What are some car-repair jobs you always wished you could do

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/5/2017 1:29 AM, RS Wood wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Most are made of polypropelene.
Some are made of Polyethelene. The table was likely made of ABS orPVC

If it's that simple, what happened to the "UV coating" someone suggested?

Anyway, if it's that simple, I'm all for it.

Just like getting oil is simple (you aim for the lowest spread in viscosity
and the highest SX rating alphabetically) and just like getting pads is
simple (you aim for the highest cold/hot friction you can get) I'm all for
simplicity in specifications.

So your recommendation is:
a. Polypropylene or Polyethylene
b. but not ABS or Polyvinylchloride

If that works, I'm ok with that.
Simplicity is good. When it exists.

Still ... what about UV coating?

Most are not coated but have inhibitors added to the plastic compounds.

The trash bin is an investment for the trash company that must maintain
and replace them if damaged. They want quality that will last.

Homeowners are looking for price and no matter how good or bad the item
is, many will be tossing it out soon anyway. Low price, high profit is
the incentive in choosing material.

 

[rickman]

RS Wood wrote on 11/5/2017 9:32 AM:

rickman wrote:

Do some research. Polyethylene is an incomplete description. It can be
high density (milk cartons and canoes/kayaks and some lawn furniture) or low
density (and a few other newer, specialty forms). Both types are
susceptible to UV damage unless stabilizers are added.

I'm not so familiar with polypropylene and UV. I know most plastics are
susceptible unless additives are used. There are lots of references
available... read!

Fair enough.
But if someone can't just tell me the answer, then that just means one or
both of two things.

1. Nobody actually knows the answer (because if they can't simplify, they
don't know it).

2. The answer is known but it's so freaking complex that nobody can
summarize it (see #1 above).

If the answer can't be summarized *accurately*, then it's not known.
So if I look it up, I'll just find out the same thing that everyone else
already found out - which is that it's too complex to summarize accurately.

Which was my point.

It's not complex. I don't get what you are saying. I know some specific
plastics that are suitable for outdoor use as I have indicated. Picking a
single one is like asking which metal is best? If your requirements are
complex it's a complex answer. If you just want a plastic table it's not a
complex answer. Ask Tonka what plastic they make their outdoor stuff out
of. I'm pretty sure they pick a plastic that won't fall apart for many years.

My kayaks are HDPE with UV stabilizers added. I have an HDPE canoe that has
been on my dock in the sun for well over a decade.

BTW, what was the question?

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/5/2017 12:40 AM, rickman wrote:

You could get a stainless steel exhaust system the first time
you replace it, but you would need to keep the vehicle for twenty
more years
to make it pay off.

I don't even look at the exhaust anymore, it's that reliable.
I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel.
Is it not?

No, it's not.  It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years.

My '91 Buick was traded in with the original exhaust at 15 years, but it
was starting to go. I honestly do not remember the last time I had to
replace a muffler or pipe as most are SS now and last a long time.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/5/2017 12:48 AM, RS Wood wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

Whenever we see something with a rounded nut or bolt we think "Patrick
was here." Pat is one of my son's friends who NEVER had the right tool.

I think they should make adjustable wrenches illegal.
I can't for the life of me figure out a use for them.

You take an adjustible with you when you don't know what size you will
need. If you get lucky, 50% of the time it will work but 50% of the
time you go back for a box or open end.

 

[The Real Bev]

On 11/05/2017 01:44 AM, Xeno wrote:

You understand the efficacy of slotted and/or drilled rotors the first
time you experience brake fade.

Hrm. I thought that was done to lighten them -- bicyclists are
sometimes also called gram-shavers. It provides better cooling too?

--
Cheers, Bev
If I gave a shit, you'd be the first one I'd give it to.

 

[The Real Bev]

On 11/05/2017 06:42 AM, RS Wood wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

So anyone who *thinks* rotors warp, is an idiot.

It might have happened a little on my mom's (end eventually mine) 88
Caddy. Slight vibration when braking, but they felt OK. Until 2 of the
calipers seized 8 years later, of course :-( POS, I'll never own
another GM product.

thumpthumpthumpthump... rather than vibration.

That wasn't rotor warp.
I know that because it's almost never rotor warp on a street vehicle.

Then what? It never caused problems and either it went away or I just
learned to ignore it.

These looked like a high-school first-time lathe project. Each of the
steel projections on the backing plate had dug out its own trench.

Look up the spec for grooves. It's enormous.
I'm not saying grooves and gouges can't fail a rotor.
I'm saying they have to be the size of the Grand Canyon to exceed specs.

1/4" x 1/4" and several of them? No idea why they started to hog in,
but that's what convinced me to get them fixed.

What fails rotors the most (by far) is thickness.

Godawful noise, but the brakes still worked fine so I figured I could
wait another month :-( (Not the Caddy, this was a 68/9 LTD.)

