Today's Lead Free Crap Solder Stories ...

[Arfa Daily]

<snip>

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds to
make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into the
surrounding area.

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us all--say
they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious material, keep
anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on others
here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about lead-free solder:
it's clearly a pain in the ass.

***********************************************************************************

But to listen to you and others here go on about it, you'd think these
rules were simply capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't
know what the hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.
****************************************************************************************

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.

Actually, I would say that pretty much sums up *exactly* what we have here.
The conventional wisdom that is thrust upon the public in regard of the
dangers of lead solder and lead glass in landfill, is that it gets washed
out by rain water into the water table below. Lead in metallic form is not
soluble in water, and the tin / lead compound of solder, is chemically very
stable, and no more susceptible to breakdown by water. Lead does not leach
out of glass at all, unless it is pulverised into an extremely fine powder.

For decades, water was supplied to houses via lead pipes. If the lead
dissolved that easily, they would have needed continuous replacement.
Rainwater sealing on roofs is traditionally done with lead sheeting. This is
subject to continuous bombardment by the rain, including water containing
mixes of often quite noxious airborne pollutants. Many buildings hundreds of
years old, still have their original lead roof.

I don't doubt that if you try hard enough, you can show lead being gotten
out of solder into the environment. I too have no desire to live in an
environment full of lead, and initiatives like removing it from petrol, and
paints, where it could - and did - readily get into the atmosphere, were
very much the right ones, but unfortunately, the word "lead" became rapidly
synonomous with "bad" and "pollutant" such that a religious hysteria became
attached to the banning of any and all items containing it. Banning it's use
in solder and electronic equipment was a needless over-reaction that has
caused endless knock-on effects that were never considered by the zealots
who made the proposals. Not the least of these is the increased energy
budget to work with the stuff (you need more heat).

Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
directive ...

If you research the use of lead a bit more, you will find that over 80% of
the world's production goes to the manufacture of automotive batteries.
There was no technology sufficiently developed to replace this robust
workhorse, which forced some proper thinking about how to deal with them at
their end of life. Now, just about 100% of car batteries are recycled, and
their lead recovered.



Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf89be2$0$2352$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

On 5/22/2010 7:44 PM hr(bob) hofmann@att.net spake thus:

On May 22, 8:05 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.

But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.

In my 'hood, most of the TVs and monitors that get put out on the street
end up broken. CRT smashed to pieces. The city eventually comes along and
picks them up and takes them to the dump. It's a lot easier for lead to
leach out of broken pieces of glass.

No, actually it isn't. You are a victim of the hysterical nonsense that is
put about by the anti-lead-in-everything brigade ...

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Adrian Tuddenham" <adrian@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:1jixt4c.17yzawmw8pvsN%adrian@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid...

David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:


[...]

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of
the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.

As far as I am aware, there was no proof offered that lead had been
leaching out of electronic solder in land-fill when the politicians came
to legislate on banning lead from solder. In the U.K. there were no
scientists or engineers on the committee that took that decision; and
the "self-evident fact" that lead was causing a problem was accepted
without question. I have yet to hear of any meaningful research which
backs up that decision.

There is little doubt, from the evidence coming in from all across the
electronics industry, that lead-free solder is decreasing the
reliability of equipment and increasing the cost of manufacture and the
amount of waste (containing other, more soluble, toxic materials) going
into landfill. The overall environmental effect of the anti-lead
legislation is the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

Banning automated assembly of consumer electronics would be a much more
environmentally-friendly move as it would reduce production, increase
the price and ecourage consumers to hang on to their existing kit. It
might also encourage the manufacturers to make things in a way which
could be repaired. Anyone want to campaign for that?


There is plenty of "cocksure certainty" on both sides of the argument.
That wouldn't matter if it was just an argument, but unfounded prejudice
should not be allowed to dictate legislation.



