Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[Wild_Bill]

"NightcrawlerŽ" <dirtydeeds@dirtcheap.org> wrote in message
news:l75mep$l3p$1@dont-email.me...
>

snippage

Almost all electrons return to the generator (yes there is some loss).

So, the generator then become a pump-generator and/or
generator-compresssor.. really?

What I have written is not complete, nor does it encompass all of the
variables. (see above)

Definitely

--
Cheers,
WB
..............

 

[dave]

On 11/28/2013 09:33 AM, Tim R wrote:

On Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:22:10 AM UTC-5, Wild_Bill wrote:
What I did say (several times) is that nothng is returned to the power

source.



A (-) zero volt/DC or neutral/AC wire only takes the different voltage

potential closer to the load.. and nothing (depleted electrons, waves,

molecules, atoms etc) is being returned to either power source.

The power is consumed by the load, nothing is left over to return to

anwwhere.

Hmm. My vague memory of storage batteries says that ions migrate from one pole to the other through the electrolyte, then combine with electrons arriving through the return wire to balance the charge. At least, I'm pretty sure it was explained that way in school, which was admittedly 50 plus years ago.

It seems rather unlikely to me that the electron moving down the wire, however slowly, comes to a full stop in the load. Wouldn't the rest back up behind it?

I'm sure Phil will be back shortly to tell us how stupid we are, but to avoid explaining what the correct version is.

Not being a EE, my classes covered the macro level of how wires connect, but not what is really happening at the atomic level, and I'm finding it interesting.

DC path through a modern audio power amplifier with 2 power supplies
and no ground.

 

[Leif Neland]

Wild_Bill forklarede:

Read what is offered. never suggeted that a circut can exist with only one
wire.

You made that part up in our head, possiblly due to poor reading
comprehension sklls.

What I did say (several times) is that nothng is returned to the power
source.

A (-) zero volt/DC or neutral/AC wire only takes the different voltage
potential closer to the load.. and nothing (depleted electrons, waves,
molecules, atoms etc) is being returned to either power source.

Do you suggest electrons are being used and disappear in the load?

That would leave the power generating companies with a large waste
problem of all the ions, atoms with too few electrons.

Leif

--
Husk křrelys bagpĺ, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.

 

[Tim R]

On Friday, November 29, 2013 3:26:14 AM UTC-5, Leif Neland wrote:

Do you suggest electrons are being used and disappear in the load?



That would leave the power generating companies with a large waste

problem of all the ions, atoms with too few electrons.



Leif

Leif,
I think what he's really trying to say, probably, is that electricity is not actually the flow of electrons, but a wave that rides on top of a slow flow of electrons.

The electrons of course do return in a DC system, or jiggle in place if an AC, but the wave itself may dissipate in a load.

And I think that's probably right, but insufficiently detailed. There must be some change to the electrons.

One problem with his idea of complete dissipation in the load is that it would imply you couldn't add another load in series. That would end Christmas as we know it, with light strings on the tree.

 

[Wild_Bill]

After shuffling across the carpet in your slippers, a spark is created when
you touch a doorknob.

Following the flawed concept of "return" as a circuit concept, the spark
goes where? It travels thru a wooden door, it's hinges, the door frame,
building structure etc, to earth ground?

Or, is the spark injected into the human, from a resulting high ground
potential? Ground, (often mistakenly understood as having zero/no potential)
is lurking in doorknobs waiting to zap some unsuspecting doofus.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Harold W." <harold@Iamnot.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2013.11.26.17.39.11@Iamnot.invalid...

Wild_Bill scrit:

It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of
distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the
soil.

The guy gfretwell showed us a few amps of current heading directly into
the ground.

Where did those few amps come from, and where did they go?

 

[Wild_Bill]

IIRC, most everything is made up of electrons.. adding or removing electrons
changes the characteristcs of the material.

My point is that the term and concept of "return" as used in electrical
circuits isn't based in reality.
Nothing is beng returned to the source, the power is dissipated/expended by
the load.

Looking at a hydraulic circuit, one can easily see the purpose of the return
line.
Electrical circuits don't operate the same way, the term "return" is only a
feeble attempt at comparing electricity to liquids.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Tim R" <timothy42b@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c4bb8f09-bb4b-402d-bb2e-00bdd8166146@googlegroups.com...
On Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:22:10 AM UTC-5, Wild_Bill wrote:

What I did say (several times) is that nothng is returned to the power

source.



A (-) zero volt/DC or neutral/AC wire only takes the different voltage

potential closer to the load.. and nothing (depleted electrons, waves,

molecules, atoms etc) is being returned to either power source.

The power is consumed by the load, nothing is left over to return to

anwwhere.

Hmm. My vague memory of storage batteries says that ions migrate from one
pole to the other through the electrolyte, then combine with electrons
arriving through the return wire to balance the charge. At least, I'm
pretty sure it was explained that way in school, which was admittedly 50
plus years ago.

It seems rather unlikely to me that the electron moving down the wire,
however slowly, comes to a full stop in the load. Wouldn't the rest back up
behind it?

