The Truth about Corona Virus Situation and what every person

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 6:13:03 PM UTC+1, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 5:37:54 AM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
skybuck2000@hotmail.com wrote...

The truth in the Netherlands is as follows ...
(ICU=Intensive Care Unit)

1. Less than 300 free intensive care units / beds are
available on a population of 17 million. The rest are
already occupied, in total there are 1150 ICU units.

We're moving to total isolation, to stop any further
spreading beyond those already infected. This isn't
a good long-term solution, and new spreading centers
will start once we relax the isolation. But what we
haven't been hearing much about is new therapeutics,
custom-designed to help severely-compromised Covid-19
victims survive, without the use of ICU beds. Once we
have that, we can safely cease the isolation approach.
The therapeutics will be easier to manufacture, and
only relatively-small quantities will be required,
compared to a vaccine, which must be population-wide.
There are 50 companies working on therapeutics, and
several claim to already have working results.

I've seen several posts about vitamin C being highly effective. lol

Unless this disease goes for many months (which is not at all unlikely) don't expect to see any cures, treatments or vaccines. Even with a relaxation of the laws regarding new medicines it will be a slow road.

This is a 9-11 scale event.

I wish it was, then it would be USA, Iraq, Afghanistan and maybe some immigrant crisis in Europe.

This is going to be much bigger than 9-11 as long as no real solution is found.
Though this thread has some drug related discussions which is kinda interesting, I can remember these drugs being fed in China to patient, but it's been forgotten in Europe, don't here anything about it anymore on the news, that alone is kinda scary. Once a solution is found how can be be share patients are then treated with it.... perhaps people benefit from others dieing

It's already 10x bigger than 9-11 it will probably blow up even more like 100x or 1000x time 9-11 cause we still in the start of it as far as I am concerned.

Unfortunately my knowledge about drugs is very very very very limited so I cannot tell what this is about. I could google it later though.

Bye for now,
Skybuck.

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <1039d14d-a4a7-4547-91c5-b400504895f8@googlegroups.com>,
mpmillard@aol.com says...

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 12:50:26 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
Keep drinking those Gin and Tonics!

Best idea I've heard all day!

Trouble is I failed to stockpile lemons and could only get tiny limes.
Not sure it will be the same...

Mike.

 

[David Brown]

On 20/03/2020 02:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

News:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus

Wow, if it works DT will be a hero.

That sad thing is, there will be a large number of naĂŻve and ignorant
Americans who will think he /is/ a hero here. All he has done is got
things completely wrong, contradicting his expert staff at every step
(including here), and making random decisions that he thinks will make
the stock market go up. But like a stopped clock, he occasionally gets
something right by luck - and his drolling zombie followers think he is
a genius for his few successes, while all his uncountable mistakes are
just a Democrat / media conspiracy.

Obviously I hope the drugs here work - but even if they do, Trump is
doing more harm than good as he screws up American doctors' ability to
test them properly.

He is no hero - he is a narcissistic buffoon, whose single skill (and
he's /really/ good at this one) is blowing his own trumpet.

 

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:32:11 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 02:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

News:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus

Wow, if it works DT will be a hero.


That sad thing is, there will be a large number of naďve and ignorant
Americans who will think he /is/ a hero here. All he has done is got
things completely wrong, contradicting his expert staff at every step
(including here), and making random decisions that he thinks will make
the stock market go up. But like a stopped clock, he occasionally gets
something right by luck - and his drolling zombie followers think he is
a genius for his few successes, while all his uncountable mistakes are
just a Democrat / media conspiracy.

Obviously I hope the drugs here work - but even if they do, Trump is
doing more harm than good as he screws up American doctors' ability to
test them properly.

The drugs are available and known to be safe. If some people are
dying, it may save lives to use them now. If it works, use them
widely. If "testing properly" means years of careful clinical trials
and peer-reviewed papers, delay years until the virus has burned out,
people will die. What DT says is his sensible: go for it now and see
what happens.

No doubt some people will, and we will see if these drugs help.

He is no hero - he is a narcissistic buffoon, whose single skill (and
he's /really/ good at this one) is blowing his own trumpet.

His other rare skills include lack of caution and common sense.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
"Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

 

[David Brown]

On 20/03/2020 00:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:56:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 12:40:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looks like chloroquine plus azithromycin knocks the Wu flu dead.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf
Hope it pans out on a large scale!

Me too, but there might be a political problem:

Why Hasn’t Tony Fauci Been at the Coronavirus Press Conferences?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/tony-fauci-at-coronavirus-press-conferences.html
Quoting...

One person who has expressed a more skeptical view of chloroquine is
task force member and immunologist Anthony Fauci, the veteran face of
the country’s response to disease outbreaks. But Fauci has not
appeared at a press conference since Tuesday, when Trump said he had
become a major television star.

Fauci for the past two days had been saying that chloroquine is not a
miracle cure and that we still need to determine its safety.

Speaking to Laura Ingraham on Fox News on Tuesday, Fauci said, "We
have to be careful, Laura, that we don’t assume something works based
on an anecdotal report that’s not controlled. And I refer specifically
to hydroxychloroquine. There’s a lot of buzz out there on the internet
on the social media about that."

