Ventilator

[Clifford Heath]

The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is linked
to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard can it
be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two weeks?"

Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask, but...
what else?

Clifford Heath.

 

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> wrote in
news:eizbG.452990$ls7.67945@fx40.iad:

The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is
linked to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking
at my extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how
hard can it be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the
next two weeks?"

Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these
things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask,
but... what else?

Clifford Heath.

It is about oxygen infusion such that the patient survives the
inflammation that the immune response causes. Most of the deaths are
from pneumonia.

I think an oxygenated perfluorocarbon 'rinse' would do some good
too. Or maybe it would make one even more vulnerable.

So, a oxygenated fluorocarbon rinse WITH a two week stay in an
oxygen tent.

No wait.

Do you means forced respiration like in the old Iron Lung thing?

In that case, the best, cheapest solution is some kind of home
applied intubation with a pure Oxygen stream. That way, the patient
gets oxygen, yet does not need to respirate as much back into the
room.

What we need are coughing protocols.

Folks need to be less externally 'wet'. breath is typically very
high humidity. So more than coughing, simple respiration can be a
transmission vector.

So, the social separation thing is good advice.

It is not really about touching one's face if one is are cognisant
about what one does with one's hands. I DO touch my face quite often,
but I also know where my hands have been. I even scrub the back of
my hand, which most folks 'graze' over. I also do dishes, by hand,
in very hot water, for many many minutes. My hands are almost as
clean as a surgeon's.

Watch how fast (and hard) you talk when facing someone as well.
Talk through your hand at in inch or two, or be very conscious that
your speech is low velocity.

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is linked
to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard can it
be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two weeks?"

None that you can legally use on a human being. There are rigorous safety hurdles you must pass for equipment like this. In particular it is not so easy to inflate lungs without doing damage. Consider that air is normally drawn into the lungs by the partial vacuum created, not by an elevated pressure created on the outside. Too much pressure into the lungs and damage is done to the alveoli, air gets into the bloodstream and the person dies of an embolism.

Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask, but...
what else?

I think we need to take your slide rule away and teach you to wash your hands well and often.

--

Rick C.

- Get 10,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:12:16 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is linked
to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard can it
be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two weeks?"

None that you can legally use on a human being. There are rigorous safety hurdles you must pass for equipment like this. In particular it is not so easy to inflate lungs without doing damage. Consider that air is normally drawn into the lungs by the partial vacuum created, not by an elevated pressure created on the outside. Too much pressure into the lungs and damage is done to the alveoli, air gets into the bloodstream and the person dies of an embolism.


Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask, but...
what else?

I think we need to take your slide rule away and teach you to wash your hands well and often.

F**k you and your slide-rule insults. If you have nothing to offer, then say nothing!

I daresay plenty of rules will be broken when enough people start dying. Whether you admit it or not, that's imminent. How many deaths will it take? Experts are predicting a million deaths in the USA alone. Seattle is already deciding who gets the machines, and who dies - and it's only just beginning.

If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:21:01 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:12:16 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is linked
to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard can it
be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two weeks?"

None that you can legally use on a human being. There are rigorous safety hurdles you must pass for equipment like this. In particular it is not so easy to inflate lungs without doing damage. Consider that air is normally drawn into the lungs by the partial vacuum created, not by an elevated pressure created on the outside. Too much pressure into the lungs and damage is done to the alveoli, air gets into the bloodstream and the person dies of an embolism.


Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask, but....
what else?

I think we need to take your slide rule away and teach you to wash your hands well and often.

F**k you and your slide-rule insults. If you have nothing to offer, then say nothing!

I daresay plenty of rules will be broken when enough people start dying. Whether you admit it or not, that's imminent. How many deaths will it take? Experts are predicting a million deaths in the USA alone. Seattle is already deciding who gets the machines, and who dies - and it's only just beginning.

If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?

OMG! I was making a joke. No one is going to have home made ventilators. By the time they are sick enough to have need for one they will already be in either the hospital or the Torchwood death ovens. No need to torture anyone with a vacuum cleaner ventilator. Just let them die naturally or give them an overdose of a barbiturate.

I haven't seen the death forecasts. Considering that in China they have slowed the infection rate to a few handfuls a day after some 80,000 have been infected. Why would you think we are going to see millions die? Do you think the rest of the world is incapable of imposing military law and locking down cities enough to stop this thing? I'm reading they are already talking about limiting interstate travel in the US.

While some of our leaders want to demonize China over this issue, they are the shining light on how to handle this pandemic. I guess some people aren't willing to do what it takes. They'd rather dream impossible dreams.

