Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[jakdedert]

Arfa Daily wrote:

<snip>

The problem is on the way to being solved now, in that he has effectively
turned the room layout through 90 degrees, which has allowed him to mount
the projector directly in front of the screen ( a different white painted
wall ... ) However, this has meant a considerably more difficult run of the
cables, and longer HDMI runs etc, which is what he was trying to avoid in
the first place.

Considering the amount of money already spent on equipment--not to

mention the time involved--he might have been better served by
purchasing a screen which he could have oriented in the correct plane.
I don't know what they cost on your side of the pond, but used ones are
really cheap on eBay here (seller ID: 'avforsale' has a variety every week).

He would have also gained considerably in brightness and contrast.
Despite how good it looks now, if it's merely a painted wall (excepting
special paints made for the purpose, which are available), the
improvement would have been striking.

On the subject of correction in both directions, I have been involved with a
couple of professional installations, but from the audio installation side
rather than from the visual angle. I can't remember what projector types
they were, but they were supplied by the friend who was responsible for the
job, and who hired me in for the audio work. What I do remember, however,
was that in one of the installations, the projector was actually up in a
proper booth in a hospital lecture theatre, and was offset to the side of
the screen. The projector in question had electronic adjustments for
keystone and trapezium distortion via the remote handset, so the offset did
not represent any problem at all, as I had expected it wouldn't for my
neighbour.

I suspect that to find one with the proper correction would have cost a

good deal more. It's pretty rare on lower end gear (lower end being
consumer vs. pro). Even at that, if his supplier takes returns, he
might have been able to swap projectors. I still feel a proper screen
would have been his best bet.

In most cases, the amount of correction is hardly noticeable to viewers.
When I install projectors in meeting rooms (daily, in some of my job
assignments), I often just 'tap' the tripod supporting the screen with
my toe in order to correct a trapezoid, rather than reposition the
projector.

jak

Arfa

 

[b]

mc.preist@gmail.com ha escrito:

It hisses with interruptions, like a beep.. and when I press against
the cable with my finger the hissing increases rate and then becomes
constant (no interruptions). The cable gets really hot, but there's no
smell or anything. The led does not come on anymore also. Can it be a
surge protection system?

nah, nothing to do with 'surge protection system' (whatever that is).
Those units are typically sealed with no ventilation at all, and with
the current trend to making everything as small (and disposable) as
possible, the components run hot and this shortens the lifespan of the
device. capacitors especially suffer from this. That said, the cable
damage may have precipitated this and shorted out something on the
secondary of the power supply. In any case, it's junk. Get another.
-B.

 

[Arfa Daily]

Considering the amount of money already spent on equipment--not to
mention the time involved--he might have been better served by purchasing
a screen which he could have oriented in the correct plane. I don't know
what they cost on your side of the pond, but used ones are really cheap on
eBay here (seller ID: 'avforsale' has a variety every week).

He would have also gained considerably in brightness and contrast. Despite
how good it looks now, if it's merely a painted wall (excepting special
paints made for the purpose, which are available), the improvement would
have been striking.

I suspect that you are probably right, but 20 / 20 hindsight is a wonderful

thing, ain't it ?

d;~}

Arfa

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

"kip" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:newscache$d8rcbj$kq5$1@newsfeed.niagara.com...

Filter cap going in the vert deflection circuit.

KEEP out of the service menu ,fix the fault.

Why does everbody think that going into service menu,s will fix faults ?

kip

Wishful thinking? Maybe seen some suggestions for adjusting vertical size
to hide data? If the problem is that the geometry, size, or position is off
a bit one could be seeing data in the vertical interval and this might be
fixed with service menu adjustments on some sets.

Leonard

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[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

Yup the same one. Still fails on NOx.

I remember this.

Still fails on NOx !. So we put a new cat on it, and it STILL fails on
NOx !

Hmm, maybe a move to where emissions testing isn't commonplace is in order?

Now I do remember how they used to check for vacuum leaks, by spraying
starting fluid on the suspected areas. Is it still done this way ?

