Recirculating pump for instant hot water....

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 05:16, Ricky wrote:

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:57:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek
you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.

Not everybody can use those; they need an ample electricity supply.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 05:43, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 4:34 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not
willing to re-plumb their home to make use of a recirculating pump.

Of course not!  And, in many types of construction, it\'s simply not
practical.  You gonna jackhammer your slab just to run another length
of pipe?

Also,
recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain.

Here (SoAZ), the water has perceived value, even if not significant
monetary value (water is reasonably cheap... for the time being).
SWMBO empties any residual water in the kettle into her \"watering
pail\" each morning and uses that for plants, the bird bath, etc.

[I just add water and make another pot!  :> ]

We desalinate sea water, so water for the city is not scarce, but not
that cheap. I think it is subsidized for the time being.

In my area
the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.

Ditto.  Maybe even a greater multiplier, here (they hide the
costs in all sorts of different fees so it\'s hard to sort out
what the actual costs of each, are).

Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is
charged in the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.

....

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-13 14:17, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 4:42 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don\'t think the relief valve in the water heater \"wants\" to open
in all but extreme cases.  I don\'t think it is designed for \"multiple
applications\".

Oh, those I have seen can certainly be used often. Mine has a little
lever I can move with my finger and see water come out.

Yes, I can do that, as well.  But, I\'m not sure they are \"specified\"
with multiple uses in mind.  It\'s (here) an *exception* for a water heater
to need to vent in that manner.

And, if it decides that was \"once too often\" and decides to fail, you
are (here) left without domestic water (unless you can isolate the
water heater from the cold inlet AND hot outlet connections).

Our (tank) water heaters also have a drain at the bottom.  One
should periodically flush the tank to get rid of accumulating sediment.
But, the same hazard applies:  if the valve decides that you\'ve
opened it one too many times and refuses to reseal, completely,
you\'ve got a persistent water leak.

I seem to recall the plumber saying to test the valve periodically, so
it is not expected to fail. Anyway, the electric hot water tank itself
is not expected to last

That kind of pump (design from 1980) has a reservoir, typically a
metal sphere with an air filled rubber balloon inside. A pressure
switch connects the pump when pressure is low, disconnect when high.
Thus, the pressure oscillates.

That\'s similar to how the expansion tanks are designed, here (though
without
the switch/sensor).  The tank (metal) is sealed.  A bladder separates the
dry compartment from the wet.  The user pressurizes the dry compartment
(with air) to reflect the nominal water pressure.  Any increases in
pressure on the wet side (from the expansion of water as heated) force
the dry side to be compressed, providing more volume on the wet side.

Same thing.

Oh, the sensor is external, coupled to the pump; it is used in houses
using water from a well or reservoir in the cellar, or in tall buildings.

The \"air side\" has the same type of valve used in car wheels, to inflate
them. With the thing as empty of water as can be, the air side is
inflated to just a bit over the minimum water pressure (the value at
which the pump triggers on).

I think there is a design that couples a pump and an inverter, running
continuously, that keeps a constant pressure. But runs non stop. If
the water flow will be constant, it is a good alternative.

It is interesting to see how different places approach these \"utilities\".
In parts of MX, water is *delivered* (via a truck) to a storage tank
mounted high on your residence (roof).  Gravity feed so there\'s a limit
to the sort of pressure you expect.

On the roof? Well, yes, we had that at a house my parents had. But that
reservoir was just 300 or 400 litres. There was another reservoir under
the ground, some 14 cubic metres. An automatic pump filled the roof
reservoir as needed.

In this case, there was municipal water, but during the high season it
was a trickle. The big tank was underground precisely to capture that
trickle during the night ;-)

My parents eventually sold that beach place and bought another, which
had instead a single reservoir in the garage, with a pump, metal sphere
and pressure switch. Less hassle. If the municipal pressure was high
enough, the system deactivated automatically (just a non return valve).

