Tingles from DVD players

[Terry Given]

Rob wrote:

An interesting news article maybe.

"The dark side of the blogosphere was revealed by a libel action brought by
Michael Keith-Smith, a former Conservative party member who stood for Ukip
in Portsmouth North at the last election. He said he was moved to sue after
a woman with whom he was debating the merits of military action in Iraq
began a campaign of name-calling that started by describing him as "lard
brain" and culminated in falsely labelling him a "Nazi", a "racist bigot"
and a "nonce"."

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1737444,00.html

Yeah, I know kill-filing fixes most of the problem!

you'd think a towering intellect like Phil would realise that this is a
globally distributed public forum, and that anything libelous he writes
is likely to exist, if not forever then at least for a very long time.
eventually he's going to annoy someone who is happy to waste a bit of
money on lawyers

Cheers
Terry

 

[Ray]

In article <1143116063.459596.55190@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au says...

If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
Hi-Fi & HT :-
http://forum.aushifi.com/
........................a moderated forum that allows the posting of
graphics, circuit
diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many
newsgroups.

Hey fuckwit, who's the pot calling the kettle black?

Bloody Audiorasps creating flame wars themselves by starting agro.

 

[The Real Andy]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:16:16 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au


** Beware !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!


If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
Hi-Fi & HT :-



** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for fuckwit audiophools, moderated by
control freaks & psychopaths !!

Go for it dudes ......




....... Phil

I can faintly remember these behavioural traits from primary school

 

[Terry Given]

The Real Andy wrote:

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:16:16 +1100, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:


mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au


** Beware !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!



If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
Hi-Fi & HT :-



** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for fuckwit audiophools, moderated by
control freaks & psychopaths !!

Go for it dudes ......




....... Phil




I can faintly remember these behavioural traits from primary school

until the advent of usenet, the adult form was most commonly found in
parliament.

Cheers
Terry

 

[GB]

Jasen Betts <jasen@free.net.nz> wrote in
news:7df9.44228041.e78e8@clunker.homenet:

what's the deal with laplink cables ?

If the connector shells at each end are connected together, they
can connect the frame earth of the two devices. Not always a good
thing.

G
--
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the
entrails of the last priest." (Diderot, paraphrasing Meslier)

 

Ray wrote:

In article <1143116063.459596.55190@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com>,
mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au says...

If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
Hi-Fi & HT :-
http://forum.aushifi.com/
........................a moderated forum that allows the posting of
graphics, circuit
diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many
newsgroups.



Hey fuckwit, who's the pot calling the kettle black?

Bloody Audiorasps creating flame wars themselves by starting agro.

Starting agro ? ? ? You'd know it if I did.

 

[David, not to be confused]

Shame I don't have time to play, but frankly I can't resist. I am going to
change the order the post in this reply.

** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:

AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
heed !!
Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published standards
AT ALL !!

The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.

Shame they does not apply to ANONYMOUS idiots posting
dangerous CRAPOLOGY !

I believe it does.

Negligence has to be proven. Way too complicated for this discussion.
Standards
form the basis of many contractual and legal principles. Just to keep on
topic, if
the OP modified the DVD player and added an earth, one of the (legal) tests
that
could be applied when gathering evidence is whether that modification
contravened
the principles of the relevant electrical safety standard.

The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do - at
home !!

I am going to wind this back to the OPs point about earthing the enclosure,
that is
earthing externally accessible conductive parts to eliminate the effects of
touch current. Since Phil finds direct references too pedantic I shall keep it
very simple.

When assessing the insulation and construction methods of almost any Class 2
product all accessible conductive surfaces are considered to be conected to
earth
for the purpose of the assessment. Basically this simulates them being touched
by
a person or being placed in contact with other earthed apparatus.

Insulation working voltage, component rated voltages, etc all all determined
by "earthing" the circuit or part in a way that results in the highest working
voltage appearing across insulation systems. Non-conductive parts have a
section of foil (earthed via a resistor) pressed against them.