On Wednesday, he reiterated this message in an interview with CNN’s
Chris Cuomo, saying he supported large-scale clinical trials but was
against "just throwing the drug out there, which is not a good idea."

We don't have enough people really ill from C19 to have large-scale
clinical trials. We already know the drug is safe, so it's unlikely to
do any harm. Get a dozen sick people to volunteer and see what
happens.

Some adventurous doctors should do that now. It's available and legal
to prescribe.

It is conceivable that you are smart at electronics, but you really
haven't the faintest clue about anything related to this virus, medical
procedures, drugs, testing, etc.

You are mostly harmless, in that no one takes you seriously in this
discussion - you are a target of ridicule, not a source of information.
The problem is you represent an unpleasantly large proportion of people
who are equally ignorant, thoughtless and selfish, with an equally
overinflated idea of their own competence. And the biggest problem the
USA faces is that they are lead by the prime example of this kind of
determined, paranoid idiocy.

So now any American doctors trying to do the right thing in testing
drugs on this virus are going to be pressured on one side by half-wit
politicians whose only concern is trying to look good on television, and
desperate relatives on the other side who want their sick relative cured
and don't care about anyone else.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 5:22:30 AM UTC-4, Martin Brown wrote:

On 19/03/2020 09:37, Winfield Hill wrote:
skybuck2000@hotmail.com wrote...

The truth in the Netherlands is as follows ...
(ICU=Intensive Care Unit)

1. Less than 300 free intensive care units / beds are
available on a population of 17 million. The rest are
already occupied, in total there are 1150 ICU units.

We're moving to total isolation, to stop any further
spreading beyond those already infected. This isn't
a good long-term solution, and new spreading centers
will start once we relax the isolation. But what we

Indeed. At the moment the only game in town is to try and manage the
infection growth rate and wait for herd immunity to develop slowly
without completely saturating the intensive care units.

It will be interesting to see how long it is before California's health
system gets completely overwhelmed. They are running blind since US
virus testing is such a complete mess. About a week behind the UK on
average and perhaps 3 weeks behind London where things are now tricky.

haven't been hearing much about is new therapeutics,
custom-designed to help severely-compromised Covid-19
victims survive, without the use of ICU beds. Once we
have that, we can safely cease the isolation approach.
The therapeutics will be easier to manufacture, and
only relatively-small quantities will be required,
compared to a vaccine, which must be population-wide.
There are 50 companies working on therapeutics, and
several claim to already have working results.

Most them are pump and dump stock scams with no reality.

Aided and abetted by Trump giving them free publicity.

That's BS. Trump mentioned three drugs. Two of them are tested and
approved for malaria, have been used for decades, 75 years,
The other is Remdesivir that was used on Ebola patients and it's made
by Gilead. None are pump and dump stock scams. All are being
used selectively and in trials around the world.

Much like that phantom blood testing start-up scam.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45418615

We might have a viable vaccine in 12 months time in sufficient
quantities to do something useful but by then it may be too late.

Which is why doctors were already using those drugs that Trump mentioned
selectively on patients.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 10:18:58 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 20/03/2020 14:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:46:30 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 00:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:56:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 12:40:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looks like chloroquine plus azithromycin knocks the Wu flu dead.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf
Hope it pans out on a large scale!

Me too, but there might be a political problem:

Why Hasn’t Tony Fauci Been at the Coronavirus Press Conferences?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/tony-fauci-at-coronavirus-press-conferences.html
Quoting...

One person who has expressed a more skeptical view of chloroquine is
task force member and immunologist Anthony Fauci, the veteran face of
the country’s response to disease outbreaks. But Fauci has not
appeared at a press conference since Tuesday, when Trump said he had
become a major television star.

Fauci for the past two days had been saying that chloroquine is not a
miracle cure and that we still need to determine its safety.

Speaking to Laura Ingraham on Fox News on Tuesday, Fauci said, "We
have to be careful, Laura, that we don’t assume something works based
on an anecdotal report that’s not controlled. And I refer specifically
to hydroxychloroquine. There’s a lot of buzz out there on the internet
on the social media about that."

On Wednesday, he reiterated this message in an interview with CNN’s
Chris Cuomo, saying he supported large-scale clinical trials but was
against "just throwing the drug out there, which is not a good idea."

We don't have enough people really ill from C19 to have large-scale
clinical trials. We already know the drug is safe, so it's unlikely to
do any harm. Get a dozen sick people to volunteer and see what
happens.

Some adventurous doctors should do that now. It's available and legal
to prescribe.


It is conceivable that you are smart at electronics, but you really
haven't the faintest clue about anything related to this virus, medical
procedures, drugs, testing, etc.

You, like a lot of people here, switch to insults when they can't make
sense.

I, and several others (especially Rick C) have made a lot of sense.
Your mind-numbing determined ignorance is impenetrable, however - it's
not worth the effort trying to get through that thick skull.

Google about double-blind testing and drug testing. If you are having
trouble, find a ten year old to help you.


If you were dying from a C19 infection, and were offered these drugs
now, before proper clinical trials were published and meta-analyzed,
would you take them?


