War on humanity

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 09:07:14 -0400) it happened Chuck Harris
<cfharris@erols.com> wrote in <40979583$0$3020$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:

R. Steve Walz wrote:

You want equal outcome, despite differences in ability, effort, and pure
dumb luck.

------------------------
Nope, greater effort should result in greater wealth, effort is to
be measured solely by the hours spent at productive labor requested
by the Majority.

That right there is what killed the Soviet Union's socialist experiment.
You are using quantity of work as the predictor of one's wealth, not
quality of work.

The capitalistic system always rewards quality of work more than it
rewards simple quantity.

You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.

-Chuck
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig

was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 03:38:51 GMT) it happened "R. Steve Walz"
<rstevew@armory.com> wrote in <40971112.2CE3@armory.com>:

Saint wrote:

I urge you to stop playing Doom for a while, and go read a book. It's
also of importance to open your window and look outside to see how the
real world is going.
--------------
I've NEVER played "Doom" and I've read FAR more than YOU have!
Believe it!
Believe? But you are against religion!

 

[Chuck Harris]

Jan Panteltje wrote:

You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.

-Chuck

Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)

The engineer can always become a ditch digger. All it takes is a shovel
and a pick. Can the ditch digger become an engineer if you give him a
calculator?

-Chuck

 

[Frithiof Andreas Jensen]

"Chuck Harris" <cfharris@erols.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4091ad52$0$28899$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...

Soeren, you are really naive if you think that this war's continuation
or cessation hinges on anyone here's sexual desires, or feelings.

You would be surprised:

Eric Fromm's "The Nature of Human Destructiveness" argues clearly for the
importance of Necrophilia, Sadism and Narcissism in the formation and
propagation of evil regimes and destructive cultures. Good Airport book.

 

[Rich Grise]

"Soeren" <Look@iNO-SPAMt.dk.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns94DEECEB9FA1Fo8oLOOKatHOMEo8o@212.242.40.196...

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in
news:40958DD9.76A@armory.com:

I like to say the Truth without abrading its edges.

The Truth as you see it... Do you and you alone have The Truth(tm) ?

Oh, of course! Anyone who's not a convert to The Church of Steve
is an[sic] heretic, and must be purified!

Chuckle.
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:409703B6.54EA@armory.com...

KR Williams wrote:


Bottom line:

That's why we all laugh at you. You're the lone wolf thrown out
by mommy and can't find a female who wants the bother with a
communist dog.

--
Keith
--------------------------
Haha! If you only REALLY knew!

It's amazing how many unadorned 40-50-something women want just an
intelligent lick/suck/fuck-friend who DOESN'T want to move in with
them and run their life for them!

Somehow, this item from good ol Ben Franklin seems apropos here:
-----------------<quote lifted from some web page>-------------------
If you get a prudent, healthy wife, your Industry in your Profession, with
her good Economy, will be a Fortune sufficient.
But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking that Commerce
with the Sex is inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice that in your
Amours you should prefer old Women to young ones. This you call a Paradox,
and demand my reasons. They are these:

1. Because they have more Knowledge of the world, and their Minds are better
stored with Observations; their conversation is more improving, and more
lastingly agreeable.

2. Because when Women cease to be handsome, they study to be good. To
maintain their Influence over Man, they supply the Diminution of Beauty by
an Augmentation of Utility. They learn to do a thousand Services, small and
great, and are the most tender and useful of Friends when you are sick. Thus
they continue amiable. And hence there is hardly such a thing to be found as
an Old Woman who is not a good Woman.

3. Because there is no hazard of children, which irregularly produced may be
attended with much inconvenience.

4. Because through more Experience they are more prudent and discreet in
conducting an Intrigue to prevent Suspicion. The Commerce with them is
therefore safer with regard to your reputation; and regard to theirs, if the
Affair should happen to be known, considerate People might be inclined to
excuse an old Woman, who would kindly take care of a young Man, form his
manners by her good Councils, and prevent his ruining his Health and Fortune
among mercenary Prostitutes.

5. Because in every Animal that walks upright, the Deficiency of the Fluids
that fill the Muscles appears first in the highest Part. The Face first
grows lank and Wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower
parts continuing to the last as plump as ever; so that covering all above
with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible
of two Women to know an old one from a young one. And as in the Dark all
Cats are grey, the Pleasure of Corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at
least equal and frequently superior; every Knack being by Practice capable
by improvement.

