Suspected phone tap

[PeterD]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:47:02 GMT, Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid>
wrote:

I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a particular
group of people may try to tap my landline.

I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because I live
in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete covers for the
BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.

Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.

I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a line
but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.

Can I perform any checks?
Can I ask VM to do any checks?

As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?

Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.

 

[Floyd L. Davidson]

Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

Foxtrot wrote:
I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect
that a particular group of people may try to tap my
landline.
I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite
easy because I live in a block of flats. There are
various oblong concrete covers for the BT and
VirginMedia lines to the flats.
Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.
I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal
modulation on a line but does not interrupt it can be
detected at all.
Can I perform any checks? Can I ask VM to do any
checks?
As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to
have the line checked regularly but would VirginMedia
be prepared to do this?


It is illegal to gain access to another person's telephone under Section
1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). If you have
good reason to suspect that your calls are being intercepted, then
contact the police.

There are no meaningful checks that you can do, or VM would do. Other
than visually inspect whatever bits of your telephone line might be
accessible to you.

If you are worried, but don't think that you have enough evidence to go
to the police, then use a mobile phone or internet phone. Those are
rather more difficult for an unspecified group of people to intercept.

They are even easier. Don't do it.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com

 

[Floyd L. Davidson]

PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:47:02 GMT, Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid
wrote:
As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?

Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.

PeterD is dead on right. That is *absolutely* true.

--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com

 

[Theo Markettos]

In uk.telecom Floyd L. Davidson <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote:

PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:
Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.

PeterD is dead on right. That is *absolutely* true.

If the police/spooks are doing it, they'll do it in software at the
exchange so there'll be nothing to see.

http://spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5280
documents one rather high-level recent case.

Theo

 

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:47:02 GMT, Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid>
wrote:

I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a particular
group of people may try to tap my landline.

I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because I live
in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete covers for the
BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.

Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.

I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a line
but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.

Can I perform any checks?
Can I ask VM to do any checks?

As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?

Of course your phone is tapped, haven't you seen all the MI5 posts?
;-)
That is NSA/Dick Cheney to US readers

 

In alt.engineering.electrical Floyd L. Davidson <floyd@apaflo.com> wrote:
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|>In alt.engineering.electrical PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:
|>| Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.
|>
|>Improperly done taps could be detected by means of a loss of signal or a
|>reflection signal coming back. A well done tap would capture a miniscule
|>level of signal via high impedance loading, and there is no way to see
|>that by any means. What little reflection it might have would pale in
|>comparison to the typical reflections along the wire at various patch
|>panels and such. So you wouldn't know it was there.
|
| Why would anyone do an analog wiretap?

They would if the line is analog. But even if digital, a poor tap can
still be detected by using a TDR which would be pushing an analog signal
on the wire and watching what comes back.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-19-1933@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

 

[Bill]

In message <O0Huj.1025$_65.743@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>, Woody
<woody@spamblock.com> writes

Why worry about wire taps?

Illegal or not in most cases these days they are done in the exchange
and remotely.

It was alleged that there was a place in Chester that did the 'tapping'
for the whole country - just tell the exchange to send you the audio,
easy as that.

Do you mean??????????????????

http://www.lamont.me.uk/capenhurst/original.html


--
Bill

 

[Bill]

In message <rv1mr315s4fp0e320en19mne3sm13u4th0@4ax.com>, PeterD
<peter2@hipson.net> writes

Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.

Properly done taps are impossible to detect.
--
Bill

 

[PeterD]

On 19 Feb 2008 19:01:40 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

In alt.engineering.electrical PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote:
| On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 15:47:02 GMT, Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid
| wrote:
|
|>I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a particular
|>group of people may try to tap my landline.
|
|>I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because I live
|>in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete covers for the
|>BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.
|
|>Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.
|
|>I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a line
|>but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.
|
|>Can I perform any checks?
|>Can I ask VM to do any checks?
|
|>As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
|>checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?
|
|
| Properly done taps are virtually impossible to detect.