Some pads are rated EE for cold/hot friction.
Guess what steel on steel friction is?
Yup. E.

The idea of ceramic brake pads is upsetting. What's GOOD material now?

--
Cheers, Bev
If I gave a shit, you'd be the first one I'd give it to.

 

[The Real Bev]

On 11/05/2017 07:33 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

OMG, painting has drastically change. Part due to better technology,
part do to new paint formula as mandated by DEP to eliminate VOCs.

Solvent paint is gone in favor of water based. Now your car is
accurately covered by a robot rather than a guy with a hangover. Up to
about 1923 cars were painted with a brush.

78 Caddy (yet another POS, but my mom liked them) paint peeled after 8
years in the sun. Go through any large parking lot and look at all the
peeling paint of similarly-aged cars. I was told that they used
experimental water-based lacquer. Sounded fishy...

Hm. It's actually hard to find cars that old any more in California.
The State pays us to junk them if they can't pass the smog test.

Apparently they fixed the problem -- the paint on the 88 Caddy (unlike
the throttle [which caused me to get rid of it in 2016 after it tried to
kill me way too many times], the brakes, the AC, the plastic, the
headliner, the upholstery, the shocks etc. ) just faded a little bit on
the horizontal surfaces. "Antelope Firemist" otherwise known as
metallic beige.

I got $1K from the state for crushing it -- it had something like 90K
miles and the engine was still running fine and not using oil. New
tires, complete new brake system, cheap but good radio. The wrecking
yard was not supposed to re-use any of the parts, just crush the whole
thing. I really want to think that they cheated.

--
Cheers, Bev
If I gave a shit, you'd be the first one I'd give it to.

 

[RS Wood]

The Real Bev wrote:

> thumpthumpthumpthump... rather than vibration.

Doesn't matter what it sounded like. It's not rotor warp.
Not on a street car it's not.

So we have to distinguish between the term, and the measurement.

The funny thing about the term "rotor warp" is that it has two usages,
where one is just "oh, my brakes are vibrating", which is a useful term for
that even though rotor warp doesn't mean the rotors actually warped.

So you see "rotor warp" used as "my brakes are acting up" all over the
Internet, where the short term solution always works, which is to machine
or replace the rotors.

Everyone thinks they're a genius when these two things happen:
1. Rotors act up so the guy blindly assumes "rotor warp".
2. Machining or replacing the rotors solves the problem.

Instant genius, right?

The problem isn't that the short-term solution to all rotor imbalances is
the same; the problem is that the long-term solution is quite different
depending on why the vibration occurred in the first place.

The vibration is NOT that the rotors "warped" (as in a potato chip).

What happens is that the genius above comes back, time and time again,
blaming the rotors, when he said "this is my third time on this car where
my rotors have warped", where he's sick of the car, but where most of the
time, the *cause* is his own actions.

So the crime of using the term "rotor warp' is not just that nobody ever
*measures* rotor warp (they can't - it doesn't exist in practice).

The problem is that they come up with all sorts of long-term solutions that
don't and can't work, or they work (e.g., Tundra mod for the 4Runner
brakes) but for reasons completely missed by those who just blindly assume
that their rotors actually warped.

That wasn't rotor warp.
I know that because it's almost never rotor warp on a street vehicle.

Then what? It never caused problems and either it went away or I just
learned to ignore it.

One quick proof of rotor warp is so easy to do, that nobody does it, which
is measure it.

The next even quicker proof that everyone does but those who don't think
about rotor warp don't think about what I'm going to say either ... is just
take a so-called 'warped' set of rotors on a test drive, at night, on the
highway, and jam on the brakes for a few 60 to 10mph stops, sufficient to
"rebed" the deposits on the rotor.

If the vibration decreases, or markedly changes character, or even goes
away, then how could it possibly have been rotor warp in the first place?

Bear in mind, a street car *never* gets into the temperatures required to
actually warp a rotor.

I hesitate to give you a reference because I'm trying to appeal to your
cold hard logic of common sense, but we can easily find references to back
up everything I say (because what I say is scientific fact).

"The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System"
<http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths>

"Raybestos Brake Tech School, Part One: Rotors Don't Warp"
<http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id87>

"Why Do Brake Rotors Warp?"
<https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/why-do-brake-rotors-warp>

I'm not saying that there aren't zillions of times "rotor warp" is
mentioned on the net as if it exists for street cars, so you have to find
the ones where the author actually knows what he's talking about.

Essentially, if an article mentions that the author is well aware of the
misnomer, then you can begin to trust it over an article where the author
is completely clueless that the misnomer exists.

The idea of ceramic brake pads is upsetting.
What's GOOD material now?

You're looking at brakes from the wrong angle.
Do not look at brake pads from the angle that MARKETING wants you to.
That's like looking at a rolex as a better watch because you're looking at
the diamonds instead of how it keeps accurate time.