--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~

A succinct and nicely measured evaluation of the situation, Adrian

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

For decades, water was supplied to houses via lead pipes.
If the lead dissolved that easily, they would have needed
continuous replacement. Rainwater sealing on roofs is
traditionally done with lead sheeting. This is subject to
continuous bombardment by the rain, including water
containing mixes of often quite noxious airborne pollutants.
Many buildings hundreds of years old, still have their original
lead roof.

The Romans used lead pipes to carry water, and some people believe this
contributed to "the decline and fall". The Romans also used lead acetate to
sweeten their wine, which might also have poisoned them.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

A succinct and nicely measured evaluation of the
situation, Adrian.

One of the reasons tetraethyl lead was removed from gasoline, and lead oxide
from paint, was that there was no question it was getting into people's
systems. This, as far as I know, has not been show for lead from landfills.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:

Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
directive ...

I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
programs were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots
of electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
into which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old
cell phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.

And this can't be blamed entirely on the great unwashed masses: if
things were set up fairly, then manufacturers would be forced to take
responsibility for their "E-waste" and offer incentives for people to
not throw stuff in the trash.

If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:

Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
directive ...

I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
programs were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots
of electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
into which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old
cell phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.

If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.

Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
overseas places)? How is this actually done?


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Sergey Kubushyn wrote:

Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

"hr(bob) hofmann@att.net" wrote:

On May 22, 8:05 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:





"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBil...@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The joint
looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had not whetted
the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take two hours to go
bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap end
up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other things
you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything else there
eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.

But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.


The EPA had to grind them to a fine dust, then use a strong acid to
remove some lead. Then they claimed that CRTs had 27 pounds of lead.

Wow, that must've been a huge CRT... Or the rest of the CRT must've been
made of negative-weight materials...

Actually they said, 'Every TV has 27 pounds of lead'. Someone owes
me at least a half ton, because I have a lot of 4" TVs and monitors that
weigh less than 2 ponds, and the CRT is only a few ounces.

As of "And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much." -- where do you think that lead came from in the first place? Did
somebody bring it from the Moon?

Typical Bureaucratic crap. They have to occasionally do something
even though it's usually wrong.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:

Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive that
was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled, and
the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of leaded
solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a problem that
did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it did, had a rather
better solution already in hand, with the impending introduction of the WEEE
directive ...

I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
programs were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots
of electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
into which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old
cell phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.

Recycling is easy if you impose a fee on new equipment, and only
refund it when old equipment is turned in.

If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.

Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
overseas places)? How is this actually done?

They can, and do grind up old PC boards. Scrap fiberglass PC boards
also yield reusable fiber that can be used to make small boat hulls,
bathtubs and hot tubs.

The boards are ground to small pieces, then soaked in hot acid to
remove all the metals. The fiberglass is mechanically separated from
the plastic & ceramic scrap. The metals are recovered from the acid,
and refined like raw ore. A Japanese company holds the early patents


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind
up being consumed by humans or animals. It's use in gasoline,
paint, dyes, ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.
On the other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is
asinine.

The anti-lead argument is that too much electronic equipment is dumped in
landfills, where acidic rainwater slowly dissolves the lead and it winds up
in the water supply. This is plausible, but I've yet to see any proof.

My argument has long been that the only dangerous substances are those that
actually get into the environment.

Old landfills are being mined for recyclables in some places.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/23/2010 3:03 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
overseas places)? How is this actually done?

They can, and do grind up old PC boards. Scrap fiberglass PC boards
also yield reusable fiber that can be used to make small boat hulls,
bathtubs and hot tubs.

