Suspected phone tap

[Floyd L. Davidson]

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

In alt.engineering.electrical PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:
| Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.

Improperly done taps could be detected by means of a loss of signal or a
reflection signal coming back. A well done tap would capture a miniscule
level of signal via high impedance loading, and there is no way to see
that by any means. What little reflection it might have would pale in
comparison to the typical reflections along the wire at various patch
panels and such. So you wouldn't know it was there.

Why would anyone do an analog wiretap?

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com

 

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:
Foxtrot wrote:
I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect
that a particular group of people may try to tap my
landline.
I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite
easy because I live in a block of flats. There are
various oblong concrete covers for the BT and
VirginMedia lines to the flats.
Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.
I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal
modulation on a line but does not interrupt it can be
detected at all.
Can I perform any checks? Can I ask VM to do any
checks?
As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to
have the line checked regularly but would VirginMedia
be prepared to do this?

It is illegal to gain access to another person's telephone under Section
1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). If you have
good reason to suspect that your calls are being intercepted, then
contact the police.

There are no meaningful checks that you can do, or VM would do. Other
than visually inspect whatever bits of your telephone line might be
accessible to you.

If you are worried, but don't think that you have enough evidence to go
to the police, then use a mobile phone or internet phone. Those are
rather more difficult for an unspecified group of people to intercept.
They are even easier. Don't do it.

They aren't easier for "unspecified groups of people" to do. Government
agencies and others authorised to intercept communications are very well
"specified".

It actually is easier, even for "unspecified groups".

Funniest damned thing I ever saw was a story printed on
the front page of a newspaper giving a verbatim
transcript of a cell phone call where a guy admited to
committing murder. The newspaper had what amounted to
an illegal wiretap. They were never so much as
investigated, if for no other reason that the police
*also* had an illegal wiretap on the same call!

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com

 

In alt.engineering.electrical Stuart <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
| In article <Xns9A49A0904EF5601A4D@127.0.0.1>,
| Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid> wrote:
|
|> I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a particular
|> group of people may try to tap my landline.
|
| You're not that MI5 paranoid spammer are you?

The MI5 spammer is already convinced his phone is tapped. If it was not
before, it surely is now, anyway.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-19-1302@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

 

In alt.engineering.electrical PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:
| On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:47:02 GMT, Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid>
| wrote:
|
|>I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a particular
|>group of people may try to tap my landline.
|>
|>I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because I live
|>in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete covers for the
|>BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.
|>
|>Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.
|>
|>I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a line
|>but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.
|>
|>Can I perform any checks?
|>Can I ask VM to do any checks?
|>
|>As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
|>checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?
|
|
| Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.

Improperly done taps could be detected by means of a loss of signal or a
reflection signal coming back. A well done tap would capture a miniscule
level of signal via high impedance loading, and there is no way to see
that by any means. What little reflection it might have would pale in
comparison to the typical reflections along the wire at various patch
panels and such. So you wouldn't know it was there.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-19-1259@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

 

[Ivor Jones]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:47BCE4EA.1D90B715@earthlink.net

[snip]

: : Or wait for one to turn up at a government auction.
: : I picked up a complete 911 phone logging system and all
: : the 10.5" reels of tape for next to nothing. I sold
: : the recorders to a company that owned thousands of pay
: : phones to use when there was a court ordered tap on one
: : of their phones.

Is that likely in the UK..?

Ivor

 

[Foxtrot]

On Tue 19 Feb 2008 16:24:04, Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

Foxtrot wrote:
I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a
particular group of people may try to tap my landline.

I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because
I live in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete
covers for the BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.

Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.

I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a
line but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.

Can I perform any checks?
Can I ask VM to do any checks?

As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?


It is illegal to gain access to another person's telephone under
Section 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
(RIPA). If you have good reason to suspect that your calls are
being intercepted, then contact the police.