Q: What's the main job of a watch?
A: Accurate time, right?

Q: Is a $50K rolex watch a better watch than a $30 Timex watch?
A: The watch that keeps better time is the better watch.

Q: What's the main job of brake pads.
A: Friction.

Q: How do you compare brake pads?
A: By cold/hot friction ratings.

Q: How do you know cold/hot friction ratings?
A: It's illegal to sell pads in the USA that don't have it stamped on them.

So, here's my simple KISS advice on brake pads.
1. Look up the friction rating for OEM pads (e.g., FF).
2. Buy *any* pad (that fits) that meets or exceeds *that* rating.

Pretty simple huh.

Now, you can go into *further* detail, for example my Jurid/Textar
front/rear OEM FF pads have a propensity to deposit unsightly dust, so lost
of people prefer the Axxis or PBR or other FF pad that dusts a slightly
different less noxious color (all pads dust - where do you think the pad
and rotor material goes?).

You can even go into further detail as to which pads wear the longest, but
then it gets more and more subjectively away from the primary purpose of a
brake pad, which is cold/hot friction.

All pads sold in the USA have the cold/hot friction rating stamped on the
pad or the box or the backing plates. It's the law.

There is a lookup table of about 40 pages, as I recall, on the net, which
contains *all* pads currently sold so you can easily compare them. There
aren't a whole lotta friction ratings though becuase they have a wide range
in each.

E is about as good as steel on steel for friction coefficient.
F and G are common.
I don't think any other rating is common but I buy FFs so I don't know.

 

[RS Wood]

The Real Bev wrote:

You understand the efficacy of slotted and/or drilled rotors the first
time you experience brake fade.

Hrm. I thought that was done to lighten them -- bicyclists are
sometimes also called gram-shavers. It provides better cooling too?

Steel is steel is steel is steel is steel is steel.
Pads are the main friction component since E pads suck and since the
coefficient of friction for steel is E.

So if you have GG pads, then the pads are the major friction determinant.
The steel is there mainly to dissipate heat.

Conductive mass dissipates heat (as does the vane and airflow design, all
of which we have to assume are equal when comparing drilled/slotted to
solid rotors).

Everyone has read all the marketing bullshit on why drilled/slotted rotors
are better than solid, but nobody seems to have any evidence that backs
that purely marketing claim up.

I'll believe verified bona-fide facts showing rotor X stops better than
rotor Y where the only difference is the drilling/slotting.

I've never seen anyone come up with those facts.

I'll wait....

 

On Sunday, 5 November 2017 18:17:43 UTC, RS Wood wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

You understand the efficacy of slotted and/or drilled rotors the first
time you experience brake fade.

Hrm. I thought that was done to lighten them -- bicyclists are
sometimes also called gram-shavers. It provides better cooling too?

Steel is steel is steel is steel is steel is steel.
Pads are the main friction component since E pads suck and since the
coefficient of friction for steel is E.

So if you have GG pads, then the pads are the major friction determinant.
The steel is there mainly to dissipate heat.

Conductive mass dissipates heat (as does the vane and airflow design, all
of which we have to assume are equal when comparing drilled/slotted to
solid rotors).

Everyone has read all the marketing bullshit on why drilled/slotted rotors
are better than solid, but nobody seems to have any evidence that backs
that purely marketing claim up.

I'll believe verified bona-fide facts showing rotor X stops better than
rotor Y where the only difference is the drilling/slotting.

I've never seen anyone come up with those facts.

I'll wait....

It depends what you're comparing. Weight of steel is the big deal for a hard fast stop, slots have only minor cooling effect. Drill holes in a rotor and it's going to do worse. OTOH if you compare 2 rotors of the same weight, the drilled one will do a bit better. If you're racing, go with drilled, but don't sacrifice mass to get there.


NT

 

On Sunday, 5 November 2017 18:13:53 UTC, RS Wood wrote:

All pads sold in the USA have the cold/hot friction rating stamped on the
pad or the box or the backing plates. It's the law.

There is a lookup table of about 40 pages, as I recall, on the net, which
contains *all* pads currently sold so you can easily compare them. There
aren't a whole lotta friction ratings though becuase they have a wide range
in each.

E is about as good as steel on steel for friction coefficient.
F and G are common.
I don't think any other rating is common but I buy FFs so I don't know.

What rating is whitewood on steel?


NT

 

[The Real Bev]

On 11/05/2017 10:13 AM, RS Wood wrote:

The Real Bev wrote:

thumpthumpthumpthump... rather than vibration.

Doesn't matter what it sounded like. It's not rotor warp.
Not on a street car it's not.

So we have to distinguish between the term, and the measurement.

The funny thing about the term "rotor warp" is that it has two usages,
where one is just "oh, my brakes are vibrating", which is a useful term for
that even though rotor warp doesn't mean the rotors actually warped.

