The Future Of Solar Power

[Sylvia Else]

kreed wrote:

On Oct 15, 5:26 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Dyna Soar wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
More of her usual bullshit snipped...
According to the BOM, today's anticipated maximum temperature in Perth
is 27. They also say it will be fine, so presumably the sun will be
shining. At a maximum of 27, there will not be a huge airconditioning
load. Most people won't even turn it on.
Bloody hell it that the best you can do? Aristotle knew more than you. "One
swallow does not a summer make."
Well, I provided a link to temperatures through the year, but you chose
not to understand it.



I'm just back from having lunch at the local pub (it's 2:30 ish here). Had
a chat to the publican about the air-conditioning. It's been running on
cooling since he opened this morning.
And even more so tomorrow and Saturday when it's forecast to be 29 and 34
respectively.
And that's a huge airconditioning load because....?

Sylvia

Think of all the heat producing stuff in a pub, refrigeration units,
lots of people, probably a kitchen running, usually have lots of
plasmas these days, especially for the TAB gear, probably several
PC's ..........
Air con would be inefficient there compared to a home as people are
always coming in and out, constantly opening doors.

You would probably need to turn on the air con even when it isn't that
hot outside, just to get rid of all the electrically generated heat
inside.

This would apply to just about any commercial premises, shopping
centres etc.

That's probably true. But it't not a function of whether the sun is
shining of not. The premise of this subthread was that there is a strong
correlation between the sun shining and there being a huge air
conditioning load to draw the power generated by solar power generators.
I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge airconditioning load
is a strong predictor of the sun shining, the reverse is not true; solar
power generators will produce power at times when it is not needed for
air conditioning. That has significant implications for the econmics of
solar power because it means that either the solar power generators are
turned off in the absence of a high air conditioning load, or other
generating capacity is, both of which represent an economic inefficiency.

Sylvia.

 

[Davo]

Sylvia Else wrote:

kreed wrote:
On Oct 15, 5:26 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Dyna Soar wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
More of her usual bullshit snipped...
According to the BOM, today's anticipated maximum temperature in Perth
is 27. They also say it will be fine, so presumably the sun will be
shining. At a maximum of 27, there will not be a huge airconditioning
load. Most people won't even turn it on.
Bloody hell it that the best you can do? Aristotle knew more than
you. "One
swallow does not a summer make."
Well, I provided a link to temperatures through the year, but you chose
not to understand it.



I'm just back from having lunch at the local pub (it's 2:30 ish
here). Had
a chat to the publican about the air-conditioning. It's been
running on
cooling since he opened this morning.
And even more so tomorrow and Saturday when it's forecast to be 29
and 34
respectively.
And that's a huge airconditioning load because....?

Sylvia

Think of all the heat producing stuff in a pub, refrigeration units,
lots of people, probably a kitchen running, usually have lots of
plasmas these days, especially for the TAB gear, probably several
PC's ..........
Air con would be inefficient there compared to a home as people are
always coming in and out, constantly opening doors.

You would probably need to turn on the air con even when it isn't that
hot outside, just to get rid of all the electrically generated heat
inside.

This would apply to just about any commercial premises, shopping
centres etc.


That's probably true. But it't not a function of whether the sun is
shining of not. The premise of this subthread was that there is a strong
correlation between the sun shining and there being a huge air
conditioning load to draw the power generated by solar power generators.
I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge airconditioning load
is a strong predictor of the sun shining, the reverse is not true; solar
power generators will produce power at times when it is not needed for
air conditioning. That has significant implications for the econmics of
solar power because it means that either the solar power generators are
turned off in the absence of a high air conditioning load, or other
generating capacity is, both of which represent an economic inefficiency.

Sylvia.

There's a misunderstanding here. Turning off base load generators is
inefficient but turning off peak load generators, which usually run on
gas or oil, is not. I can tell you that oil is extremely expensive to
run, and in Western Australia there are limitations to how much gas you
can get down the pipeline, so you can't run gas on high loads anyway.
Perth is expecting 35 degrees today and it's not even summer yet. Perth
has a hot, dry climate and air conditioners are used extensively. I've
told you in the past the peak loads are in Perth summer are proportional
to the temperature but you don't listen.