Yes, I believe it is. I also seem to remember hearing of carb cleaner being
used this way...but both are rather volatile substances. WD40 isn't quite as
volatile, but it is safer.

Given the conditions, I think it is a real possibility.

Worth a check...what can it hurt since you've done just about everything
else by now?

If someone is going to up and say "injectors", would injector cleaner
be a good idea ? Normally I avoid it like the plague.

It's worth a try. Get some injector cleaner and run it through the car. It
might make a huge difference. Here's a little story you might want to take
the time to read. I may have mentioned when you first posted about this car.
But if not, read on:

My dad bought a 1988 Buick LeSabre (3800 V6) for $100. It didn't look bad
and rode well, if it ran long enough to get up to speed. When we started it
had gas in the oil, many cylinders not firing and a service engine light
that wouldn't go out. The previous owner had driven it until it would run
reliably any longer. My dad drove it home, which was an adventure. We didn't
have any better way at the time. No trailer we had was long enough, so it
was followed with a "chase car" in case of problems. A mechanic said "junk
it and cut your losses".

Well...I don't think that way, and neither did anyone else involved. We
started fixing problems...fresh oil and filter, new plugs, plug wires, and a
spark module (as we still didn't have fire on at least one cylinder) were
all installed and they made quite a difference. But something still wasn't
quite right. The engine light was still on, and it didn't run like it
should. It was hard to start as well.

So one night, with only a little gas in the tank, we put in some
Lucas-branded fuel injector cleaner. (Come to think of it, we might have
actually put in more than one bottle, as this seemed serious and we were
desperate.) The mix was way too strong, and we all kind of wondered what
kind of abuse this might inflict on the fuel injection and pumping system.

Now, it was about 11 o'clock at night when we started this car in the
driveway with virtually no muffler left (the entire *top* of the muffler was
gone) and let it rip. It bucked and snorted something awful at first.
Finally, after about ten minutes, the cloud we were making subsided, and the
car evened out nicely. Thankfully, our neighbors are into playing with cars
as well.

The engine light turned off in the strangest way. After the muffler had been
replaced, the light was still on. It went out and never showed up again (nor
did any codes) after we put the final little elbow piece on the back of the
pipe leading off the muffler. Who knew the engine computer could be that
sensitive?

After all that, the car ran fine for several thousand miles until the fuel
pump failed. And that's where we've left it for now. Nobody (myself
included) has had time to do any more than drop the tank off the car, as all
the fuel line was so rusty that it fell apart.

So that's the story. (As for the bit about the Lucas fuel injector
cleaner...it seemed to work, and I've met Mr. Lucas himself. He's a
genuinely nice guy who believes in the stuff he sells. No, I have no
affiliation with the company or its products other than as a satisfied
customer.)

http://www.lucasoil.com/

We are getting to our wit's end here. We have even considered some
skullduggery, like running it on pure ethanol for the test, or even
test driving a car with the same engine and real quick switching the
enigines and returning it. We don't want to do either. When I was a kid
we would consider stealing a car and popping the engine in it, but no
more. I/we don't want to do anything like that. Getting caught is not
the problem, we could get away with it, but we do not WANT to. It is
immoral.

I get the feeling there may be a story here...care to share it? I agree that
isn't right, but it would be pretty funny. And if I'd done that, the new
engine would act the same way!

There is no good reason this thing cannot pass.

I tend to agree with that.

Anyway, don't you just love my posts ?

Sure, it was an interesting read. I well remember the original post, and
might have replied to it.

For example what alot of people don't know is before you buy a high
mileage car there is a test. Take the oil filler cap off and put a
piece of paper over it. It should stick at idle. There should be vacuum
there.

Thanks for the info. That's an interesting idea...I'd never thought of that.

Give me your address and I will at least send you some beer, if
you want it.

No need. Hopefully something I've said might make for a path to the
solution. If it does, so much the better. I'm no automotive expert by any
means, but I'm not afraid of them either...having changed starters,
flexplates/flywheels, fuel tanks, oil and other stuff.