Would I stand by my principles about what is good for the thousands and
millions coming after me, or would I desperately cling to any straw I
could find? I'd like to say I'd volunteer to be part of a trial, rather
than demanding the drugs, even though at least half the people on the
trial will get placebos. I can't tell you if I'd be brave enough for
that, however - probably not.

And that is /exactly/ why these decisions must be made by medical
authorities - with no influence from the patients, their relatives,
meddling ignorant politicians, or the doctors and medical staff treating
the patients who never get to know who gets the real drugs and who gets
the placebos. You need a cold, clinical, bureaucratic authority to say
"We will test these 100 patients with a double-blind test. 50 will
receive the drug. 50 will receive a placebo. If the drug works, some
of these 50 placebo patients will die even though the drug could have
saved them. This is a sacrifice humanity must make to gain the
knowledge to save thousands or millions afterwards".

Geez, even before this in the USA any doctor can use an approved drug
off label, ie for a purpose other than which it was approved for,
at their own discretion. And as we speak, that is going on with
chloroquine. It is a deadly pandemic you know.

 

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 07:09:02 -0700 (PDT), Whoey Louie
<trader4@optonline.net> wrote:

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 8:32:16 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 20/03/2020 02:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

News:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus

Wow, if it works DT will be a hero.


That sad thing is, there will be a large number of naďve and ignorant
Americans who will think he /is/ a hero here. All he has done is got
things completely wrong, contradicting his expert staff at every step
(including here), and making random decisions that he thinks will make
the stock market go up. But like a stopped clock, he occasionally gets
something right by luck - and his drolling zombie followers think he is
a genius for his few successes, while all his uncountable mistakes are
just a Democrat / media conspiracy.

Obviously I hope the drugs here work - but even if they do, Trump is
doing more harm than good as he screws up American doctors' ability to
test them properly.

He is no hero - he is a narcissistic buffoon, whose single skill (and
he's /really/ good at this one) is blowing his own trumpet.

+1

Did you see Trump making a big deal of invoking the Defense Production
Act? It allows the feds to direct companies output to where they need
it to go, to allocate, ration, take control of the whole supply chain
for a product to remove roadblocks, to spin up other companies to
build critical products, etc. It's how Ford went from building cars
to building bombers. Trump should have done it weeks ago, but it's
a very good thing, right? A few hours later he tweeted that he only
invoked it in case it's needed to combat the Chinese virus later in
a worst case scenario and hopefully that won't be necessary.

If that is not the very definition of an incompetent moron, IDK
what is.

When the entire country is on lockdown, and nobody is working, he may
have to take over the entire food chain to keep us alive.

California is going to be interesting.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
"Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

 

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 15:06:51 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 14:22, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:32:11 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 02:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

News:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus

Wow, if it works DT will be a hero.


That sad thing is, there will be a large number of naďve and ignorant
Americans who will think he /is/ a hero here. All he has done is got
things completely wrong, contradicting his expert staff at every step
(including here), and making random decisions that he thinks will make
the stock market go up. But like a stopped clock, he occasionally gets
something right by luck - and his drolling zombie followers think he is
a genius for his few successes, while all his uncountable mistakes are
just a Democrat / media conspiracy.

Obviously I hope the drugs here work - but even if they do, Trump is
doing more harm than good as he screws up American doctors' ability to
test them properly.

The drugs are available and known to be safe. If some people are
dying, it may save lives to use them now. If it works, use them
widely. If "testing properly" means years of careful clinical trials
and peer-reviewed papers, delay years until the virus has burned out,
people will die. What DT says is his sensible: go for it now and see
what happens.

No doubt some people will, and we will see if these drugs help.

Let me repeat - you haven't a clue how drug testing works.
Regurgitating shite from Trump does nothing but prove your ignorance and
naďvety.

Let me repeat: people who don't want to consider ideas often resort to
insults.

I can appreciate that it all /sounds/ logical to just give people the
drugs and see what happens. But perhaps if you rub a couple of brain
cells together, you'll realise what a bad idea it is.

Tell us why.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
"Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 8:46:34 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 20/03/2020 00:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:56:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 12:40:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looks like chloroquine plus azithromycin knocks the Wu flu dead.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf
Hope it pans out on a large scale!

Me too, but there might be a political problem:

Why Hasn’t Tony Fauci Been at the Coronavirus Press Conferences?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/tony-fauci-at-coronavirus-press-conferences.html
Quoting...

One person who has expressed a more skeptical view of chloroquine is
task force member and immunologist Anthony Fauci, the veteran face of
the country’s response to disease outbreaks. But Fauci has not
appeared at a press conference since Tuesday, when Trump said he had
become a major television star.

Fauci for the past two days had been saying that chloroquine is not a
miracle cure and that we still need to determine its safety.

Speaking to Laura Ingraham on Fox News on Tuesday, Fauci said, "We
have to be careful, Laura, that we don’t assume something works based
on an anecdotal report that’s not controlled. And I refer specifically
to hydroxychloroquine. There’s a lot of buzz out there on the internet
on the social media about that."

On Wednesday, he reiterated this message in an interview with CNN’s
Chris Cuomo, saying he supported large-scale clinical trials but was
against "just throwing the drug out there, which is not a good idea."