6. Because the sin is less. The Debauching of a Virgin may be her Ruin, and
make her Life unhappy.

7. Because the Compunction is less. The having made a young Girl miserable
may give you frequent bitter Reflections; none of which can attend making an
old Woman happy.

8. 8th & lastly. They are so grateful!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:409703B6.54EA@armory.com...

--------------------------
Haha! If you only REALLY knew!

It's amazing how many unadorned 40-50-something women want just an
intelligent lick/suck/fuck-friend who DOESN'T want to move in with
them and run their life for them!

Yeah, the fat old snaggle-tooth has-been spinsters are easy, aren't
they?

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:409705F8.65B5@armory.com...

The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old
parchments or musty records. They are written as with a sunbeam in the
whole volume of human nature by the hand of Divinity itself, and can
never be erased or obscured by mortal power.
- Alexander Hamilton
-------------------
And when they are established, humanity will at last flourish!!

Odd that you make such an assertion when, by your words, you indicate
that you've dedicated every fiber of your being to the opposite.

Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c78l3m$brh$1@news.epidc.co.kr...

On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 09:07:14 -0400) it happened Chuck Harris
cfharris@erols.com> wrote in <40979583$0$3020$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:

Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)

Who's the Boss?
When the Lord made man, all the parts of the body argued over who would be
boss.

The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he
should be boss. The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted
to go, they should be boss. The stomach countered with the explanation that
since he digested all the food, he should be boss. The eyes said that
without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss. Then the asshole
applied for the job. The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this
that the asshole became mad and closed up.

After a few days...

The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes
got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.

This proved that you don't have to be a brain to be boss...

Just an Asshole.



Cheers!
Rich

 

[John S. Dyson]

In article <c78l3m$brh$1@news.epidc.co.kr>,
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> writes:

On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 09:07:14 -0400) it happened Chuck Harris
cfharris@erols.com> wrote in <40979583$0$3020$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:

R. Steve Walz wrote:

You want equal outcome, despite differences in ability, effort, and pure
dumb luck.

------------------------
Nope, greater effort should result in greater wealth, effort is to
be measured solely by the hours spent at productive labor requested
by the Majority.

That right there is what killed the Soviet Union's socialist experiment.
You are using quantity of work as the predictor of one's wealth, not
quality of work.

The capitalistic system always rewards quality of work more than it
rewards simple quantity.

You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.

-Chuck
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.

Apparently, unlike your area, we don't defecate in the trench outside

of the front of our homes. This is probably one reason for the latent
odor from those living in those areas that you suggest... Most of
our 'ditches' tend to be dug by digging machines, as designed by
engineers.

John

 

[Jeffrey C. Dege]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 14:59:00 -0400, Chuck Harris <cfharris@erols.com> wrote:

Jan Panteltje wrote:

You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.

Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)

The engineer can always become a ditch digger. All it takes is a shovel
and a pick. Can the ditch digger become an engineer if you give him a
calculator?

http://jim.com/cat/capital.htm

In Catalonia, while the libertarian socialists had power,
the entertainment industry was socialized, but for some time the
collectives were left with substantial real power over their individual
theaters, so that in practice this was closer to collectivization than
socialization, which meant that at first there was a free market in
entertainment -- at first the people went to see what they wanted
to see, rather than what their masters decided would be good for
them to see. Naturally they wanted to see certain singers and not
others. The theater industry democratically and freely voted that
everyone would have the same wage: 15 pesetas, long holidays, and
lots of benefits. Blood of Spain, page 222:

As a demonstration of the efforts being made, let it be realized
that the greatest of opera singers, like Hipolito Lazaro, and the
most humble of workers are going to get the same daily wage.

Blood of Spain, page 224 then quotes Hipolito Lazaro as saying to
the Tivoli theater collective:

We are all equal now, and to prove it we all get the same
wage. Fine, since we are equal, today I am going to collect the
tickets at the door, and one of you can come up here and sing.

After a spot of haggling, his pay went up to 750 pesetas. Someone
else got 500 pesetas, and everyone else got the short end of the
stick. So if you have liberty, you will not have equality. He was
able to get 750 pesetas because he was free to leave or to refuse to
work as directed, same reason as I get rather good pay today.

