Today's Lead Free Crap Solder Stories ...

[N_Cook]

Anyone know if vibration can induce metallic tin to convert to tin pest
without having to cross the 13 degree C threshold. Or perhaps accelerate its
conversion if temp does at some point drop below 13 deg C.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Smitty Two" <prestwhich@earthlink.net> wrote in message
newsrestwhich-8790EA.09334621052010@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com...

In article <mdlJn.18479$ea4.8777@newsfe29.ams2>,
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

I don't doubt your experiences, and of course this isn't your first rant
about lead-free. I think the early lead-free formulas were inherently
bad, but I think some of the new ones are pretty damn good. I don't mind
working with them at all, and find the "solderability" to be on a par
with lead.

I still use a lot of lead, but some of my customers (who sell to Europe)
specify lead-free. We use Sn96.5Ag3Cu0.5 and have been well-satisfied
with it. I tend to agree with Wild Bill, that manufacturing has been
turned over to the bean-counters, and that the quality issues you're
seeing with consumer products may be due more to shitty practices than
to the abandonment of lead.

But actually Smitty, it amounts to the same thing, doesn't it ? The cost of
consumer electronic equipment is so low, as has been dictated by the market,
that some shitty practices have to prevail to meet those price points. The
thing is that with leaded solder, those shitty practices that were
solder-related, could be got away with. With lead-free, they can't, so we
are now seeing equipment which manages to conform to the price constraints,
but can't make it any more, in the reliability stakes.

As to the current formulations being better than earlier ones, I'm not sure
that there is actually any difference. Mixes with additional metals to try
to improve the 'workability' of the stuff have been there right from the
start. It's just that they were too expensive to be practical. I guess for
manufacturing quantities, this is no longer the case, and this has
undoubtedly led to an improvement in joint integrity. For sure, lead-free
joints now at least look a bit better than they did, but I am still seeing
many more bad joints on in-warranty, or just out of warranty items, than I
ever did when leaded solder prevailed.

No matter how it's dressed up, the stuff just isn't as good for the job *all
round* as leaded solder was. It has replaced a mature and reliable
technology that had evolved into a process as near perfect as it could be,
with one that at best is a 'next best thing' compromise, and to what benefit
? None that actually stands up to scrutiny in the real world. It was a
politically green agenda fuelled by the hysterical rubbish that gets spouted
about both the real and imagined dangers of lead in the environment, that
lead to the situation that we now have.

Arfa

 

[Smitty Two]

In article <pfUJn.11$Qg5.9@newsfe06.ams2>,
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

But actually Smitty, it amounts to the same thing, doesn't it ? The cost of
consumer electronic equipment is so low, as has been dictated by the market,
that some shitty practices have to prevail to meet those price points. The
thing is that with leaded solder, those shitty practices that were
solder-related, could be got away with. With lead-free, they can't, so we
are now seeing equipment which manages to conform to the price constraints,
but can't make it any more, in the reliability stakes.

I'm not in a position to disagree with you on that score. Safety and
reliability are founded on the principle of "more than one fault" being
needed to create failure, and you may well be right that lead was more
forgiving of shoddy manufacturing processes.

Fortunately, with the exception of some high-end audio, my company
doesn't make any consumer products. Our industrial customers expect
quality first, timely delivery second, and price third. They may squeak
about cost from time to time, but it's never a driving force.

Considering the price of many consumer electronic gadgets, I find it
astonishing that manufacturers can afford to put it in a box and ship it
from China, let alone manufacture it.

 

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

The first is the Warrior amp that I posted on here about, looking for
schematics. None were found, and as expected, the importer ignored my pleas,
so I decided I would spend a half hour on it 'blind'.

It turned out to not be too difficult to get the main PCB out, complete with
heatsinks and back panel. The wiring was long enough to allow the board to
be turned over, without having to disconnect everything. The fault was that
one of the two identical output stages was behaving as a pretty good half
wave rectifier, but only with a load connected. With no load, an applied
sine wave was perfectly symmetrical at the output terminals, and of similar
size to the good channel. With a load connected, the negative excursions
disappeared almost totally. Nothing was burning, and the the output protect
didn't even fire until the wick was turned well up, which led me to believe
that the problem may well be back in the driver stages or earlier. As there
are two identical amps, I figured that I would start with a few comparitive
resistance checks between channels. Quickly, I found that at the base pin of
one of the driver transistors, I had a reading of 3k or so on the good
channel, but open circuit at the same point on the bad channel. I followed
the print back and took another reading and Lo! - 3k ...