 

[terryc]

On Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:31:24 +1000, Mr.T wrote:

"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xHMAm.2731$cL1.2364@newsfe20.iad...
A few extra bucks to track rogue asteroids and comets might be well
worth our while.

Since we can do nothing if we find one, why bother?

Great opportunity to show off all that space weaponry, that we don't have
have <wink, wink> to deter an alien invasion.

Think of the business opportunities. If we blow it into millions of
pieces, that spreads the destruction around boosting GDP in countries
impacted.

 

[terryc]

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:09:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:

I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge airconditioning load
is a strong predictor of the sun shining,

Wow, so that is what makes the sun shine.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Davo wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
kreed wrote:
On Oct 15, 5:26 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.at.this.address> wrote:
Dyna Soar wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
More of her usual bullshit snipped...
According to the BOM, today's anticipated maximum temperature in
Perth
is 27. They also say it will be fine, so presumably the sun will be
shining. At a maximum of 27, there will not be a huge airconditioning
load. Most people won't even turn it on.
Bloody hell it that the best you can do? Aristotle knew more than
you. "One
swallow does not a summer make."
Well, I provided a link to temperatures through the year, but you chose
not to understand it.



I'm just back from having lunch at the local pub (it's 2:30 ish
here). Had
a chat to the publican about the air-conditioning. It's been
running on
cooling since he opened this morning.
And even more so tomorrow and Saturday when it's forecast to be 29
and 34
respectively.
And that's a huge airconditioning load because....?

Sylvia

Think of all the heat producing stuff in a pub, refrigeration units,
lots of people, probably a kitchen running, usually have lots of
plasmas these days, especially for the TAB gear, probably several
PC's ..........
Air con would be inefficient there compared to a home as people are
always coming in and out, constantly opening doors.

You would probably need to turn on the air con even when it isn't that
hot outside, just to get rid of all the electrically generated heat
inside.

This would apply to just about any commercial premises, shopping
centres etc.


That's probably true. But it't not a function of whether the sun is
shining of not. The premise of this subthread was that there is a
strong correlation between the sun shining and there being a huge air
conditioning load to draw the power generated by solar power
generators. I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge
airconditioning load is a strong predictor of the sun shining, the
reverse is not true; solar power generators will produce power at
times when it is not needed for air conditioning. That has significant
implications for the econmics of solar power because it means that
either the solar power generators are turned off in the absence of a
high air conditioning load, or other generating capacity is, both of
which represent an economic inefficiency.

Sylvia.

There's a misunderstanding here. Turning off base load generators is
inefficient but turning off peak load generators, which usually run on
gas or oil, is not. I can tell you that oil is extremely expensive to
run, and in Western Australia there are limitations to how much gas you
can get down the pipeline, so you can't run gas on high loads anyway.
Perth is expecting 35 degrees today and it's not even summer yet. Perth
has a hot, dry climate and air conditioners are used extensively. I've
told you in the past the peak loads are in Perth summer are proportional
to the temperature but you don't listen.

I don't know why you're twisting this. The discussion isn't about
whether airconditioning load is a function of temperature. Of course it
is. It's about whether it's sufficiently correlated to the presence of
sunshine.

The fact of the matter is that the sun is frequently shining when other
environmental factors are keeping the temperature down. At those times,
the output from solar power generators would not be required to support
airconditioning loads.

As for the ineffeciencies of turning off generators, you appear not to
understand the economics. Power generations has two basic cost inputs -
capital, and operational. The latter is a function of how much the
generator is run, but the former is purely a function of how much it
cost to build, and is incurred regardless of whether the generator is
running or not. Since people don't get charged for power they're not
using, the capital cost has to be spread across the users of the power
that's actually generated. It's the balance between these two cost
inputs that dictates what kind of generator is used. Generators that run
continuously run on coal because although these generators cost a lot to
build, their fuel is relatively cheap. Generators that run part time use
other fuels because although the fuel costs more, the generators
themselves cost less.