We don't have enough people really ill from C19 to have large-scale
clinical trials. We already know the drug is safe, so it's unlikely to
do any harm. Get a dozen sick people to volunteer and see what
happens.

Some adventurous doctors should do that now. It's available and legal
to prescribe.


It is conceivable that you are smart at electronics, but you really
haven't the faintest clue about anything related to this virus, medical
procedures, drugs, testing, etc.

But that is exactly what we are doing. The first Covid patient in the
US was given Remdesivir, for example. And now we are starting to do that
with Chloroquine. Many other countries are doing exactly that too and
we are learning from it. What he's suggesting is't wrong or unusual.

You are mostly harmless, in that no one takes you seriously in this
discussion - you are a target of ridicule, not a source of information.
The problem is you represent an unpleasantly large proportion of people
who are equally ignorant, thoughtless and selfish, with an equally
overinflated idea of their own competence. And the biggest problem the
USA faces is that they are lead by the prime example of this kind of
determined, paranoid idiocy.

So now any American doctors trying to do the right thing in testing
drugs on this virus are going to be pressured on one side by half-wit
politicians whose only concern is trying to look good on television, and
desperate relatives on the other side who want their sick relative cured
and don't care about anyone else.

Trump as usual was misleading, bumbling, that's for sure. Probably worst
of all was him minimizing any risks, saying that we know Chloroquine won't
kill anyone.

 

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:46:30 +0100, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 00:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:56:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 12:40:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looks like chloroquine plus azithromycin knocks the Wu flu dead.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf
Hope it pans out on a large scale!

Me too, but there might be a political problem:

Why Hasn’t Tony Fauci Been at the Coronavirus Press Conferences?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/tony-fauci-at-coronavirus-press-conferences.html
Quoting...

One person who has expressed a more skeptical view of chloroquine is
task force member and immunologist Anthony Fauci, the veteran face of
the country’s response to disease outbreaks. But Fauci has not
appeared at a press conference since Tuesday, when Trump said he had
become a major television star.

Fauci for the past two days had been saying that chloroquine is not a
miracle cure and that we still need to determine its safety.

Speaking to Laura Ingraham on Fox News on Tuesday, Fauci said, "We
have to be careful, Laura, that we don’t assume something works based
on an anecdotal report that’s not controlled. And I refer specifically
to hydroxychloroquine. There’s a lot of buzz out there on the internet
on the social media about that."

On Wednesday, he reiterated this message in an interview with CNN’s
Chris Cuomo, saying he supported large-scale clinical trials but was
against "just throwing the drug out there, which is not a good idea."

We don't have enough people really ill from C19 to have large-scale
clinical trials. We already know the drug is safe, so it's unlikely to
do any harm. Get a dozen sick people to volunteer and see what
happens.

Some adventurous doctors should do that now. It's available and legal
to prescribe.


It is conceivable that you are smart at electronics, but you really
haven't the faintest clue about anything related to this virus, medical
procedures, drugs, testing, etc.

You, like a lot of people here, switch to insults when they can't make
sense.

If these drugs work, and are unlikely to cause harm, why not
administer them now, to a goodly number of gravely ill people, and see
what happens. If it helps, we could be using these common drugs in
mass, within a month, and save lives.

Is it better to conduct careful clinical trials for a couple of years?

Nobody understands how this virus actually works, or why the drugs may
help. So try things and see what saves lives.

You are mostly harmless, in that no one takes you seriously in this
discussion - you are a target of ridicule, not a source of information.

I'm a engineer. Signals and systems and dynamics and measurement and
causality are my life. As in figuring out what works and doing it.

The problem is you represent an unpleasantly large proportion of people
who are equally ignorant, thoughtless and selfish, with an equally
overinflated idea of their own competence. And the biggest problem the
USA faces is that they are lead by the prime example of this kind of
determined, paranoid idiocy.

So now any American doctors trying to do the right thing in testing
drugs on this virus are going to be pressured on one side by half-wit
politicians whose only concern is trying to look good on television, and
desperate relatives on the other side who want their sick relative cured
and don't care about anyone else.

I'd want my sick relative cured. I'd take those drugs if I got
seriously sick with this virus, which is a parts-per-million
probability just now.

If you were dying from a C19 infection, and were offered these drugs
now, before proper clinical trials were published and meta-analyzed,
would you take them?



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

The cork popped merrily, and Lord Peter rose to his feet.
"Bunter", he said, "I give you a toast. The triumph of Instinct over Reason"

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 12:22:15 AM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:32:11 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 02:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

News:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus

Wow, if it works DT will be a hero.

That sad thing is, there will be a large number of naĂŻve and ignorant
Americans who will think he /is/ a hero here. All he has done is got
things completely wrong, contradicting his expert staff at every step
(including here), and making random decisions that he thinks will make
the stock market go up. But like a stopped clock, he occasionally gets
something right by luck - and his drolling zombie followers think he is
a genius for his few successes, while all his uncountable mistakes are
just a Democrat / media conspiracy.

Obviously I hope the drugs here work - but even if they do, Trump is
doing more harm than good as he screws up American doctors' ability to
test them properly.