To look at it another way, the Class 2 product has to remain safe with an earth
connected to any accessible part of it. Inputs and outputs that are not
considered
"Hazardous Live" are also tested this way (such as RCA type I/O jacks).

Amplifier outputs are often classed as Hazardous Live circuits and as part of
the
abnormal and fault tolerance clauses in standards, these could also be earthed
to
ensure insulation systems do not fail and no fire hazard arises. This is a
separate
topic to earthing the enclosure.

If the OP is still reading this which I doubt, have the units checked by
someone who does "test and tag". If the touch (leakage) current is less than
0.25 mA then the tingle is normal (for some people). If you earth the
enclosure
you might wind up with hum and noise in the system but it should not cause you
any harm.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Terry Given"

= Kiwi ARSEHOLE & MASSIVE FUCKWIT


** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:

AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
heed !!

gee, here I was thinking

** No sign of that in your posts - ever.

The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do -
at home !!

Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published
standards AT ALL !!

The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.

so what.

** Bad idea for them to do anything that is dangerous to others or for
anyone to encourage them to do it.

its a moot point from an engineering perspective. These are the same
idiots that drive drunk, rob gas stations without covering their faces
etc, all of which are not just stupid and illegal, but criminal.

** That is just about the most asinine thing I have seen on this NG.

Terry Given = a rabid, psychotic, bloody lunatic.

I feel sorry for all those poor sheep.





.......... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"David, the TOTAL IDIOT "

** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:

AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
heed !!
Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published
standards
AT ALL !!

The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.

Shame they does not apply to ANONYMOUS idiots posting
dangerous CRAPOLOGY !

I believe it does.

** The "anonymous" bit would be a problem - FUCKWIT !!

Negligence has to be proven. Way too complicated for this discussion.

** It is the whole basis of the matter - you ASS.

The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do -
at
home !!

I am going to wind this back to the OPs point about earthing the
enclosure,

** Wrong issue.

That is another matter.




......... Phil

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-03-23, Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au

If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
Hi-Fi & HT :-

** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for fuckwit audiophools, moderated by
control freaks & psychopaths !!

Tranlation: Philthy isn't allowed in.


Bye.
Jasen

 

[The Real Andy]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:23:25 GMT, GB <g.b@sonicresearch.mailme.org>
wrote:

Jasen Betts <jasen@free.net.nz> wrote in
news:7df9.44228041.e78e8@clunker.homenet:
what's the deal with laplink cables ?

If the connector shells at each end are connected together, they
can connect the frame earth of the two devices. Not always a good
thing.

But, if the device is double insulated, then wont the exposed frames
be doubly isolated from the mains earth? IS this not why you get the
tingle? the whole frame is floating about mains earth because it is
not connected to mains earth.

Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps there is a secret earth connection to
double insultated gear that the manufacturers just accidently forgot
to tell people about. Perhaps the manufacturers decided to make you
mains earth magically float up. Or perhpas they just built in some
electric shocking mechanism for fun.



I remember daealing with a sparky when i was a 1st year apprentice. He
just couldn't figure out why, that if i was not connected to mains
earth or to neutral i could touch active and not get electrocuted. I
even gave him personal proof once. I then got a multimeter and put one
probe in active, and the other in the air, and asked him why it did
not give any significant reading, until i stuck the other probe in
neutral or earth. He still did not get it.

It all stemmed from the discussion of the use of isolation
transformers..

>G

 

[The Real Andy]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 10:32:20 +1200, Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org>
wrote:

The Real Andy wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:16:16 +1100, "Phil Allison"
philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:


mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au


** Beware !!!!

The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania

Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".

Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!



If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
Hi-Fi & HT :-



** ROTFL !!

A very recently set up chat room for fuckwit audiophools, moderated by
control freaks & psychopaths !!

Go for it dudes ......