But the economics still get undermined when someone builds a solar power
generator that produces power only when the sun shines, and where that
power is not needed exactly because the sun is shining.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

terryc wrote:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:09:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:


I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge airconditioning load
is a strong predictor of the sun shining,

Wow, so that is what makes the sun shine.

Do you really think that prediction equals causation? That would explain
a lot.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Mr.T wrote:

"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:xHMAm.2731$cL1.2364@newsfe20.iad...
A few extra bucks to track rogue asteroids and comets might be well worth
our while.

Since we can do nothing if we find one, why bother?

MrT.

It's not really true that we can do nothing. A number of ideas have been
floated. For example, if you find an problem asteroid far enough in
advance of impact, simply painting it white may be all that's required
(it increases the solar radiation pressure, which produces a slight
change in orbit).

However, such 'close' shaves as we've had over the past few years have
been of the "what the hell was that?" category - we don't see it until
it has already missed.

Sylvia.

 

[L.A.T.]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0054f565$0$13524$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

terryc wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:09:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:


I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge airconditioning load
is a strong predictor of the sun shining,

Wow, so that is what makes the sun shine.

Do you really think that prediction equals causation? That would explain a
lot.

Sylvia.
You are wasting your time.

Your posts make sense, they are grammatically consistent, and you haven't
said fuck once.
Have you perhaps stumbled into the wrong newsgroup?

 

[kreed]

On Oct 14, 7:22 pm, "Dyna Soar"
<dynasoar..REMOVE..THI...@ozdebate.com> wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
Dyna Soar wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
Most of the time when the sun is shining, there is not a huge
airconditiong demand.
Come and live in Perth (or many other places), you'll soon realise
that comment of yours is a load of bullshit.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_009225.shtml
Perhaps the sun doesn't shine much in Perth.

Oh, but it does...

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/averages/tables/cw_009034.shtml

Perth's yearly average of daily hours of sunshine... 7.9
And for the summer months the average is over 10 hours a day

And just 'cause you can't get your act together searching Google, doesn't
stop your stupid remark from being bullshit. Also, you (conveniently)
ignored my "Perth (or many other places)"

Surely even a pedantic, never wrong know-all like you should realise that
it's hotter when the sun is shining. When it's hotter, more
air-conditioning is needed.
Your backpedal on this should be interesting...

Why don't you go somewhere, take your clothes off and scare the locals...
g

--
Dyna

All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged.

What if she is a really hot, sexy woman ?

 

[Mr.T]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0091765d$0$5069$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

And that's a huge airconditioning load because....?

Because too many people like it cooler in summer, and hotter in winter
than
what more reasonable people can live with unfortunately.

No, I meant why deos the running of a pub airconditioner during mild
weather represent a huge airconditioning load? The power requirements
for air conditioning are a function of temperature difference between
inside and outside.

As I said, IF you want 20 degC in Summer and 24degC in Winter, (rather than
vice versa as sane people would do), that temperature differential you refer
to is increased, as are the energy requirements. And yes I know people who
DO want it cooler in Summer than winter!
However IME most pubs prefer it a bit hotter in summer than shops for
example, people tend to drink more if they are warm.

MrT.

 

[terryc]

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:27:44 -0700, kreed wrote:

What if she is a really hot, sexy woman ?

So, what do you plan to do after the first 5 minutes?


<I just couldn't let the opportunity go begging>

 

[Mr.T]

"Sylvia Else" &lt;sylvia@not.at.this.address&gt; wrote in message
news:004a564d$0$1377$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

That has significant implications for the econmics of
solar power because it means that either the solar power generators are
turned off in the absence of a high air conditioning load, or other
generating capacity

Obviously the aim IS to turn the fossil fuel burning generators down
whenever possible to reduce GHG emission. Economics does not come into it
for those who believe global warming is a huge problem somehow unrelated to
global population, and the same politicians who hand out $8k subsidies for
those uneconomic roof top solar panels! Taxpayer support will simply be paid
to the Coal industry to offset their losses. As long as it's not coming out
of the politicians pockets, they won't care.