There are no meaningful checks that you can do, or VM would do.
Other than visually inspect whatever bits of your telephone line
might be accessible to you.

If you are worried, but don't think that you have enough evidence
to go to the police, then use a mobile phone or internet phone.
Those are rather more difficult for an unspecified group of people
to intercept.

But how can I detect it if it is being done (even if it is illegal)?

There are plenty of illegal taps. This is a web page which describes
former police officers actually doing it.
http://cms.met.police.uk/news/convictions/six_men_jailed_for_misconduct

"The company charged clients between Ł5,000 and Ł7,000
to hack into computers and Ł6,000 to bug telephone lines.

The MPS was initially contacted by British Telecom, who
had identified a number of devices attached to junction
boxes, which they suspected were being used to intercept
phone conversations."

As far as I am concerned it is by then, too late. The info has been
leaked.

 

[Foxtrot]

On Tue 19 Feb 2008 22:28:02, Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

The scope of this thread was the suspected tapping of a landline
phone going to a flat. Generally extremely easy to do, needing
little expertise or expensive equipment. The suggestion was to use
a mobile phone - which, as the OP is in the uk, means a phone with
an encrypted digital data stream. Intercepting that would need a
great deal of expertise - it would be far easier to resort to other
methods, eg eavesdrop on the sound signals in the room(s).

What you post makes a lot of sense but incoming callers may be disuaded
from ringing a mobile on account of the costs.

Similarly, long outgoing calls will be probitively expensive for me from
a mobile.

I'm not familiar with VOIP but could I use VOIP and set up an encrypted
link between me and the VOIP provider? Access to a VOIP server seems to
me much harder than access to a manhole cover in the street.

 

[Foxtrot]

On Tue 19 Feb 2008 16:45:36, Floyd L. Davidson <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote:

Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid> wrote:
[...]

Let me give you some advice... but first you need also
to know what my qualifications are to provide that
advice: I worked in the telecommunications industry for
34 years, and retired 6 years ago. I have had the
(mis)fortune of setting up legal and illegal wiretaps.
I have also had the experience of having my work phone
tapped illegally. All of that of course was in the US,
hence I will not attempt to give you advice about
specifics or the legal status, because I simply don't
know how any of it would apply to you.

Here's what I have known since perhaps a month after I
began working in the industry: Do *NOT* *EVER* say
anything on a telephone that you cannot tolerate being
printed on the front page of the local newspaper the
next day.

Take that serious. It applies to your personal life.
It applies to your business. It applies if you are a
criminal, or if you are a judge.

If you cannot tolerate something being in the newspaper,
find a different way to communicate it to the people you
need to exchange that information with. DO NOT USE A
TELEPHONE.

I do not disbelieve you.

In part, it's a question of probabilities. For most people the
probability (as far as they know it) of getting tapped is close to zero.
They might find this discussion sounds bizarre and paranoid.

In my case, the likelihood of this happening has moved from almost zero
to maybe, let me guess, 30 percent. That is way too high for my
comfort.

But how does anyone function effectively these days without using a
phone?

 

[Foxtrot]

On Wed 20 Feb 2008 20:39:10, Ron Lowe
<ronATlowe-famlyDOTmeDOTukSPURIOUS> wrote:

"Foxtrot" <foxtrot@demo.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns9A49A0904EF5601A4D@127.0.0.1...
I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a
particular
group of people may try to tap my landline.

I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because
I live in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete
covers for the BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.

Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.

I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a
line but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.

Can I perform any checks?
Can I ask VM to do any checks?

As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?



If I felt the need of a secure phone system, I would set up a
secure private VoIP network.

At my end:
1) Set up an Asterisk server on my LAN;
2) Configure an IP phone to register with it;
3) Configure a secure VPN gateway to accept incoming connections.

At the other end(s):
1) Configure a VPN client box to establish a secure tunnel to my
LAN's VPN gateway;
2) Configure an IP phone to register with my asterisk box over the
VPN.