....... Phil




I can faintly remember these behavioural traits from primary school


until the advent of usenet, the adult form was most commonly found in
parliament.

more frequently in mental institutions.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-03-24, Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Jasen Betts" = just another anencephalic Kiwi

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.

And that would be a problem how?

** Read the whole thread - FUCKWIT !

you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor could
be dangerous, I didn't see any explanation of how earthing the appliance was
bad. (except earth loops)

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.

says you...

** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.

" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliance built in accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."

that seems odd, perhaps because it's taken out of context.

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.

it must be wrong then... I see many devices with the double squares but no
"do not earth"

and connecting what's that bad thing that going to happen by connecting my
VCR and DVD player to my ancient TV (Phillips K9ii) which has an eathed
antenna connector.

** If you actually ever learn to read one day, Jasen, it will be a
miracle.

" Earthed" = " mains earthed" = connected to the AC ground via a standard
3 pin plug and 3 pin outlet.

I know how to read an ohmmeter and it tells me the outer conductor of the
anterena socket is conneted to the earth pin on the mains lead.

If you don't believe me you can come over here aand measure it or dig up a
schematic somewhere, the K9 was once quite common.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jasen Bleats" = Kiwi sheep fucker



** Even NZ sheep wont let this PITC in.




......... Phil

 

[Rob]

"Terry Given" <my_name@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:1143124458.155750@ftpsrv1...

Rob wrote:
An interesting news article maybe.

"The dark side of the blogosphere was revealed by a libel action brought
by
Michael Keith-Smith, a former Conservative party member who stood for
Ukip
in Portsmouth North at the last election. He said he was moved to sue
after
a woman with whom he was debating the merits of military action in Iraq
began a campaign of name-calling that started by describing him as "lard
brain" and culminated in falsely labelling him a "Nazi", a "racist
bigot"
and a "nonce"."

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1737444,00.html

Yeah, I know kill-filing fixes most of the problem!

you'd think a towering intellect like Phil would realise that this is a
globally distributed public forum, and that anything libelous he writes
is likely to exist, if not forever then at least for a very long time.
eventually he's going to annoy someone who is happy to waste a bit of
money on lawyers

Cheers
Terry

Hey - perhaps lawyers aren't so bad after all!

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jasen Bleats"


= just another anencephalic sheep FUCKING Kiwi MORON

** Read the whole thread - FUCKWIT !

you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor
could
be dangerous,

** Find those words from me and post them.

Or go back to rooting pregnant sheep.

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
compulsory.

it must be wrong then..

** No.




......... Phil

 

[Chris Jones]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Chris Jones"


** Do you constantly move the goalposts at sporting events too ?


I don't consider posting to usenet to be a competition,


** Then why keep moving the goal posts like is is one you cannot bear to
loose ??

When I change the topic, it has not been with the intention of winning or
avoiding "loosing" (or even losing) an argument. I don't like being wrong
but the only way around that is to learn more. If I think I have nothing
to add on a particular topic then I don't write anything about it. If it
leads me to think about a different topic that interests me then I will ask
or comment about that. You have posted some thought-provoking replies and
I thank you for that. I know more than I used to about a couple of things.

I just like to learn stuff.


** If you mean that, then why make it impossible for anyone to answer you
?

I think you have managed ok.

 

[Malcolm Moore]

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 12:05:21 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Malcolm Moore"
"Phil Allison"


** Have you never seen the words " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on
the back of a class 2 item ??

Pretty clear isn't it?

I've just checked all the double insulated items in my home and NONE
of them carry a warning such as you describe.


** The warning notice is not compulsory.

Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double Insulated"
are.


The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
electronics industry.

So where does the "PROHIBITION" come from?


** The fact that a class 2 appliance must not be earthed.


Previously you said such interconnection was prohibited, now you're
saying to ignore the issue??


** Huh ???

What madman's logic is this ?

What the hell do you think "X -rated " means ???

Fair comment. You have chosen to delete part of your previous post to
which I was replying. I'll put it back in.