And, more importantly, a limit to the amount of water you have available!
(I like REALLY long, hot showers so always decline invitations to visit
friends, there.  \"Oh, you can bathe in the ocean and a sponge bath to
remove
all of the SALT!\"  NoThankYouVeryMuch.  I left \"summer camp\" decades
ago!  :> )

:-D

We take for normal what we have

This is a dry area. Water came from wells, then from rivers up to 150 Km
away, and now from desalinization of the Mediterranean sea.

Next advancement here will be installing huge solar panels to power them
and thus lower the costs.

Regional right wing politicians want to bring water from other regions,
but the politicians in those regions, all sides, say no way in hell. So,
I guess that\'s a no, no matter how much they bitch here. Desalinization
it will be :-}

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 4:59:28 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-03-14 05:16, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:57:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek
you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.
Not everybody can use those; they need an ample electricity supply.

For a sink, it uses a standard 120V, 15A connection. Who doesn\'t have that??? Are you talking about some third world country? If they can\'t power this unit, how could they possibly power a hot water tank? Mine is 240V, 18A.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 10:45, Ricky wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 4:59:28 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-03-14 05:16, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:57:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek
you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.
Not everybody can use those; they need an ample electricity supply.

For a sink, it uses a standard 120V, 15A connection. Who doesn\'t have that??? Are you talking about some third world country? If they can\'t power this unit, how could they possibly power a hot water tank? Mine is 240V, 18A.

Most houses here have a contract that limits total instant power to 3.5
KW. It certainly is not a third world country. You can have more power,
up to 15 KW, but it is significantly more expensive.

Hot water tanks take 1 KW, maybe two if the tank is big. Mine I changed
to take 0.5 KW.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:


I had these pump before. So, a few observations: it only save money for gas water heater. Otherwise, it would be better to have electric heater closer to the faucel. The pump tends to lock up if not in use for long period of time. Suggestion is to run at least a few minutes per day.

Regarding cold water pipe recirculation, you would have to be careful about drinking from tap water. Hot water have more bacteria. You don\'t want to mix up hot and cold pipes.
I considered using waste water to preheat the cold water coming into
the water heater. There are gadgets to do that, and our incoming water
is always cold. But it would be a hassle with decades to pay back.

That\'s asking for trouble, wastewater is full of crud. A better way is to use an auxiliary uninsulated bladder between the street and heater tank, to store water long enough for it to come up to room temperature, most of the time. You have then reduced the heat loading by about (110-115 oF hot output )- (room temperature) difference x 8 lbs/gal x 1BTU/ (lb oF) x aux tank gallons. Of course, during heating system, the aux tank loads your heating system, but it helps during cooling season which makes no difference to you living in the 19th century.

Hot water is for health purposes non-potable. Elevated temperatures accelerate all kinds of corrosion and leaching mechanisms that contaminate the water. This means that whatever system you use, hot and its cold feed should be isolated with a backflow preventer valve.

The hot water recirculation system is as old as the hills, having been in use for 100 years in commercial and hospitality settings.

On-demand or point-of-use hot water heaters are problematic. For one thing they all have a minimum flow rate requirement to energize the heater, and this is variable and kind of on the high side for most of them, in the 0.5- 1.0 GPM range usually. Modern faucets are mostly flow rate limited to 1.0GPM, so you need to turn the water on \'full blast\' to get heat- now how much water is that going to save... Bathtub spigots, at 2.0 GPM shouldn\'t be a problem, but showers just might be. Then there is the apparently insurmountable issue of scale formation and periodic maintenance. Who needs that?

Nominal 1/2\" pipe is a crossection of 0.00136 ft^2 so that a 1 ft length holds 7.5 gal/ ft^3 = 0.010 gallons. A 50\' length would only by 0.5 gals, and a wait time of 30 seconds from a 1.0 GPM faucet to flush it. But then that\'s an eternity for some people.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 13:07, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

....

