Solar cell modules

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:28:31 -0400) it happened KR Williams
<krw@att.biz> wrote in <MPG.1aec689493de524e98972e@news1.news.adelphia.net>:

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.
A guess it is, given that solar cell efficiancy will eventually reach 60 %

in my estimate, then yes, buy one like that in your next lifetime if you
believe in that stuff.
In the mean time there are thoso who use them now.
When the US gets a real oil problem, you can always get one at crisis price.
JP

 

[KR Williams]

In article <epj380tefb05kspk05k75h34bjeio7k46e@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened "Newsgroups"
f.dinger@ntlworld.com> wrote in <hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win>:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I believe the name of that farm is "San Gorgonio Pass" and has
about 3500 turbines. The "Altimont Pass" farm has another 3500
and an even larger one in "Tehachapi Pass" (5000). (there is a
common thread in these names ;-)

Altogether something like 1% of CA's electricity comes from wind.
That's impressive, though hardly scale able to 100%. The CA
mountain passes hardly indicate the viability of wind power in
the rest of the country/world.

--
Keith

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:56:48 -0400, KR Williams <krw@att.biz> wrote:

In article <epj380tefb05kspk05k75h34bjeio7k46e@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
[snip]
Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were off-line
for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've *never* seen
anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or twice a
year.

[snip]

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[KR Williams]

In article <c995805s3u7mpk6auk3btpuokolnr70nss@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:56:48 -0400, KR Williams <krw@att.biz> wrote:

In article <epj380tefb05kspk05k75h34bjeio7k46e@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
[snip]
Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I drove
through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of the
wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.

I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were off-line
for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've *never* seen
anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or twice a
year.

From my conversations with wind-energy proponents after seeing
the farm, they seem to be off-line for maintenance, and the
required maintenance wasn't deemed profitable. No subsidies for
maintenance, only development. This may have changed since the
generators have become cheaper, perhaps even profitable. ;-)

--
Keith

 

[KR Williams]

In article <c5u8e2$1ti1$1@news.f.de.plusline.net>,
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com says...

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:28:31 -0400) it happened KR Williams
krw@att.biz> wrote in <MPG.1aec689493de524e98972e@news1.news.adelphia.net>:

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.
A guess it is, given that solar cell efficiancy will eventually reach 60 %
in my estimate, then yes, buy one like that in your next lifetime if you
believe in that stuff.

Nope. That's why I'm not investing for the next lifetime. Only
fools without an ounce of economic sense do so.

In the mean time there are thoso who use them now.

Economic illiterates, yes. Ok, there are some who choose to live
off-grid for other reasons. I work with one. Fool (for choosing
to live off-grid), yes. Economic fool, no.

When the US gets a real oil problem, you can always get one at crisis price.

You're an economic illiterate too. Hasn't the concept of
competition reached that hell-hole yet? ...or are you really
that stupid?

--
Keith

 

[Richard Henry]

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:8rk48014b9pti1lmato1pbd10lmei12nvr@4ax.com...

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
f.dinger@ntlworld.com> wrote in <hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win>:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

 

[Richard Henry]

"Jan Panteltje" <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c5u4ha$1qmk$1@news.f.de.plusline.net...

On a sunny day (Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700) it happened Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote in
epj380tefb05kspk05k75h34bjeio7k46e@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
f.dinger@ntlworld.com> wrote in <hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win>:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.
Only seen pictures of it.
These look the same as the ones we have here.
There are plans to build a whole bunch out in the sea here, but I dunno
how
far that is from realization.

There are already a significant number of off-shore windmills in Denmark.
Or at least next to Denmark.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:47:54 -0700, the renowned "Richard Henry"
<rphenry@home.com> wrote:

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:8rk48014b9pti1lmato1pbd10lmei12nvr@4ax.com...
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
f.dinger@ntlworld.com> wrote in <hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win>:

Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V , voltage limited by a
home
made shunt controller .
System includes a 150 Watts wind generator , to support system during
windy
(and usually sunless) periods
Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP

Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on I10) ?

HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.

...Jim Thompson

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

I think, other than the pollution, the costs are included in the
overall running cost (dead miners, etc. etc.). The pollution is a bit
harder to figure, but modern plants are pretty clean. I live close to
a big thermal plant and the left-wing newspapers have been running
pictures of the stacks (usually with evil lighting) saying that
"smoke" is rising blah blah. They've dug up old pictures with all 4
stacks running, and it's usually running at 25%; never more than 50%.
Of course it's mostly steam and some CO2- on a clear day you can see
nothing in the air discoloring it, just the refraction from the heat
and steam trails that rapidly dissipate. The stupid new gov't has been
making noises about closing the thermal plants *AND* the nuclear
plants- I don't know where they think the power would come from (maybe
we can buy it all and export the problem to less "responsible"
people). Bleh. Even with conservation measures and some
deindustrialization, population is growing at a healthy rate, and so
is consumption.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Roger Gt]

X-No-Archive: yes
"Spehro Pefhany" wrote
: Jim Thompson wrote
: >Jan Panteltje wrote
: >>
: >>> Charging 12 V Lead -Acid batteries to 14.4 V ,
: >>> voltage limited by a home made shunt controller .
: >>> System includes a 150 Watts wind generator,
: >>> to support system during windy
: >>> (and usually sunless) periods
: >> Now a wind generator would be cool,
: >> there are many windmills of huge size here,
: >> one next to my house (100m or so),
: >> a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller ones...
: >> It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
: >> How big is that thing? JP
: >
: >Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio, California (on
I10)?
: >HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators. ...Jim Thompson
: It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the
canyons
: there and there are dust storms. A fair number of them seem to
be down
: for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really
more
: cost effective than burning coal. Spehro Pefhany

Went by Cabazon on Wednesday, more than 2/3's of the windmills
were idle, and a lot were feathered waiting for maintenance. They
are very expensive!
I was approached on investing a smaller one, the minimum
investment was $130,000 and they promised a payback of five years.
Didn't mention the need to constantly repair and service the
monsters. The larger Windmills are much more expensive. I really
can't imagine how they will ever pay for themselves until the
price of delivered power is much higher.

Last month I went to Palm springs for the Faire, and there was no
noticeable difference in the numbers of windmills in operation.

 

[Roger Gt]

X-No-Archive: yes
"KR Williams" wrote
: thegreatone@example.com wrote
: > KR Williams wrote
: > >thegreatone@example.com wrote
: > [snip]
: > >> Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio,
: > >> California (on I10) ?
: > >> HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.
: > >
: > >Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I
drove
: > >through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of
the
: > >wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.
: >
: > I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were
off-line
: > for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've
*never* seen
: > anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or
twice a
: > year.
:
: From my conversations with wind-energy proponents after seeing
: the farm, they seem to be off-line for maintenance, and the
: required maintenance wasn't deemed profitable. No subsidies for
: maintenance, only development. This may have changed since the
: generators have become cheaper, perhaps even profitable. ;-)
: Keith


Those Windmills, the bigger ones, cost about $1.2 million each,
maintained is estimated at $60K per year each and there are
hundreds of them, and from what I heard, (maybe not reliable) is
that many of the ones that are feathered are waiting for parts.
Bearings are the big one, thy have to tear the generator down to
replace them, about once every five years. The bearing
replacement is even more expensive than average!

Roger Gt.

 

[Highland Ham]

Last month I went to Palm springs for the Faire, and there was no
noticeable difference in the numbers of windmills in operation.
=====================

Having seen these machines near Palm Springs ,they seem to be rather small
and of an older design.
Modern machines are much bigger (up to 2 MW rated capacity) and more
reliable.
In the Netherlands they are now planning a number of 2MW machines offshore
,approx 8 kms off the coast placed on seabed based stuctures.
Their designers are focussing on minimum maintenance ( only once every 3
years) .