Stay at home and don't get infected. That is literally the best advice.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

Aaaand, here you have it. Open Source Ventilators...

https://www.projectopenair.org/

 

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:39:13 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:21:01 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:
If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?
OMG! I was making a joke.

It wasn't funny. You should have known that.

I haven't seen the death forecasts. Considering that in China they have slowed the infection rate to a few handfuls a day after some 80,000 have been infected.
While some of our leaders want to demonize China over this issue, they are the shining light on how to handle this pandemic.

By welding sick people inside apartment buildings with healthy ones? I can't see that working here. Not least because most houses have timber frames.

> Why would you think we are going to see millions die?

Because that's what the top epidemiologists are saying - about a million, not millions.

> Do you think the rest of the world is incapable of imposing military law...

That will be too little, too late, like everything else about the US response.

> Stay at home and don't get infected. That is literally the best advice.

Right. That's my plan. Unfortunately our broadband is broken (I'm tethering) and my SO cannot WFH. She is putting herself and me at risk instead.

 

[dcaster@krl.org]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:21:01 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:12:16 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is linked
to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard can it
be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two weeks?"

None that you can legally use on a human being. There are rigorous safety hurdles you must pass for equipment like this. In particular it is not so easy to inflate lungs without doing damage. Consider that air is normally drawn into the lungs by the partial vacuum created, not by an elevated pressure created on the outside. Too much pressure into the lungs and damage is done to the alveoli, air gets into the bloodstream and the person dies of an embolism.


Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask, but....
what else?

I think we need to take your slide rule away and teach you to wash your hands well and often.

F**k you and your slide-rule insults. If you have nothing to offer, then say nothing!

I daresay plenty of rules will be broken when enough people start dying. Whether you admit it or not, that's imminent. How many deaths will it take? Experts are predicting a million deaths in the USA alone. Seattle is already deciding who gets the machines, and who dies - and it's only just beginning.

If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?

_You may not be old enough to remember " iron lungs ' , but they did not use a bellows and face mask. Try googling " iron lung " . It might give you an idea of what is needed.

Dan

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:46:25 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:21:01 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:12:16 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is linked
to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard can it
be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two weeks?"

None that you can legally use on a human being. There are rigorous safety hurdles you must pass for equipment like this. In particular it is not so easy to inflate lungs without doing damage. Consider that air is normally drawn into the lungs by the partial vacuum created, not by an elevated pressure created on the outside. Too much pressure into the lungs and damage is done to the alveoli, air gets into the bloodstream and the person dies of an embolism.


Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask, but...
what else?

I think we need to take your slide rule away and teach you to wash your hands well and often.

F**k you and your slide-rule insults. If you have nothing to offer, then say nothing!

I daresay plenty of rules will be broken when enough people start dying.. Whether you admit it or not, that's imminent. How many deaths will it take? Experts are predicting a million deaths in the USA alone. Seattle is already deciding who gets the machines, and who dies - and it's only just beginning.

If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?

_You may not be old enough to remember " iron lungs ' , but they did not use a bellows and face mask. Try googling " iron lung " . It might give you an idea of what is needed.

Dan

I am not speaking from specific knowledge of ventilators, but I do know an iron lung is a different device. That was used to inflate a patient's lungs because their muscles were immobilized from a polio infection. Their head was outside of the iron lung and the pressure inside would vary to draw a partial vacuum which would result in the chest rising and filling with air through the normal passageways which were connected to the normal air pressure outside.

I believe a ventilator is different in that the patient's airways are at least partially blocked. The patient can move their diaphragm and chest to inflate their lungs. But the fluid inside the lung prevents much air from reaching the alveoli where the oxygen can transport to the blood. So a positive pressure is used to inflate more of the lung. I have no idea how they prevent damage while doing this. I'm sure it also helps to provide pure O2 while doing this.

I really don't think this is at all a practical home brew project. But I'm happy for someone to show me I'm wrong.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 3/15/2020 9:52 PM, clifford.heath@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:39:13 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:21:01 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:
If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?
OMG! I was making a joke.

It wasn't funny. You should have known that.
...

I thought it was. Please calm down.

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:52:37 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:39:13 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:21:01 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:
If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?
OMG! I was making a joke.

It wasn't funny. You should have known that.

It is funny to anyone who realizes the futility of trying to make your own ventilator.

I haven't seen the death forecasts. Considering that in China they have slowed the infection rate to a few handfuls a day after some 80,000 have been infected.
While some of our leaders want to demonize China over this issue, they are the shining light on how to handle this pandemic.


By welding sick people inside apartment buildings with healthy ones? I can't see that working here. Not least because most houses have timber frames..

What the F does timber have to do with it??? Where else are you going to put the many, many infected people in your scenario other than at home? The Chinese built "hospitals" nearly overnight, but then had no one to provide medical care in them... NONE! They wouldn't move people to proper hospitals because there was NO ROOM!