> On-demand or point-of-use hot water heaters are problematic. For one thing they all have a minimum flow rate requirement to energize the heater, and this is variable and kind of on the high side for most of them, in the 0.5- 1.0 GPM range usually. Modern faucets are mostly flow rate limited to 1.0GPM, so you need to turn the water on \'full blast\' to get heat- now how much water is that going to save... Bathtub spigots, at 2.0 GPM shouldn\'t be a problem, but showers just might be. Then there is the apparently insurmountable issue of scale formation and periodic maintenance. Who needs that?

They are not problematic here. That is, every system has its advantages
and cons.

There is a minimum flow, yes, but that\'s not a problem with modern
electronically controlled units.

There are two main types here: constant gas flow, or dynamically
controlled to keep a constant water temperature.

Constant gas flow is cheaper. There is a manual regulator. The
temperature changes with the water flow: half water flow, double
temperature. The electronics can run from batteries.

The other is significantly more expensive. The heater needs electricity
for the controller and actuators. It is typically double use: it also
drives the house heating (hot water radiators).

The current generation are called \"condenser type\". The fumes exhaust is
at almost ambient temperature, so that the water vapor condenses into
water. This type requires that the gas is good quality, and yearly
maintenance, because that water can be acidic and corrosive. But uses
much less gas than \"normal\" heaters.


Scale formation? I haven\'t hit that problem yet. Depends on the city, I
guess. They last typically about 15 years, which is about the same for
electric heaters.

Mandatory inspection every 5 years (for every type of gas installation).


It is cheap: my unit spends one butane bottle (13KG) every two months.
Sanitary water only, not condensing, no automatic temperature
regulation, one person.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 8:42:16 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-03-14 13:07, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
...
On-demand or point-of-use hot water heaters are problematic. For one thing they all have a minimum flow rate requirement to energize the heater, and this is variable and kind of on the high side for most of them, in the 0..5- 1.0 GPM range usually. Modern faucets are mostly flow rate limited to 1..0GPM, so you need to turn the water on \'full blast\' to get heat- now how much water is that going to save... Bathtub spigots, at 2.0 GPM shouldn\'t be a problem, but showers just might be. Then there is the apparently insurmountable issue of scale formation and periodic maintenance. Who needs that?
They are not problematic here. That is, every system has its advantages
and cons.

There is a minimum flow, yes, but that\'s not a problem with modern
electronically controlled units.

There are two main types here: constant gas flow, or dynamically
controlled to keep a constant water temperature.

Constant gas flow is cheaper. There is a manual regulator. The
temperature changes with the water flow: half water flow, double
temperature. The electronics can run from batteries.

The other is significantly more expensive. The heater needs electricity
for the controller and actuators. It is typically double use: it also
drives the house heating (hot water radiators).

The current generation are called \"condenser type\". The fumes exhaust is
at almost ambient temperature, so that the water vapor condenses into
water. This type requires that the gas is good quality, and yearly
maintenance, because that water can be acidic and corrosive. But uses
much less gas than \"normal\" heaters.


Scale formation? I haven\'t hit that problem yet. Depends on the city, I
guess. They last typically about 15 years, which is about the same for
electric heaters.

Mandatory inspection every 5 years (for every type of gas installation).


It is cheap: my unit spends one butane bottle (13KG) every two months.
Sanitary water only, not condensing, no automatic temperature
regulation, one person.

That\'s a different on-demand. There are whole house on-demand but I don\'t think they work spectacularly well because they usually install several of them. The type you have is good when you only have one or two faucets on it at one time. The modern water heater heater tanks are so good at retaining heat, I don\'t see any advantage to on-demand when you still have the heat loss problem through long runs of pipe from the heater to point of use. And you can\'t beat the price when they\'re a high volume commodity.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 2:24 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

It is interesting to see how different places approach these \"utilities\".
In parts of MX, water is *delivered* (via a truck) to a storage tank
mounted high on your residence (roof).  Gravity feed so there\'s a limit
to the sort of pressure you expect.