To date land based machines produce on average only 16% of their rated
capacity ,due to periods without adequate wind and to technical outage /
maintenance. Yet they seem profitable. In the Netherlands many farmers have
them on their land ,especially
in the northern provinces.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

 

[KR Williams]

In article <8ABgc.23985$VG3.9293@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>,
not@here.net says...

X-No-Archive: yes
"KR Williams" wrote
: thegreatone@example.com wrote
: > KR Williams wrote
: > >thegreatone@example.com wrote
: > [snip]
: > >> Have you seen the windmill "farm" west of Indio,
: > >> California (on I10) ?
: > >> HUNDREDS of large windmill AC generators.
:
: > >Is that the farm between LA and (around) Palm Springs? I
drove
: > >through there ~five years ago and was amazed at the size of
the
: > >wind-farm(s?) and the number of turbines that were stopped.
:
: > I haven't been able to determine if the stopped units were
off-line
: > for repair, or simply off-line based on grid needs. I've
*never* seen
: > anyone *working* on them, but I drive by there only once or
twice a
: > year.
:
: From my conversations with wind-energy proponents after seeing
: the farm, they seem to be off-line for maintenance, and the
: required maintenance wasn't deemed profitable. No subsidies for
: maintenance, only development. This may have changed since the
: generators have become cheaper, perhaps even profitable. ;-)
: Keith


Those Windmills, the bigger ones, cost about $1.2 million each,
maintained is estimated at $60K per year each and there are
hundreds of them, and from what I heard, (maybe not reliable) is
that many of the ones that are feathered are waiting for parts.
Bearings are the big one, thy have to tear the generator down to
replace them, about once every five years. The bearing
replacement is even more expensive than average!

You could easily be right. My source was from someone inside the
"renewable energy" biz. He may be overly optimistic.
....wouldn't be the first time.

--
Keith

 

[Jerry Koniecki]

KR Williams wrote:

In article <c5mqgb$23pc$1@news.wplus.net>,
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com says...
On a sunny day (Thu, 15 Apr 2004 05:57:18 GMT) it happened
ehsjr@bellatlantic.net wrote in <407E2458.C40B070D@bellatlantic.net>:

....snip...

Add that in, and the cost of a $15000 system is
much worse - over 30,000 in a 25 year, 7% mortgage.

You have to take into account that the cost of a kWh from
the grid in 25 years will be a LOT higher too, if there
still is a grid during and after WW3 that is.

That's silly economics. I do not have to take into account the
cost of electricity in 25 years. I can wait. Solar cells are
becoming cheaper too. When the cost of the solar cell is less
than the cost of power from the grid I can switch, saving all of
the negative amortization inbetween, and have a *new* system in
25 years, just as you're in need of replacing yours. ;-)

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.

They have access to the tech, BUT, they also have to maintain the
distribution system. Since my electricity has been unbundled,
roughly half of my cost per Kwh goes to the distribution co., not the
producer. Ice storms, drunk drivers, blown line fuses all cost money.
As well as the personel and associated benefits packages,
transportation costs of materials, etc. for maintaining the lines.
All this is avoided cost on home solar.

And...
www.solaraccess.com/news/story?storyid=6482

talking about a new discovery:

"A solar cell with the simplest possible physical structure could
achieve 50 percent efficiency or better, far higher than any yet
demonstrated in the laboratory."

It isn't cost effective for most of us yet, but the tipping point
is coming.

--
Jerry wa2rkn no email @ present

 

[Jerry Koniecki]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:47:54 -0700, the renowned "Richard Henry"
rphenry@home.com> wrote:


"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:8rk48014b9pti1lmato1pbd10lmei12nvr@4ax.com...
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 17:45:00 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 00:35:15 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:08:04 +0100) it happened
"Newsgroups"
f.dinger@ntlworld.com> wrote in <hQjgc.160$Jc5.69@newsfe1-win>:

....snip...

