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It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.
The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:15:05 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
They are *not* both valid. You have it wrong.
Well, this entire discussion is about how the power supply works, so,
it is germane to the discussion how the power company completes the
circuit.
I don't have any more arguments, and, we *do* have at least one
reference which supports my statement.
That doesn't mean I'm correct. What it means is we need more references
(either way), instead of our statements (since we all sincerely believe
what we're stating).
Googling for:
"how does electricity get back to the power company -solar"
This is on the first page (which was referenced already):
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/power3.htm
It agrees with what I said (on page 4).
Here it says the same thing (that the earth is the return path):
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
And here:
http://www.electricityforum.com/electricity-how-it-works.html
But those are all repeats. How about this Physics forum?
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=429670
Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path
for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly
a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought
was the case.
That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.
Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same
mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone
who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return
path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:15:05 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
They are *not* both valid. You have it wrong.
Well, this entire discussion is about how the power supply works, so,
it is germane to the discussion how the power company completes the
circuit.
I don't have any more arguments, and, we *do* have at least one
reference which supports my statement.
That doesn't mean I'm correct. What it means is we need more references
(either way), instead of our statements (since we all sincerely believe
what we're stating).
Googling for:
"how does electricity get back to the power company -solar"
This is on the first page (which was referenced already):
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/power3.htm
It agrees with what I said (on page 4).
Here it says the same thing (that the earth is the return path):
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
And here:
http://www.electricityforum.com/electricity-how-it-works.html
But those are all repeats. How about this Physics forum?
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=429670
Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path
for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly
a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought
was the case.
That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.
Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same
mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone
who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return
path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:15:05 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
They are *not* both valid. You have it wrong.
Well, this entire discussion is about how the power supply works, so,
it is germane to the discussion how the power company completes the
circuit.
On 11/25/2013 5:33 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:15:05 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
They are *not* both valid. You have it wrong.
Well, this entire discussion is about how the power supply works, so,
it is germane to the discussion how the power company completes the
circuit.
This is a piece of a approx 192 post thread at a.h.r where Danny thinks
the earth is used as a conductor in power distribution. Everyone
disagrees, but he is not convinced. And the usual tangents.
His reference at howstuffworks has huge problems, as detailed at a.h.r
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
On 11/25/2013 03:33 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:15:05 -0800, trader4@optonline.net wrote:
They are *not* both valid. You have it wrong.
Well, this entire discussion is about how the power supply works, so,
it is germane to the discussion how the power company completes the
circuit.
I don't have any more arguments, and, we *do* have at least one
reference which supports my statement.
That doesn't mean I'm correct. What it means is we need more references
(either way), instead of our statements (since we all sincerely believe
what we're stating).
Googling for:
"how does electricity get back to the power company -solar"
This is on the first page (which was referenced already):
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/power3.htm
It agrees with what I said (on page 4).
Here it says the same thing (that the earth is the return path):
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
And here:
http://www.electricityforum.com/electricity-how-it-works.html
But those are all repeats. How about this Physics forum?
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=429670
Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path
for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly
a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought
was the case.
That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.
Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same
mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone
who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return
path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.
Modern polyphase power has no ground for reference.
This is a major pain
in the ass when trying to find 120Vac on top of a mountain.
I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".
A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.
There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.
The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.
I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.
The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.
Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.
It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.
I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".
A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.
There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.
The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.
I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.
The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.
Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.
It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.
Wild_Bill wrote:
I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".
A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.
There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.
The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.
I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.
The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.
Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.
It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.
Idiot. Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
Now, that does not prove that the earth is the return path
for the electricity back to the power company, but, it is clearly
a half dozen (or so) references which say what I've always thought
was the case.
That means that the idea isn't so far fetched as it may appear.
Admittedly, most of these references were cut out of the same
mold (probably due to my search terms?), so I welcome someone
who can find a reference that says the earth is *not* the return
path for the HVAC typical power generated in the USA.
