Recirculating pump for instant hot water....

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:23:01 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

This:

https://chilipeppersales.com/collections/frontpage/products/chilipepper-on-demand-hot-water-recirculating-pump-model-cp9000-b-version-wireless-wired

implements your solution -- but at the point-of-use end of the line.

*If* you have (or can get) power, there, then I suspect it may be a
more adaptable approach to the problem. I.e., sense the temperature
at the point-of-use and use that to control the pump located *there*
(instead of trying to signal a pump located at the water heater).

OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
a rebuilt pump with only the temp sensor included and two remote controls, white and brown. I\'ve been over the site and can\'t find any new
pumps with accessories. I expect a time will come when Grundfos/Watts comes out with a remote system for pump control, but they seem pretty
late to implement it.
Mikek

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,

Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn\'t go looking to research other
offerings.

How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just \"packaging\"?

I.e., if you put the \"smarts\" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
capabilities?

[I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
to implement. OTOH, those devices could just be electrically operated
valves with a recirculation pump at the water heater (I already have
a network drop, there, so would have to add more at each sink/shower/etc.)]

> a rebuilt pump with only the temp sensor included and two remote controls,

Yeah, it looks to be a step above \"garage shop\". :<

white and brown. I\'ve been over the site and can\'t find any new pumps with
accessories. I expect a time will come when Grundfos/Watts comes out with a
remote system for pump control, but they seem pretty late to implement it.

I\'ve been waiting for \"quality\" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the \"manual\"
valves).

And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
(the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)

 

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn\'t go looking to research other
offerings.

How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just \"packaging\"?

It senses the temperature at the farthest sink and turns the pump on or off..
The others have a thermal valve that closes to stop recirculation, but it does not shut off the pump.
This could be done with a temp sensor at the sink and wiring or an RF link back to the magic black box that
controls operation of the pump.

I.e., if you put the \"smarts\" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
capabilities?

Uhm, not sure you explained that right, but yes, there is a way to control the operation of the pump by the temperature of the water at the sink.

[I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
to implement.

I\'m a little suspicious of my kitchen sink, it is only 6-1/2 ft from the water heater, but
it takes 0.87 gallons to get hot water, So, I\'m not sure water the pipe route is.

OTOH, those devices could just be electrically operated

valves with a recirculation pump at the water heater (I already have
a network drop, there, so would have to add more at each sink/shower/etc.)]
a rebuilt pump with only the temp sensor included and two remote controls,
Yeah, it looks to be a step above \"garage shop\". :

white and brown. I\'ve been over the site and can\'t find any new pumps with
accessories. I expect a time will come when Grundfos/Watts comes out with a
remote system for pump control, but they seem pretty late to implement it.
I\'ve been waiting for \"quality\" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the \"manual\"
valves).

And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
(the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)

Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
would be no mixing of hot and cold water.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

The price is right, the amperage is not right for most home wiring, the safety and quality have to be questioned.
But at $2.87 with free shipping for a 3000 watt heater...
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.design/c/8_HOPS6CbrM
If I had any use for it I\'d waste $3.
Mikek

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 8:58 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn\'t go looking to research other
offerings.

How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just \"packaging\"?

It senses the temperature at the farthest sink and turns the pump on or off.
The others have a thermal valve that closes to stop recirculation, but it does not shut off the pump.
This could be done with a temp sensor at the sink and wiring or an RF link back to the magic black box that
controls operation of the pump.

Yes, my point was if you built a block diagram of *both* solutions,
would there be any real differences? is it *just* about \"location
of components\"?

I.e., if you put the \"smarts\" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
capabilities?

Uhm, not sure you explained that right, but yes, there is a way to control the operation of the pump by the temperature of the water at the sink.

I.e., instead of having the \"device\" at the heater (with all of its
smarts, rf link, etc.), imagine moving the smarts and pump to the \"sink\".
Has anything changed, other than the location?

[I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
to implement.

I\'m a little suspicious of my kitchen sink, it is only 6-1/2 ft from the water heater, but
it takes 0.87 gallons to get hot water, So, I\'m not sure water the pipe route is.

Our water heater is sort-of centrally located. But, the \"loads\"
go off in different directions.