So you see "rotor warp" used as "my brakes are acting up" all over the
Internet, where the short term solution always works, which is to machine
or replace the rotors.

Everyone thinks they're a genius when these two things happen:
1. Rotors act up so the guy blindly assumes "rotor warp".
2. Machining or replacing the rotors solves the problem.

Instant genius, right?

The problem isn't that the short-term solution to all rotor imbalances is
the same; the problem is that the long-term solution is quite different
depending on why the vibration occurred in the first place.

The vibration is NOT that the rotors "warped" (as in a potato chip).

What happens is that the genius above comes back, time and time again,
blaming the rotors, when he said "this is my third time on this car where
my rotors have warped", where he's sick of the car, but where most of the
time, the *cause* is his own actions.

So the crime of using the term "rotor warp' is not just that nobody ever
*measures* rotor warp (they can't - it doesn't exist in practice).

The problem is that they come up with all sorts of long-term solutions that
don't and can't work, or they work (e.g., Tundra mod for the 4Runner
brakes) but for reasons completely missed by those who just blindly assume
that their rotors actually warped.


That wasn't rotor warp.
I know that because it's almost never rotor warp on a street vehicle.

Then what? It never caused problems and either it went away or I just
learned to ignore it.

One quick proof of rotor warp is so easy to do, that nobody does it, which
is measure it.

The next even quicker proof that everyone does but those who don't think
about rotor warp don't think about what I'm going to say either ... is just
take a so-called 'warped' set of rotors on a test drive, at night, on the
highway, and jam on the brakes for a few 60 to 10mph stops, sufficient to
"rebed" the deposits on the rotor.

If the vibration decreases, or markedly changes character, or even goes
away, then how could it possibly have been rotor warp in the first place?

I wish I could remember when I stopped noticing it. I might have done a
hard stop to test whether the seat belts were still working properly...

Bear in mind, a street car *never* gets into the temperatures required to
actually warp a rotor.

I hesitate to give you a reference because I'm trying to appeal to your
cold hard logic of common sense, but we can easily find references to back
up everything I say (because what I say is scientific fact).

"The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System"
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths

"Raybestos Brake Tech School, Part One: Rotors Don't Warp"
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id87

"Why Do Brake Rotors Warp?"
https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/why-do-brake-rotors-warp

I'm not saying that there aren't zillions of times "rotor warp" is
mentioned on the net as if it exists for street cars, so you have to find
the ones where the author actually knows what he's talking about.

I believe you.

Essentially, if an article mentions that the author is well aware of the
misnomer, then you can begin to trust it over an article where the author
is completely clueless that the misnomer exists.

The idea of ceramic brake pads is upsetting.
What's GOOD material now?

You're looking at brakes from the wrong angle.
Do not look at brake pads from the angle that MARKETING wants you to.
That's like looking at a rolex as a better watch because you're looking at
the diamonds instead of how it keeps accurate time.

Q: What's the main job of a watch?
A: Accurate time, right?

Q: Is a $50K rolex watch a better watch than a $30 Timex watch?
A: The watch that keeps better time is the better watch.

Ha. My $25 Casio atomic solar watch has been providing accurate time
since 2008 with no attention whatsoever. The beautiful 195x Omega
Seamaster is sitting in a box somewhere because it needed to be cleaned
every couple of years. Apparently the lubricant breaks down -- it
doesn't seem that dirt could get into a waterproof watch. I guess it
was accurate, I didn't have anything to check it against but the nice
lady on the phone who told me the time.

Q: What's the main job of brake pads.
A: Friction.

Q: How do you compare brake pads?
A: By cold/hot friction ratings.

Q: How do you know cold/hot friction ratings?
A: It's illegal to sell pads in the USA that don't have it stamped on them.

So, here's my simple KISS advice on brake pads.
1. Look up the friction rating for OEM pads (e.g., FF).
2. Buy *any* pad (that fits) that meets or exceeds *that* rating.

Pretty simple huh.

Now, you can go into *further* detail, for example my Jurid/Textar
front/rear OEM FF pads have a propensity to deposit unsightly dust, so lost
of people prefer the Axxis or PBR or other FF pad that dusts a slightly
different less noxious color (all pads dust - where do you think the pad
and rotor material goes?).

You can even go into further detail as to which pads wear the longest, but
then it gets more and more subjectively away from the primary purpose of a
brake pad, which is cold/hot friction.

All pads sold in the USA have the cold/hot friction rating stamped on the
pad or the box or the backing plates. It's the law.

There is a lookup table of about 40 pages, as I recall, on the net, which
contains *all* pads currently sold so you can easily compare them. There
aren't a whole lotta friction ratings though becuase they have a wide range
in each.

E is about as good as steel on steel for friction coefficient.
F and G are common.
I don't think any other rating is common but I buy FFs so I don't know.