That was from a region of some millions of people being in quarantine. They stopped it from raging through their entire country. If we can't do the same thing we don't deserve to live.

Interesting how Trump got tested as soon as he *might* have been exposed. We don't seem to have that luxury for the rest of us.

Why would you think we are going to see millions die?

Because that's what the top epidemiologists are saying - about a million, not millions.

A million here, millions elsewhere. So why do the "top epidemiologists" (reminds me of the closing scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark") think the new infection rate is so low now in China and yet in the US we are doomed???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdjf4lMmiiI

Do you think the rest of the world is incapable of imposing military law...

That will be too little, too late, like everything else about the US response.

Stay at home and don't get infected. That is literally the best advice..

Right. That's my plan. Unfortunately our broadband is broken (I'm tethering) and my SO cannot WFH. She is putting herself and me at risk instead.

So quit the job.... unless she works in the medical profession which is not unlike being a soldier. They all take the job knowing the risks. No, it can't be that or she would have gotten you the secret hospital plans for Rube Goldberg ventilators.

If I were still working, I would quit rather than go to work at this point. Once it is all over they will be needing to replace the engineers who didn't stay at home. Sad, but true.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 16/3/20 2:08 pm, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:00:01 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 16/3/20 1:57 pm, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
On the question of home made ventilators, the mechanism is pretty simple and I'm sure could be copied at home
Please do say more. It seems that you may have some of the information
that I came here for.

Clifford Heath

You've already been given a link to a project that is doing exactly what you want. Check it out. It will provide a lot of information that you won't get in this group. They currently have some 2000 people who are helping. Some of the approaches are so simple you can build it at home. I just don't know any of the details required to actually make it useful to a patient. But there is some 30 pages of useful info already.

Thanks, but I asked tabby. There's good info even on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_ventilator

CH.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 16/3/20 1:57 pm, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
> On the question of home made ventilators, the mechanism is pretty simple and I'm sure could be copied at home
Please do say more. It seems that you may have some of the information
that I came here for.

Clifford Heath

 

On Monday, 16 March 2020 01:59:24 UTC, Rick C wrote:

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:46:25 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:21:01 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, March 16, 2020 at 12:12:16 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is linked
to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard can it
be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two weeks?"

None that you can legally use on a human being. There are rigorous safety hurdles you must pass for equipment like this. In particular it is not so easy to inflate lungs without doing damage. Consider that air is normally drawn into the lungs by the partial vacuum created, not by an elevated pressure created on the outside. Too much pressure into the lungs and damage is done to the alveoli, air gets into the bloodstream and the person dies of an embolism.


Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask, but...
what else?

I think we need to take your slide rule away and teach you to wash your hands well and often.

F**k you and your slide-rule insults. If you have nothing to offer, then say nothing!

I daresay plenty of rules will be broken when enough people start dying. Whether you admit it or not, that's imminent. How many deaths will it take? Experts are predicting a million deaths in the USA alone. Seattle is already deciding who gets the machines, and who dies - and it's only just beginning.

If my family start dying, you think I'm gonna worry about getting chastised?

_You may not be old enough to remember " iron lungs ' , but they did not use a bellows and face mask. Try googling " iron lung " . It might give you an idea of what is needed.

Dan

I am not speaking from specific knowledge of ventilators, but I do know an iron lung is a different device. That was used to inflate a patient's lungs because their muscles were immobilized from a polio infection. Their head was outside of the iron lung and the pressure inside would vary to draw a partial vacuum which would result in the chest rising and filling with air through the normal passageways which were connected to the normal air pressure outside.

I believe a ventilator is different in that the patient's airways are at least partially blocked. The patient can move their diaphragm and chest to inflate their lungs. But the fluid inside the lung prevents much air from reaching the alveoli where the oxygen can transport to the blood. So a positive pressure is used to inflate more of the lung. I have no idea how they prevent damage while doing this. I'm sure it also helps to provide pure O2 while doing this.

I really don't think this is at all a practical home brew project. But I'm happy for someone to show me I'm wrong.

There are still people that rely on iron lungs to survive, and can't use modern ventilators. No-one has made the machines for half a century or more, so they're all old & patched up, typically operating in private homes with no routine maintenance and no parts availability.

On the question of home made ventilators, the mechanism is pretty simple and I'm sure could be copied at home. Naturally there are risks in doing so, including legal ones, but in the unlikely event that your family member is unable to get access to a good one and unable to survive without one, if sensible you'll cobble one together and probably live. From what I've seen of American attitudes to medicine it will be the country least capable & willing to do so. Most able will probably be Russia.