Improperly done taps could be detected by means of a loss of signal or a
reflection signal coming back. A well done tap would capture a miniscule
level of signal via high impedance loading, and there is no way to see
that by any means. What little reflection it might have would pale in
comparison to the typical reflections along the wire at various patch
panels and such. So you wouldn't know it was there.

considering that virtually all phone lines have stubs along their
route, echos and reflections are always expected and are also
unpredictable in nature.

 

[Salmon Egg]

In article <Xns9A49A0904EF5601A4D@127.0.0.1>,
Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid> wrote:

I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a particular
group of people may try to tap my landline.

I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite easy because I live
in a block of flats. There are various oblong concrete covers for the
BT and VirginMedia lines to the flats.

Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.

I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal modulation on a line
but does not interrupt it can be detected at all.

Can I perform any checks?
Can I ask VM to do any checks?

As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to have the line
checked regularly but would VirginMedia be prepared to do this?

I depends on how it is done. If I wanted to tap a phone undetectably, I
would just use a hook on magnetic core like is used for hook-on
ammeters. The secondary winding would run into a low impedance (current)
amplifier.

Bill

 

[Palindrome]

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:
Foxtrot wrote:
I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect
that a particular group of people may try to tap my
landline.
I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite
easy because I live in a block of flats. There are
various oblong concrete covers for the BT and
VirginMedia lines to the flats.
Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.
I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal
modulation on a line but does not interrupt it can be
detected at all.
Can I perform any checks? Can I ask VM to do any
checks?
As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to
have the line checked regularly but would VirginMedia
be prepared to do this?

It is illegal to gain access to another person's telephone under Section
1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). If you have
good reason to suspect that your calls are being intercepted, then
contact the police.

There are no meaningful checks that you can do, or VM would do. Other
than visually inspect whatever bits of your telephone line might be
accessible to you.

If you are worried, but don't think that you have enough evidence to go
to the police, then use a mobile phone or internet phone. Those are
rather more difficult for an unspecified group of people to intercept.

They are even easier. Don't do it.

They aren't easier for "unspecified groups of people" to do. Government

agencies and others authorised to intercept communications are very well
"specified".

--
Sue

 

[Stuart]

In article <O0Huj.1025$_65.743@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>,
Woody <woody@spamblock.com> wrote:

It was alleged that there was a place in Chester that did the 'tapping'
for the whole country - just tell the exchange to send you the audio,
easy as that.

I thought it was part of Fylingdales - or maybe it's GCHQ in Cheltenham

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

 

[Theo Markettos]

In uk.telecom Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

The article rather proves my point."Major network penetrations of any
kind are exceedingly uncommon. They are hard to pull off, and equally
hard to investigate."

The simplest attack on GSM is sniffing it over-the-air.

It's not easy, but the A5 cipher used by GSM (2G) has various
vulnerabilities and there are some people working on a useful GSM cracker:
http://events.ccc.de/camp/2007/Fahrplan/events/2015.en.html
Barkan, Biham and Keller have presented a realtime practical attack on GSM
based on breaking A5:
http://cryptome.org/gsm-crack-bbk.pdf

KASUMI in UMTS (3G) as yet doesn't have any practical attacks.

Theo

 

[Palindrome]

Theo Markettos wrote:

In uk.telecom Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:
The article rather proves my point."Major network penetrations of any
kind are exceedingly uncommon. They are hard to pull off, and equally
hard to investigate."

The simplest attack on GSM is sniffing it over-the-air.

The challenge was to my words, ".. use a mobile phone or internet phone.
Those are rather more difficult* for an unspecified group of people to
intercept." *Than a land line.

I would suggest that those words are correct. Specified groups, such as
Government Agencies, are a different matter.

It's not easy,

Thank you. I would suggest, "not as easy as tapping a land line" as
alternative wording.

but the A5 cipher used by GSM (2G) has various
vulnerabilities and there are some people working on a useful GSM cracker:
http://events.ccc.de/camp/2007/Fahrplan/events/2015.en.html
Barkan, Biham and Keller have presented a realtime practical attack on GSM
based on breaking A5:
http://cryptome.org/gsm-crack-bbk.pdf

KASUMI in UMTS (3G) as yet doesn't have any practical attacks.

The "unspecified group" isn't likely to contain experts on crypto.