On the roof? Well, yes, we had that at a house my parents had. But that
reservoir was just 300 or 400 litres. There was another reservoir under the
ground, some 14 cubic metres. An automatic pump filled the roof reservoir as
needed.

Ah, that would make more sense! As I\'ve never taken any of my friends
up on their offers to \"spend a week by the sea\", I\'m only surmising what
they have. I\'ve heard reference to \"The Water Truck\" and \"on the roof\".
My assumption was that the tank was on the roof but it could also be
that\'s just how it\'s filled (save the trouble of having to leave the
vehicle to position hoses, etc.)

In this case, there was municipal water, but during the high season it was a
trickle. The big tank was underground precisely to capture that trickle during
the night ;-)

My parents eventually sold that beach place and bought another, which had
instead a single reservoir in the garage, with a pump, metal sphere and
pressure switch. Less hassle. If the municipal pressure was high enough, the
system deactivated automatically (just a non return valve).

And, more importantly, a limit to the amount of water you have available!
(I like REALLY long, hot showers so always decline invitations to visit
friends, there.  \"Oh, you can bathe in the ocean and a sponge bath to remove
all of the SALT!\"  NoThankYouVeryMuch.  I left \"summer camp\" decades ago!  :> )

:-D

We take for normal what we have

Sadly, yes. I recall, growing up, it was common to \"sweep the driveway\"
with a hose (instead of a broom). Someone doing that here would promptly
be told to stop (by concerned neighbors).

This is a dry area. Water came from wells, then from rivers up to 150 Km away,
and now from desalinization of the Mediterranean sea.

Our water source is ground water, augmented by water from the colorado
river via the Central Arizona Project (CAP) -- a 300+ mile man-made canal
that transports water the length (N-S) of the state.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Arizona_Project>

As water is becoming scarcer (Lakes Mead and Powell are at historic lows),
there is heightened concern over water supplies. In most (AZ) municipalities,
you have to ensure a 100 year water supply (what bank would want to finance
development if the area wouldn\'t be habitable when the balance comes due?)

Some developers have skirted the law by developing \"subdivisions\" of *5*
homes (too small for water supply regulations to apply -- even though
they put up a dozen of these developments on the same parcel of land!
(ah, but then it would be 50-100 homes and subject to legal constraints!)
The homeowners purchasing, there, suddenly find themselves without
access to water.

[Seems to me, you\'d want to be sure of that before sinking a few hundred
kilobucks into an investment!]

Next advancement here will be installing huge solar panels to power them and
thus lower the costs.

That\'s the logical solution, here, as the Gulf of California is just
~150 miles, as the crow flies, from our southern border. And, we have
an overabundance of sunshine making solar very practical -- esp on such
a large scale.

And, it sidesteps the energy storage issue; you \"store\" the energy \"in\" the
desalinated water which is easy to transport and store (no worries of
\"oil spills\", etc.)

But, this would require a long-term agreement with MX -- and, the US (esp
AZ) is hostile towards their state/peoples...

Finally, someone would want someone ELSE to pay for it!

Regional right wing politicians want to bring water from other regions, but the
politicians in those regions, all sides, say no way in hell. So, I guess that\'s
a no, no matter how much they bitch here. Desalinization it will be :-}

The real solution is to adjust water usage. I still see people with
natural grass, here. And, swimming pools that lose 6 *ft* of depth to
evaporation, annually (the bigger the pool, the greater the volume).
Of course, *covering* the water cuts down those losses immensely
(and gives you a \"heated pool\") but that requires 10 minutes of
effort, daily. Far more than most folks are (apparently) willing
to spend!

And, people watering with \"spray\" irrigation (40% loss).

Of course, growing cotton in the desert is equally brain damaged.