MrT.

 

[Mr.T]

"Sylvia Else" &lt;sylvia@not.at.this.address&gt; wrote in message
news:0054f503$0$13524$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

Since people don't get charged for power they're not using,

Oh yes they DO!!!
My cost for NOT using any power at all, is about a quarter of my usual bill.
For Gas it is nearly half, and for water it is over 2/3rds.

But the economics still get undermined when someone builds a solar power
generator that produces power only when the sun shines, and where that
power is not needed exactly because the sun is shining.

Of course, however the issue is NOT economics! As long as the users have no
cheaper alternative, they will be forced to pay whatever is required for
everyone concerned to make a profit.

MrT.

 

[Mr.T]

"Sylvia Else" &lt;sylvia@not.at.this.address&gt; wrote in message
news:0054f62f$0$13524$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

A few extra bucks to track rogue asteroids and comets might be well
worth
our while.

Since we can do nothing if we find one, why bother?

It's not really true that we can do nothing. A number of ideas have been
floated. For example, if you find an problem asteroid far enough in
advance of impact, simply painting it white may be all that's required
(it increases the solar radiation pressure, which produces a slight
change in orbit).

Sure, but you have to get a rocket there FAR faster than the object is
moving towards earth, (even assuming you had one ready to go.)
That would require rockets FAR faster than we are capable of sending, not to
mention slowing them down if you want to achieve anything when you get
there. Not to mention remote operation difficulties at great distances etc.
etc.

At the moment it's simply Science Fiction. Might as well send Superman and
the Fastastic Four instead

However, such 'close' shaves as we've had over the past few years have
been of the "what the hell was that?" category - we don't see it until
it has already missed.

Probably just as well, less panic since nothing can be done anyway.

MrT.

 

[Dyna Soar]

kreed wrote:

On Oct 14, 7:22 pm, "Dyna Soar" wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:

Why don't you go somewhere, take your clothes off and scare the
locals... &lt;g

What if she is a really hot, sexy woman ?

I've seen photos of Ms Else.
Believe me, she ain't...


--
Dyna

All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

kreed wrote:

What if she is a really hot, sexy woman ?

&lt;http://www.thewhitecockatoo.com/SylviaElseNLP.html&gt;
&lt;http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/images/authors/sylvia_else.jpg&gt;

Not responsible for bleeding eyeballs.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

 

[Sylvia Else]

Mr.T wrote:

"Sylvia Else" &lt;sylvia@not.at.this.address&gt; wrote in message
news:0054f62f$0$13524$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
A few extra bucks to track rogue asteroids and comets might be well
worth
our while.
Since we can do nothing if we find one, why bother?
It's not really true that we can do nothing. A number of ideas have been
floated. For example, if you find an problem asteroid far enough in
advance of impact, simply painting it white may be all that's required
(it increases the solar radiation pressure, which produces a slight
change in orbit).

Sure, but you have to get a rocket there FAR faster than the object is
moving towards earth, (even assuming you had one ready to go.)
That would require rockets FAR faster than we are capable of sending, not to
mention slowing them down if you want to achieve anything when you get
there. Not to mention remote operation difficulties at great distances etc.
etc.

That depends on whether it's barelling in on a collision orbit, or is
merely meandering away out there on a course that is predicted to lead
it to hit Earth some years into the future.

In the former case it is indeed hard to deal with. Spray painting it
won't work, and other apparently obvious techniques like giving it a
shove with a rocket don't work so well if, as is more than likely, it
turns out to be a rubble pile held together by its own miniscule
gravity, rather than a solid object.

But in the latter case, as I said, something as simple as painting it
white may be enough. It doesn't have to be a craftsman's quality work.

Sylvia.

 

[Sylvia Else]

L.A.T. wrote:

"Sylvia Else" &lt;sylvia@not.at.this.address&gt; wrote in message
news:0054f565$0$13524$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
terryc wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:09:18 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:


I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge airconditioning load
is a strong predictor of the sun shining,
Wow, so that is what makes the sun shine.
Do you really think that prediction equals causation? That would explain a
lot.