If the workers are free to organize as they choose and use capital as
they choose, they will use it for profit, and you will have a free
market system that will turn back into capitalism in two or three
years -- indeed it only took two or three months for alarmingly
powerful signs of capitalism to reappear in Catalonia.

If this problem is solved by "coordination" that forcibly prevents
them from acting in the way most profitable to each particular person
or small group, then you have a single all powerful monopoly state,
and it is back to the killing fields, as also happened in Catalonia.

--
If ever the free institutions of America are destroyed, that event may
be attributed to the omnipotence of the majority, which may at some
future time urge the minorities to desperation and oblige them to have
recourse to physical force. Anarchy will then be the result, but it will
have been brought about by despotism.
- Alexis De Toqueville

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 17:58:30 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 03:38:51 GMT) it happened "R. Steve Walz"
rstevew@armory.com> wrote in <40971112.2CE3@armory.com>:

Saint wrote:

I urge you to stop playing Doom for a while, and go read a book. It's
also of importance to open your window and look outside to see how the
real world is going.
--------------
I've NEVER played "Doom" and I've read FAR more than YOU have!
Believe it!
Believe? But you are against religion!

---
You're an ass.

An assertion which can be easily tested requires no dogma except that
the outcome of the test be considered valid if the premise is true.

In this instance, a simple reading list would suffice to determine the
truth of the premise, so take your supercilious opinion and stuff it
back up your ass where it belongs.

What the hell is it with you losers, anyway?

You seem to think that just because you have some half-baked idea
about how everything should be and you've been given the means whereby
you can express yourselves that your idiotic prattle is important.

Think again.

Before you can rise up out of the noise you need to know something
about where on the spectrum you belong, and from what I've seen so
far, you seem to think that you're broadband enough, and the best
thing to come along since sliced bread, that you're fit to render
decisions about just about everything.

You're not.

You're basically just an opinionated clueless fuck who will spend the
rest of his life wishing for things to happen which will prove him
right.

--
John Fields

 

[R. Steve Walz]

John S. Dyson wrote:

In article <40972DB6.1EF2@armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> writes:
John S. Dyson wrote:

In article <40972721.5B9B@armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> writes:
Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:

On Tue, 04 May 2004 03:37:31 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
The Majority does, and what it chooses finally inevitably, will
be the Established Truth for this species.

And if the majority decides to sentence someone to death one day, and
then to revoke the sentence the next?
---------------------------
Ooops. They do that already, my system is no different.

Ooops, your claim is definitely wrong WRT in the US.
----------------
I guess you haven't read about the Innocence Project's review
of executions the last 20 years.

You are being dishonest about the context. (This isn't 'I guess', but is
proven.) Here I'll re-insert the context:
--------------------------------

No you won't, you'll be disingenuous again.

And if the majority decides to sentence someone to death one day, and
then to revoke the sentence the next?
---------------------------
Ooops. They do that already, my system is no different.

Here -- I make the claim that this isn't the American system. The
'majority' doesn't really make the decision, in fact, a Judge can
throw out a death sentence. The US laws set guidelines that are
much more restrictive than your mob rule mentality.
-------------------------------

The majority sets up and operates the courts, they can do it directly
or indirectly. No such distinction as you make exists. Your "mob"
notion about direct democracy is merely disingenuous.

Note that you are creating a straw argument about mistaken innocent
guilty verdicts. This has nothing to do with your suggested lawless society,
where it is totally by fiat.
----------------------------

I never postulated any such thing, how ridiculous, is THAT what you
think a majority Democratic govt would be?? No wonder you're confused!
Of course the Majority is going to write down laws it decides. How
could any system work otherwise, you dipshit!!??

Note also that TOO OFTEN there are political
agendas that
------------------------------

That what? You actually think this system has no principls of law??
You're dim.

The rule
of law is the basis of our decision making processes, while a
Jury only ejudicates the decision based upon the law (modulo
Jury nullification.) There are MANY MANY more checks and balances
in the American system beyond your beloved MOB RULE.
-----------------------------
I have no such love. You're a liar.
Democracy is the opposite of mob rule.

Anyone who knows what Democracy is -- it is definitely a mob
rule form of government. Are you stupid enough to believe that
there is any democracy in the world (or any system could function
under a democracy?) A very, very small state (perhaps a few 10ks),
with a homogeneous population might be able to be sustained
as a democracy or even a socialist state, but beyond that,
it is a wet dream of yours. A family is a perfect example of
the effective scale of 'socialism', for example.
-----------------------------------

Nonsense, it functions perfectly well in small or large groups,
always has. And your notion that it must be socialist is stupid,
this system itself is a counter-example, I only maintain that
a developed system will inevitably progress in that direction.