The drugs are available and known to be safe.

In John Larkin's ever-so-well-informed opinion.

> If some people are dying, it may save lives to use them now.

Or kill them more rapidly.

> If it works, use them widely. If "testing properly" means years of careful clinical trials and peer-reviewed papers, delay years until the virus has burned out, people will die.

Testing properly kills people from time to time. Not every drug works the same way in different patients.

> What DT says is his sensible: go for it now and see what happens.

It's pig-ignorant dabbling in an area that he knows very little about. He's made a habit of that. It isn't a virtue.

> No doubt some people will, and we will see if these drugs help.

Or see if they kill people who might otherwise have survived.

He is no hero - he is a narcissistic buffoon, whose single skill (and
he's /really/ good at this one) is blowing his own trumpet.

His other rare skills include lack of caution and common sense.

Those aren't skills, and they aren't rare. Any fool can demonstrate them, and quite intelligent people can acquire them by drinking more than they ought to.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 5:55:51 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 19/03/2020 23:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 6:06:23 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 19/03/2020 22:37, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 4:57:12 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill
wrote:
Rick C wrote...

Phil Hobbs wrote:

According to the googledocs paper, it works by preventing
the virus from acidifying the cytoplasm in order to break
host proteins down into amino acids to build more viruses.
10 micromolar solution suppresses virus growth completely.

I hope this does pan out.

It's safe to take, right? Doctors are free to prescribe it
off-label, are they not? For very sick patients, find out
very quickly if it works.

That's not how things work. Giving patients drugs does not tell
you if they work - that's why drug testing is so complicated with
double-blind tests, comparative studies, etc. And that is why
laymen - like Trump - should not be making public statements about
drug usage or testing.

Yeah, that's what you do when a drug company is bringing a drug to
market and there is no rush other than for profits. In this
situation we can take a few shortcuts and that study seems pretty
clear. It will be repeated by others I'm sure and the drug companies
are ramping up production. But still, we need doses for millions of
people and the longer it takes the more people who will need to be
dosed. It's hard to ramp up exponentially.


You can certainly take /some/ shortcuts in a situation like this, but
you don't skimp on the real test, especially the double-blind tests.
They are vital.

Drug companies don't do the extensive testing for fun or profit, they do
it because they are required to do it - and they are required to do it,
because it is important.

Because economic concerns are minor here, it should be possible to ramp
up production (or at least, potential for production) in parallel with
the essential testing of the drug. If it turns out that the drug works
as well as hoped, roll-out can start much faster. If it doesn't work
well (or something better replaces it), sell the extra cheap to
countries with malaria.


Not very many docs will prescribe such a drug. You don't know
it won't hurt a patient with this disease. They are saying
ibuprofen is contraindicated for this disease. The WHO is
backing away from that now, but the point is with a new disease
we don't know the effects of a drug. We have testing protocols
specifically to keep people safe.

Chloroquine may also have bad side effects for ICU corona
patients. Hydroxychloroquine seems better, but the main use looks
to be for non-ICU hospital patients.

Where did you read that in the paper?


I've read dozens of web articles about this recently - I don't remember
exactly where. A quick check on Wikipedia (which is not always accurate
or up-to-date, but is usually quite good and unbiased - and easier to
remember than other references!) says that chloroquine may be a problem
for people with heart disease or diabetes. That is not an exact match
for corona patients in ICU, but there's a fair overlap.
Hydroxychloroquine seems to have less side effects and also be more
effective against the virus. But the medical research here is poor as
yet - it all needs good testing.


Knowing the drug is safe for other patients certainly speeds up
safety testing, but it does not eliminate it.

If we treat patients before they need to be in the ICU all the
better, a win-win.


Yes.


More importantly, if we do what we are supposed to do and not
spread this disease, we could be rid of it before any medicines
are available.

The big trouble is that elimination that way is very unlikely.
Countries might manage to get it close to zero spread while they
are on lockdown, but once things are opened again, there will be
new outbreaks.

Yeah, but now that we know about it we will respond much more quickly
and isolate any new infections. Once it is eliminated, it is
eliminated. We only need to worry about being brought in from
elsewhere.


That's not what it means to "eliminate" a virus. Small pox is
eliminated - /no one/ has it, and to the best of our knowledge, there
are no reservoirs in animals.

Coronoa virus will not be eliminated in humans until there are no humans
who have it. Even then, it may not be eliminated entirely if it is
still found in animals that are likely to transmit it to humans.

You can eliminate a virus like this in a particular area for a
particular time, but it is only temporary. If it is done by the disease
fading out due to lockdowns (i.e., we get the spreading factor below 1
and wait long enough), you can be confident that outbreaks /will/ occur
again - no country will keep their lockdowns in place until every other
country is virus free. If you eliminate (or mostly eliminate) the virus
with vaccines, then outbreaks will not occur because they can't get started.

You are absolutely right that after a partial elimination from
lockdowns, people bringing in the virus from outside would be the main
concern. And countries could respond much quicker now that they know
what they are looking for, and how to deal with it - and presumably by
then they will have plenty of test kits. It would, however, mean a huge
imposition on travel (not nearly as much as with current lockdowns
around the world, but very different from what we are used to). And
even with good testing, we'll see airports closed down just because
someone arrives with a cold.