[We\'ve prepared for our citrus to be curtailed by planting smaller
varieties -- less losses to transpiration... less fruit, too! :< ]

But, this part of the country is accustomed to being water wary.
Other parts are going to really find it hard to make the adjustment.
No, you won\'t be washing your car in your driveway. And, maybe that
lawn is a thing of the past.

Utah has been notorious for being water wasters. Now, I see,
their \"Great\" Salt Lake is likely to disappear, in a few *years*
(not \"generations\"). With the downside of exposing lots of
*dried* nasty compounds to wind-blown dispersal in their metro
area. Ooops! Kinda like pissing in your own sink...

 

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 2:04 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Here (SoAZ), the water has perceived value, even if not significant
monetary value (water is reasonably cheap... for the time being).
SWMBO empties any residual water in the kettle into her \"watering
pail\" each morning and uses that for plants, the bird bath, etc.

[I just add water and make another pot!  :> ]

We desalinate sea water, so water for the city is not scarce, but not that
cheap. I think it is subsidized for the time being.

Yes, as I said elsewhere, that\'s the logical way to go, *here*
(given that we have access to other \"cheap\" energy resources).

The city already uses \"reclaimed\" water for irrigation of
municipal properties (parks, etc.). Yet, seems to think they
need not be as scrupulous with *its* use (e.g., watering during
daytime hours) -- likely because they have more than they
can find use for (also golf courses).

It\'s only a matter of time before we see it introduced to our
domestic water supply.

New construction favors grey water recycling (local irrigation).
But, its one of those things that is hard to retrofit to a home
unless the floorplan is amenable.

In my area
the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.

Ditto.  Maybe even a greater multiplier, here (they hide the
costs in all sorts of different fees so it\'s hard to sort out
what the actual costs of each, are).

Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is charged in
the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.

Many have pools, here, and summer losses (evaporation) would unduly
penalize those folks -- \"why am I paying to treat this water when it\'s
not going down the drain??\" Likewise for irrigation the demands of which
greatly increase in the summer months (summer starts in April).

They split out the garbage cost a few years ago -- as a way to add another
\"fee\" (which can be raised without involving \"Water\")

 

[Lamont Cranston]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 8:50:28 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

In my area
the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.

Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is charged in
the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.

They split out the garbage cost a few years ago -- as a way to add another
\"fee\" (which can be raised without involving \"Water\")

Looking at my bill, the sewer charge is 2.05 times the water bill.
Garbage pickup (required by the city) is another $36 a month.
I may be working my way out of the pump, I\'m looking a a single basin sink,
this will move the drain piping away from one side of the cabinet. With that freed up
space, I would have room for a water heater under the sink. Already have electricity.
This doesn\'t take care of the showers, but this whole thing started with me wanting
instant hot water at the kitchen sink and then expanded from there.
Now I\'m looking at a new sink, faucet, soap dispenser, drain, drop in cutting board,
and in sink draining rack. It is expanding in price.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

Sheesh, the nice sink I am looking at, is sold by,
Business Name: ChangshashiDuoziMuxingrenXiaoshouYouxianGongsi
Makes me wonder!
https://www.amazon.com/HOROW-Workstation-Topmount-Stainless-Accessories/dp/B0BX2L7T64?ref_=v_sp_product_dpx
And zero reviews.
Mikek

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2023 05:07:01 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:


I had these pump before. So, a few observations: it only save money for gas water heater. Otherwise, it would be better to have electric heater closer to the faucel. The pump tends to lock up if not in use for long period of time. Suggestion is to run at least a few minutes per day.

Regarding cold water pipe recirculation, you would have to be careful about drinking from tap water. Hot water have more bacteria. You don\'t want to mix up hot and cold pipes.
I considered using waste water to preheat the cold water coming into
the water heater. There are gadgets to do that, and our incoming water
is always cold. But it would be a hassle with decades to pay back.