Now, if you want to use common language usage where the American
system is called a 'democracy', then we have to define a huge
set of terms, because in a necessarily technical sense, even
though commonly called a 'democracy', the so called 'democratic'
systems in the world are not (and can not be) democratic.
---------------------------------

The current system is only a bare democracy, largely unfulfilled
in its promise and ill-grasped by the People who are yet living
in a cryto-feudalist state, having relinquished most power to
the rich political descendants of the medieval feudal nobility.

Democracy requires, most of all, education, to come into its own.

If you want to discuss these issues, then YOU MUST describe your
system in detail, along with the legal system and the political
system. 'Democracy' doesn't cut it, unless you mean mob rule.
-------------------------------

Mobs aren't Majorities, Majorities don't need to organize mobs,
they HAVE the power WITHOUT that, you're completely ridiculous.

I wouldn't call you a liar, but simply recognize that you are
incompetent. Obviously, you are talking about things that you
aren't competent to discuss.
---------------------------------

I can discuss whatever you like, but you never get around to that
for your penchant for dishonest disingenuity.

Now, if you want to define your terms, then there might be a
basis of discussion: for example, the US is a constitutional
government with some democratic elections for various kinds of
representatives. Even though it is accurate, it isn't sufficient.
------------------------------

It's a barely functional hijacked political democracy, whereas
a full Majority Democracy will be economic, social, and political,
and will not be hijacked by a powerful minority.

So, start defining your terms, and specify the various governmental
and economic structures. Otherwise, you just blather.

John
----------------------------

If you get round to it, I can teach you.
If you decide to just lie and disinform some more, you can do that
instead.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

John S. Dyson wrote:

In article <40972A67.4143@armory.com>,
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> writes:
John S. Dyson wrote:

In article <slrnc9e69e.m69.jdege@jdege.visi.com>,
jdege@jdege.visi.com (Jeffrey C. Dege) writes:
On Tue, 04 May 2004 03:37:31 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
The Majority does, and what it chooses finally inevitably, will
be the Established Truth for this species.

And if the majority decides to sentence someone to death one day, and
then to revoke the sentence the next?

Tyranny of the majority is just as much to be denounced and resisted as
any other.

There is too often a propaganda mistake made by the US, but perhaps
it is necessary: Democracy (in the literal sense) is tyrranical, and
should be avoided.
---------------
Nonsense.
Majorities who vote rights for one vote those same rights for
themselves. No Majority votes to enslave a minority, because
each wonders if he might be next!!

Wrong -- take a look at the structure in Iraq (without external
manipulation), and evaluate the effect of 'Democracy.'
------------

They had no such "democracy" except in the sense of the people
deserving whatever they will put up with.

Hint:
the numbers will show that the Shite majority will have effective
control. Then, take a look at the probable Sunni/Kurd dissidents,
and think about the chaos resulting from human nature. The
fear of being in the 'minority' is non-operative because of the
long term (timescale) feedback process. People don't tend to
think much beyond the 6month-2yr timeframe, so the feedback that
you suppose is nonexistant. Essentially, you set-up the resultant
situation for tyrrany of one kind or another.
------------------------

That's NOT a democracy merely because people are afflicted with
whatever they'll put up with.

The only way to maintain stability in such a naturally federal system
is to set a framework where rights are maintained, and laws subordinate
to the constitution won't threaten the freedom or rights of the minority.
--------------------------

Nonsense. Minorities canot be allowed to violate the principles of
the Majority. Illiterate religious nutcakes can NEVER, repreat,
NEVER adapt to a decent secular Majority Democracy. They will
inevitably have to be suppressed, deprogrammed, converted by the
swotrd and violence, and reducated. Majority Democracy can never
be a mechanism to compromise all decent principles of freedom,
it simply won't ever work for that.

A system with democratic elections and constitutional guarantees for
rights and freedom is one example that provides some balance -- but
is NOT a democratic system per se. There are likely other systems
that can provide the balance, but they will definitely NOT be democratic.
-------------------------------

I can't tell if we're saying the same thing here or not.