So I went back to the transistor leg - open, but at the joint, 3k. I tell
you, I examined that joint with the strongest light and magnifier that I
have, but you could not see a problem with it. However, as soon as it was
resoldered, 3k on the leg as well, and the amp then worked normally. This is
the problem with lead free. You can no longer spot bad joints by eye, and
they don't behave like conventional bad joints any more.

The second one was a Vox combo. This one was reported as "goes off after a
while - tap top to get it back". It actually ran for about 2 hours, during
which time I thrashed the output stage so hard you couldn't touch the
heatsink, and periodically knocked seven bells out of it with the butt end
of a large philips screwdy. At no time did it show any signs of
intermittency. I was actually on the phone to the store that it came to me
from, to check if they knew the owner, and whether he was savvy, or a
numpty, when it went off. Just like that. No provocation. You could then
lightly tap the top of the chassis just about anywhere, and it would come
and go at will. So easy was it to make it do it, you would have thought that
the joint causing it would have been really easily spotted. I twisted and
wiggled everything I could, but nothing made it do it, but still the
lightest tap, and there it went.

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that did no
good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the board. It was a
component that I had previously twisted. This time I pulled it, and one leg
just came right out of the board. The joint looked perfectly normal - for
lead-free that is - but it had not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the
hell could that take two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before
that time, and then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so
tap sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid ...

Arfa

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being

consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

PlainBill

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBill47@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The
joint looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had
not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take
two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap
end up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other
things you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything
else there eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[Smitty Two]

In article <4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBill47@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The
joint looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had
not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take
two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap
end up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other
things you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything
else there eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

AIUI, 99.9% of the lead in consumer electronics was in CRTs. Isn't there
something like a couple of pounds of the stuff in there? Now that we've
switched to LCDs, that problem has gone away. The amount of lead in a
circuit board is practically negligible.

 

[Jim Yanik]

Smitty Two <prestwhich@earthlink.net> wrote in newsrestwhich-
6B93A1.15420722052010@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com:

In article <4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBill47@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The
joint looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had
not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take
two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap
end up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other
things you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything
else there eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

AIUI, 99.9% of the lead in consumer electronics was in CRTs. Isn't there
something like a couple of pounds of the stuff in there? Now that we've
switched to LCDs, that problem has gone away. The amount of lead in a
circuit board is practically negligible.

Yes,and how much actually leaches out from PCBs?
I suspect lead tire-balance weights contribute far more lead to the
environment.(they -have- switched to no-lead alloys)
I find them all the time when I'm out on my bicycle.
I pick them up and melt them into ingots.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/22/2010 4:22 PM Jim Yanik spake thus:

Smitty Two <prestwhich@earthlink.net> wrote in newsrestwhich-
6B93A1.15420722052010@newsfarm.iad.highwinds-media.com:

In article <4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBill47@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The
joint looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had
not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take
two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap
end up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other
things you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything
else there eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

AIUI, 99.9% of the lead in consumer electronics was in CRTs. Isn't there
something like a couple of pounds of the stuff in there? Now that we've
switched to LCDs, that problem has gone away. The amount of lead in a
circuit board is practically negligible.

Yes,and how much actually leaches out from PCBs?

Lots. Enough to do real damage. Hence the regulations.

I suspect lead tire-balance weights contribute far more lead to the
environment.(they -have- switched to no-lead alloys)
I find them all the time when I'm out on my bicycle.
I pick them up and melt them into ingots.

Hey, I do that too! It's almost a reflex with me. Someday someone's
gonna see me stuffing a big ol' wheel weight into my pocket and go
"WTF?????".