That\'s asking for trouble, wastewater is full of crud. A better way is to use an auxiliary uninsulated bladder between the street and heater tank, to store water long enough for it to come up to room temperature, most of the time.

Where would the heat come from?

> You have then reduced the heat loading by about (110-115 oF hot output )- (room temperature) difference x 8 lbs/gal x 1BTU/ (lb oF) x aux tank gallons. Of course, during heating system, the aux tank loads your heating system, but it helps during cooling season which makes no difference to you living in the 19th century.

We don\'t have a cooling season. We leave the heat on all year.

 

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 8:25 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 8:50:28 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

In my area
the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.

Here, I think they assume it is equal to our water intake, so it is charged in
the same invoice at some rate. Garbage too. Varies per city.

They split out the garbage cost a few years ago -- as a way to add another
\"fee\" (which can be raised without involving \"Water\")

Looking at my bill, the sewer charge is 2.05 times the water bill.
Garbage pickup (required by the city) is another $36 a month.

I think ours is $14. When we moved here, we had TWICE *weekly* pickups.
And, you could put *anything* on the curb (furniture, tires, etc.)
(used) Motor oil was picked up and poured into a tank on the truck.

Over time, that settled in at one pickup per week, twice annual
\"bulk\" pickups. Hazardous materials (oil, electronics, tires, etc.)
were dropped off at several spots around town. Recyclables (paper,
tin, cans, etc.) bi-weekly pickups.

Now, you have to drop off glass at one of a dozen sites around
town AND it needs to have been washed prior to dropoff -- did I
mention water is a scarce resource? (so, folks just toss it in
with their trash)

I may be working my way out of the pump, I\'m looking a a single basin sink,
this will move the drain piping away from one side of the cabinet. With that freed up
space, I would have room for a water heater under the sink. Already have electricity.

I added several circuits in the kitchen. Dishwasher, frig, disposal,
microwave, exhaust fan, etc. all compete for limited power (in addition
to the countertop circuits -- no, why would I want the microwave to eat
up that resource??)

The problem with hot water heating is you can\'t easily control
usage. You\'d hate, for example, to turn on the disposal and pop
a breaker because the water heater *happened* to be on, at the time.
Or, the dishwasher was preheating water for a cycle...

This doesn\'t take care of the showers, but this whole thing started with me wanting
instant hot water at the kitchen sink and then expanded from there.

My shower solution is just to let water run down the drain while I\'m
gettin\' nekid. Wasteful, yes. But, so are 30 minute showers! :>

Now I\'m looking at a new sink, faucet, soap dispenser, drain, drop in cutting board,
and in sink draining rack. It is expanding in price.

Projects expand to consume all of the time and money available! :>

Today is a \"play\" day; off to the auction to see what other shit^H^H^H
good stuff I can bring home to clutter up the house! :-/

And, being a play day, ice cream for breakfast! (Oooo, this is SO good!
Butter pecan -- 1/4 pound of butter in a quart batch!)

 

[Don Y]

On 3/14/2023 8:30 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

Sheesh, the nice sink I am looking at, is sold by,
Business Name: ChangshashiDuoziMuxingrenXiaoshouYouxianGongsi
Makes me wonder!
https://www.amazon.com/HOROW-Workstation-Topmount-Stainless-Accessories/dp/B0BX2L7T64?ref_=v_sp_product_dpx
And zero reviews.

That\'s Chinese for \"Acme\".

 

[Ricky]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 6:11:27 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-03-14 10:45, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 4:59:28 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-03-14 05:16, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:57:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek
you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.
Not everybody can use those; they need an ample electricity supply.

For a sink, it uses a standard 120V, 15A connection. Who doesn\'t have that??? Are you talking about some third world country? If they can\'t power this unit, how could they possibly power a hot water tank? Mine is 240V, 18A.
Most houses here have a contract that limits total instant power to 3.5
KW. It certainly is not a third world country. You can have more power,
up to 15 KW, but it is significantly more expensive.