I drive roughly 4K miles/year and front pads on other cars generally
were OK for 40K miles (rear shoes double that). ~20K now. I'll
remember this just as long as I can

(Wonderful line from 'Earth Girls Are Easy', a really FUN movie with a
great cast!)

--
Cheers, Bev
I remember when everybody posted to Usenet with their real,
deliverable e-mail address. Of all the sins committed by the
spammers, destroying the viability of the open Internet was the worst.
(Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, news.admin.net-abuse.email)

 

[Frank]

On 11/4/2017 4:13 PM, clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 18:17:09 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid
wrote:

rickman wrote:

Same here. Any car of mine that needed an engine wasn't worth putting an
engine in. Older cars were not made to last and that was true for every
part of that car. Even things like seats and headliners were shot by the
time the engine was shot. My current truck has 240,000 miles on it and the
engine is one of a number of parts that shows nearly no sign of going
anytime soon. The parts that have been repaired often were not repaired
right so some have needed repairing more than once, but otherwise the truck
is very sound.

You make a good point which I don't know the answer to.

In my kid days, plastic toys did not exist (transistor radios didn't exist
either), so our Tonka toys were rubber wheels and steel bodies.

Nowadays, if you leave a kid's toy car outside, the sun alone will destroy
it within a year or two.

So they certainly don't build *some stuff* the way they used to.

However ... cars *seem* to be different. Are they?

My Chrysler's and Dodges days (in the olden days, we had brand loyalties
that sprang from the brand loyalties of our fathers) showed me that a
tuneup was needed every year, bias-ply tires lasted something like 20K
miles, and, as you said, the interior was shot by the time the engine went.

And that was in the days before plastic bumpers and plastic headlights
(they were real glass bulbs in those days).

But yet, it seems to me, cars last forever now.
In those days, 100K miles was a lot.
Now, it seems, 200K miles is approaching a lot.

Do they really make cars better but nothing else is better?
How can that be?
They sure make cars a lot better - experience and technology have
made a lot of difference. ( Remember, in 1959, the automobile, as an
object, was not as old as a 1959 car is today!!!!

The reason just about anything else you buy today is NOT better is
everyone wants it CHEAPER and expects to upgrade long before anything
with any QUALITY would require replacement. Everything is changing SO
FAST.

Most people want to buy the latest and greatest even before today's
JUNK is worn out.

I've heard that the younger crowd trades in cars because the electronics
are outdated, not the mechanical parts.

Lot of us keep a car until repair cost exceeds book value.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/5/2017 11:06 AM, rickman wrote:

RS Wood wrote on 11/5/2017 9:32 AM:
rickman wrote:

Do some research.  Polyethylene is an incomplete description.  It can be
high density (milk cartons and canoes/kayaks and some lawn furniture)
or low
density (and a few other newer, specialty forms).  Both types are
susceptible to UV damage unless stabilizers are added.

I'm not so familiar with polypropylene and UV.  I know most plastics are
susceptible unless additives are used.  There are lots of references
available... read!

Fair enough.
But if someone can't just tell me the answer, then that just means one or
both of two things.

1. Nobody actually knows the answer (because if they can't simplify, they
don't know it).

2. The answer is known but it's so freaking complex that nobody can
summarize it (see #1 above).

If the answer can't be summarized *accurately*, then it's not known.
So if I look it up, I'll just find out the same thing that everyone else
already found out - which is that it's too complex to summarize
accurately.

Which was my point.

It's not complex.  I don't get what you are saying.  I know some
specific plastics that are suitable for outdoor use as I have
indicated.  Picking a single one is like asking which metal is best?  If
your requirements are complex it's a complex answer.  If you just want a
plastic table it's not a complex answer.  Ask Tonka what plastic they
make their outdoor stuff out of.  I'm pretty sure they pick a plastic
that won't fall apart for many years.

My kayaks are HDPE with UV stabilizers added.  I have an HDPE canoe that
has been on my dock in the sun for well over a decade.

BTW, what was the question?

One plastic does not suit all. The trash can may be made by blow
molding while the table made me rotional molded, other parts are
injected molded. Each method requires different material
characteristics with different additives.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/5/2017 9:33 AM, RS Wood wrote:

Xeno wrote:

No, it's not.+AKA- It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years.

Hmmm, Last car I had for 8 years, never touched the exhaust system.

I'm with you on the exhaust.
It's a non-maintenance part nowadays.
But we *all* had to deal with exhaust in the days of yore.

So kudos to the EPA for forcing stainless steel into the mix!

PS: I wonder how "Midas Muffler" stays afloat?

Not just mufflers any more. They were smart enough to evolve into other
auto services like brakes, shocks, and the like. As cars get more
sophisticated the more you have to rely on the dealer also. My Genesis
was dealer service because the local guy could not get the right oil
filter for it. The NAPA nest door did not carry it as it is a low
volume item.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/5/2017 10:13 AM, RS Wood wrote:

rbowman wrote:

Just like FWD cars and tricked-out cars are, to me, nearly worthless.