The plans for the house don\'t show how the water was routed
so I can\'t assume anything (without deliberate measurement).

Of course, the pipes are under the slab so can\'t be visually
examined. And, not insulated so heavily affected by the
soil and slab temperatures. (e.g., no cold water in summer!)

I\'ve been waiting for \"quality\" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the \"manual\"
valves).

And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
(the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)

Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
would be no mixing of hot and cold water.

Sorry, different application. I plan on installing \"shut off\" valves at
the water entrance to the residence (i.e., shut off ALL the water if you
detect a leak).

Thus, you have to decide what the \"safe\" condition should be -- err on
the side of preventing a leak (in the absence of power) *or* err on
the side of allowing water to flow DESPITE a leak (consider a residence
that is only occupied for a few months out of the year).

[Or, consider a malicious actor turning off power to the residence
KNOWING how the valve will behave in that condition.]

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 9:42 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

The price is right, the amperage is not right for most home wiring, the safety and quality have to be questioned.
But at $2.87 with free shipping for a 3000 watt heater...
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.design/c/8_HOPS6CbrM
If I had any use for it I\'d waste $3.

\"If it SOUNDS too good to be true...\"

We\'ve been looking for a *hand* mixer (I\'ve finally convinced SWMBO
that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
the only one who uses the damn thing!).

Amusing to see these \"no name\" brands advertising *600*W motors...
who think The Masses will appreciate that it is \"all copper\".

\"Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That\'s really important!
The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors...\"

 

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 11:55:20 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 8:58 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 9:11:47 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 3/13/2023 6:50 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
OK, that seems reasonable, but I question the company. All I find on their
site is a rebuilt pump with all the accessories,
Understood. I just stumbled upon it -- didn\'t go looking to research other
offerings.

How is this different from a heater mounted pump? Or, is it just \"packaging\"?

It senses the temperature at the farthest sink and turns the pump on or off.
The others have a thermal valve that closes to stop recirculation, but it does not shut off the pump.
This could be done with a temp sensor at the sink and wiring or an RF link back to the magic black box that
controls operation of the pump.
Yes, my point was if you built a block diagram of *both* solutions,
would there be any real differences? is it *just* about \"location
of components\"?
I.e., if you put the \"smarts\" in a little box next to the *heater* mounted
pump -- but mounted at the point-of-use -- would there be any difference in
capabilities?

Uhm, not sure you explained that right, but yes, there is a way to control the operation of the pump by the temperature of the water at the sink.
I.e., instead of having the \"device\" at the heater (with all of its
smarts, rf link, etc.), imagine moving the smarts and pump to the \"sink\".
Has anything changed, other than the location?

I don\'t think there is any difference. But you would need a temperature sensor and magic box to control the pump and
is you have a thermal valve it would not be used. I am curious how the pump at the water heater affects the flow rate.
I have not read any complaints about reduced flow rate, so I suspet it is minimal.

[I should look into this for our home. But, the plumbing places each
point-of-use on a separate spur so would likely need multiple devices
to implement.

I\'m a little suspicious of my kitchen sink, it is only 6-1/2 ft from the water heater, but
it takes 0.87 gallons to get hot water, So, I\'m not sure water the pipe route is.

Our water heater is sort-of centrally located. But, the \"loads\"
go off in different directions.

The plans for the house don\'t show how the water was routed
so I can\'t assume anything (without deliberate measurement).

Of course, the pipes are under the slab so can\'t be visually
examined. And, not insulated so heavily affected by the
soil and slab temperatures. (e.g., no cold water in summer!)

Same here, on a slab. Florida.

I\'ve been waiting for \"quality\" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the \"manual\"
valves).

Is that for flood protection?

And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
(the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)

Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
would be no mixing of hot and cold water.

Sorry, different application. I plan on installing \"shut off\" valves at
the water entrance to the residence (i.e., shut off ALL the water if you
detect a leak).

I just lift the cover over my water meter and shut it off. I have a buddy that got a whopping water bill one month,
but didn\'t see any water in his yard. He end up poking around with a rod until he found a soft spot , dug it up and found the break.

Thus, you have to decide what the \"safe\" condition should be -- err on
the side of preventing a leak (in the absence of power) *or* err on
the side of allowing water to flow DESPITE a leak (consider a residence
that is only occupied for a few months out of the year).