Equipment makers are not liable for what users may WRONGLY do when
interconnecting items of gear - so just ignore the issue.



The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
electronics industry.

Your use of a hyphen before "so just ignore the issue." led me to
believe that was your view. On reading it again I realise you were
attributing that to the manufacturers. That sentence would have been
clearer with a comma or even no punctuation there.
My apologies for misunderstanding.

** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no
AC
ground to the metalwork.

Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just
bought
from Ebay but with no AC plug.

Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
earth reversed and makes all the connections.

The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
LIVE !!!

In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
!!!!


If this danger was significant then the use of Class 2 equipment is
inherently unsafe because it would be relying on user action to make
it safe, the user action being to not interconnect with other commonly
available items.


** Absolute drivel.

Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
types.

What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
of makers or authorities.

As you say above, "Equipment makers are not liable
for what users may WRONGLY do.....", but regulators are always
interested in such things. They seem relaxed about the situation.


** SFA they can do about it.

Which is exactly why there is no prohibition on interconnecting
earthed and double insulated home entertainment equipment.

The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
earth a class 2 item.

As in my other post, the legal liability arises from miswiring a plug,
not from interconecting different classes of equipment.

--
Regards
Malcolm
Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address

 

[Malcolm Moore]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 14:02:29 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Malcolm Moore"

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.

says you...


** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.

" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliances built in accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.


In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated

---------------------------------
** The warning notice is not compulsory.
"Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
Insulated" are. "
---------------------------------


** So ?

So you have contradicted yourself in quoting from the Standard you are
relying upon. Hardly the tactic to use to convince people of your
position on this matter.

Your use of the title AS 3100 perhaps indicates you are relying on an
old version, it has been AS/NZS 3100 since at least 2002 when the
ccurrent version was promulgated.

You made NO reply to the other answers I so thoughtfully gave you.

I have rectified this in another post.

Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
types.

What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
of makers or authorities.

The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
earth a class 2 item .

No. The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who
elects to miswire the plug on a Class 1 item, with phase and earth
swapped, and then doesn't do required testing before it is placed in
service. The equipment would be just as dangerous if it were used
stand alone.

In some cases, doing that would be equivalent to murder.

In most jurisdictions that would be manslaughter or culpable homicide
or similar. Still a serious charge.

--
Regards
Malcolm
Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address

 

[Chris Jones]

David, not to be confused with the other Davids. wrote:

There is no rule in the safety or wiring standards that prevents you
from doing so,


** Of course there is !!

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.

You are correct for a transformer based power supply device such as a
plug-pack, but this is not necessarily the case for other products. The
deliniation between Class 1 and Class 2 is becoming very grey. Whereas
AS3108 and AS/NZS61558-1 say any transformer that has an earth terminal
must be classified as Class 1 other standards do not.

Definition and references below from AS/NZS60950-1, since I happen to be
using it at the moment. Note the use of earthing is not prohibited, just
that the
safety strategy of the design must not rely on the protective earth. This
standard might/is be used for a switch mode PSU plug-pack.

=====
"COPYRIGHT"
1.2.4.2 CLASS II EQUIPMENT: Equipment in which protection against electric
shock does not
rely on BASIC INSULATION only,but in which additional safety
precautions,such as DOUBLE
INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION are provided,there being no reliance
on protective
earthing.
=====

There have been many changes since the old AS3108 and AS3100 type
standards
existed as the sole point of reference. None of those standards took into
account EMC filtering or stray currents due to SMPSU, etc. With the more
modern standards you can certainly use Class 2 construction, with
functional
(not protective) earthing. Note, connecting an earth does not
automatically make it Class 1 in this standard.

If you want to split hairs on the issue over the Class 2 box-in-box
marking,
perhaps I should of said before to scatch off the symbol. It is then
functionally earthed Class 2 construction. It can only be truly Class 1
if the
earthing is protective. There is no marking to define these products
(yet). The mis-wiring of plugs etc is not a factor taken into
consideration.