I'm sure Phil will be back shortly to tell us how stupid we are, but to
avoid explaining what the correct version is.

Not being a EE, my classes covered the macro level of how wires connect, but
not what is really happening at the atomic level, and I'm finding it
interesting.

 

[Maynard A. Philbrook Jr.]

In article <f5756959-b303-41bb-bd13-7111458c3734@googlegroups.com>,
timothy42b@aol.com says...

On Friday, November 29, 2013 3:26:14 AM UTC-5, Leif Neland wrote:
Do you suggest electrons are being used and disappear in the load?



That would leave the power generating companies with a large waste

problem of all the ions, atoms with too few electrons.



Leif

Leif,
I think what he's really trying to say, probably, is that electricity is not actually the flow of electrons, but a wave that rides on top of a slow flow of electrons.

The electrons of course do return in a DC system, or jiggle in place if an AC, but the wave itself may dissipate in a load.

And I think that's probably right, but insufficiently detailed. There must be some change to the electrons.

One problem with his idea of complete dissipation in the load is that it would imply you couldn't add another load in series. That would end Christmas as we know it, with light strings on the tree.

conducting materials like copper, silver, gold etc. have atoms with
lots of electrons, so much so that it's easy to knock them off, they
have a very loose bond with the atom. This is how electrons flow, when
you add and electron it causes the atom to disperse an electron to the
next atom. In other words the electrons are so loosely bonded that the
atom can not hold another electron, it has to spit another out. If there
is no one at the other end pulling out electrons, then you have charge
building up! Things get messy then if it gets excessive

Insulators work the other way, they accept electrons as charge because
the atoms have much fewer electrons and are tightly bonded. However, as
charge increases, so do the electrons around the atoms, at some point
you'll start getting leakage. Under AC, this moving in/out can also
cause heating ( not to get confused with eddy currents)

Thats enough today, I tried to keep it basic.


Jamie

 

[Tim R]

On Saturday, November 30, 2013 11:26:40 AM UTC-5, Wild_Bill wrote:

Your tree lights are most likely added in parallel when there is a

receptacle at the end of the first string, plugging anything else into the

free hanging receptacle end would be a parallel connection (assuming real

incandescent lamps).

Ah ha! We've found the Grinch. It's easy to see you've never had a string of Christmas tree lights that didn't work because one light had burned out somewhere in the middle of the string, and you have to check every light to find it. I used that example because it's one of the most common examples of a series circuit.

Yes, I understand loosely bound electrons and basic wiring. I don't understand at the atomic level how the energy gets sucked out of the stream of electrons nor what change is made to that stream.

 

On Sunday, November 2, 1997 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, v...@worldnet.att.net wrote:

Hello,

Please contact me if you have any Panasonic PV-1545 VCRs. They were
Hi-Fi four head made in the mid 80s. I am buying them in any
condition. Please e-mail with details.

Thanks,

Bill

I have panasonic pv 1545. how much is your offer to buy it.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Your tree lights are most likely added in parallel when there is a
receptacle at the end of the first string, plugging anything else into the
free hanging receptacle end would be a parallel connection (assuming real
incandescent lamps).
It's easy to assume that it may loook like a series of lights without it
actually being a series wired circuit.

If four 12V lamps are wired in series and the 2 power leads are connected to
a 12V source, the lights will share the 12v equally, making them very dim.

If the same four lamps are connected in parallel, and also to 12V by 2 power
leads, they all will illuminate at full brightness (and 4x the current of 1
lamp).

Although series or parallel still doesn't matter in common circuits, as
there is still 2 power leads, one wire with a different potential than the
other, connected to the source in either case.

Loads in homes/buildings are commonly parallel connected to the power
source.

Pick up a DIY book on basic building wiring installation to see how loads
are connected in a service panel.
If you can ignore the bullshit about the earth/planet being used as a
conductor, and the use of the term "return", you'll be able to gain a good
understanding of utility electrical power as it pertains to 120 and 240VAC
circuits.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Tim R" <timothy42b@aol.com> wrote in message
news:f5756959-b303-41bb-bd13-7111458c3734@googlegroups.com...

On Friday, November 29, 2013 3:26:14 AM UTC-5, Leif Neland wrote:
Do you suggest electrons are being used and disappear in the load?



That would leave the power generating companies with a large waste

problem of all the ions, atoms with too few electrons.



Leif

Leif,
I think what he's really trying to say, probably, is that electricity is
not actually the flow of electrons, but a wave that rides on top of a slow
flow of electrons.

The electrons of course do return in a DC system, or jiggle in place if an
AC, but the wave itself may dissipate in a load.

And I think that's probably right, but insufficiently detailed. There
must be some change to the electrons.

One problem with his idea of complete dissipation in the load is that it
would imply you couldn't add another load in series. That would end
Christmas as we know it, with light strings on the tree.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Wild_Bill wrote:

Your tree lights are most likely added in parallel when there is a
receptacle at the end of the first string, plugging anything else into the
free hanging receptacle end would be a parallel connection (assuming real
incandescent lamps).
It's easy to assume that it may loook like a series of lights without it
actually being a series wired circuit.