The boards are ground to small pieces, then soaked in hot acid to
remove all the metals. The fiberglass is mechanically separated from
the plastic & ceramic scrap. The metals are recovered from the acid,
and refined like raw ore. A Japanese company holds the early patents

Maybe we're not so far apart on this issue after all. The goal shouldn't
be to just mindlessly ban things, but to set up a system to keep
dangerous and toxic things from hurting us. As is already done with a
lot of other materials. So if a reliable and widely-used recycling
system can be set up, that would solve the problem nicely.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[Jim Yanik]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in
news:htbsee$fkm$1@news.eternal-september.org:

For decades, water was supplied to houses via lead pipes.
If the lead dissolved that easily, they would have needed
continuous replacement. Rainwater sealing on roofs is
traditionally done with lead sheeting. This is subject to
continuous bombardment by the rain, including water
containing mixes of often quite noxious airborne pollutants.
Many buildings hundreds of years old, still have their original
lead roof.

The Romans used lead pipes to carry water, and some people believe
this contributed to "the decline and fall". The Romans also used lead
acetate to sweeten their wine, which might also have poisoned them.

of course running water,possibly acidic,could dissolve lead into the water.
But landfills don't have running water,the buried refuse should not even be
immersed in water,and other materials could neutralize or diminish any
acidity.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

 

[William Sommerwerck]

The Romans used lead pipes to carry water, and some
people believe this contributed to "the decline and fall".
The Romans also used lead acetate to sweeten their
wine, which might also have poisoned them.

of course running water,possibly acidic,could dissolve lead
into the water. But landfills don't have running water...

It's called "rain".

 

[Arfa Daily]

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf987fe$0$2362$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:

Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive
that was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled,
and the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of
leaded solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a
problem that did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it
did, had a rather better solution already in hand, with the impending
introduction of the WEEE directive ...

I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those programs
were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots of
electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster into
which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old cell
phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.

If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it might
be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.

You may not have any kind of mandated regulations in your part of the world,
but we do over here in the UK and the rest of Europe. Implementation is a
little patchy so far, and some countries are acting more on the WEEE
directive than others, but the ultimate goal is to make all manufacturers
responsible for the collection of their goods at end of life, and to then
handle either the safe disposal or dismantling and recycling of them.
Electronic recycling companies are springing up all over the UK, and
handling this work under contract. All municipal garbage disposal sites are
now charged with recycling the items that the public brings to them, and
have bins divided by the type of garbage that they are for. There is always
one now for electronic equipment.

Instead of the ludicrous scheme of replacing leaded solder with a less than
satisfactory alternative, a bit of joined up thinking, divorced from the
"remove lead from everything" hysteria, could have resulted in a proper
recycling scheme being introduced much quicker, and without all of the short
and long term problems that the whole RoHS mess has produced for
manufacturers and service organisations alike.

They managed it for automotive batteries without any fuss, because there
*was* no alternative that was remotely suitable for the job. As I said
before, these are now silently and unobtrusively spirited away, and 100%
recycled.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf9a7d0$0$2360$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

On 5/23/2010 3:03 PM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Forgot to add: Not to mention the energy and resource-recovery savings
that could be realized by recycling. But this raises questions: how
possible is it to recover materials from recycled electronics? It seems
it might be worthwhile, especially if some of the more expensive and
rare materials (like silver, platinum, tantalum, etc.) could be
recovered. But how easy is this to do in the real world? Can you grind
up old circuit boards and then try to extract stuff from the bits and
pieces? Use strong chemical brews to extract metals? Does this require
pulling components off by hand (cost-prohibitive except in impoverished
overseas places)? How is this actually done?

They can, and do grind up old PC boards. Scrap fiberglass PC boards
also yield reusable fiber that can be used to make small boat hulls,
bathtubs and hot tubs.

The boards are ground to small pieces, then soaked in hot acid to
remove all the metals. The fiberglass is mechanically separated from
the plastic & ceramic scrap. The metals are recovered from the acid,
and refined like raw ore. A Japanese company holds the early patents

Maybe we're not so far apart on this issue after all. The goal shouldn't
be to just mindlessly ban things, but to set up a system to keep dangerous
and toxic things from hurting us. As is already done with a lot of other
materials. So if a reliable and widely-used recycling system can be set
up, that would solve the problem nicely.