Hot water tanks take 1 KW, maybe two if the tank is big. Mine I changed
to take 0.5 KW.

It must take forever to heat a tank of water. Sounds rather dysfunctional. My microwave oven uses more than 0.5 kW and it is some 40 years old. A hair dryer uses 1.44 kW. I guess you have to turn off all sorts of things to use a stove. But then maybe you have gas. No, if that were true, you would have a gas hot water heater.

Sorry, this is not very easy for me to digest. The water uses the same amount of energy to heat up if you do it at 0.5 kW, or 5 kW. I just can\'t picture how it can be practical at 0.5 kW. I can take a shower and have a tank full of hot water in an hour. At 500 watts, it takes 10 hours.

I just can\'t picture how this is useful. Ok, not third world. Maybe world 2.5.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Tabby]

On Tuesday, 14 March 2023 at 17:03:41 UTC, Ricky wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 6:11:27 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-03-14 10:45, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 4:59:28 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-03-14 05:16, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:57:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek
you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.
Not everybody can use those; they need an ample electricity supply.

For a sink, it uses a standard 120V, 15A connection. Who doesn\'t have that??? Are you talking about some third world country? If they can\'t power this unit, how could they possibly power a hot water tank? Mine is 240V, 18A.
Most houses here have a contract that limits total instant power to 3.5
KW. It certainly is not a third world country. You can have more power,
up to 15 KW, but it is significantly more expensive.

Hot water tanks take 1 KW, maybe two if the tank is big. Mine I changed
to take 0.5 KW.
It must take forever to heat a tank of water. Sounds rather dysfunctional.. My microwave oven uses more than 0.5 kW and it is some 40 years old. A hair dryer uses 1.44 kW. I guess you have to turn off all sorts of things to use a stove. But then maybe you have gas. No, if that were true, you would have a gas hot water heater.

Sorry, this is not very easy for me to digest. The water uses the same amount of energy to heat up if you do it at 0.5 kW, or 5 kW. I just can\'t picture how it can be practical at 0.5 kW. I can take a shower and have a tank full of hot water in an hour. At 500 watts, it takes 10 hours.

I just can\'t picture how this is useful. Ok, not third world. Maybe world 2.5.

--

Rick C.

Years ago I saw flats each on a 5A feed. Residents had problems. Solution was to mark current draw on every plug & not exceed 5A total. Perfectly doable, though hardly ideal.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 13:58, Fred Bloggs wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 8:42:16 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-03-14 13:07, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 6:06:31 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 14:47:19 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:
...
On-demand or point-of-use hot water heaters are problematic. For one thing they all have a minimum flow rate requirement to energize the heater, and this is variable and kind of on the high side for most of them, in the 0.5- 1.0 GPM range usually. Modern faucets are mostly flow rate limited to 1.0GPM, so you need to turn the water on \'full blast\' to get heat- now how much water is that going to save... Bathtub spigots, at 2.0 GPM shouldn\'t be a problem, but showers just might be. Then there is the apparently insurmountable issue of scale formation and periodic maintenance. Who needs that?
They are not problematic here. That is, every system has its advantages
and cons.

There is a minimum flow, yes, but that\'s not a problem with modern
electronically controlled units.

There are two main types here: constant gas flow, or dynamically
controlled to keep a constant water temperature.

Constant gas flow is cheaper. There is a manual regulator. The
temperature changes with the water flow: half water flow, double
temperature. The electronics can run from batteries.

The other is significantly more expensive. The heater needs electricity
for the controller and actuators. It is typically double use: it also
drives the house heating (hot water radiators).

The current generation are called \"condenser type\". The fumes exhaust is
at almost ambient temperature, so that the water vapor condenses into
water. This type requires that the gas is good quality, and yearly
maintenance, because that water can be acidic and corrosive. But uses
much less gas than \"normal\" heaters.


Scale formation? I haven\'t hit that problem yet. Depends on the city, I
guess. They last typically about 15 years, which is about the same for
electric heaters.

