Tingles from DVD players

[Terry Given]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Terry Given"

= Kiwi ARSEHOLE & MASSIVE BUCKET

" David, the pedantic FUCKWIT one."


good stuff on the standards.



** Yawn - none of it had ANY relevance at all.




There's not much point replying to Phil, he's wrong and being abusive
because you proved it quite conclusively.



** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:

AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
heed !!

gee, here I was thinking its an electronics forum, where people come to
learn/share things about electronics. In which case a good hard look at
the relevant standards is excellent; few if any hobbyists get to see
these things, they are expensive.

The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do - at
home !!

Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published standards
AT ALL !!

The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.

so what. its a moot point from an engineering perspective. These are the
same idiots that drive drunk, rob gas stations without covering their
faces etc, all of which are not just stupid and illegal, but criminal.

Shame they does not apply to ANONYMOUS idiots posting dangerous CRAPOLOGY !



........ Phil

Cheers
Terry

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jasen Betts" = just another anencephalic Kiwi

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.

And that would be a problem how?

** Read the whole thread - FUCKWIT !

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.

says you...

** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.

" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliance built in accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.

and connecting what's that bad thing that going to happen by connecting my
VCR and DVD player to my ancient TV (Phillips K9ii) which has an eathed
antenna connector.

** If you actually ever learn to read one day, Jasen, it will be a
miracle.

" Earthed" = " mains earthed" = connected to the AC ground via a standard
3 pin plug and 3 pin outlet.




........ Phil

 

[Malcolm Moore]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:57:58 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"Jasen Betts" = just another anencephalic Kiwi

snip

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.

says you...


** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.

" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliance built in accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.

In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated

---------------------------------
** The warning notice is not compulsory.
"Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
Insulated" are. "
---------------------------------

AS/NZS 3100 is not the applicable standard for domestic entertainment
equipment. It is used for equipment that does not have a specific
standard.

AS/NZS 60065:2000
Audio, video and similar electronic
apparatus-Safety requirements
(IEC 60065:1998 MOD)

is the appropriate standard for this discussion.


snip
--
Regards
Malcolm
Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address

 

[Phil Allison]

"Malcolm Moore"

A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.

says you...


** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.

" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliances built in accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.


In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated

---------------------------------
** The warning notice is not compulsory.
"Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
Insulated" are. "
---------------------------------

** So ?


You made NO reply to the other answers I so thoughtfully gave you.


Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
types.

What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
of makers or authorities.

The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
earth a class 2 item .

In some cases, doing that would be equivalent to murder.




......... Phil

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-03-24, The Real Andy <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote:

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:23:25 GMT, GB <g.b@sonicresearch.mailme.org
wrote:

Jasen Betts <jasen@free.net.nz> wrote in
news:7df9.44228041.e78e8@clunker.homenet:
what's the deal with laplink cables ?

If the connector shells at each end are connected together, they
can connect the frame earth of the two devices. Not always a good
thing.

But, if the device is double insulated, then wont the exposed frames
be doubly isolated from the mains earth? IS this not why you get the
tingle? the whole frame is floating about mains earth because it is
not connected to mains earth.

To be honest, I hadn't considered the possibility that the serial port might
be isolated from the circuitry inside the laptop.

this one isn't.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 02:37:01 +1200, Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

eventually he's going to annoy someone who is happy to waste a bit of
money on lawyers

Since when does a lawyer do anything for a "bit" of money?

Just to put things in perspective, consider that the trial of Slobodan
Milosevic, the Balkan butcher, had been going for more than 4 years at
a cost to taxpayers of several hundreds of millions of dollars before
he put a merciful end to the legal gravy train by topping himself. In
that same amount of time the world managed to start and finish a World
War, and I completed an engineering degree.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-03-24, something claiming to be Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

** Read the whole thread

you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor
could be dangerous,

** Find those words from me and post them.

} Message-ID: <48bnusFjb1roU1@individual.net>
} From: "Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au>
} Newsgroups: aus.electronics
} Subject: Re: Tingles from DVD players
} Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:35:28 +1100

....

} ** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no AC
} ground to the metalwork.
}
} Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just bought
} from Ebay but with no AC plug.
}
} Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
} earth reversed and makes all the connections.
}
} The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
} with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
} LIVE !!!
}
} In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
} !!!!

There you go "class two appliance connected to a live conductor"
(an incorrectly wired class one appliance) are you going to argue that
the connectors on it aren't live conductors?

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
compulsory.

it must be wrong then..

** No.

In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Phil Allison]

"Malcolm Moore" = another Kiwi half-wit

** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.

" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliances built in
accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
compulsory.


In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated

---------------------------------
** The warning notice is not compulsory.
"Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
Insulated" are. "
---------------------------------


** So ?

So you have contradicted yourself .....

** No I have not !

The warning "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " is not on many class 2 items
*these days*.

The Asian makers of DVD players and the like do NOT have to follow
Australian standards.

These items are NOT on the "prescribed" items list so require no formal
type approval.

Your use of the title AS 3100 perhaps indicates you are relying on an
old version,

** The safety issues involved have not changed.

Class 2 items are very safe largely BECAUSE they are NOT earthed.

Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
types.

What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the
control
of makers or authorities.

The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
earth a class 2 item .

No.

** The liability automatically exists - you bullshitting fool.

In some cases, doing that would be equivalent to murder.


In most jurisdictions that would be manslaughter or culpable homicide
or similar. Still a serious charge.

** You missed the point entirely.

But at least you agree that earthing a class 2 item can be a very serious
matter since the possible outcome is a person's death.

The WHOLE idea behind class 2 construction was to eliminate FIRST the need
for and HENCE the electric shock HAZARD presented by having an earth wire
on a plug in appliance.




.......... Phil

 

[TT]

<mdhjwh@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:1143262824.218793.92210@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/internet-slanging-match-ends-up-in-high-court/2006/03/23/1143083906475.html
Internet slanging match ends up in High Court
A political argument that erupted in a remote corner of
cyberspace and
descended into vicious name-calling could lead to a spate of
libel
actions by contributors to internet message boards.

The dark side of the blogosphere was revealed by a libel
action brought
by Michael Keith-Smith, a former Conservative Party member
who stood
for the United Kingdom Independence Party in Portsmouth
North, on the
south coast of England, at the last election.

He said he was moved to sue after a woman with whom he was
debating the
merits of military action in Iraq began a campaign of
name-calling that
started by describing him as "lard brain" and culminated in
labelling
him a "Nazi", a "racist bigot" and a "nonce".

Judge Alistair MacDuff in the High Court ordered Tracy
Williams, a
college lecturer from Oldham, in north-west England, to pay
Ł10,000
($24,000) in damages, plus Mr Keith-Smith's Ł7200 costs, and
told
never to repeat the allegations.

The case is one of the first of its kind between two private
individuals to go to court, said lawyers. It highlighted
issues that
would become more prominent as internet use continued to
grow and
blogging, social networking and community sites became yet
more
popular, they said.

Mr Keith-Smith said he took action after a debate about the
Iraq war in
2003 on a Yahoo! message board with about 100 members turned
ugly.

"She was very pro-[US President George] Bush. Initially, she
called me
lard brain and I wasn't particularly concerned about that.
Then she
called me a Nazi," he said.

He has also taken action against a second poster, he said,
with whom he
claimed to have settled for a sum "in the region of
Ł30,000".

"They started saying I was on a sex offenders' list and that
people
shouldn't let me near their children," said Mr Keith-Smith,
who is also
chairman of the Conservative Democratic Alliance, which
bills itself as
"the leading voice of the radical Tory right".

Legal experts said the case should be taken as a warning to
the
millions of people debating contentious issues on message
boards, in
chatrooms and on their own blogs.