Here is a reference from the same standard:

======
"COPYRIGHT"
2.6.2 Functional earthing
If FUNCTIONAL EARTHING of accessible or other conductive parts is
necessary,all of the
following apply to the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit:
- the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit shall be separated from parts at
HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES
in the equipment by either:
.DOUBLE INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION or
. a protectively earthed screen or another protectively earthed conductive
part,
separated from parts at HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES by at least BASIC INSULATION
and - it is permitted to connect the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit to a
protective earth terminal
or to a PROTECTIVE BONDING CONDUCTOR and

snip a lot of stuff that isn't relevant to the argument
=====================

The only safety related condition is that any earthing required for
safety of
the Class 1 device is maintained at the desired level. Which is 1.6
times the
rated current of an inherent protective device (eg. internal fusing).


** You are just making this crazy drivel up.

The earthing requirements for a class 1 appliance relate to the copper
cross
section of the earth wire used, ie must not be not less than 1 sq mm. (
AS3100)

1.0 sq mm for 10A cords up to 2 metres long and 1.5 sq mm for 10A cords
longer than 2 metres.

I did make a mistake with the multiplication factor, it is 1.5 and not 1.6
times. I am not making it up - sometimes I think it would be easier to
understand if I did. For functional earthing there is no size requirement
other than that needed for it to do the intended job. For protective
earthing and bonding you can provide the minimum conductor sizes in the
standard (1.0 or 1.5 sq mm), or use the minimum size conductor that meets
the following:

==============
"COPYRIGHT"
2.6.3.3 Size of protective bonding conductors
PROTECTIVE BONDING CONDUCTORS shall comply with one of the following:
- the minimum conductor sizes in table 3B (see 3.2.5);or
- the requirements of 2.6.3.4 and also,if the current rating of the
circuit is more than
16 A,with the minimum conductor sizes in table 2D;or
-for components only,be not smaller than the conductors supplying power to
the component.
The current rating of the circuit used in table 2D and in the test of
2.6.3.4 depends on the
provision and location of overcurrent protective devices and shall be
taken as the smaller of
a)or b)as follows.
a)The rating of an overcurrent protective device specified in the
equipment installation
instructions to be installed in the building installation wiring to
protect the equipment.?47
b)The rating of an overcurrent protective device in the equipment that
protects the circuit
or part required to be earthed.
For PLUGGABLE EQUIPMENT TYPE A and if neither a)nor b)is applicable,the
current rating of
the circuit shall be taken as the RATED CURRENT of the equipment or 16
A,whichever is
greater.
=================

So (b) takes into account the rating of protective device that protects
the
circuit or part that needs to be protectively earthed. If a part that
could fail to earth is protected by a 1A fuse then the protective
conducter is sized to pass the following test, otherwise a great many PCB
tracks that carry earth within a small SMPSU would be disallowed.

If a series connected mains socket or device is protected by a (say) 5A
fuse the intermediate bonding conductors to the equipment mounted socket
outlet
could be reduced in size accordingly. Fifteen years ago you couldn't do
this, but you can now.

This is the test for bonding conductors.
=================
The test current,duration of the test and test results are as follows:
- if the current rating of the circuit under test is 16 A or less, the
test current is 1,5 times the
current rating of the circuit under test, the current is applied for 60 s
and the resistance of
the PROTECTIVE BONDING CONDUCTOR , calculated from the voltage drop,shall
not exceed
0,1 ?;
=================

There are many cases where AS3100 or AS3108 say a specific thing cannot be
done but a more modern product specific standard may allow it, and
AS/NZS3000 is no longer a prescriptive standard with regard to anything on
the equipment side of the supply interface.

The damn standards change so often it costs us thousands of dollars a year
to keep up to date.

Thanks, that was quite interesting. Thanks also to the other posters,

I wish that standards like these which have to all intents and purposes
become legally binding, were automatically placed in the public domain.
Imagine if all laws were as difficult to access - the public would not
tolerate that.
Chris