William

 

[mm]

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:45:14 GMT, George Jetson <gjetson1@gmail.com>
wrote:

mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in
news:kef1p29kp85017df3japcq9al0sv5s81rn@4ax.com:


I do feel free not to offer any advice, and I also feel free to offer
it.


My point is that if you're not convinced of my knowledge of proper safety
precautions, then don't offer any troubleshooting advice.

I got your point.

You don't seem to have gotten mine. I'll offer advice based on
whether I want to or not, not based on your particular desires.

Other people read this list. Not just you.


If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM

 

[mm]

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:37:22 GMT, George Jetson <gjetson1@gmail.com>
wrote:

Charlie Morgan <*@*.com> wrote in
news:fag5p25bvc0v4mc4c8f8qp041ctbpf93m6@4ax.com:


If you are not "trying" to be an asshole, then I guess it comes
naturally, and without effort for you.

Really, I'm not. I just think that my safety is solely MY
responsibility, and if I'm comfortable with my level of knowledge in
this area, then anyone who wishes to help me should accept that I am.

I accept that you are compfortable with your level of knowledge in
that area. Now you should accept that I am NOT comfortable. I can't
rely on what you say, for the reasons Charlie explained very well in
his previous post. (most or all of which is quoted here.)

People who have experience
working on televisions have an awareness of how how dangerous they are
for the smug amateur handyman who thinks he knows all the answers when
he doesn't even know what questions to ask. Those who want to make
sure you are not one of "those", are merely being responsible and
showing concern for your welfare. They are trying to help you without
getting you injured or killed. It's not about you or your worthiness.
It's about them being responsible and caring.

You speak as if there are numerous people who are concerned about my
level of expertise in TV repair, and I'm writing replies bashing them
all.

Replace "those" with me and Charlie. He didn't give a number, and
even "those" might have referred just to me, for that matter.

Actually, my original response was to one particular person, mm.
Several people asked about my experience, and I politely answered.
Several people gave me safety advice, which I gladly accepted. A number
of people just accepted that I knew enough to work on TV's and offered
troubleshooting advice. As a matter of fact, YOU were the second person
to give me advice, with no thought as to my qualifications. By the way,
thanks for the advice.

On the other hand, mm flatly called me a liar, and then proceeded to

No, I didn't. I said you hadn't convinced me. And that proof by
assertion wasn't a proof. That doesn't mean you are lying, but it
doesn't convince me that you are right, either.

quiz me with VERY basic TV troubleshooting questions, implying that he
wouldn't answer any questions unless I passed the test. Even though I

Other people had answered and would answer your questions. I couldn't
add to what they had said. So I didn't imply that I would answer your
questions at all. You inferred that I meant that, but I didn't.

was VERY insulted, I just told him that he didn't have to offer any
advice if he didn't think I was qualified to apply it.

And I was annoyed by that. I guess you are trying to be polite with
the phrase "don't have to offer any advice", but I took it literally.
I know I don't HAVE to offer advice. I did it so you wouldn't get
killed. I went to law school for a little while and one of the three
or four things I learned was how easy it is for someone to get killed
while he thinks he knows how to avoid it, that people are negligent
all the time and most of the time they get away with it, but other
times they end up dead. You can learn the same lesson by watching
America's Funniest Home Videos. Well, they actually won't show any
fatalities or serious injuries but they happen just like the
non-serious injuries they do show.

That's when you stepped in. Yes, I realize everyone can read my replies,
but that doesn't mean those replies are directed to everyone. I was
specifically replying to mm, not you, or anyone else. So if I said
something to offend you specifically, I apologize. But if you're
offended by what I said to mm, please keep it to yourself. It's none of
your business.

This is a public list. If you wanted only me to read it, remove
NOPSAM and email me.

I could try to lighten the tone here like you just did with Charlie,
but something about your posts makes me not want to.



If you are inclined to email me
for some reason, remove NOPSAM

 

[me]

snip

I went to law school for a little while


well that's the problem right there!

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[Charlie]

kip wrote:

Filter cap going in the vert deflection circuit.

Many thanks.
Is this likely to be physically located on the yoke circuitry or could
it be anywhere?