The Guardian

Oh how all of this sounds sooooo familiar ;-) I wonder if
this judge could be tempted to take a working holiday to Oz?
;-)

Cheers TT

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-03-25, Phil Allison <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

There you go "class two appliance connected to a live conductor"
(an incorrectly wired class one appliance) are you going to argue that
the connectors on it aren't live conductors?

** What an illiterate IDIOT you are - Jasen !!

The user in MY EXAMPLE connected the various, ground linked class 2
appliances in his audio system to the metalwork of a class 1 item by simply
*plugging the audio and leads in* - thereby connecting the previously non
earthed class 2 system to the " supply earth".

He was connecting them to a live conductor. he may have considered it to be
"supply earth" but it wasn't.

The defective wiring of a *single class 1 item* ( it does not matter a
HOOT how it got that way) then rendered an entire system live and LETHAL.

Is that not an example of it being bad to connect the inputs of a Class 2
device to a live conductor. ?

the faulty device would be potentially lethal without conductive connections
to other equipment.

if there were two class one items in the setup the fault would have been
detected.

It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
compulsory.

it must be wrong then..

** No.

In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.

** Your raving mad opinion - not mine.

are you saying that something compulsory isn't required for compliance?
or that for some reason all the other posters who've posted on this subject
have an atypical collection of class 2 devices in that practically none of
the bear the legend "do not earth"

Bye.
Jasen

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jasen Bleatts"

= New Zealand's very Worst.

He was connecting them to a live conductor.

** By accident - F U C K W I T !!!!!!

In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.

** Your raving mad opinion - not mine.

are you saying ...

** I am not saying what I did not say.

Go away - Jasen.

Eat a packet of rat poison - Jasen.

Eat two.






......... Phil

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2006-03-25, The Real Andy <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote:

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 21:11:05 -0000, Jasen Betts <jasen@free.net.nz
wrote:

On 2006-03-24, The Real Andy <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:23:25 GMT, GB <g.b@sonicresearch.mailme.org
wrote:

Jasen Betts <jasen@free.net.nz> wrote in
news:7df9.44228041.e78e8@clunker.homenet:
what's the deal with laplink cables ?

If the connector shells at each end are connected together, they
can connect the frame earth of the two devices. Not always a good
thing.

But, if the device is double insulated, then wont the exposed frames
be doubly isolated from the mains earth? IS this not why you get the
tingle? the whole frame is floating about mains earth because it is
not connected to mains earth.

To be honest, I hadn't considered the possibility that the serial port might
be isolated from the circuitry inside the laptop.

Read what i stated.

typically it will, but there's no requirement.

this one isn't.

SO are you suggesting that your laptop connects the serial port to
mains earth?

(I meant this one isn't isolated from the rest of the laptop)

this one connects it to the chassis, and the laplink cable connects
it to the pc which is earthed.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[The Real Andy]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 00:21:18 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"The Real Andy"

" Jasen Bleatts"

Read what i stated.

SO are you suggesting that your laptop connects the serial port to
mains earth?



** Watch out - Andy.

Jasen thinks a glass of sheep dip is a aphrodisiac.

It is a lost cause, some get it, some dont.

...... Phil

 

[Malcolm Moore]

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 23:44:35 +0000, Chris Jones
<lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks, that was quite interesting. Thanks also to the other posters,

I wish that standards like these which have to all intents and purposes
become legally binding, were automatically placed in the public domain.
Imagine if all laws were as difficult to access - the public would not
tolerate that.
Chris

I agree.

An advantage of Electrical Registration in NZ is that the Electrical
Workers Registration Board supply free of charge paper copies of the
Electricity Regulations, AS/NZS 3000, AS/NZS 3760, and pdfs on a cd of
9 others to registered workers.

Last year they announced an agreement with Standards NZ to give online
access for registered workers to all standards referenced in AS/NZS
3000. Unfortunately that hasn't yet occured because there are problems
between the two organisations websites.