My first front wheel drive was an Audi 100LS in the early '70s. It was a
learning experience both for me and Volkswagen. My ex traded it for a
Rabbit and got $400 on the trade. I've come to like them. They do well
in snow.

There is one reason for FWD's predominance, and only one reason.
And that reason was *never* handling.

The whole handling thing was a MARKETING red herring so that the hoi polloi
would *think* handling is the determining factor.

The only question is how much did the manufacturer save on FWD.
Someone mentioned it was only $50 but I would have guessed at $1000.

Anyone know how much cheaper it is for them to build FWD cars?

The $50 figure is about 30 years old. If it was accurate at the time is
would be double that today and there was still a lot of engineering and
new tooling to pay for. That said, I have no ideal today.

 

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 11/5/2017 10:05 AM, RS Wood wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I still don't see how the *gas* has anything to do with engines lasting
longer. Maybe it does, but I don't see the connection.


Coupled with better rings, you get less blow by into the crankcase less
oil contamination..

Hmmmmm...... better rings?
Are you trying to pull a fast one on me?

I am a logical thinker.
That doesn't mean I'm always (or even ever) right.

I'm just logical.
So the "better rings" has to be better ... somehow ... in some way.

Where a piston ring is a pretty simple thing (in practice).

NOTE: Just as with spark plugs, there is some engineer somewhere who knows
everything there is to know about designing piston rings, so I know
everything is complex at the design phase.

But a ring is a ring is a ring is a ring. AFAIK.

Pray tell ... what on earth do you think is *better* about a ring of steel
today from that same ring of steel of yesteryear?

Better material, better tolerances, possibly better design. When is the
last time you got a ring job on your car? It was common in the 1950s to
do rings and bearings at about 50,000 miles. Lubricants are a factor
too, but engines today can easily last 200,000 miles with the same
internal parts. Do you think those rings are the same?

 

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 05:47:02 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Not so. There is a BIG difference between some good rotors and some
cheap one - bad metalurfy will cause hard spotting, and glazing and
pitting and warping. The trick is finding the good ones -

There are very few things I'm gonna disagree with you on.

Just like the garbage-bin guy, it sounds great to tell me to buy the right
plastic (or coating) after asking what's the plastic (or coating) used -
but in practice that's shit advice because there are a billion kinds of
plastic and you have to know which are the better ones.

Same with rotors.

I've heard everything there is to hear from people telling me about crappy
Chinese rotors. While I generally go Brembo or Meyle, if someone else gave
me a good price, I'd go with them.

Some of the best rotors out there are Chinese - but also some of the
worst. Consistency is the problem

If I hear one more guy tell me to buy Zimmerman drilled and slotted, I'm
gonna go postal on him. He's the same guy that insists that rotor warp
caused his brake-related vibration at speed. Run, do not walk, run away
from those people.

In some instances (virtually never normal street use) grooved and
slotted rotors DO provide better braking. We are talking competition
use, where the rotors are glowing red hot half the time, and the pads
are off-gassing like crazy - where even 100% dry DOT4 brake fluid
boils in the calipers. Under those conditions, rotors can warp - and
even fracture (in Rallye use I've seen red hot rotors hit an icy
puddle and totally fracture)

Same with anyone who tells me to buy good solid rotors.

I have nothing against quality but you can't tell a good solid rotor from a
bad solid rotor if they're the same thickness, same cooling veins, etc.

You just can't.

Actually, on SOME cases you can. Look at the consistancy of the fins
in the rotors, and the even-ness of the thickness of the braking
surfaces on both sides of the fins. If there is a difference in
thickness around the circumference of the rotor, or inconsistancy in
the thickness and/or finish of the fins, you WILL have problems with
the rotor. If everything looks like it was forged, not cast (precision
casting) chances are VERY good you will have no issues. The rotors
will heat and cool consistantly - you won't get hars spots, and you
won't get genuine warping.
>How are you gonna know the metallurgy?

You don't - that's the hard part - but when you are in the business
you get to know which suppliers stand up, and which don't. If you
know the suppliers well, they will tell you which ones they have
trouble with, and which ones they don't.


Some are made of normal cast iron, some of "nodular cast" (aka
Ductile cast) and some of "high carbon steel"

>Really?

Sometimes you can tell because the color of the metal actually varies
across the face of the rotor. Rare, but I've seen brand new rotors
with darker "shadows" in the ground surface of the rotor. Hard spots
first time you get the rotors warmed up. So hard you can't touch them
with a carbide bit in a brake lathe.

The BIGGEST problem with rotors is improper seating and wearin of the
pad - with spotty pad material deposit on the rotors due to holding
the brake pedal down after a hard stop. This causes a minor thump -
but if left sitting in the damp, particularly if the material picks up
some salt, it rusta behind that material buildup, and chunks of rotor
literally fall out - causing "pitted" rotors.