I've actually taken a lot of lead out of the environment this way.
Pounds and pounds of it.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/22/2010 3:42 PM Smitty Two spake thus:

In article <4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com>,
David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBill47@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The
joint looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had
not whetted the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take
two hours to go bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap
end up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other
things you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything
else there eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

AIUI, 99.9% of the lead in consumer electronics was in CRTs. Isn't there
something like a couple of pounds of the stuff in there? Now that we've
switched to LCDs, that problem has gone away. The amount of lead in a
circuit board is practically negligible.

You could have said the same thing about leaded gasoline way back when.
The amount of lead in a tankful of tetraethyl lead gasoline is
practically negligible. But you know what? it all adds up. That's why it
was banned.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[Arfa Daily]

<snip>

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

PlainBill

Yes, I would absolutely agree with those sentiments.

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBill47@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The joint
looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had not whetted
the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take two hours to go
bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap end
up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other things
you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything else there
eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

Arfa

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBill47@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The joint
looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had not whetted
the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take two hours to go
bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap end
up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other things
you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything else there
eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[Wild_Bill]

Ecoholics.

The feeling of power must feel great.

What's taking place today would likely not have needed to happen if anyone
had been willing to invest in proper technologies for recycling.

During times of prosperity (or non-crisis), the majority of humans ignore
that their wasteful habits will have consequences.

Would cost effective reclamation of metals from circuit boards been so
difficult or costly to just ignore it?
Yep, it costs too much today to do anything about it.

I'm sure there were many earlier believers in recycling before the 1960s,
but it was easier to ignore the value of recycling. Even now the half-assed
measures to collect and recycle are very inefficient.

Was legislation needed to get folks to separate cans from household waste?
Some places have penalties/fines for finding recycleable materials in a
household's trash cans.. yep, trashcan cops, probably with a good salary and
benefits.
Maybe it's time that commercial and industrial dumpsters were
inspected/monitored.

Waste has been a major issue for a very long time, but no one has wanted to
invest in technologies to efficiently recycle reuseable materials.
Eeeewww, it's garbage.

So it seems that were faced with polluting the small amounts of clean water
left on the planet. But water can be treated.. astronauts drink their own
urine, after all.
But then, they're not eating nicad batteries or other deadly chemicals.

We've all seen what takes place for control over oil, just wait and see the
huge shitstorm when the control of clean water becomes a major issue (it's
already started).

Landfill liners are secure, the water is clean, and a few other claims that
are up the top of the list since one was taken off; there's no link between
tobacco and cancer.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf87dd4$0$2359$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds to
make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into the
surrounding area.

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us all--say
they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious material, keep
anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on others
here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about lead-free solder:
it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you and others here go on
about it, you'd think these rules were simply capricious actions of some
pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the hell they're talking about. I
think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/22/2010 7:44 PM hr(bob) hofmann@att.net spake thus:

On May 22, 8:05 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.

But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.

In my 'hood, most of the TVs and monitors that get put out on the street
end up broken. CRT smashed to pieces. The city eventually comes along
and picks them up and takes them to the dump. It's a lot easier for lead
to leach out of broken pieces of glass.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"hr(bob) hofmann@att.net" wrote:

On May 22, 8:05 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:





"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBil...@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The joint
looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had not whetted
the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take two hours to go
bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap end
up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other things
you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything else there
eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.

The EPA had to grind them to a fine dust, then use a strong acid to
remove some lead. Then they claimed that CRTs had 27 pounds of lead.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[hr(bob) hofmann@att.net]

On May 22, 8:05 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:





"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBil...@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The joint
looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had not whetted
the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take two hours to go
bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.  On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap end
up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other things
you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything else there
eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.

 

[Adrian Tuddenham]

David Nebenzahl <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:

[...]

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.

As far as I am aware, there was no proof offered that lead had been
leaching out of electronic solder in land-fill when the politicians came
to legislate on banning lead from solder. In the U.K. there were no
scientists or engineers on the committee that took that decision; and
the "self-evident fact" that lead was causing a problem was accepted
without question. I have yet to hear of any meaningful research which
backs up that decision.

There is little doubt, from the evidence coming in from all across the
electronics industry, that lead-free solder is decreasing the
reliability of equipment and increasing the cost of manufacture and the
amount of waste (containing other, more soluble, toxic materials) going
into landfill. The overall environmental effect of the anti-lead
legislation is the opposite of what we are trying to achieve.