[Or, consider a malicious actor turning off power to the residence
KNOWING how the valve will behave in that condition.]

 

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 12:07:02 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 9:42 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
The price is right, the amperage is not right for most home wiring, the safety and quality have to be questioned.
But at $2.87 with free shipping for a 3000 watt heater...
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.design/c/8_HOPS6CbrM
If I had any use for it I\'d waste $3.
\"If it SOUNDS too good to be true...\"

Other sellers have it at $60, must be Red isn\'t selling, so it is discounted!

We\'ve been looking for a *hand* mixer (I\'ve finally convinced SWMBO
that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
the only one who uses the damn thing!).

If you have the Kitchen Aid mixer, take it apart and regrease it, We did that 10 years ago and passed it on to our daughter.

Amusing to see these \"no name\" brands advertising *600*W motors...
who think The Masses will appreciate that it is \"all copper\".

\"Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That\'s really important!
The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors...\"

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 10:08 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

I.e., instead of having the \"device\" at the heater (with all of its
smarts, rf link, etc.), imagine moving the smarts and pump to the \"sink\".
Has anything changed, other than the location?

I don\'t think there is any difference. But you would need a temperature sensor
and magic box to control the pump and is you have a thermal valve it would not be used.

Yes. I\'m assuming there\'s a magic box regardless. It\'s just the
amount and type of magic that\'s up for debate.

I am curious how the pump at the water heater affects the flow rate.
I have not read any complaints about reduced flow rate, so I suspet it is minimal.

Dunno. I suspect you could form an equivalence *electrical* model.
But, without any specifics...

E.g., the instant hot water devices that I mentioned have a dreadfully
low output rate. If that was piped into a (high!) pressure water
line, would any of the water actually *mix*?

I\'ve been waiting for \"quality\" shutoff valves for the washing machine/dryer
that could be mounted in the wall (instead of downstream from the \"manual\"
valves).

Is that for flood protection?

Yes. But, also to protect the hoses connecting the appliances
to the water supply. E.g., we habitually turn off the water
valves \"on the wall\" when the appliances aren\'t in use just
to keep the hoses from having to cope with that pressure
while *not* in use.

The \"main\" valve I mentioned is intended to protect the house.

Anything that could result in unintended water flow. E.g., the
neighbor\'s dogs once broke their irrigation system. Water gushing
out at whatever rate the 1/2 copper pipe could support.

Of course, THEY were at work, at the time. And, yours truly wasn\'t
going to risk climbing over the wall and dealing with the dogs
just to save them some money (and a soaked yard -- as well as two
soaked dogs!)

Here, the fill line to the guest bathroom ruptured one evening.
Thankfully, I was able to catch it before it made a mess of
everything.

Imagine if you\'re \"away\" -- possibly for MONTHS (a neighbor just
left for their \"summer home\", today. We\'ll see them again in
October. I know they don\'t shut off the water main because
their plantings wouldn\'t see any water in their absence!)

And, on a larger scale, an affordable shutoff for the main supply
(the motorized ball valves are pricey and have issues with operation
during power outages -- do you want your water supply left on? or off?)

Not sure I understand what you are trying to do, but if I went with an electrically operated valve,
it would go between the hot and cold at the farthest sink, in that position it would not effect water
flow when no electricity is present. Also, I would expect a valve to be normally closed so without power there
would be no mixing of hot and cold water.

Sorry, different application. I plan on installing \"shut off\" valves at
the water entrance to the residence (i.e., shut off ALL the water if you
detect a leak).

I just lift the cover over my water meter and shut it off. I have a buddy that got a whopping water bill one month,
but didn\'t see any water in his yard. He end up poking around with a rod until he found a soft spot , dug it up and found the break.

I want this to act unattended. Either because the house is unoccupied
*or* because the occupant isn\'t savvy enough to see there\'s a problem
(until its too late).

Our shutoff (at the meter) is frozen \"on\". I *might* be able to
move it the quarter turn to \"off\". But, I also might break
the sumabitch in the process. If it\'s *after* the meter, then
it would be my dime!