Lockdowns, therapeutic medicine, and vaccines - all of these are needed
to deal with this thing well. And it won't be properly over until a
sizeable proportion of the world is vaccinated.



It has spread too far for containment to eliminate it.

That is not logical.

Containment works when there a few people who have a disease, and you
can track each one and their movements. We are /well/ beyond that.
Hopefully lockdowns and containment measures will contain it - but they
won't eliminate it.

(Don't get me wrong here - containment is far and away the most
important measure at the moment, and could manage to keep the death toll
in the thousands rather than the millions. But containment is very
disruptive, and while it might be relaxed a bit later, we will not get
back to the freedom of movement and lifestyle that we had before until a
vaccine is in place.)



If we can't get a vaccine, countries are going to have to be ready
for quick lockdowns every time a new outbreak flares up. Still,
careful openness with lots of testing at borders and the risk of
new lockdowns would be a lot better than continued lockdown for
many months or years.

We already do this for any number of diseases. In the process we
have essentially removed them from existence in many countries. This
one spreads more rapidly, but that means we need travel
restrictions.

It was only a couple of weeks ago people were still going out on
cruise ships knowing there was a risk of this virus! We will have
learned a lesson from this virus.


I hope you are right. It's amazing how little some people have learned
so far, however.

+1 to all that.

 

[David Brown]

On 20/03/2020 14:22, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:32:11 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 02:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

News:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus

Wow, if it works DT will be a hero.


That sad thing is, there will be a large number of naĂŻve and ignorant
Americans who will think he /is/ a hero here. All he has done is got
things completely wrong, contradicting his expert staff at every step
(including here), and making random decisions that he thinks will make
the stock market go up. But like a stopped clock, he occasionally gets
something right by luck - and his drolling zombie followers think he is
a genius for his few successes, while all his uncountable mistakes are
just a Democrat / media conspiracy.

Obviously I hope the drugs here work - but even if they do, Trump is
doing more harm than good as he screws up American doctors' ability to
test them properly.

The drugs are available and known to be safe. If some people are
dying, it may save lives to use them now. If it works, use them
widely. If "testing properly" means years of careful clinical trials
and peer-reviewed papers, delay years until the virus has burned out,
people will die. What DT says is his sensible: go for it now and see
what happens.

No doubt some people will, and we will see if these drugs help.

Let me repeat - you haven't a clue how drug testing works.
Regurgitating shite from Trump does nothing but prove your ignorance and
naĂŻvety.

I can appreciate that it all /sounds/ logical to just give people the
drugs and see what happens. But perhaps if you rub a couple of brain
cells together, you'll realise what a bad idea it is.

He is no hero - he is a narcissistic buffoon, whose single skill (and
he's /really/ good at this one) is blowing his own trumpet.

His other rare skills include lack of caution and common sense.

It is true - he /does/ have an unusual lack of common sense. I wouldn't
call that a skill, however.

And you are also right that he has an astounding lack of caution - he
just opens his mouth and lets his belly rumble, in the bizarre belief
that he is an expert on everything. Again, that is not a skill.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 8:32:16 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 20/03/2020 02:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

News:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-fda-experimental-drugs-coronavirus

Wow, if it works DT will be a hero.


That sad thing is, there will be a large number of naĂŻve and ignorant
Americans who will think he /is/ a hero here. All he has done is got
things completely wrong, contradicting his expert staff at every step
(including here), and making random decisions that he thinks will make
the stock market go up. But like a stopped clock, he occasionally gets
something right by luck - and his drolling zombie followers think he is
a genius for his few successes, while all his uncountable mistakes are
just a Democrat / media conspiracy.

Obviously I hope the drugs here work - but even if they do, Trump is
doing more harm than good as he screws up American doctors' ability to
test them properly.

He is no hero - he is a narcissistic buffoon, whose single skill (and
he's /really/ good at this one) is blowing his own trumpet.

+1

Did you see Trump making a big deal of invoking the Defense Production
Act? It allows the feds to direct companies output to where they need
it to go, to allocate, ration, take control of the whole supply chain
for a product to remove roadblocks, to spin up other companies to
build critical products, etc. It's how Ford went from building cars
to building bombers. Trump should have done it weeks ago, but it's
a very good thing, right? A few hours later he tweeted that he only
invoked it in case it's needed to combat the Chinese virus later in
a worst case scenario and hopefully that won't be necessary.

If that is not the very definition of an incompetent moron, IDK
what is.

 

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 7:37:16 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 9:27:01 AM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 23:06:09 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

The big trouble is that elimination that way is very unlikely.
Countries might manage to get it close to zero spread while they are on
lockdown, but once things are opened again, there will be new outbreaks.

Small ones. A lock down in a confined area should be all that is necessary to contain each one.

There will be reservoirs of active viruses here and there for a long
time. A group of, say, 200 people in some small town could pass it
around for many incubation periods. Somebody could make a bad batch of
ice cubes and freeze them for months or something.

If it will grow exponentially in a suceptible population, it would
just take one seed to start it back up. We can't lock down for years,
or people would starve.