--
Regards
Malcolm
Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address

 

[The Real Andy]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 11:08:49 +1100, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

<snipped insults>

One think i found when getting gear approved in QLD is that the
inspector was less aware of the Standards than I was. What is even
worse is that he granted an approval on a product that was quite
clearly not compliant. I can handle this for a small time production
that will never face the public, but the device in question I can
guarantee that a significant amount of QLD/VIC public have been
exposed too. Fortunately the 'Approved product' was fixed before
shipping.

I find it obscure that EMC compliance is more difficult and expensive
than electrical compliance. Go figure..

........ Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jasen Betts" <jasen@free.net.nz>

like a laplink cable?

** Piss off - kiwi tenth wit.

The sheep are missing you.





........ Phil

 

[Chris Jones]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Chris Jones"
Phil Allison wrote:

Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably do
this
anyway?


** Yes - the units are not longer "double insulated" or of "class 2"
construction if you substitute a 3 core lead.

Sure, that seems obvious.


** You have completely missed the point.


The device would then be modified, the original
electrical approval would not be valid,


** Correct - so the markings on the unit (ie "class 2" and the double
square symbols) would be then ILLEGAL.


and it would not be possible to
approve the device as a class 2 device with the case earthed. Are you
aware of any technical reason why the device could not be approved as a
class 1 device (hypothetically, since the cost of testing would be more
than prohibitive)?


** Yawn.

This is an entirely separate issue to the OP's question AND my reply.

Ok but I was interested, in case you know something about it that I could
learn from. I agree that I am slightly changing the subject, however I
thought it worth asking since the OP or others in a similar position might
be inclined to do whatever they feel like, provided they think it is safe,
but in spite of the law. If there were a serious technical reason why it
would be unsafe, rather than a (re)labelling or legal issue then it would
be good to be aware of it.

If chassis earthing elminates this issue, then it would be a nice
feature and customer friendly to do so.


** Completely silly.

The use of Class 2 construction is a VERY deliberate decision and for
very
good reasons.

Apart from the earth loop hum you refer to, what reasons are you
referring to?


** 1. Class 2 construction is far SAFER for the user.

2. Class 2 construction meets world wide electrical approvals making it
far easier for makers to market the same design world wide.

3. The use of class 2 is almost universal for some classes of electronic
equipment.

4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2
equipment.





........ Phil

I am surprised by (4) since many hi-fi amplifiers (at least older ones) do
have an earthed case, for better or for worse. It is not made very clear
to the average user that connecting the amplifier to a typical (class 2) CD
player would be prohibited, for example I haven't seen such a warning in
the instruction manual of a CD player. I don't have the necessary
knowledge of the standards to refute what you say, but it does surprise me.
Perhaps you mean something different when you say 'interconnecting' from
what I had interpreted, i.e. connecting a shielded audio cable between two
devices, thus connecting their metal cases together. Anyway thanks for
your answer.

Chris

 

[Phil Allison]

"Chris Jones"
Phil Allison wrote:

4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2
equipment.

I am surprised by (4)

** Have you never seen the words " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on
the back of a class 2 item ??

Pretty clear isn't it?

since many hi-fi amplifiers (at least older ones) do
have an earthed case, for better or for worse. It is not made very clear
to the average user that connecting the amplifier to a typical (class 2)
CD
player would be prohibited,

** It is not prohibited by criminal law - so no police officer will arrest
you for doing it.

But it is an * unsafe practice* that could be considered as " serious
negligence " by a court if a person were injured or killed.

for example I haven't seen such a warning in
the instruction manual of a CD player.

** " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on the back of the player is a
*stronger warning* that anything printed in a user manual that likely gets
lost with the packaging.

Equipment makers are not liable for what users may WRONGLY do when
interconnecting items of gear - so just ignore the issue.

The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
electronics industry.