KEEP out of the service menu ,fix the fault.

Why does everbody think that going into service menu,s will fix faults ?

Someone she spoke to at the Toshiba service center in New York
apparently did. But (typically) the full details weren't written down.

"Charlie" <abuse02@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1167925784.394917.307070@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
I have a Toshiba TV, model 24AF41 (flat screen) which has recently
started to show interference in the form of horizontal white dotted
lines in the top quarter of the screen. Is this likely to be something
that can be sorted through judicious use of the service menu or is it
more likely to be a symptom of an underlying electronic fault?
thanks in advance for any suggestions....

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

jean easter wrote:

I like this quote:

"These supplies contain internal voltages that can quite easily kill
(several thousands). "

Several thousands; Yeah, Riiight!

A few hundred here, a few hundred there: it all adds up!

(This idea is borrowed from the tale of some report that totalled the
dB heard by someone at one moment: Normal Conversation 60 dB + Vacuum
Cleaner 80 dB = 140 dB !!! Or was it totalled over the day...)

dB doesn't work that way. If both noise sources were +80 dB, the
total would only be +83 dB.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[David Farber]

This 17" Dell monitor, model number CN-0M1609-4633-3AG-2DTL, will
power on when AC is first applied.
In the middle of the screen appears, "Dell Genesis
Display Perfection." Then it disappears after a second. When you press the
power button with no input signal, the Dell self test feature check
illuminates in the bottom left corner of the display. You can see the red,
green, blue, and white bars within the self test box. Then, it starts to
scroll diagonally up to the right for about a second and then the display
turns off. The power light remains on. If you hook it up to a PC, you do
not
get any display. The boards are in good condition and I reflowed the
solder
over many of the components with no improvement. Any ideas what might
be going on here?

"Simoc" <simoc@suomi24.fi> wrote in message
news:1168033267.590015.315300@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...

Bad caps?

--
Top-posting not supported.

The caps tested ok.

Thanks for your reply.

--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA

 

[DaveM]

"David Farber" <farberbear.unspam@aol.com> wrote in message
news:enmdu4$e8m$1@aioe.org...

This 17" Dell monitor, model number CN-0M1609-4633-3AG-2DTL, will power on
when AC is first applied. In the middle of the screen appears, "Dell Genesis
Display Perfection." Then it disappears after a second. When you press the
power button with no input signal, the Dell self test feature check
illuminates in the bottom left corner of the display. You can see the red,
green, blue, and white bars within the self test box. Then, it starts to
scroll diagonally up to the right for about a second and then the display
turns off. The power light remains on. If you hook it up to a PC, you do not
get any display. The boards are in good condition and I reflowed the solder
over many of the components with no improvement. Any ideas what might be
going on here?

Thanks for your reply.
--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA

Did you check the power supply voltage(s)? Low power supply voltage and high
ripple/noise can create a myriad of symptoms.

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the
address)

Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

 

[Jim Yanik]

"David Farber" <farberbear.unspam@aol.com> wrote in
news:enmio3$pso$1@aioe.org:

This 17" Dell monitor, model number CN-0M1609-4633-3AG-2DTL, will
power on when AC is first applied.
In the middle of the screen appears, "Dell Genesis
Display Perfection." Then it disappears after a second. When you
press the power button with no input signal, the Dell self test
feature check illuminates in the bottom left corner of the display.
You can see the red, green, blue, and white bars within the self test
box. Then, it starts to scroll diagonally up to the right for about a
second and then the display turns off. The power light remains on. If
you hook it up to a PC, you do
not
get any display. The boards are in good condition and I reflowed the
solder
over many of the components with no improvement.

Why did you reflow solder? Were there bad joints or intermittents?

Any ideas what might
be going on here?

"Simoc" <simoc@suomi24.fi> wrote in message
news:1168033267.590015.315300@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Bad caps?

--
Top-posting not supported.


The caps tested ok.