It's an unusual place- the wind just whistles through the canyons
there and there are dust stoms. A fair number of them seem to be down
for maintenance whenever I go through. I wonder if it is really more
cost effective than burning coal.

That depends to some degree what you consider the "costs" of burning coal
are.

I think, other than the pollution, the costs are included in the
overall running cost (dead miners, etc. etc.). The pollution is a bit
harder to figure, but modern plants are pretty clean. I live close to
a big thermal plant and the left-wing newspapers have been running
pictures of the stacks (usually with evil lighting) saying that
"smoke" is rising blah blah. They've dug up old pictures with all 4
stacks running, and it's usually running at 25%; never more than 50%.
Of course it's mostly steam and some CO2- on a clear day you can see
nothing in the air discoloring it, just the refraction from the heat
and steam trails that rapidly dissipate. The stupid new gov't has been
making noises about closing the thermal plants *AND* the nuclear
plants- I don't know where they think the power would come from (maybe
we can buy it all and export the problem to less "responsible"
people). Bleh. Even with conservation measures and some
deindustrialization, population is growing at a healthy rate, and so
is consumption.

I assume you are talking about coal fired plants? They release particles
as well as mercury and radioactivity. There is no clean power.

--
Jerry wa2rkn no email @ present

 

[Winfield Hill]

Highland Ham wrote...

Having seen these machines near Palm Springs, they seem to be
rather small and of an older design.

I wonder if they shouldn't be replaced, that's prime wind territory.

In the Netherlands many farmers have them on their land, especially
in the northern provinces.

Do they rent the space to the wind-generator owners, or do they each
install and maintain them themselves? Is there a subsidized rate for
the sale of electricity to the grid?

Thanks,
- Win

whill_at_picovolt-dot-com

 

[Roger Gt]

X-No-Archive: yes
"Winfield Hill" wrote
: Highland Ham wrote...
: > Having seen these machines near Palm Springs, they seem to be
: > rather small and of an older design.

I was there last month. Some older and smaller wind-gens are still
in place, and working, there are three sizes common to the area
and the newer ones are immense! They're rated at 1.3mWh per year.

: I wonder if they shouldn't be replaced, that's prime wind
territory.

You mean it's windy there? Oh yes! They are being replaced as
they wear out. But they are not just tearing out thousands of
machines because the technology has a newer widget!

: > In the Netherlands many farmers have them on their land,
especially
: > in the northern provinces.

: Do they rent the space to the wind-generator owners, or do they
each
: install and maintain them themselves? Is there a subsidized
rate for
: the sale of electricity to the grid?
: Thanks, - Win

 

[Roger Gt]

X-No-Archive: yes
"Jan Panteltje" wrote
: "Watson A.Name wrote
: >"Jan Panteltje" wrote
<snip>
: > I'm more concerned about the next big earthquake.
: > Some scientists are predicting a big 6.something
: > earthquake in the Southern Ca. desert before Sept.

7.3 or greater!

: > I hope so, 'cause some of these immigrants might
: > consider going back to their point of origination.

: Yea, every place has it problems,
: here it is the water level, and dikes -so flooding-.
: Those immigrants are a workforce,
: illegal immigrants behave usually pretty
: well to avoid being exposed.

Is that why 18% of inmates in the Oregon prison system are
illegals?
Nearly one third of petty criminals in Southern Ca are also
illegals.
You haven't got the perspective! The sleep on the streets and
hang out at businesses hoping to be offered work and have
destroyed whole neighborhoods. The problem is spreading and it is
really bad the nearer you get to the boarder. Farmers along the
border have their crops and equipment stolen or spoiled and have
to maintain a security patrol to keep their homes from being
broken into. These people are criminals and do not respect any
laws.

: I personally think they have equal rights
: as the native Americans who stole the land
: from the Indians (spelling?).

I'll sent you a couple of Million of them, post your address.