Democracy in your way of thinking is tantamount to mob rule. It is
clear that you don't have the ability to think about in-depth
(or even trivial) consequences of idealistically pure results of
mental masturbation.
----------------------

Majority Democracy can never be a mob, it doesn't need one, since it
is power incarnate, and all mobs are its enemies because it is the
seat of all power.

Hint: start thinking several steps beyond the idealistic imposition
that assumes a beneavolent ruler, and then evaluation the various
destablizing factors and how the system will maintain balance before
destruction (or the creation of your so beloved stalin like leader,
------------

Disingenuous.

which is the epitome of non-democratic, but almost directly resulting
from pure democracy and human nature.)
----------------

And your strawman only.

Your kind of system can certainly work on the american sized family
level of complexity, or perhaps even slightly larger (perhaps on
a tribal basis.) Beyond that, even at a US county sized entity,
your system will break down into dictatorship (again, unless
there are constitutional guarantees.)

John
-----------------------------

American families aren't democratic, though they should be. Nor can
a Majority Democracy ever be a dictatorship, it doesn't NEED to!!
When a Majority decides what will be, it is the final word!

This is just more of your insipid disingenuity whereby you merely
prate that this equates to that with no ability to defend your
assertions, and not even any attempt to do so either.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:

On Tue, 04 May 2004 04:52:45 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:

Because even if
you could manage such a redistribution, only weeks later the distribution
would be uneven again, because of differences in individual's desires,
ability, and chance.
----------------
Land then will no longer be salable, only tradable for the same
amount of residential land and home. All other land is governed
for social use by the Local Majority.

If you can't sell it, you don't own it.
----------------

No, if you SELL it, THEN you don't own it, and might as well never!!

Preventing people from selling land for labor prevents people from
becoming idiotically homeless, and from intermixing two totally
contradictory kinds of property, goods from labor vs land from the
earth. Land has no firm value as labor, so it cannot be exchanged
FOR labor.

What you plan is to have all land owned by the government, and controlled
by those in power.
-------------------------

The power is the Majority, which holds the entire world in common.

"Own" is a made-up word dating from the theft of land by the wealthy.
It is not real. ask a Native American.

In other words, a return to feudalism.
-----------------------------

Feudalism is the absconding by a minority with Majority power.
So no, a Majority can never be a minority or a feudalism.

is a modest and even humble creed, based on a low opinion of
men's wisdom and capacities and aware that, withing the range for which
we can plan, even the best society will not satisfy all our desires.
--------------------

An idiotic notion. The only things a decent society cannot offer
are the rewards of crime, because it refuses to!

It is as remote from perfectionism as it is from the hurry and impatience
of the passionate reformer, whose indignation about particular evils
so often blinds him to the harm and injustice that the realization of
his plans is likely to produce.
-----------------

This Right-wing Rightist asshole sure hates reformers, as only a
greedy dishonest shit-pig of a feudal capitalist can possibly do.

Ambition, impatience, and hurry are
often admirable in individuals; but they are pernicious if they guide
the power of coercion and if improvement depends on those who, when
authority is conferred on them, assume that in their authority lies
superior wisdom and thus the right to impose their beliefs on others.
-------------------------------

The Majority always imposes its beliefs upon others, that is its
purpose and its right.

I hope our generation may have learned that it has been perfectionism of
one kind or another that has often destroyed whatever degree of decency
societies have achieved.
-----------------

Nothing but rich-purchased anti-socialist propaganda.
The rich want you to think that perfection always fails
so that they can keep their imperfect system of systematic
theft that benefits them so vastly.

It's disingenuous, they don't really give a fuck about
perfection or imperfection, only their wealth and greed
and their next vacation in Cabo!!

With more limited objectives, more patience,
and more humility, we may in fact advance further and faster than we have
done while under the guidance of "a proud and most presumptive confidence
in the transcendent wisdom of this age, and in its discernment."
- F.A. Hayek, "The Constitution of Liberty"
---------------------------------------

Garbage.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Jeffrey C. Dege wrote:

On Tue, 04 May 2004 05:26:56 GMT, R. Steve Walz <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
John S. Dyson wrote:

There is too often a propaganda mistake made by the US, but perhaps
it is necessary: Democracy (in the literal sense) is tyrranical, and
should be avoided.
---------------
Nonsense.
Majorities who vote rights for one vote those same rights for
themselves. No Majority votes to enslave a minority, because
each wonders if he might be next!! The Majority only votes
to oppose criminality.