Yes indeedy. You're beginning to see the bigger (and better) picture, now
that you're starting to stop and think about the faulty eco-hysteria that
brought about the change in the first place ...

Arfa

 

[N_Cook]

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:gUjKn.14885$ge.3039@newsfe05.ams2...

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf987fe$0$2362$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:

Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive
that was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going
to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled,
and the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of
leaded solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a
problem that did not actually exist in the first place, and even if it
did, had a rather better solution already in hand, with the impending
introduction of the WEEE directive ...

I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
programs
were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots of
electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
into
which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old cell
phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.

If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it
might
be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.



You may not have any kind of mandated regulations in your part of the
world,
but we do over here in the UK and the rest of Europe. Implementation is a
little patchy so far, and some countries are acting more on the WEEE
directive than others, but the ultimate goal is to make all manufacturers
responsible for the collection of their goods at end of life, and to then
handle either the safe disposal or dismantling and recycling of them.
Electronic recycling companies are springing up all over the UK, and
handling this work under contract. All municipal garbage disposal sites
are
now charged with recycling the items that the public brings to them, and
have bins divided by the type of garbage that they are for. There is
always
one now for electronic equipment.

Instead of the ludicrous scheme of replacing leaded solder with a less
than
satisfactory alternative, a bit of joined up thinking, divorced from the
"remove lead from everything" hysteria, could have resulted in a proper
recycling scheme being introduced much quicker, and without all of the
short
and long term problems that the whole RoHS mess has produced for
manufacturers and service organisations alike.

They managed it for automotive batteries without any fuss, because there
*was* no alternative that was remotely suitable for the job. As I said
before, these are now silently and unobtrusively spirited away, and 100%
recycled.

Arfa

So what exactly can be recycled from electronic scrap, ie the circuit boards
not plastic casing and metal chassis. Gold from edge connectors if 1970s
boards but not anything since has been economic to process legitimately in
the UK. The rest is mixed plastic and glass fibre and processed sand. As 50
percent of shipping containers leave the UK empty (recent UK BBC4 doc on
"boxes"), the shipping fees for sending scrap boards to be "processed" in
India costs next to nothing , little more than admin costs.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:htda0o$dtd$1@news.eternal-september.org...

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
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"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
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On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:

On 5/23/2010 9:24 AM Arfa Daily spake thus:

Aside from this, there is no reason at all, given the WEEE directive
that was introduced, that effectively prevents electronic items going
to
landfill, that electronic equipment should not be properly recycled,
and the solder, and hence its lead content, recovered. The banning of
leaded solder and its replacement with lead-free, was a solution to a
problem that did not actually exist in the first place, and even if
it
did, had a rather better solution already in hand, with the impending
introduction of the WEEE directive ...

I would feel very differently about this whole matter if there were
proper recycling programs in place for "E-waste", *and* if those
programs
were actually used by the public. As it is, I see lots and lots of
electronics going into the dumpster--literally, meaning the dumpster
into
which I put my trash, which regularly gets contributions of old cell
phones, wireless routers, PC cards, etc., etc.

If that were the case, that we had functioning recycling programs that
captured something like 80-90% of this waste stream, then maybe it
might
be a good idea to go back to good old lead solder.



You may not have any kind of mandated regulations in your part of the
world,
but we do over here in the UK and the rest of Europe. Implementation is a
little patchy so far, and some countries are acting more on the WEEE
directive than others, but the ultimate goal is to make all manufacturers
responsible for the collection of their goods at end of life, and to then
handle either the safe disposal or dismantling and recycling of them.
Electronic recycling companies are springing up all over the UK, and
handling this work under contract. All municipal garbage disposal sites
are
now charged with recycling the items that the public brings to them, and
have bins divided by the type of garbage that they are for. There is
always
one now for electronic equipment.