If you choose a good enough VPN implimentation, then I think it
would be pretty secure.

Sorry to be so dumb but this all seems quite complicated to someone
like me who has never used VOIP.

Presumably such a setup still allows mew to keep my existing phone
number.

Is there perhaps an easier way to do this without having to work with
the technology at the sort of level you are writing for?

 

[Stuart]

In article <6259tuF1v7i2vU1@mid.individual.net>,
Ivor Jones <ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:47BCE4EA.1D90B715@earthlink.net

[snip]

: : Or wait for one to turn up at a government auction.
: : I picked up a complete 911 phone logging system and all
: : the 10.5" reels of tape for next to nothing. I sold
: : the recorders to a company that owned thousands of pay
: : phones to use when there was a court ordered tap on one
: : of their phones.

Is that likely in the UK..?

No.

I have often wandered around "Government surplus" depots and there is
usually electronic test gear - old scopes, multimeters that kind of stuff,
spare parts for landrovers and small trucks, usually lots of clothing.
Tools, picks, shovels, empty ammunition boxes....but nothing quite like
that.

See http://www.anchorsupplies.com/

For a selection.

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

 

[Palindrome]

Stuart wrote:

In article <6259tuF1v7i2vU1@mid.individual.net>,
Ivor Jones <ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:47BCE4EA.1D90B715@earthlink.net

[snip]

: : Or wait for one to turn up at a government auction.
: : I picked up a complete 911 phone logging system and all
: : the 10.5" reels of tape for next to nothing. I sold
: : the recorders to a company that owned thousands of pay
: : phones to use when there was a court ordered tap on one
: : of their phones.

Is that likely in the UK..?

No.

I have often wandered around "Government surplus" depots and there is
usually electronic test gear - old scopes, multimeters that kind of stuff,
spare parts for landrovers and small trucks, usually lots of clothing.
Tools, picks, shovels, empty ammunition boxes....but nothing quite like
that.

See http://www.anchorsupplies.com/

For a selection.

Possibly because they have already been sold. Try auctions, instead. I
have been totally shocked by the stuff that is sold at Government
Surplus Auctions. Not to mention what I have found in auctioned-off
filing cabinets, that clearly have not been emptied, or checked, prior
to disposal.


No, I am not even going to mention what kinds of stuff are disposed of.
Use your imagination, or better, go to a few.
--
Sue

 

[Palindrome]

Foxtrot wrote:

On Tue 19 Feb 2008 16:24:04, Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

Foxtrot wrote:
I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a
particular group of people may try to tap my landline.

I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because
I live in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete
covers for the BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.

Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.

I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a
line but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.

Can I perform any checks?
Can I ask VM to do any checks?

As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?

It is illegal to gain access to another person's telephone under
Section 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
(RIPA). If you have good reason to suspect that your calls are
being intercepted, then contact the police.

There are no meaningful checks that you can do, or VM would do.
Other than visually inspect whatever bits of your telephone line
might be accessible to you.

If you are worried, but don't think that you have enough evidence
to go to the police, then use a mobile phone or internet phone.
Those are rather more difficult for an unspecified group of people
to intercept.



But how can I detect it if it is being done (even if it is illegal)?

Read what I wrote, perhaps?

"...visually inspect whatever bits of your telephone line might be
accessible to you."

If they are lawfully tapping your phone, you will never detect it. If
they are unlawfully tapping it - then the first place to do is to
visually inspect any of your phone line wiring that is accessible, but
not in the outside patch box. Any addition to the latter is more likely
to be spotted. There is quite possibly a junction box in the building,
down in the basement, perhaps. Or in a shared hallway. I'd look there..

--
Sue

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ivor Jones wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:47BCE4EA.1D90B715@earthlink.net

[snip]

: : Or wait for one to turn up at a government auction.
: : I picked up a complete 911 phone logging system and all
: : the 10.5" reels of tape for next to nothing. I sold
: : the recorders to a company that owned thousands of pay
: : phones to use when there was a court ordered tap on one
: : of their phones.