And if the majority votes that R. Steve Walz is an Enemy of the
People, and his property should be siezed, and he imprisoned, for the
encouragement of the others?
--------------------------------

Then it won't be the final evolution of the Majority Democracy.

That happened in the 50's with McCarthy. The People were duped
by the rich for a while. They were more illiterate politically.

[archaic crap deleted]

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Chuck Harris wrote:

R. Steve Walz wrote:

You want equal outcome, despite differences in ability, effort, and pure
dumb luck.

------------------------
Nope, greater effort should result in greater wealth, effort is to
be measured solely by the hours spent at productive labor requested
by the Majority.

That right there is what killed the Soviet Union's socialist experiment.
---------------

Nope. Never happened, read the detail. People were paid differently
as some alleged means of incentive, so are you now saying that
incentive failed?? Get educated before you spew nonsense.

You are using quantity of work as the predictor of one's wealth, not
quality of work.
-------------------------------------

Not predictor, predicator. The quality is guaranteed by the worker
peer group and the Majority that authorizes them that authority.
The worker peer group risks losing their authority to be a guild
if they are dishonest, it is in their best interest to hold their
co-workers to standards of quality or fire them.

The capitalistic system always rewards quality of work more than it
rewards simple quantity.
----------------------------

There is no need to reward quality, that's what quality control and
worker peer group authority to fire are for. There is only the need
to reward hours of labor.

You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong.
-----------------------

Saying it is so, unfortunately for all you who decline to reason,
is not the same as showing it is so, reasonably. And you never ever
seem to do that!

When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service.
-----------------------

When a ditch is dug, it stays dug, it doesn't have to be re-done.
If a pipe was laid in it that carries thousands of phone calls, then
a city of people and their lives are enriched by the Internet. I see
no difference, and you must be truly lame to think you were making
any sense at all with that lame-ass excuse for a rationale!!!

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

The two efforts are not even close to equal.
-Chuck
------------------------

They're fucking identically equal!!!

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

John S. Dyson wrote:

In article <c78l3m$brh$1@news.epidc.co.kr>,
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> writes:
On a sunny day (Tue, 04 May 2004 09:07:14 -0400) it happened Chuck Harris
cfharris@erols.com> wrote in <40979583$0$3020$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>:

R. Steve Walz wrote:

You want equal outcome, despite differences in ability, effort, and pure
dumb luck.

------------------------
Nope, greater effort should result in greater wealth, effort is to
be measured solely by the hours spent at productive labor requested
by the Majority.

That right there is what killed the Soviet Union's socialist experiment.
You are using quantity of work as the predictor of one's wealth, not
quality of work.

The capitalistic system always rewards quality of work more than it
rewards simple quantity.

You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.

-Chuck
Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.

Apparently, unlike your area, we don't defecate in the trench outside
of the front of our homes.[]
John
--------------------

Think sewer pipe, moron!!

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Chuck Harris wrote:

Jan Panteltje wrote:

You say that a ditch digger's hours are as valuable as an engineering
designer's. But you are wrong. When a ditch digger finishes digging
his ditch, a ditch is dug. When an engineer finishes a good design,
his labor puts vast numbers of people to work, and society is enrichened
by a new product or service. The two efforts are not even close to
equal.

-Chuck

Na, when the ditch digger can't dig, the engineer can't shit (if the dig
was for a sewer for example), and make no products.
No roads no transport no sales...
The ditch digger should get all the money ;-)

The engineer can always become a ditch digger. All it takes is a shovel
and a pick. Can the ditch digger become an engineer if you give him a
calculator?

-Chuck
-------------------------

If the State educates him, which is his equal right, sure. It matters
not whether someone can do a different job instantly, compensation
must be fair, and fairness is not about education or no edcuation.
The Democracy is made up of both kinds of people, and THEY ALL decide
politically what Fairness is!! If you can't require an engineering
degree to vote, then Wage Fairness has nothing to do with education.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[Tim Auton]

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:
[snip]

Nonsense. Minorities canot be allowed to violate the principles of
the Majority. Illiterate religious nutcakes can NEVER, repreat,
NEVER adapt to a decent secular Majority Democracy.

You sound just like a religious nutcase.


Tim
--
Love is a travelator.