On 11/26/2013 3:28 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Wild_Bill wrote:
I don't see the earlier comment, but from the links and the search question,
I presume the conversation was about a circuit term referred to as "return".
A lot f folks are fixated on naming one power lead as "return", when there
is nothng related to any sort of "return" taking place in a circuit.
There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.
The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.
I don't know where the fantasy of a return originated, but there is none iin
an electrical circuit.
Hydraulic circuit, yes, thre is generally always a return line.. for obvious
reasons.
The earth, meaning the planet, is not half of an electrical crcuit.. with
maybe one exception being lightning strikes.
Hills and terrain affect RF energy, and the ground/earth at the base of an
antenna is often imbedded with conductors to form a ground plane.
Electrical circuts deliver power to an appliance, tool, light bulb etc as
the two differing potentials, and the power is disspated as heat, light,
motion etc at the device beng powered.
It is aburd to belive that power is returned thru many miles of distribution
gear and back to the generation source, or that it's returned thru the soil.
Yet, the majorty of folks believe and continue to express/repeat this
concept.
Idiot. Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
I think it was used in the early days of the REA.
Where has it been used in the US in the last 50 years.
I don't remember ever seeing transmission or distribution lines without
a neutral.
Idiot. Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
The simple fucking fact is that it is ELECTRONS that return, not power.
... Phil
"Tim R" wrote in message
If power came out of the wire, something in the wire now has less power.
It doesn't come from the wire -- it comes from the generating device.
On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 10:23:23 AM UTC-5, Wild_Bill wrote:
There are 2 conductors.. and one is a higher potential than the other.
That's all there is to it, but you'll probably never fnd ths statement in
any text book.
The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.
Maybe you could explain this hypothetical, sort of electricity for
dummies.
Use a DC source (because electrons actually flow through a wire and we
don't have to worry about B and H waves.) 9 volt battery, incandescent
lamp like a flashlight bulb, two wires (high potential and "not return.")
Light and heat are produced in the lamp.
What changes in the electrons flowing through the wire? Energy must have
been sucked out of them, and that must be reflected in some physical
change to said electrons. They should be different pre-lamp and
post-lamp.
What happens in the "not return" line? Do electrons get past the lamp
back to the battery?
Apologies in advance if your statement was only meant for AC.
The power is disspated at the load, and there is nothing to return to any
other location.
Maybe you could explain this hypothetical, sort of electricity for
dummies.
Use a DC source (because electrons actually flow through a wire and we
don't have to worry about B and H waves.) 9 volt battery, incandescent
lamp like a flashlight bulb, two wires (high potential and "not return.")
Light and heat are produced in the lamp.
What changes in the electrons flowing through the wire?
Energy must have been sucked out of them, and that must be reflected
in some physical change to said electrons.
What happens in the "not return" line?
"Tim R" wrote in message
news:2c693612-4f67-4b6b-9cc9-bc0bbff88d6d@googlegroups.com...
On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 10:03:41 AM UTC-5, William Sommerwerck wrote:
"Tim R" wrote in message
If power came out of the wire, something in the wire now has less power.
It doesn't come from the wire -- it comes from the generating device.
Ah. The generator slows down, WITHOUT the wire knowing. Right...
I admit I don't understand it. You appear to not realize you don't
understand it.
You might be right. But the wire is a conduit, not a source.
Think of varying the nozzle opening on a garden sprayer. The hose "knows"
nothing. It just delivers more or less water, based on the water pressure and
how far the nozzle is opened.
Do the electrons actually drive around in circles or do they just bump** False concept.
Electrons leave by one wire and return to the source by the other.
If they meet "resistance" then work is done by the source in propelling them
through that resistance. The work done is heating that resistance and the
energy released is proportional to the square of the number of electrons per
second travelling in the loop.
The simple fucking fact is that it is ELECTRONS that return, not power.
... Phil