Mandatory inspection every 5 years (for every type of gas installation).


It is cheap: my unit spends one butane bottle (13KG) every two months.
Sanitary water only, not condensing, no automatic temperature
regulation, one person.

That\'s a different on-demand. There are whole house on-demand but I don\'t think they work spectacularly well because they usually install several of them. The type you have is good when you only have one or two faucets on it at one time. The modern water heater heater tanks are so good at retaining heat, I don\'t see any advantage to on-demand when you still have the heat loss problem through long runs of pipe from the heater to point of use. And you can\'t beat the price when they\'re a high volume commodity.

No, the system I talk about is whole house on demand, gas fired. It is
very common here. One per home, typically a kitchen and two bathrooms.

Granted, for simultaneous use it better be the dynamically controlled
expensive type or the temperature will fluctuate a lot.

The advantage is price, and endless hot water.

I have never seen here a gas fired hot water tank, only electric.
Instant on demand, electric powered, is very rare, I have never seen
anyone use it; only seen it at one hardware store.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-03-14 18:03, Ricky wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 6:11:27 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-03-14 10:45, Ricky wrote:
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 4:59:28 AM UTC-4, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-03-14 05:16, Ricky wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:57:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek
you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.
Not everybody can use those; they need an ample electricity supply.

For a sink, it uses a standard 120V, 15A connection. Who doesn\'t have that??? Are you talking about some third world country? If they can\'t power this unit, how could they possibly power a hot water tank? Mine is 240V, 18A.
Most houses here have a contract that limits total instant power to 3.5
KW. It certainly is not a third world country. You can have more power,
up to 15 KW, but it is significantly more expensive.

Hot water tanks take 1 KW, maybe two if the tank is big. Mine I changed
to take 0.5 KW.

It must take forever to heat a tank of water. Sounds rather dysfunctional. My microwave oven uses more than 0.5 kW and it is some 40 years old. A hair dryer uses 1.44 kW. I guess you have to turn off all sorts of things to use a stove. But then maybe you have gas. No, if that were true, you would have a gas hot water heater.

Sorry, this is not very easy for me to digest. The water uses the same amount of energy to heat up if you do it at 0.5 kW, or 5 kW. I just can\'t picture how it can be practical at 0.5 kW. I can take a shower and have a tank full of hot water in an hour. At 500 watts, it takes 10 hours.

Actually, it takes about four hours, the tank has 50 litres. Runs on a
timer during the night, if I activate it. I prefer the gas fired on
demand hot water system (yes, I have both systems). There is only one
person in the house, I don\'t need the hot water tank to reheat till next
day.

I just can\'t picture how this is useful. Ok, not third world. Maybe world 2.5.

No, you simply are wasteful and think the rest of the world runs the
same way

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 10:12:02 PM UTC-5, Carlos E.R. wrote:

No, you simply are wasteful and think the rest of the world runs the
same way

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Carlos you are correct, we live in a country of abundance, we can get almost anything we want in a few days.
We have everything at our fingertips.
We have time and money to waste and there is no doubt we do waste both. Just look on Youtube for things we GET to waste our time and money on!
My wife is from a 3rd world country, but has been here over 40 years, she did take on some of my wasteful ways over the years although was always frugal. But now in retirement, I notice she is reverting back to more frugal ways, worried about water use, keeping heating/cooling costs low, saving rain water in buckets, and having a garden to grow some food. She picks up items others throw away, because she knows with a little care,
she or I can fix it and she will sell it to someone, she has a large network of people that she knows. A few days ago she wheeled home a 22\" self propelled lawn mower. It had a plastic guard that was broken, I said I wasn\'t going to spend any time fixing the plastic if it was any trouble to start, \"darn it\" it started on the 3rd pull. a few sq inches of scrap aluminum and 8 woods screws and the plastic was fixed.
Mikek