Sylvia.
You are wasting your time.
Your posts make sense, they are grammatically consistent, and you haven't
said fuck once.
Have you perhaps stumbled into the wrong newsgroup?

Well, perhaps.

But lack of understanding on the part of the public on issues like this
is a constant problem that interferes with good government. The best
decisions can be counterintuitive.

I still come across otherwise apparently intelligent people who believe
that Sydney did not need a desalinator, prefering to think that
alternatives such as rainwater tanks, recyling, storm water capture, or
building more dams, were the way to go, despite the reality that all
those options were either unfeasible, not effective, much more expensive
than the desalinator, or all of the above.

So the NSW Labor government gets castigated for the unusual course (for
them), of actually getting on and building a piece of infrastructure.

Who'd want to be in government?

Sylvia.

 

[keithr]

Mr.T wrote:

"David L. Jones" &lt;altzone@gmail.com&gt; wrote in message
news:xHMAm.2731$cL1.2364@newsfe20.iad...
A few extra bucks to track rogue asteroids and comets might be well worth
our while.

Since we can do nothing if we find one, why bother?

MrT.


Easy, we just send Clint Eastwood, Bruce Willis and a few others up to

deal with it. Hollywood did it years ago.

 

[keithr]

Davo wrote:

Sylvia Else wrote:
kreed wrote:
On Oct 15, 5:26 pm, Sylvia Else &lt;syl...@not.at.this.address&gt; wrote:
Dyna Soar wrote:
Sylvia Else wrote:
More of her usual bullshit snipped...
According to the BOM, today's anticipated maximum temperature in
Perth
is 27. They also say it will be fine, so presumably the sun will be
shining. At a maximum of 27, there will not be a huge airconditioning
load. Most people won't even turn it on.
Bloody hell it that the best you can do? Aristotle knew more than
you. "One
swallow does not a summer make."
Well, I provided a link to temperatures through the year, but you chose
not to understand it.



I'm just back from having lunch at the local pub (it's 2:30 ish
here). Had
a chat to the publican about the air-conditioning. It's been
running on
cooling since he opened this morning.
And even more so tomorrow and Saturday when it's forecast to be 29
and 34
respectively.
And that's a huge airconditioning load because....?

Sylvia

Think of all the heat producing stuff in a pub, refrigeration units,
lots of people, probably a kitchen running, usually have lots of
plasmas these days, especially for the TAB gear, probably several
PC's ..........
Air con would be inefficient there compared to a home as people are
always coming in and out, constantly opening doors.

You would probably need to turn on the air con even when it isn't that
hot outside, just to get rid of all the electrically generated heat
inside.

This would apply to just about any commercial premises, shopping
centres etc.


That's probably true. But it't not a function of whether the sun is
shining of not. The premise of this subthread was that there is a
strong correlation between the sun shining and there being a huge air
conditioning load to draw the power generated by solar power
generators. I'm saying that there's not, because while a huge
airconditioning load is a strong predictor of the sun shining, the
reverse is not true; solar power generators will produce power at
times when it is not needed for air conditioning. That has significant
implications for the econmics of solar power because it means that
either the solar power generators are turned off in the absence of a
high air conditioning load, or other generating capacity is, both of
which represent an economic inefficiency.

Sylvia.

There's a misunderstanding here. Turning off base load generators is
inefficient but turning off peak load generators, which usually run on
gas or oil, is not. I can tell you that oil is extremely expensive to
run, and in Western Australia there are limitations to how much gas you
can get down the pipeline, so you can't run gas on high loads anyway.
Perth is expecting 35 degrees today and it's not even summer yet. Perth
has a hot, dry climate and air conditioners are used extensively. I've
told you in the past the peak loads are in Perth summer are proportional
to the temperature but you don't listen.

In a hot dry climate, swamp coolers are very efficient at cooling and
use much less power. When we lived in Woomera (a lot hotter than Perth),
that was all we had but it was rare that the house was too hot. Now if
you live in Brisbane, its a different matter.