE is physically different.
I'm not gonna believe a small engine has to 'work harder' than a big engine
and so it won't last as long.

Nope. That's the one thing you're going to have to prove to me.
(The rest I believe you on.)

She doesn't have a "honey-do" list that, in her mind, takes priority
over the car repairs?? "you haven't got it fixed YET???" -

Yeah. But I don't think she even remembers my name anymore.


At least my oldest is back in the country most of the time now -
even though she's only been "home" for about 3 weeks since the middle
of September and she'll only be "home " for about 15 days between now
and Christmas. "home" being about 5 miles from here. She will be in
Africa and Asia the rest of the time (work)

That's another thing. My kids have been flying to other countries since
they were born. When did YOU first leave the country? I think I did when I
was in my thirties. Maybe late twenties. Boy oh boy though, did the
airplanes have service!

But that's another difference in the days of yore!

I first worked overseas when I was 26 years old.

--

Xeno

 

[RS Wood]

Xeno wrote:
> What, no vacuum gauge?

Ah. yes. I should get off my duff and just open the damn "tuneup" box.
<https://imgur.com/a/aRivO>

Ouch! Look at my horrid welds from circa late sixties early seventies!
<https://i.imgur.com/gCg8snj.jpg>

Here is the kit, neatly packed away, awaiting for my burial chamber:
<https://i.imgur.com/15legK6.jpg>

The vacuum gauge is at bottom right, next to the dwellmeter:
<https://i.imgur.com/aHSy27T.jpg>

Compression tester at left & dial-gauge TDC measurement gauge at left:
<https://i.imgur.com/qkPfJ8e.jpg>

Assorted feeler and gap gauges at top:
<https://i.imgur.com/XSW3lhK.jpg>

Does that kit look familiar to you?

*High impedance digital multimeters*. Anyone who dicks around electrical
stuff on a car these days with a test light is just looking for trouble.

For that, there is the Fluke DMM which is indispensable!

> A digital oscilloscope would be nice.

Yes. An oscilloscope & microscope & telescope have always been on my Xmas
wish list...

> Also some logic probes.
You're the second one to mention a "logic probe", which I think I used in
the early 70's for Texas Instruments TTL circuits.

But not for cars.

I'm not sure what you mean by "logic probe" for a circa 50s, 60s, 70s car.
Do you have an example on the net?

 

[RS Wood]

Xeno wrote:

You'd wonder why the gap mattered in the days of yore and now it doesn't
matter. I don't get that.

High energy ignition systems, platinum electrodes.

That makes sense that the voltage zap is higher voltage nowadays, so, I
guess the metal erosion was offset with the platinum cap.

Since spark plugs are cheap and yet, platinum is super expensive, that
platinum cap must be pretty thin, don't you think?

I just opened my tuneup kit, where those gap gauges are still there!
<https://i.imgur.com/15legK6.jpg>

But that's another difference in the days of yore!

I first worked overseas when I was 26 years old.

I think our kids and grandkids are more worldly at five years old than we
were at 20 in the days of yore!

 

[RS Wood]

Xeno wrote:

> I have Toyotas precisely because they have a chain.

I have to agree with you that if I knew a vehicle had a belt, and
especially if it was an interference engine, for me, that car would be
nearly worthless.

Just like FWD cars and tricked-out cars are, to me, nearly worthless.

 

[RS Wood]

Xeno wrote:

The timing changes because the points gap alters. Put in an electronic
aftermarket replacement for points with, say, an optical or magnetic
sensor, and the timing never varied. Except for gear wear on the
distributor but that's over a very long time span.

Thanks for reminding me of the days of yore.

Here's my ancient timing light to check all of that:
<https://i.imgur.com/XSW3lhK.jpg>

And my very first dwell checker which I don't even remember how to use:
<https://i.imgur.com/qkPfJ8e.jpg>

Because this dwellmeter was so much easier to read the value off of:
<https://i.imgur.com/aHSy27T.jpg>

> Two strokes are always harder on spark plugs.

Yup. They fouled. And then they fouled again. And again.
You got very good at filing them down to sharp edges.

> A lot of technology in spark plug, especially in the metalurgical side.
I'm not so naive to not know that there is a lot of engineering, even in
the rib and resistor design, but their actual use, when we put the correct
one in our vehicles, is pretty simple I think.

Spark. Spark. Spark. Spark. Spark .... (rinse, repeat).

 

[RS Wood]

Xeno wrote:

It's also that but in order to understand the improvements you would
need to delve into the books on automotive engine design such as this
one I have in my library here;

http://www.springer.com/la/book/9783211377628

It's interesting we all universally feel engines last longer, but I wonder
if it's not that the *car* lasts longer.

For example, tires last longer.
Ball joints and u-joints and wheel bearings last longer.
The body last longer.
The exhaust lasts longer.

What doesn't last longer on a car nowadays?

 

[RS Wood]

Xeno wrote:

The removal of the carburetor meant that the sump wasn't being
contaminated by fuel wash from incomplete combustion when the engine is
cold. The much finer fuel spray from injectors ensured reliable cold
start and improved warmup time.
Positive crankcase ventilation removed any acidic components and
prevented carbon buildup in the oil.

Those are interesting advantages of EFI which are:
a. Less gasoline dilution of cylinder walls
b. Less contamination of the oil

So, fundamentally, people seem to be saying that carburetors contaminated
everything more than does EFI, which reduced the life of the engine.

 

[RS Wood]

Xeno wrote:

GDI makes it almost an order of magnitude better
again.

Bzzztt. GDI has brought the scourge of carbon buildup back.

Googling for what you mean by "GDI"...
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection>

Pros and cons of gasoline direct injection...
<https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2015/02/pros-and-cons-of-direct-injection-engines/index.htm>

What's so great about gasoline direct injection anyway?
<https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/whats-so-great-about-direct-injection-abcs-of-car-tech/>