Some pad materials are worse than others - I found the "iron metallic"
pads Toyota came out with were a LOT worse than the "brass metallic"
pads - and "carbon metallic" and "ceramic" are generally even better
in that regard, althogh some of them don't stop worth a darn untill
they are pretty hot - and some wear rotors like a grinding stone.


You don't - that's the hard part - but when you are in the business
you get to know which suppliers stand up, and which don't. If you
know the suppliers well, they will tell you which ones they have
trouble with, and which ones they don't.

And some rotors DO WARP. Not many - but I've had at least a bushel
basket full of genuinely warped rotors in my 25 year carreer. Most
"warped" rotors are not warped - but some are. Some DRASTICALLY - to
the point the caliper moves visibly when the wheel is turned - and if
the sliders stick the pedal jumps and the steering wheel twitches.

More often than not though, they are either pitted or have deposit
buildup, ot they have "hard spots" due to metalurgical inclusions

You can't.
You just can't.

Unless you give me a way to tell (other than just saying a brand name),
then I'm not gonna believe the advice ... not because it's not true advice
... but because it's like saying don't breathe when someone farts.

You can't give advice that is unusable in practice.

Specifically, how are you gonna know a good rotor metallurgy from bad rotor
metallurgy if all you have are two unbranded rotors in your hands that are
the same size and cooling vein arrangement?

Or retractor tools for rear disc brakes with integral e-brakes.

I forgot about that tool. Yup. $10 and you have a brake-pad-sized C clamp
that pushes the piston(s) back into the calipers. Thanks for reminding me
of that tool. I only have one, which is fine - but someday I'll buy a
second one so that I can do both wheels on an axle at the same time.

Wrong tool. The one I'm talking about has tabs that fit into the
notches on the piston face to "thread" it in as you squeese. Can
sometimes get away with the $17 "cube" but the kit you KNOW is going
to work starts at about $35 for one of questionable quality, and goes
up very quickly from there (and IT won't turn back Mazda rear calipers
- they use a different system

No, some rotors DO warp. So do some drums. Most "warped" rotors,
however, are either pitted or hard spotted.

Nope. But I'm not ever going to say that a rotor "can't" warp (because it
can).

But I will tell you I have heard ten thousand times that some idiot says
his rotors warped and each time I asked him how he *measured* it, and guess
what?

Never once in my life have I found a single person who has *measured* the
warp.

I have. many times.

You know why?
They don't even know *how* to measure rotor warp.
They don't have the tools to measure rotor warp

A somple dial indicator tells the tale - and sometimes one side is
straight, and the other side is not - parallelism warpage - where some
fins collapse and one side of the rotor "caves in" - 1 inch thick on
one "side" of the rotor, and .875 or something like that diametrically
across the rotor. - and sometimes virtually deead flat on both
surfaces - other times with about hald paralel and the other half
"sloped"

When you get the rotor on the lathe you can see very quickly if it is
warped, pitted, hard-spotted, collapesed, or whatever.

I've even seen quite a few where the friction surface is "wavy" o high
over the fins, and sunk between them - sometimes on one whole surface,
sometimes on both surfaces, and sometimes only on part of one or both.

(Hint: It requires a flat benchtop and feeler gauges and it's not hard -
but they don't know that because they didn't measure a single thing.)

That won't necessarilly tell you anything. The only way to KNOW is to
use a dial indicator properly.

Nobody but nobody who claims their rotors warped actually measured a single
thing. They lied. Worse, they don't even realize they lied. It's like the
original sin. They have it and they don't even know it because they were
born with it.

And that is where YOU are WRONG.
Many technicians measure brake rotors virtually every day of their
working lives.

Street rotors just don't get hot enough to warp.
They just don't.

Not usually under normal conditions, but panic stops on the highway
CAN get them hot enough to warp -and to collapse between fins - and to
glow visibly in the semi-shade of the fender-wells - and to totally
BAKE the linings. You CAN make a disc brake "fade" on the road (non
competition use)
A sticky caloper slider or seized or semi-seized caliper can get the
rotor hot enough WITHOUT panic braking to damage both the pad and the
rotor.( and to severely comptomize brake effectiveness to the point of
causing a pronounced pull to the side of the NON-OVERHEATED brake - -

It's pad deposition I tell ya. Now it could be other things too.
But I'll betcha 90% of the time it's uneven pad deposition.
And 0.0000000000000001% of the time, it's actually rotor warp.

Take a few zeros off there.a GENUINELY warped rotor is not a "total
unicorn" I've seen numerous cases - and in fact there was a time where
we were routinely changing rotors on certain Toyota vehicles (in a
given production/ serial number range) due to actual rotor warpage.

Dealerships were then REQUIRED to buy an "on-the-car lathe" to true
up rotors. If they could not be trued up within a given spec (still
thicker than discard) they were to be replaced - a miserable job on
those early Tercels where the rotors/hubs and bearings were pressed
together inside the knuckles.