Banning automated assembly of consumer electronics would be a much more
environmentally-friendly move as it would reduce production, increase
the price and ecourage consumers to hang on to their existing kit. It
might also encourage the manufacturers to make things in a way which
could be repaired. Anyone want to campaign for that?


There is plenty of "cocksure certainty" on both sides of the argument.
That wouldn't matter if it was just an argument, but unfounded prejudice
should not be allowed to dictate legislation.



--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

 

[Sergey Kubushyn]

Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

"hr(bob) hofmann@att.net" wrote:

On May 22, 8:05 pm, David Nebenzahl <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote:
On 5/22/2010 5:42 PM Arfa Daily spake thus:





"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4bf8595c$0$2375$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
On 5/22/2010 12:23 PM PlainBil...@yahoo.com spake thus:

On Fri, 21 May 2010 02:20:17 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

[...]

Eventually, after a frustrating session of blanket resoldering that
did no good at all, I came to a power resistor standing up off the
board. It was a component that I had previously twisted. This time
I pulled it, and one leg just came right out of the board. The joint
looked perfectly normal - for lead-free that is - but it had not whetted
the resistor leg at all. How the hell could that take two hours to go
bad, not be responsive at all before that time, and
then when it has gone bad, not respond to twisting, but be so tap
sensitive that you could make it come and go with a feather? I HATE
lead-free with a passion.

If it ever finds its way into avionics, be afraid, be VERY afraid
...

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind up being
consumed by humans or animals.. It's use in gasoline, paint, dyes,
ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible. On the
other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is asinine.

Is it really? Think about it: where does the majority of all that crap end
up?

Hint: it sure as hell ain't in approved, safely managed reclamation or
recycling facilities. You know what I'm talking about. So it's the same
with lead-containing consumer electronics as it is with those other things
you mentioned (well, not the same as gasoline, but everything else there
eventually ends up in landfills, waterways, etc.).

Even if it does end up in landfill, how does the lead get back out of the
components and solder, into the environment. Hint, it doesn't ...

How the hell can you say that with such cocksure certainty?

Look; we *know* that all kinds of things can leach out of landfills.
There's all kinds of shit in there besides PC boards, enough compounds
to make a chemical brew capable of leaching lead (and other metals) into
the surrounding area.

Yeah, sure: "they"--you know, the little elves that watch over us
all--say they make sure to seal the landfill, cap it with impervious
material, keep anything from leaching out. Do you believe them? I sure
don't.

I think this is just an irresponsible attitude on your part and on
others here. I *totally* agree with your other complaints about
lead-free solder: it's clearly a pain in the ass. But to listen to you
and others here go on about it, you'd think these rules were simply
capricious actions of some pinheaded Eurocrats who don't know what the
hell they're talking about. I think you're wrong about that.

And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But does the lead in the glass of crt's leach out, I don't think so.


The EPA had to grind them to a fine dust, then use a strong acid to
remove some lead. Then they claimed that CRTs had 27 pounds of lead.

Wow, that must've been a huge CRT... Or the rest of the CRT must've been
made of negative-weight materials...

As of "And I don't want to live in an environment full of lead, thank you very
much." -- where do you think that lead came from in the first place? Did
somebody bring it from the Moon?

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************

 

[William Sommerwerck]

There is no doubt lead should not be used where it can wind
up being consumed by humans or animals. It's use in gasoline,
paint, dyes, ceramic glazes, cast toys, trinkets, etc is indefensible.
On the other hand, banning it's use in ICs, and circuit boards is
asinine.

The anti-lead argument is that too much electronic equipment is dumped in
landfills, where acidic rainwater slowly dissolves the lead and it winds up
in the water supply. This is plausible, but I've yet to see any proof.

My argument has long been that the only dangerous substances are those that
actually get into the environment.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

AIUI, 99.9% of the lead in consumer electronics was in CRTs.
Isn't there something like a couple of pounds of the stuff in
there? Now that we've switched to LCDs, that problem has gone
away. The amount of lead in a circuit board is practically negligible.

Not when you have tens of thousands of circuit boards rotting in a landfill.