The scope of this thread was the suspected tapping of a landline phone
going to a flat. Generally extremely easy to do, needing little
expertise or expensive equipment. The suggestion was to use a mobile
phone - which, as the OP is in the uk, means a phone with an encrypted
digital data stream. Intercepting that would need a great deal of
expertise - it would be far easier to resort to other methods, eg
eavesdrop on the sound signals in the room(s).

--
Sue

 

[Stuart]

In article <Xns9A49A0904EF5601A4D@127.0.0.1>,
Foxtrot <foxtrot@demo.invalid> wrote:

I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect that a particular
group of people may try to tap my landline.

You're not that MI5 paranoid spammer are you?

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

"R. Mark Clayton" wrote:

Just ring a mate and tell him that you will swap the plutonium for the drugs
at Waterloo Station...

Be sure to throw in "Allah Akbar" a few times.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian paul@hovnanian.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Procrastinators: The leaders for tomorrow.

 

[Palindrome]

Ivor Jones wrote:

"Palindrome" <me9@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:R6Huj.229393$X76.37392@fe08.news.easynews.com

[snip]

: : It is possible to intercept digital cellphone traffic,
: : but decrypting it, without cloning the phone's key
: : (which needs physical access to the phone) is rather
: : more difficult than tapping a landline.

Read this article, posted elsewhere in this thread, to see how someone
recently did exactly that:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5280

The article rather proves my point."Major network penetrations of any

kind are exceedingly uncommon. They are hard to pull off, and equally
hard to investigate."

--
Sue

 

[Ivor Jones]

"Palindrome" <me9@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:R6Huj.229393$X76.37392@fe08.news.easynews.com

[snip]

: : It is possible to intercept digital cellphone traffic,
: : but decrypting it, without cloning the phone's key
: : (which needs physical access to the phone) is rather
: : more difficult than tapping a landline.

Read this article, posted elsewhere in this thread, to see how someone
recently did exactly that:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/jul07/5280


Ivor

 

[Palindrome]

Floyd L. Davidson wrote:

Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:
Floyd L. Davidson wrote:
Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:
Foxtrot wrote:
I have never been a conspiracy theorist but I suspect
that a particular group of people may try to tap my
landline.
I am in the UK and access to my phone wires is quite
easy because I live in a block of flats. There are
various oblong concrete covers for the BT and
VirginMedia lines to the flats.
Currently I use VirginMedia for phone service.
I wonder if a tap which juts picks up the signal
modulation on a line but does not interrupt it can be
detected at all.
Can I perform any checks? Can I ask VM to do any
checks?
As I am dealing with some odd folks, I would like to
have the line checked regularly but would VirginMedia
be prepared to do this?

It is illegal to gain access to another person's telephone under Section
1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). If you have
good reason to suspect that your calls are being intercepted, then
contact the police.

There are no meaningful checks that you can do, or VM would do. Other
than visually inspect whatever bits of your telephone line might be
accessible to you.

If you are worried, but don't think that you have enough evidence to go
to the police, then use a mobile phone or internet phone. Those are
rather more difficult for an unspecified group of people to intercept.
They are even easier. Don't do it.

They aren't easier for "unspecified groups of people" to do. Government
agencies and others authorised to intercept communications are very well
"specified".

It actually is easier, even for "unspecified groups".

Funniest damned thing I ever saw was a story printed on
the front page of a newspaper giving a verbatim
transcript of a cell phone call where a guy admited to
committing murder. The newspaper had what amounted to
an illegal wiretap. They were never so much as
investigated, if for no other reason that the police
*also* had an illegal wiretap on the same call!

That would have been an analogue cell phone. The OP is in the UK, where
these were phased out some time ago. IIUC, they will soon all be gone
from the USA, too.

It is possible to intercept digital cellphone traffic, but decrypting
it, without cloning the phone's key (which needs physical access to the
phone) is rather more difficult than tapping a landline.

--
Sue


--
Sue

 

[Woody]

Why worry about wire taps?

Illegal or not in most cases these days they are done in the exchange
and remotely.

It was alleged that there was a place in Chester that did the 'tapping'
for the whole country - just tell the exchange to send you the audio,
easy as that.



--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com