We replaced enough of them that I got pretty darn good at it!!!

What makes the morons think they're geniuses is that the short-term
solution to both pad deposition and rotor warp is the same.

It's the long-term solution that is different.

That is, while the short term solution to both is the same, the long term
solution to rotor warp is completely different than the long term solution
to pad deposition.

Replacement with "good" rotors - in the Toyota case it WAS a
metalurgy issue. The best rotors are made from castings that are
"aged" before machining, allowing the casting stresses to resolve.
The toyota problem was partly using "grean" castings.

The deposits problem can be a double edged sword - wrong pad
materials, as well as poor bedding procedures can cause the problem to
be "worse than acceptable"

And that's the shame because these two solutions are nothing alike even
though most people do the wrong solution since street rotors just don't
warp (in practice) because they can't get hot enough to warp.

That's the kind of stuff you learn by doing the job yourself.

What I learned I learned by doing it for 25byears, on almost a daily
basis.

The kind of stuff you learn working on hundreds of cars a year for 1/4
century, and supervizing a shopfull of mechanics for a decade.

Nope. Street rotors don't warp in practice.
They don't get hot enough to warp.
Look it up.

A wize man learns from the mistakes of others - a fool never learns
because he "never makes mistakes"

I'm not gonna disagree with you on too many things, but if ANYONE is gonna
tell me their street rotors warped, I want them to tell me at what
temperature steel gets that flimsy and I want them to tell me how they
MEASURED the warp (because never once have I found anyone who said they
warped who knew those two answers).

I've told you how I measure to prove warpage, and how it happens,
If a rotor is visbly glowinf (in the dark) it is awfull close to
1000F. Bright cherry is 1375F or very close.
Depending on the steel, annealing temperatures run from about 500 to
1400F. If there are stresses cast into the rotor, that's all it takes
to "let them out" - warping the rotor.

Check "heat treating of nodular iron castings" for more than you will
ever want to know about what can go wrong with ferritic castings.
(Nodular iron in particular)

Sure you can *LOOK* up the answer.
But they never did the measurement so they can't ever tell me offhand what
I already know they don't know.

You know SQUAT. When you've serviced brakes on an almost daily basis
for 25 years - when you've machined hundreds, even thousands of brake
rotors and drums, and MEASURED hundreds of rotors, then I'll admit you
might actually KNOW something about it.

Yes - you are right to the extent that MOST "warped rotors" are not.
But you are absolutely WRONG when you say they never warp in
street/highway use and anyone who says they have had a warped rotor is
lying and hasn't measured the rotor to prove it. And your method of
neasuring warpage is NOT the correct or industry approved way of
measuring rotors for warpage (and would NEVER find warpage in the
"hat" area of the rotor - which is caused by gross mistorquing of
certain wheels on certain vehicles) (admittedly rare - but not a
"total unicorn" either)

 

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 05:53:44 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:


It doesn't need plastic inserts.
It doesn't need a ratcheting mechanism.
It doesn't need replaceable heads.

All that stuff makes it BIGGER (which is bad when it matters).
All that stuff makes it WEAKER (which is bad when it matters).
All that stuff makes it less reliable (which is bad too).

KISS.
I call that crap "knuckle busters"

Yup. It's gonna break when they are applying the most force.

All the kinky tools I just smile at when I see them in the store.

Basic stuff for me.

The only kinky things I need are the slimmer wrenches, the longer ones, the
curved ones, the angled ones, etc., all of which are for the toughest jobs
and where I generally buy them as oneoffs as needed.

And I have often made them myself because theywere not "readilly
available" or "affordable" for the purpose.

Adjustable wrenches should be banned as a menace to society.

They are totally fine for some applications - but NOT bolts on a
car!!

 

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 05:57:49 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>
wrote:

clare@snyder.on.ca wrote:

A good low impedence multitester, and occaisionally a "power
injector", and occaisionally a logic tester (generally part of the
power injector)

I have a logic tester for TTL circuits (TI 7100 series stuff, as I recall),
but nothing for a car's "logic".

Much of car logic IS TTL level (+/- 5 volts) and the rest is floating
input to either +12 volts or ground

A good Fluke DMM is de rigueur though, I agree, for any homeowner.

Absolutely no need to waste money on a "Fluke" branded meter. LOTS of
lower cost stuff out there that is more than accurate enough for
automotive electronics use.

And an attachment to measure the starter amperage.

But my point is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of "new fangled" tools
that we need to work on for a car.

It's the same old tools, with minor exceptions of emissions and ECU/DMU/ABS
control, isn't it?

Different brake tools for some disc brakes - torque to angle or
angle to torque adapters for "torque to tield" bolts. Special
wrenches/sockets for certain sensors - but not a lot of essoteric and
complex stuff.