Is that likely in the UK..?

Ivor

Doesn't your government waste money by junking repairable equipment?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Clint Sharp]

In message <47BDA04A.695BA780@earthlink.net>, Michael A. Terrell
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> writes

Doesn't your government waste money by junking repairable equipment?
Ah, ours is way ahead of yours, we buy non working junk in the first

place to save the effort of having to try and repair it later. It's much
more efficient that way.
--
Clint Sharp

 

[Palindrome]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ivor Jones wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:47BCE4EA.1D90B715@earthlink.net

[snip]

: : Or wait for one to turn up at a government auction.
: : I picked up a complete 911 phone logging system and all
: : the 10.5" reels of tape for next to nothing. I sold
: : the recorders to a company that owned thousands of pay
: : phones to use when there was a court ordered tap on one
: : of their phones.

Is that likely in the UK..?

Ivor


Doesn't your government waste money by junking repairable equipment?

The UK military went through a huge downsizing and "contracting out" a
while ago. They closed all sorts of "interesting" research places and
large amounts of kit appeared in auctions, afterwards. Most of it
working, much of it even in date for test. Many lots were mis-described
or described as "units, various".

Sigh. Such days are rare. Here.



--
Sue

 

[kraftee]

Foxtrot wrote:

I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a
particular group of people may try to tap my landline.

I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because I
live in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete
covers for the BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.

Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.

I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a
line but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.

Can I perform any checks?
Can I ask VM to do any checks?

As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?

Even if what you suspect is happening, there would be nothing
physically attatched to your line so nothing would be found. As a
telephone engineer I carry some test gear which as a side effect of
it's purpose can pickup modulation over pairs of wires but there has
got to be easier ways to do what you think is happening as picking up
by induction is very difficult to do clearly.

If you were with BT & could prove there was a real risk of such things
happening then they would investigate (chargable of course) but seeing
as you are with Virigin all I will is good luck to you...& keep taking
the tablets...

 

[Stuart]

In article <jmMHA$EtzavHFwYz@clintsmc.demon.co.uk>,
Clint Sharp <clint@clintsmc.demon.co.uk> wrote:

In message <47BDA04A.695BA780@earthlink.net>, Michael A. Terrell
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> writes
Doesn't your government waste money by junking repairable equipment?
Ah, ours is way ahead of yours, we buy non working junk in the first
place to save the effort of having to try and repair it later. It's much
more efficient that way.

Yeh and most of it seems to be bought off the USA >8|

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

 

[Ivor Jones]

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:47BDA04A.695BA780@earthlink.net

[snip]

: : Doesn't your government waste money by junking
: : repairable equipment?

No, they prefer to leave laptops containing everybody's personal details
in unattended cars in Birmingham.

Ivor

 

[Long Ranger]

If someone can pull off a phone tap, then they are probably reading what you
write here. If I thought I was being tapped, I would have a phony
conversation with a partner about something of interest to the people I
thought tapped my line. Then I would look for a reaction to it. For
instance, if I thought it was the police, I might arrange a phony dope
transaction, complete with packages being exchanged.

 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:35:30 -0800, "Long Ranger" <lorpkins@earthlink
..net> wrote:

If someone can pull off a phone tap, then they are probably reading what you
write here. If I thought I was being tapped, I would have a phony
conversation with a partner about something of interest to the people I
thought tapped my line. Then I would look for a reaction to it. For
instance, if I thought it was the police, I might arrange a phony dope
transaction, complete with packages being exchanged.

You are putting a lot of trust in the cops not to actually "find" some

real dope when they arrest you.

If they are really looking at you hard enough to get a legal tap they
have other things that constitute "probable cause" for the warrant. If
it is an illegal tap, they are by definition rogue cops. Who knows
what they will do.