Instead of the ludicrous scheme of replacing leaded solder with a less
than
satisfactory alternative, a bit of joined up thinking, divorced from the
"remove lead from everything" hysteria, could have resulted in a proper
recycling scheme being introduced much quicker, and without all of the
short
and long term problems that the whole RoHS mess has produced for
manufacturers and service organisations alike.

They managed it for automotive batteries without any fuss, because there
*was* no alternative that was remotely suitable for the job. As I said
before, these are now silently and unobtrusively spirited away, and 100%
recycled.

Arfa



So what exactly can be recycled from electronic scrap, ie the circuit
boards
not plastic casing and metal chassis. Gold from edge connectors if 1970s
boards but not anything since has been economic to process legitimately in
the UK. The rest is mixed plastic and glass fibre and processed sand. As
50
percent of shipping containers leave the UK empty (recent UK BBC4 doc on
"boxes"), the shipping fees for sending scrap boards to be "processed" in
India costs next to nothing , little more than admin costs.

Well, if nothing else, I'm sure that the bulk of the solder could be fairly
easily removed, but as someone else commented - Michael I think it was -
boards *are* ground up, and the various materials separated and recovered,
including the fibreglass itself, which is then used for boat hulls and bath
tubs, I think he said. Perhaps Michael knows of some reference on the 'net
to this ??

Arfa

 

[N_Cook]

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
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"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
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Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
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"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf987fe$0$2362$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
On 5/23/2010 12:52 PM David Nebenzahl spake thus:


Well, if nothing else, I'm sure that the bulk of the solder could be
fairly
easily removed, but as someone else commented - Michael I think it was -
boards *are* ground up, and the various materials separated and recovered,
including the fibreglass itself, which is then used for boat hulls and
bath
tubs, I think he said. Perhaps Michael knows of some reference on the 'net
to this ??

Arfa

You cannot recover the solder by a process like mechanically stripping
plastic insulation off copper wire , legal in the UK if plastic is recycled,
burning off illegal.
So container loads of it ends up in India to be set fire to and the glass
matting ends up in their dumps and the water courses etc as no economic
value even in India, as far too contaminated and messy

 

[Sergey Kubushyn]

Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind
up being consumed by humans or animals. It's use in gasoline,
paint, dyes, ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.
On the other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is
asinine.

The anti-lead argument is that too much electronic equipment is dumped in
landfills, where acidic rainwater slowly dissolves the lead and it winds up
in the water supply. This is plausible, but I've yet to see any proof.

My argument has long been that the only dangerous substances are those that
actually get into the environment.


Old landfills are being mined for recyclables in some places.

You guys should've seen our shooting range... One 7.62mm bullet probably
has more lead than an average CD player or whatever had in it when it was
not lead-free. I usually spend at least 200 rounds every time I visit the
range. And I'm not the only one shooting there

There are some guys that come something like twice a year to mine for that
lead...

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[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/24/2010 2:35 AM N_Cook spake thus:

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:CwrKn.672$c74.369@newsfe04.ams2...

Well, if nothing else, I'm sure that the bulk of the solder could
be fairly easily removed, but as someone else commented - Michael I
think it was - boards *are* ground up, and the various materials
separated and recovered, including the fibreglass itself, which is
then used for boat hulls and bath tubs, I think he said. Perhaps
Michael knows of some reference on the 'net to this ??

You cannot recover the solder by a process like mechanically
stripping plastic insulation off copper wire , legal in the UK if
plastic is recycled, burning off illegal. So container loads of it
ends up in India to be set fire to and the glass matting ends up in
their dumps and the water courses etc as no economic value even in
India, as far too contaminated and messy

You're not reading, or not paying attention: Michael Terrell explained
how materials are recovered from ground-up circuit boards, and it
doesn't involve any burning like you speculated. Not that this isn't
done in places like India, but that's not the way it's *supposed* to be
done.

I can't vouch for the veracity of what Terrell wrote, just reporting
what he said. I'd like some references too, but for now we have to take
him at his word. Which is that the materials in circuit boards *are*
recoverable using presumably environmentally-safe methods.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)