NT

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 9:59:44 PM UTC-4, cliffo...@gmail.com wrote:

Aaaand, here you have it. Open Source Ventilators...

https://www.projectopenair.org/

Ok, I signed up!

Wow! I thought this was a complicated job for a home brew. After seeing what this project is currently thinking, it is a huge project with many different approaches. I'm not even sure what their goals are.

We have some time to ramp up to deal with this disease. Why can't we just get the manufacturers to make more now? That seems so obvious. The feds are ready to write checks all over the place. This seems like an obvious way to spend money usefully.

Who's in charge of the effort to fight the virus? Oh yeah, that would be Pence, right? Oh, but he's still trying to get testing ramped up. Ok, who's next in command?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 11:00:01 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 16/3/20 1:57 pm, tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:
On the question of home made ventilators, the mechanism is pretty simple and I'm sure could be copied at home
Please do say more. It seems that you may have some of the information
that I came here for.

Clifford Heath

You've already been given a link to a project that is doing exactly what you want. Check it out. It will provide a lot of information that you won't get in this group. They currently have some 2000 people who are helping. Some of the approaches are so simple you can build it at home. I just don't know any of the details required to actually make it useful to a patient.. But there is some 30 pages of useful info already.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:0993f79d-170f-464f-95ad-14cacffc714e@googlegroups.com:

OMG! I was making a joke. No one is going to have home made
ventilators.

Fuck you. There is an Oxygen generating machine in the next room
that fills Oxygen tanks too. My friend uses it 24/7. It would not be
that big a leap.

Well... maybe for you.

OMG! I made a joke... About you! No... About your grasp of
reality... or lack thereof.

Oh, damn... another joke... or was it?

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:4b502be0-bfbc-
45f5-ab18-5cad5a34992f@googlegroups.com:

> We have some time to ramp up to deal with this disease.

Wrong. We are oing to get what it gives and our social separation
thing is the only thing that will reduce the numbers, but the spread
is already here.

Whatch the results for the next two weeks.

Poor response means that even the hospitals have low counts of
needed elements, like simple sealed/sealable sample swabs, just for
starters.

The first four week complacency of the dumber than dogshit retard
at the top administration is DI-FUCKING-RECTLY to blame for sitting
on their thumbs while said retard in charge went golfing as he
pointed fingers around and held rallies.

Either the separation thing will work.... OR, we are all screwed
because our great nation raised a bunch of ill educated barflies
happy to be casual about things until they get swiped across the face
by them, and then it is too late.

So folks will pass. But so will this whole thing... for this
year.

This whole thing has been a wake up call for all of mankind nestled
in contently in our mostly civil world.

While Putin ramps his military manufacturing engine back up. I
liked Russia better when it was a failed USSR. Now we have to fight
the idiot KGB remnant mentality fucks anyway. And then there is
China.

You want to keep speaking English and whatever your free country's
language is? Better watch out for the remaining communist nations in
the world. They have a different mindset about governance and
domination. And obviously about reporting viral outbreaks to the
rest of the world... they wish to one dat dominate.

Essentially, intelligent mankind is screwed.

We were a noble experiment by God (the aliens)... that failed.

It's that R complex thing.

We think our brain is the mass that has the memory and our access
to that. Our real brain.... Our CPU as it were is the little
assembly of parts in the middle... deep inside.

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:43f67b5e-318c-4e4f-b2a5-96e6c45e5461@googlegroups.com:

On Sunday, March 15, 2020 at 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath
wrote:
The number of critical cases not surviving the COVID-19 virus is
linked

to the limited availability of ventilators. So I'm looking at my
extensive collection of project materials and thinking "how hard
can it

be to make a ventilator? How many could I make in the next two
weeks?"

None that you can legally use on a human being. There are
rigorous safety hurdles you must pass for equipment like this. In
particular it is not so easy to inflate lungs without doing
damage. Consider that air is normally drawn into the lungs by the
partial vacuum created, not by an elevated pressure created on the
outside. Too much pressure into the lungs and damage is done to
the alveoli, air gets into the bloodstream and the person dies of
an embolism.


Can anyone summarise the key components and functions of these
things?

I'm assuming some kind of motor-driven bellows, and a face mask,
but...

what else?

I think we need to take your slide rule away and teach you to wash
your hands well and often.

I'd hand a sign on you "Do not resuscitate".

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:8dd3c524-3ca0-4574-97cf-0296b1b59494@googlegroups.com:

It is funny to anyone who realizes the futility of trying to make
your own ventilator.

You are an idiot.

<https://www.amazon.com/s?k=cpr+rescue+mask&ref=nb_sb_noss_1>

Just bleed in Oxygen... and Vo-Ih-La! (voilŕ)

Bet you can't shoot pool either.