You only have to impose lock downs where there has been a new outbreak, and we should have an effective vaccine within a year. Eighteen months if none of the new approaches actually works.

There's no such thing as a vaccine for a brand new virus being ready in that short of a time. Your statement is pure misinformation.
Indians have taken to a folk-cure of bathing in liquid cow manure. Why don't you try that. It may be a placebo effect.
https://nypost.com/video/cow-poop-bath-is-yet-another-coronavirus-cure/
You may laugh at these people as being primitive, but your vaccine fantasy is the exact same thing.

snip

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 10:45:56 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 12:42:37 PM UTC+11, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 9:16:40 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 8:29:09 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-19 20:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:43:03 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-19 19:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:35:42 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-19 16:56, Winfield Hill wrote:
Rick C wrote...

Phil Hobbs wrote:

snip

I told you it was growing exponentially over a month ago when
you said it was being controlled.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Over a month ago would have been before the 20th February 2020.

If you look at the logarithmic version of the US case number graph it hits the axis on the 22nd February. In reality there were 35 cases by that date, so you didn't have enough numbers to justify that assertion rationally.

Sadly, you don't think clearly enough for your ravings to be taken as seriously as you'd like.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

You just can't stand the truth. I was right.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 10:45:56 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Friday, March 20, 2020 at 12:42:37 PM UTC+11, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 9:16:40 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 8:29:09 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-19 20:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:43:03 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-19 19:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:35:42 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-19 16:56, Winfield Hill wrote:
Rick C wrote...

Phil Hobbs wrote:

snip

I told you it was growing exponentially over a month ago when
you said it was being controlled.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Over a month ago would have been before the 20th February 2020.

If you look at the logarithmic version of the US case number graph it hits the axis on the 22nd February. In reality there were 35 cases by that date, so you didn't have enough numbers to justify that assertion rationally.

Sadly, you don't think clearly enough for your ravings to be taken as seriously as you'd like.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Oh, and I was not talking about the US when I told you it
was growing exponentially either, stupid, I was talking
about the world, which at that point was primarily China.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 11:06:16 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 9:42:37 PM UTC-4, Whoey Louie wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 9:16:40 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 8:29:09 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 2020-03-19 20:08, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:43:03 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-19 19:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:35:42 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-03-19 16:56, Winfield Hill wrote:
Rick C wrote...

Phil Hobbs wrote:

According to the googledocs paper, it works by preventing
the virus from acidifying the cytoplasm in order to break
host proteins down into amino acids to build more viruses.
10 micromolar solution suppresses virus growth completely.

I hope this does pan out.

It's safe to take, right? Doctors are free to prescribe it
off-label, are they not? For very sick patients, find out
very quickly if it works.



Chloroquine is even safe for pregnant women and nursing mothers. AFAICT
the only side effect is retinopathy for some people who have been given
over _400_grams_ of the stuff over several years.

The ideal strategy would be to let commerce resume, let susceptable
people get it and become immune, let it burn itself out, and treat the
minority of people who are in serious danger.

Especially if there's a good, widely-available treatment for the small
minority of younger people who get into real trouble. Otherwise the
moral question is a bit more nuanced, I think.

Right. Is the life of an otherwise vigorous 20-year-old any more
valuable than the life of a sick and frail 85 yo? Is any life worth a
few billion dollars?



Some social-distancing propaganda would help a bit if the hospitals do
indeed get overloaded.

That would be a bit late of course, given the longish delay between
exposure and severe illness. A bit of modelling would help folks decide
when to do that, perhaps.

Propaganda is cheap, so do it now. Make companies put up signs and
stuff. Wipe the tables and handrails with bleach.

A good idea anyway. I have a spray bottle with diluted bleach on my desk.


I still don't see how this is much different from a mild seasonal flu.
We've never panicked like this or suggested extreme measures before,
in years when flu killed hundreds of times more people.

AFAICT the difference is the apparent huge mortality rate of the Chinese
epidemic. Based on the running metric

deaths
mortality = -------------------
deaths + recoveries

at one point Wuhan was indicating 20% or so--Black Death levels.
Seasonal influenza isn't reported that way.

Massive overestimates of mortality are common when only the seriously
ill are counted.

The issue isn't really the mortality rate. The issue is the number of deaths we can expect. The mortality rate is just a way of calculating the number.

China has has 3,200 people die before they got the infection under control. I think ultimately they did a good job in spite of a poor start. Italy has already surpassed them in a country a fraction of the size.

The fact that the number for mortality rate varies depending on how many infected are not counted because they don't have strong symptoms and don't seek medical help is not the issue. A significant number of people will die from this disease if we don't take it seriously. That's the issue. Comparing it to the "seasonal flu" or the Spanish flu or falling off the roof while cleaning the flu means nothing. If we don't take this disease seriously many people will die. It's that simple.

Depends what the definition of "many people" is. If it's no worse
that a bad flu season or maybe 2X that, it would be nuts to have
a depression while trying to avoid it. On the other hand if it;s
500K, 2 mil people then that is something that we have to avoid.
Given what we're seeing, I'm confident that if we don't flatten
the curve, the hospitals will be quickly overloaded and we will
have a real disaster. The question is how long this will persist,
how long we have to remain hunkered down and how we avoid a
depression. We are clearly not doing the China model, so we
aren't going to see it put down like they have.