Thanks for your reply.

tested how? ESR meter? capacitance meter? ohmmeter?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

[Roger Delkin]

wrote in message news:1167746125.161417.282580
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

If someone is going to up and say "injectors", would injector cleaner
be a good idea ? Normally I avoid it like the plague. When the engineer
designs those injectors there is a paper that says what they are to
inject, and there is one word there ; gasoline. I also shun injector
cleaner because when the injector is really clogged, the cleaner will
never get to it. However there is always an exception. These do fire,
but perhaps flow is decreased in a couple of them.

While reading the description of your problem, I was thinking, "clogged
injector(s)." I had an '88 Pontiac Grand Am, different engine but the same
basic fuel and ignition system. I kept the engine well maintained even
though I didn't care so much for the suspension, body, interior. . .
ANYway, the car ran pretty well until I loaned it to a friend, who
apparently was buying the cheapest gasoline possible. When he brought the
car back to me, it was stuttering, had to start, rough idle, but still had
somewhat reasonable power. I ran a few diagnostics and found that the
injectors were indeed firing (used an oscilloscope on the wires into the
injectors). The problem was solved by removing, cleaning, and reinstalling
the injectors (don't forget new seals). Note that the liquid injector
cleaner may or may not fix your problem; you may have to R&R your injectors
to really get them clean.

I sold the car soon after with 246,000 miles on it, not bad considering I
pretty much always drove it like I stole it. It was shipped down to Mexico
and placed into service as a taxi. Really!

~RD

 

[Beloved Leader]

Ancient_Hacker wrote:

To test for a vacuum leak, just run the engine at idle and spray all
over with anything flammable-- WD-40 is probably the safest.

I am dropping in without knowing much about what is going on here. I
just wish to add this:

It was thought for a while that I might have a leaking intake manifold
gasket on a Y-code 307 V-8 in a 1989 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser. I tried
spraying WD-40 at the seams, to no avail. A trusted technician at the
local Cadillac dealer said the stuff to use for that pupose is
carburetor cleaner. That will ignite, causing the rpm's to bump up as
it is sucked into the cylinders. I did as he suggested, and the rpm's
did increase. It turns out that the manifold gasket was not at fault.
Rather, there was a disintegrated thermal vacuum switch adjacent to the
suspected bad spot in the gasket. Replacing that cost a few tens of
dollars and a few minutes, not several hundred dollars and several
hours. It was quite a relief.

My vote is for carburetor cleaner.

 

[JANA]

Most likely defective caps in the horizontal scan area, or in the blanking
circuits. If you use an ESR meter on all the caps, you will probably find
the defective one. Considering the age of the set, you will most likely find
many caps that are high in their ESR spec. You may end up changing a dozen
or more caps if you go through the complete set.

Most of these thermo type problems are from caps starting to go defective.

To troubleshoot the set with a scope and meter, you will need the service
manuals to be able to determine where you are going, and what you are
looking for. This method would also be very time consuming.

Personaly, with a set that old, I would be out shopping for a new LCD type.

--

JANA
_____


"G.M. Durrence" <durrence-nospam@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ebjvp2tv0kpqodhip3obt7av7jco7rs6fr@4ax.com...
I have a sony kv32xbr55, around 13 years old that still has a good
picture when working. It suddenly developed a problem that occurs
when first turned on. The left 1/4 of the screen is green from top to
bottom. It is a band that has strait edges on the left and right. It
usually clears up after about 30 minutes. Before clearing up, the
green band starts breaking up with horizontal lines all across the
screen. After clearing up it works OK for hours, until turned off.

Can anyone offer a clue about what might be causing this? I got an
estimate of $250 to repair but I would rather put that on a new
flat-panel LCD. I am an experienced electronics technician and handy
with an oscilloscope but I am hoping someone might have experienced
this problem and save me a lot of time.

Thanks for any help.
G.M. Durrence
(to reply remove -nospam from address)

 

[James Sweet]

Meaning they need to warm up before the problem went away? I can't
remember when I've seen a weak cap work better when it was warm (not
saying it doesn't happen). Lots of times I've lucked out with some freeze
spray reviving caps. Guess the OP could wait until the set warmed up and
the pic was ok then use a little freeze rather than removing dozens of
caps and esr'n all of them.