So, I installed a ball valve *at* the house which I use to
MANUALLY shut off the \"loads\". There are two more, downstream
from that, to shut off the house and the yard, respectively.
But, I\'d like to automate these and rely on the manual valves
just as a last resort (or, when servicing the system)

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 10:12 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

We\'ve been looking for a *hand* mixer (I\'ve finally convinced SWMBO
that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
the only one who uses the damn thing!).

If you have the Kitchen Aid mixer, take it apart and regrease it, We did that 10 years ago and passed it on to our daughter.

The *stand* mixer works fine. It\'s the *hand* mixer that\'s on
its last leg.

I need one that has adequate \"oompf\" to deal with some of the
thicker batters that I make. *And*, high enough speed to
be able to whip the cream for the ice cream, cheesecake, etc.

The existing unit fails on both counts.

Amusing to see these \"no name\" brands advertising *600*W motors...
who think The Masses will appreciate that it is \"all copper\".

\"Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That\'s really important!
The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors...\"

(sigh) It\'s getting hard to sort out who the sleazeballs are
and who actually sells \"good value\". I\'ve had several bad
experiences with Amazon and eBay, lately. In each case,
a trip to the post office/UPS to make the return. Plus, a
week lost waiting for something that you\'re just going to return!

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 12:28:09 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 10:12 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
We\'ve been looking for a *hand* mixer (I\'ve finally convinced SWMBO
that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
the only one who uses the damn thing!).

If you have the Kitchen Aid mixer, take it apart and regrease it, We did that 10 years ago and passed it on to our daughter.
The *stand* mixer works fine. It\'s the *hand* mixer that\'s on
its last leg.

I need one that has adequate \"oompf\" to deal with some of the
thicker batters that I make. *And*, high enough speed to
be able to whip the cream for the ice cream, cheesecake, etc.

The existing unit fails on both counts.
Amusing to see these \"no name\" brands advertising *600*W motors...
who think The Masses will appreciate that it is \"all copper\".

\"Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That\'s really important!
The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors...\"


(sigh) It\'s getting hard to sort out who the sleazeballs are
and who actually sells \"good value\". I\'ve had several bad
experiences with Amazon and eBay, lately. In each case,
a trip to the post office/UPS to make the return. Plus, a
week lost waiting for something that you\'re just going to return!

Consumer Reports has some hand mixer ratings.
Breville Handy Mix Scraper BHM800SILUSC Score 83. $130
KitchenAid Architect KHM7210 7-Speed Mixer Score 75. $50
Cuisinart HM-8GRP1 Mixer Score 75. $80
The top one had a 5 outta 5 score for mixing chocolate chip cookie dough..
The other two scored 4 outta 5.

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 11:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Consumer Reports has some hand mixer ratings.
Breville Handy Mix Scraper BHM800SILUSC Score 83. $130
KitchenAid Architect KHM7210 7-Speed Mixer Score 75. $50
Cuisinart HM-8GRP1 Mixer Score 75. $80
The top one had a 5 outta 5 score for mixing chocolate chip cookie dough.
The other two scored 4 outta 5.

But I\'m not making chocolate chip cookies! :>

I find all sorts of \"reviews\" and \"ratings\". But,
that doesn\'t really tell me how they will perform
on the sorts of things that *I* make.

I\'ve been looking at rated power (W) to give a
rough idea as to how *thick* the batter they\'d be
able to handle.

But, you also need to see (hear?) how they
perform at low and high speeds as I\'m sure
the speed is just governed by winding
selection and not a genuine mechanical
transmission.

I also look at the style of \"beaters\" they use
(not interested in dough hooks; the big hobart
will address those needs). I\'m not fond of the
\"wire\" varieties. And, nothing plastic/rubber
coated.

Likewise, as few plastic parts as possible.
(I looked at the Braun but the mounting ends of
the beaters seem to be made of molded plastic :< )
The beater-ejector being something that I\'d like
to see first-hand to get a \"feel\" for...

And, whether they have fancy digital controls
that are likely to shit the bed in the future
and prove impossible to repair.

I was curious that looking for \"commercial\"
mixers turns up all *stick* immersion mixers (!).
So, have to think why/if that might be a better
option.