JL just likes to mentally masturbate and minimize people who do take this seriously. Unlike the other issues he chooses to remain ignorant of, this one is coming at breakneck speed and will be the only issue anyone talks about in this country in two weeks.

We're there now.

No one will care about the economy or if they even have jobs when hospitals are incapacitated by the influx of patients.

I'm hoping I'm wrong and the social distancing works and people working from home works and any of the other measures works to slow the progression of this disease. But clearly even people who otherwise seem to be highly intelligent are incapable of understanding the concept of exponential growth.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I told you it was growing exponentially over a month ago when
you said it was being controlled.

A month ago was the literal beginning of CV19 showing up in the US. There were 15 cases reported for six days in a row and if I recall some of those were people brought back from a cruise ship.

Are you just like Trump? At the time I told you that it was
growing, out of control, it was still in China.

So you were able to discern infections across the country that no one else could see? Why don't you hire yourself out as a walking CV19 test kit?

It was spreading around the world through travelers, but I had hopes that our government was actually not too incompetent to have test kits available and would test everyone who might have the disease. I was wrong about that.

It's naive to think that ever would have been able to contain it.




We didn't test anyone who we didn't think had exposure. So there were people who had the disease without symptoms that got in and started community spreading. There was zero evidence of that in the data at that time.

No shit Sherlock, but it was clear that it was out of control
in China and spreading.



Even the CDC's data referring back to date of infection doesn't show the disease growing in the US until about that time which is based on information gathered up to 14 days after infection.

I guess you are prescient? Doesn't matter. I didn't say it wasn't here and spreading. I may have said the numbers didn't indicate it though which they didn't at the time.

You said China had it under control, it was being eliminated.
Sounds like what Trump thought too.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 20/03/2020 14:52, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:46:30 +0100, David Brown
david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

On 20/03/2020 00:19, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:56:58 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Mar 2020 12:40:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

Looks like chloroquine plus azithromycin knocks the Wu flu dead.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTi-g18ftNZUMRAj2SwRPodtscFio7bJ7GdNgbJAGbdfF67WuRJB3ZsidgpidB2eocFHAVjIL-7deJ7/pub
https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Hydroxychloroquine_final_DOI_IJAA.pdf
Hope it pans out on a large scale!

Me too, but there might be a political problem:

Why Hasn’t Tony Fauci Been at the Coronavirus Press Conferences?
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/03/tony-fauci-at-coronavirus-press-conferences.html
Quoting...

One person who has expressed a more skeptical view of chloroquine is
task force member and immunologist Anthony Fauci, the veteran face of
the country’s response to disease outbreaks. But Fauci has not
appeared at a press conference since Tuesday, when Trump said he had
become a major television star.

Fauci for the past two days had been saying that chloroquine is not a
miracle cure and that we still need to determine its safety.

Speaking to Laura Ingraham on Fox News on Tuesday, Fauci said, "We
have to be careful, Laura, that we don’t assume something works based
on an anecdotal report that’s not controlled. And I refer specifically
to hydroxychloroquine. There’s a lot of buzz out there on the internet
on the social media about that."

On Wednesday, he reiterated this message in an interview with CNN’s
Chris Cuomo, saying he supported large-scale clinical trials but was
against "just throwing the drug out there, which is not a good idea."

We don't have enough people really ill from C19 to have large-scale
clinical trials. We already know the drug is safe, so it's unlikely to
do any harm. Get a dozen sick people to volunteer and see what
happens.

Some adventurous doctors should do that now. It's available and legal
to prescribe.


It is conceivable that you are smart at electronics, but you really
haven't the faintest clue about anything related to this virus, medical
procedures, drugs, testing, etc.

You, like a lot of people here, switch to insults when they can't make
sense.

I, and several others (especially Rick C) have made a lot of sense.
Your mind-numbing determined ignorance is impenetrable, however - it's
not worth the effort trying to get through that thick skull.

Google about double-blind testing and drug testing. If you are having
trouble, find a ten year old to help you.

If you were dying from a C19 infection, and were offered these drugs
now, before proper clinical trials were published and meta-analyzed,
would you take them?

Would I stand by my principles about what is good for the thousands and
millions coming after me, or would I desperately cling to any straw I
could find? I'd like to say I'd volunteer to be part of a trial, rather
than demanding the drugs, even though at least half the people on the
trial will get placebos. I can't tell you if I'd be brave enough for
that, however - probably not.

And that is /exactly/ why these decisions must be made by medical
authorities - with no influence from the patients, their relatives,
meddling ignorant politicians, or the doctors and medical staff treating
the patients who never get to know who gets the real drugs and who gets
the placebos. You need a cold, clinical, bureaucratic authority to say
"We will test these 100 patients with a double-blind test. 50 will
receive the drug. 50 will receive a placebo. If the drug works, some
of these 50 placebo patients will die even though the drug could have
saved them. This is a sacrifice humanity must make to gain the
knowledge to save thousands or millions afterwards".