That's how it always is with electrolytics, the ESR drops as the
temperature rises. You can try it with any marginal 'lytic and an ESR
meter, shoot the cap with freeze spray and the impedance will skyrocket.
Heat it with a hair dryer and it will drop.

Rule of thumb is that if something works better as it heats up, look at
the caps. If it works better cold, look at the semiconductors. If it's
erratic, look at solder joints.

 

[David Farber]

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns98AFC7B524E56jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86...

"David Farber" <farberbear.unspam@aol.com> wrote in
news:enmio3$pso$1@aioe.org:


This 17" Dell monitor, model number CN-0M1609-4633-3AG-2DTL, will
power on when AC is first applied.
In the middle of the screen appears, "Dell Genesis
Display Perfection." Then it disappears after a second. When you
press the power button with no input signal, the Dell self test
feature check illuminates in the bottom left corner of the display.
You can see the red, green, blue, and white bars within the self test
box. Then, it starts to scroll diagonally up to the right for about a
second and then the display turns off. The power light remains on. If
you hook it up to a PC, you do
not
get any display. The boards are in good condition and I reflowed the
solder
over many of the components with no improvement.

Why did you reflow solder? Were there bad joints or intermittents?

Any ideas what might
be going on here?

"Simoc" <simoc@suomi24.fi> wrote in message
news:1168033267.590015.315300@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Bad caps?

--
Top-posting not supported.


The caps tested ok.

Thanks for your reply.


tested how? ESR meter? capacitance meter? ohmmeter?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

ESR with my Bob Parker, ESR meter and an ohmeter for shorts.

Thanks for your reply.

--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA

 

[David Farber]

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns98AFC7B524E56jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86...

"David Farber" <farberbear.unspam@aol.com> wrote in
news:enmio3$pso$1@aioe.org:


This 17" Dell monitor, model number CN-0M1609-4633-3AG-2DTL, will
power on when AC is first applied.
In the middle of the screen appears, "Dell Genesis
Display Perfection." Then it disappears after a second. When you
press the power button with no input signal, the Dell self test
feature check illuminates in the bottom left corner of the display.
You can see the red, green, blue, and white bars within the self test
box. Then, it starts to scroll diagonally up to the right for about a
second and then the display turns off. The power light remains on. If
you hook it up to a PC, you do
not
get any display. The boards are in good condition and I reflowed the
solder
over many of the components with no improvement.

Why did you reflow solder? Were there bad joints or intermittents?

Any ideas what might
be going on here?

"Simoc" <simoc@suomi24.fi> wrote in message
news:1168033267.590015.315300@51g2000cwl.googlegroups.com...
Bad caps?

--
Top-posting not supported.


The caps tested ok.

Thanks for your reply.


tested how? ESR meter? capacitance meter? ohmmeter?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

ESR with my Bob Parker, ESR meter and an ohmeter for shorts.

Thanks for your reply.

--
David Farber
David Farber's Service Center
L.A., CA

 

[Andy Cuffe]

On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 11:53:31 -0500, G.M. Durrence
<durrence-nospam@comcast.net> wrote:

I have a sony kv32xbr55, around 13 years old that still has a good
picture when working. It suddenly developed a problem that occurs
when first turned on. The left 1/4 of the screen is green from top to
bottom. It is a band that has strait edges on the left and right. It
usually clears up after about 30 minutes. Before clearing up, the
green band starts breaking up with horizontal lines all across the
screen. After clearing up it works OK for hours, until turned off.

Can anyone offer a clue about what might be causing this? I got an
estimate of $250 to repair but I would rather put that on a new
flat-panel LCD. I am an experienced electronics technician and handy
with an oscilloscope but I am hoping someone might have experienced
this problem and save me a lot of time.

Thanks for any help.
G.M. Durrence
(to reply remove -nospam from address)

If it gradually fades back to normal from left to right, then the most
likely cause is a bad capacitor near the flyback. It will probably be
a high voltage one (160v-300v). When electrolytics start to fail,
they get better as they warm up.
Andy Cuffe

acuffe@gmail.com