Meanwhile, I just rethink what I\'m going to make
to not require that sort of mixing action (e.g.,
I \"still froze\" the ice cream I made yesterday
instead of whipping it)

[Somehow it feels immoral to buy several different
models with the intent of returning at least most of
them!]

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 1:39:25 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 11:14 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Consumer Reports has some hand mixer ratings.
Breville Handy Mix Scraper BHM800SILUSC Score 83. $130
KitchenAid Architect KHM7210 7-Speed Mixer Score 75. $50
Cuisinart HM-8GRP1 Mixer Score 75. $80
The top one had a 5 outta 5 score for mixing chocolate chip cookie dough.
The other two scored 4 outta 5.
But I\'m not making chocolate chip cookies! :

I find all sorts of \"reviews\" and \"ratings\". But,
that doesn\'t really tell me how they will perform
on the sorts of things that *I* make.

I\'ve been looking at rated power (W) to give a
rough idea as to how *thick* the batter they\'d be
able to handle.

But, you also need to see (hear?) how they
perform at low and high speeds as I\'m sure
the speed is just governed by winding
selection and not a genuine mechanical
transmission.

I also look at the style of \"beaters\" they use
(not interested in dough hooks; the big hobart
will address those needs). I\'m not fond of the
\"wire\" varieties. And, nothing plastic/rubber
coated.

Likewise, as few plastic parts as possible.
(I looked at the Braun but the mounting ends of
the beaters seem to be made of molded plastic :< )
The beater-ejector being something that I\'d like
to see first-hand to get a \"feel\" for...

And, whether they have fancy digital controls
that are likely to shit the bed in the future
and prove impossible to repair.

I was curious that looking for \"commercial\"
mixers turns up all *stick* immersion mixers (!).
So, have to think why/if that might be a better
option.

Meanwhile, I just rethink what I\'m going to make
to not require that sort of mixing action (e.g.,
I \"still froze\" the ice cream I made yesterday
instead of whipping it)

[Somehow it feels immoral to buy several different
models with the intent of returning at least most of
them!]

Well, corded variable speed electric drills are cheap. I\'m too lazy to make my own stuff.
Thank goodness for microwave ovens.

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 12:07 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

[Somehow it feels immoral to buy several different
models with the intent of returning at least most of
them!]

Well, corded variable speed electric drills are cheap.

I gave that some serious consideration! But, figured SWMBO would
throw a fit if she saw me *baking* with POWER TOOLS! :> She
doesn\'t seem to appreciate the duality... <frown>

> I\'m too lazy to make my own stuff.

SWMBO is, as well! <frown> But, is very appreciative of
the stuff I *do* make (I don\'t eat any of this -- except
the ice cream... yum!). So, it\'s a relatively small price
to pay -- though continually *increasing*! (WTF?)

> Thank goodness for microwave ovens.

I actually only use the microwave to reheat tea (the brits
are probably shitting themselves over that! :> ). Baked
goods are the most demanding (cuz I make such large batches).
Tonight will be a batch of (400) Benne Wafers. But, I can
mix them with just a wooden spoon.

<https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/ANTWW7TGJE6RNBEG55BMZFKKVA.jpg&w=860>

*I* could likely live with just a hotplate. Or, a small
toaster oven (I tend to eat *one* thing at a time; not a
plateful of different food groups!)

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 13 March 2023 at 17:07:02 UTC, Don Y wrote:

On 3/13/2023 9:42 AM, Lamont Cranston wrote:
The price is right, the amperage is not right for most home wiring, the safety and quality have to be questioned.
But at $2.87 with free shipping for a 3000 watt heater...
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.design/c/8_HOPS6CbrM
If I had any use for it I\'d waste $3.
\"If it SOUNDS too good to be true...\"

We\'ve been looking for a *hand* mixer (I\'ve finally convinced SWMBO
that her *50* yo device is long past its prime -- esp as *I* am
the only one who uses the damn thing!).

Amusing to see these \"no name\" brands advertising *600*W motors...
who think The Masses will appreciate that it is \"all copper\".

\"Yes, Mr Lee/Kim/Youn/whatever. That\'s really important!
The other vendors likely use bailing wire to wind their motors...\"

Aluminium is cheaper & does show up in chinese motors, & even mains leads.