I've seen a lot of series string Christmas lights. They run a third
wire from the plug to the outlet.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

bud-- wrote:

On 11/26/2013 3:28 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Wild_Bill wrote:

I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".

A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.

There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.

The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.

I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.

The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.

Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.

It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.


Idiot. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return


I think it was used in the early days of the REA.

Where has it been used in the US in the last 50 years.

I don't remember ever seeing transmission or distribution lines without
a neutral.

I haven't been in a rural enough area in years to even look for one.
The fact that it isn't common doesn't mean that it doesn't still exist.
Some farms were 20 miles from the nearest highway, on a private dirt or
clay road. They were electrified by either a co-op or the TVA and 20
miles of copper wire was expensive.



--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

dave wrote:

On 11/26/2013 01:28 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Idiot. Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return


"Many national electrical regulations (notably the U.S.) require a
metallic return line from the load to the generator. In these
jurisdictions, each SWER line must be approved by exception."

Yes, the ground resistance has to be low enough to prevent gradient
voltages from killing people or animals.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Hi, groups-abuse@google.com

This character is spamming sci.electronics.repair and
sci.electronics.design with ads for cheesy power supplies.

Would you please turn him/her/it off?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

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Their customer list is diverse and includes radio stations, government,
defense, health and medical departments, mines, process control
operations, point of sale, system integrators and server room
applications to name a few.
For more details visit http://powershield.com.au

 

[Phil Hobbs]

Hi, groups-abuse@google.com

This character is spamming sci.electronics.repair and
sci.electronics.design with ads for cheesy power supplies.

Would you please turn him/her/it off?

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

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Their customer list is diverse and includes radio stations, government,
defense, health and medical departments, mines, process control
operations, point of sale, system integrators and server room
applications to name a few.
For more details visit http://powershield.com.au

 

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:59:37 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<gmail@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Hi, groups-abuse@google.com

This character is spamming sci.electronics.repair and
sci.electronics.design with ads for cheesy power supplies.

Would you please turn him/her/it off?

If no one responded, people with a decent news services wouldn't see
them.

 

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 20:44:29 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 12/5/2013 5:51 PM, krw@attt.bizz wrote:
On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:59:37 -0500, Phil Hobbs
gmail@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Hi, groups-abuse@google.com

This character is spamming sci.electronics.repair and
sci.electronics.design with ads for cheesy power supplies.

Would you please turn him/her/it off?

If no one responded, people with a decent news services wouldn't see
them.


Are you trying to say that my news service is substandard? I'm so
ashamed.

Well, you responded to Bear but if the foo shits... ;-)

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 12/5/2013 5:51 PM, krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:59:37 -0500, Phil Hobbs
gmail@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Hi, groups-abuse@google.com

This character is spamming sci.electronics.repair and
sci.electronics.design with ads for cheesy power supplies.

Would you please turn him/her/it off?

If no one responded, people with a decent news services wouldn't see
them.

Are you trying to say that my news service is substandard? I'm so
ashamed.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[N_Cook]

Did not think to try powering up, told broken.
11W large LED omniderectional room light, Medion Lifelight, 1055 lumen.
Easy enough to break into, the globe opalate glass is just for
diffussion, no vac inside.
Tried powering up the LED disc with 60V bench ps and no light.
Uses BP2812, max 135mA drive from the datasheet and application much as
in the datasheet,also 22R 1W in the supply line. 36 LEDs so probably 1
string and a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. So supply
probably > 120V at 100mA and 60V would not have lit a working one anyway.
First tried a fairly isolated LED, preheating the Al heatsink disk then
freezer spray , then more hot air and tugging on the LED just broke it
up. At least it showed which end was the heatsink terminal pair plus
underlying pad.
Cathode end is chamfered corner and feint dot under the optical surface
on these SMD LEDs. Heatsink pad to anode.
So tried a single edged old type razor blade. With shearing and slight
saw action cut under the LED anode end first, angled down into the disk
layup and when just sheared , finger over the body of the LED to hold
down while shearing the cathode end pair of pads. Insulator plus traces
layup shears from the Al disc, leaving quite clean reusable LEDs. They
all tested working order except the first obviously, another one that I
forgot to hold a finger to and it split in the middle and one that
looked fine, presumably the original failed one.
Much more interesting , and other useful stuff , inside these new
fangled lamps , including CFL, 400V 125 deg C caps, diacs etc than old
boring filament lamps

 

[Leif Neland]

N_Cook kom med fřlgende:

Much more interesting , and other useful stuff , inside these new fangled
lamps , including CFL, 400V 125 deg C caps, diacs etc than old boring
filament lamps

As a kid, I unrolled capasitors from junked tube radio/tv's to find
something interesting inside. But after I removed all the wrapping,
there was nothing. Very disappointing...

Leif

--
Husk křrelys bagpĺ, hvis din bilfabrikant har taget den idiotiske
beslutning at undlade det.