The savages who lived here didn't own the land, and until the
Americans educated them they didn't even have a written language.
Some tribes traded in slavery and others practiced cannibalism.
Besides they cam from Asia originally and displaced the ones who
came over earlier. I would not expect you to fully understand the
history of the region, but your way off base!

: Zero rights? Or the right of the strongest.
: Was it not Reagan who pardoned most of them in California?

No... Regan did not and could not pardon Illegals, he didn't have
that power. He would have been recalled had he even suggested it,
and the problem is much worse now!

: Then they started paying taxes....

Not then, nor now! They are a major burden on the state to the
tune of about $4b a year!

: Was not California short of cash?

Not then, but now as a result of the Illegals and the Democrats in
the legislature we have a serious problem. There are those who
want to make California a socialist state, but the previous
Governor was recalled and some of the problems are being
corrected. However, until all illegals are deported there can't
be a permanent fix.

 

[Fred B. McGalliard]

Roger has been listening to those who have a nice tidy explanation of
everything. Sometime you want to try to explain to him how come our lettuce
is so cheap.

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:fLTgc.38581$Xr3.21091@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
....

Is that why 18% of inmates in the Oregon prison system are
illegals? Nearly one third of petty criminals in Southern Ca are also
illegals.

Actually, this probably has more to do with the great public defender they
are likely to get.

You haven't got the perspective! The sleep on the streets and
hang out at businesses hoping to be offered work and have
destroyed whole neighborhoods.

Well, I lived down in Orange County CA for a long time. I must admit that
there are some offensive things going on, but most of the illegals I know
about are not the quintessential Hobos of our modern society. Too much risk
in coming above "the man's" radar. They hang with their extended families,
and out in the farming districts where they get seasonal work. Big
population in Colorado for some reason.

The problem is spreading and it is
really bad the nearer you get to the boarder. Farmers along the
border have their crops and equipment stolen or spoiled and have
to maintain a security patrol to keep their homes from being
broken into. These people are criminals and do not respect any
laws.

Beg pardon. These people, except for course for the drug mules that we pay
to bring us our cheap drugs, are the brightest, best, and most ambitious of
a seriously abused population. We might solve 90% of our problems, at the
cost of a bit more expensive lettuce, by making them semi legals and
preventing their abuse.

.... (subject. Paying taxes.)

Not then, nor now! They are a major burden on the state to the
tune of about $4b a year!

Whew! Is that all? They are responsible for around 12 billion in company
proffits, of which they get around 3 billion, and out of that they pay
around half billion in sales taxes. Actually I expect their employers
collect federal and state tax from their salary, and pay it to themselves. I
think that overall our illegal emegrants likely provide us more benifit than
cost, and on top of that they are such an easy target for racial and
cultural hatred. Easy to blame our total failure to provide for our own poor
by calling them all illegals because some few are, horror of horrors, unable
to get legally admitted to our official version of heaven.

BTB, I just made up the numbers for the heck of it. Sounds reasonable to me,
so find better ones.

 

[Richard Henry]

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:fLTgc.38581$Xr3.21091@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...

The savages who lived here didn't own the land,

Who did? The King of Spain?

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:20:33 +0100) it happened "Highland Ham"
<xygm0csz.wvkn6wh@spamisbad.com> wrote in <rSCgc.657$Gq3.274@newsfe1-win>:

Now a wind generator would be cool, there are many windmils of huge size
here,
one next to my house (100m or so), a BIG one that replaced 5 smaller
ones...
It is on the coast, and it is always windy here...
How big is that thing?
JP
==============================
As I reported in a previous message its rated capacity is only 150 Watts.
6 Blades , 900 mm diameter, max rpm approx 250 , 3 phase generator ( DC
through one and a half standard 25 Amperes bridge rectifiers)
The thing sits on a street lamp post with an extension (approx 8 metres
above ground.

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH
Thx, sounds good.

I have a place for such a thing, and 1 meter diameter is not much.
Will think about this a bit
JP