 

[Tabby]

On Sunday, 12 March 2023 at 20:33:57 UTC, Lamont Cranston wrote:

Does anyone here have a recirculating pump to provide instant hot water to a faucet. I was looking putting at a heater under my kitchen sink, but decided it took more room than I was willing to give up. Then I started looking at the recirculating pumps, that use the cold water pipe as a return for the hot water that gets pumped to the faucet. If you don\'t know, a little description may be helpful. The common installation has a thermal valve at the last faucet of the plumbing run. This thermal valve is between the incoming hot water pipe and the incoming cold water pipe. The pump usually mounted at the water heater, pumps hot water through the hot pipe and back through the cold pipe until the thermal valve senses hot water at the last faucet at which time the valve closes so no more water circulates through the pipes. However the pump continues to run. Many of the pumps have a timer that controls at minimum a 15 minute on, 15 minute off cycle. You can also set it so the pump is off when sleeping or when you\'re not home if you have regular schedule.
What are your thoughts about automating this so that when the water reaches a certain temperature at the last sink it sends a signal back to the pump to shut it off. Wireless would be preferable. Because the thermal valve closes at about 90*F I suspect a electric water valve would be need to isolate the hot and cold water when the water has reached the proper temperature.. Ditching the thermal valve. I\'m bothered by the pump running constantly when not needed. Even though it is only 22 watts. This is small compared to the cost of heating the water that cools in the pipe between the thermal valve cycles. This is somewhat offset by the
water/sewer cost and the cost to heat the extra water that is run down the drain. It wastes 1.4 gallons waiting for hot water at the shower, and about 1/2 gallon every time you try to get hot water at the kitchen sink. My water/sewer cost is 2.4 cent a gallon and another 3.2 cents to heat a gallon of water. Your thoughts?
Mikek

returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.

 

[Lamont Cranston]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
> returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.

But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek

you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

 

[Ricky]

On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:57:57 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

tirsdag den 14. marts 2023 kl. 00.35.00 UTC+1 skrev Lamont Cranston:
On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM UTC-5, Tabby wrote:
returning the water via the cold circuit is multiple kinds of wrong. Power the circulating pump from a kitchen PIR.
But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not willing to re-plumb their home to make use
of a recirculating pump. Also, recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain. In my area the cost for sewer
is almost 2 times the cost of the water.
btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong?
Mikek
you generally don\'t want any risk of getting contamination, including your hot water, into the potable cold water system

So hot water is not potable??? I never knew that. I guess everytime I run the hot water, I should then run the cold water a while to clean the tap?

This whole idea of running hot water through the system to keep the water in the pipe hot is silly. They make instant hot water heaters for sinks, that do this job and only need an outlet.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Don Y]

On 3/13/2023 4:34 PM, Lamont Cranston wrote:

But, I\'m sure you can understand that in most instances, people are not
willing to re-plumb their home to make use of a recirculating pump.

Of course not! And, in many types of construction, it\'s simply not
practical. You gonna jackhammer your slab just to run another length
of pipe?

Also,
recirculating the water is preferable to dumping in the drain.

Here (SoAZ), the water has perceived value, even if not significant
monetary value (water is reasonably cheap... for the time being).
SWMBO empties any residual water in the kettle into her \"watering
pail\" each morning and uses that for plants, the bird bath, etc.

[I just add water and make another pot! :> ]

In my area
the cost for sewer is almost 2 times the cost of the water.

Ditto. Maybe even a greater multiplier, here (they hide the
costs in all sorts of different fees so it\'s hard to sort out
what the actual costs of each, are).

There\'s a half-assed attempt to try to compensate for
irrigation uses (which don\'t burden the sewer system)
by using the winter months as a benchmark for sewer use
(assumes EVERY CCF of water consumed goes back through the
sewer -- which is already an invalid assumption as you
still need to irrigate in the winter months, swimming pools still
suffer evaporative losses, etc.)

One can install a separate meter for irrigation but that
is at your expense AND incurs a monthly fee to support that
monitoring (despite the fact that YOU monitor and report the
readings, THEY want to charge you for YOUR effort! :-/ )

> btw, could you list those multiple kinds of wrong? Mikek