I don't have the necessary
knowledge of the standards to refute what you say, but it does surprise
me.

** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no AC
ground to the metalwork.

Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just bought
from Ebay but with no AC plug.

Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
earth reversed and makes all the connections.

The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
LIVE !!!

In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
!!!!


NOTE:

One of the BIGGEST user safety advantages of class 2 construction is that
no matter how WRONGLY the AC plug is wired & no matter what is wrong with
the AC outlet, you cannot get active onto the earth of the gear.




......... Phil

 

[Terry Given]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Chris Jones"
Phil Allison wrote:


4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2
equipment.


I am surprised by (4)



** Have you never seen the words " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on
the back of a class 2 item ??

Pretty clear isn't it?



since many hi-fi amplifiers (at least older ones) do
have an earthed case, for better or for worse. It is not made very clear
to the average user that connecting the amplifier to a typical (class 2)
CD
player would be prohibited,



** It is not prohibited by criminal law - so no police officer will arrest
you for doing it.

But it is an * unsafe practice* that could be considered as " serious
negligence " by a court if a person were injured or killed.



for example I haven't seen such a warning in
the instruction manual of a CD player.



** " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on the back of the player is a
*stronger warning* that anything printed in a user manual that likely gets
lost with the packaging.

Equipment makers are not liable for what users may WRONGLY do when
interconnecting items of gear - so just ignore the issue.

The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
electronics industry.



I don't have the necessary
knowledge of the standards to refute what you say, but it does surprise
me.



** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no AC
ground to the metalwork.

Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just bought
from Ebay but with no AC plug.

Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
earth reversed and makes all the connections.

The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
LIVE !!!

In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
!!!!


NOTE:

One of the BIGGEST user safety advantages of class 2 construction is that
no matter how WRONGLY the AC plug is wired & no matter what is wrong with
the AC outlet, you cannot get active onto the earth of the gear.

........ Phil

a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper. the plug, cable and
interconnects cost less, and because of the double insulation, none of
the metalwork has to be earthed, which it does with class 1 - for many
standards the metalwork earthing must carry the rated current, further
increasing the cost.

The above scenario can only happen when people fiddle with things, and
so is not relevant to manufacturers (they build them right). Such a
scenario also occurs with a single class 1 appliance wired up by the
same dickhead. Voila, live chassis (and dead operator).

Cheers
Terry

 

[Terry Given]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Terry Given"



a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper.


** Bullshit it is.

The specs for the AC supply transformer alone are way beyond that for class
1.

double insulation pretty much means 2 sets of insulation, so that when
one fails there is still one left. yes the xfmr is a bit more expensive,
but a whole bunch of other stuff gets cheaper.

look inside a hair dryer, that is far, far cheaper as a class 2 device
than class 1.

The design rules for every part of the AC side are way tougher.

not really, and they are made easier by the proliferation of plastic.

the plug, cable and interconnects cost less,



** By a few cents only.

why do you think they use phenolic paper PCBs, and an interseting mix of
1%, 5%, 10% and 20% components? when you build 500,000,000 of something,
all them cents add up.

and because of the double insulation, none of the metalwork has to be
earthed, which it does with class 1 - for many standards the metalwork
earthing must carry the rated current, further increasing the cost.



** What absolute drivel.

Phil has obviously never read BS-EN61010

The above scenario can only happen when people fiddle with things,



** More " Pinball Wizard " bullshit.



so is not relevant to manufacturers (they build them right).



** It is *very elevata" to the increased safety of class 2.

It is *very relevant" to the PROHIBITION on earthing a class 2 appliance.




Such a scenario also occurs with a single class 1 appliance wired up by
the same dickhead.



** But NOT a system of interconnected class 1 appliances.

depends on the system, and how they are interconnected.

Hence the prohibition on earthing a class 2 appliance or system thereof.

They are very safe until you do that.




Voila, live chassis (and dead operator).



** Please go try it now.




....... Phil

Cheers
Terry