OT: Why is Germany so (apparently) stupid to give up nuclear

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 12:37:23 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
news:6j8soe9pajlkktrh7rb702k8tvtp8d3ekv@4ax.com:

Storing electricity in batteries to be used several hours later to
heat water doesn't make any sense.

It makes a lot of sense, dumbass. Daytime electric costs more.
Firing this need from batteries means the meter does not spin during
the day from it. The only thing gained is a bit lower electric bill.

Finally you admit it. "A bit lower electric bill". Which is why it
makes no sense. If you want a lower electric bill and are using enough
hot water that the cost matters, then use nat gas, if available.
Or use a solar collector to use almost no energy to heat water.
I'd rather buy a solar collector than a room full of batteries.
Roofs are frequently empty and available, space inside restrooms for
a battery bank, not so much.

That is all the goal was.

USING electricity FROM batteries during the day on the HWOD units,
and THEN charging the batteries at night when the electric is cheaper.
Pretty fucking simple math there.

Damn. If you cannot even follow a simple idea, you have no chance
with anything complex.

It is simple, I'll give you that.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 10:52:34 AM UTC+10, Whoey Louie wrote:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 12:32:32 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:156d6937-3d22-4aba-be52-6a3e74187351@googlegroups.com:
On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 8:57:58 AM UTC-4,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:1fb5fabb-e2e2-4fa4-9ddf-233cd61e372c@googlegroups.com:

<snip>

No shit, you retarded fuck. My solution was for those currently
using electric HWOD systems. Get a clue and grow the fuck up.

but you just said your example facility has nat gas available.
Use nat gas, that's what I do. But then I'm not a dummy.

Trader4 is a dummy. His claim that he isn't is merely wishful thinking - he does have a lot of delusions that make him feel better about himself, and this is one more of them - but what he posts makes it blindingly obvious that he isn't very bright.

In this particular instance, the fact that natural gas is available on the site doesn't mean that it could be used for hot water on demand in the places where it isn't being used for that at the moment - there are all sorts of restrictions on where you can burn gas, and vent the exhaust gases.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, September 28, 2019 at 11:19:48 AM UTC+10, Robert Baer wrote:

Whoey Louie wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 12:32:32 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:156d6937-3d22-4aba-be52-6a3e74187351@googlegroups.com:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 8:57:58 AM UTC-4,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:1fb5fabb-e2e2-4fa4-9ddf-233cd61e372c@googlegroups.com:

If you want lower cost
hot water, just use natural gas, which I bet most rest rooms
are already doing.

You are thick skulled, boy. No room in there for actual brain
matter.

You were already told. Most use HWOD.

And they can also use nat gas, stupid. In fact, for on demand, a
lot more use nat gas than use electric, for obvious reasons.

Nope. Most use installations of ELECTRIC HWOD units PROXIMAL to
the point of use.

Gas fired HWOD units are further removed from the use point and are
only in those locations that had gas included in their build. Not
all commercial buildings do, even in areas where it is available.
And many of those still use tank systems.

For obvious reasons? Our campus was three buildings when I got
there. They built 6 more since then and despite it being a fully gas
serviced and entrenched region, they made all of them all electric.

With nat gas available to use electric to heat water is stupid, if you
have enough usage that the bills are an issue. Stupid is as stupid does.
And if the bills are not an issue, because there just isn't that much
usage, then installing your battery to save a little bit on lower night
electric rates makes no sense either. If it's significant energy usage,
use nat gas.





All it is is you making shit up again. You stink, boy.



It's
a lot easier to get the required amount of energy from gas than it
is from electric and gas is cheaper.


No shit, you retarded fuck. My solution was for those currently
using electric HWOD systems. Get a clue and grow the fuck up.

but you just said your example facility has nat gas available.
Use nat gas, that's what I do. But then I'm not a dummy.





Go take a look at Home
Depot.

Home depot is not an indutrial facility supplier, dumbfuck.

They carry a variety of on-demand water heaters, both electric
and gas in capacities suitable for small to large restrooms.
It was restrooms you were talking about..... In any even, I suggested
you take a look, because you claimed that nat gas ones don't exist.






I would use a tank as I feel that hot water should be VERY hot,
and
the USER at the tap dials in the temp wanted.


Make up your mind, first you talk about on-demand systems, now you
say you want a tank.

I would use a tank at my home. My suggestion, since you are so
fucking retarded that you cannot even keep up, was about industrial
facilities. Learn to read.

Then why are you switching to talking about home? Why not put a
battery bank in your house too and enjoy those lower night rates
for electric?





And let's add more complexity and scald
people too.

You really are a retarded little piece of shit.

You are not adult enough to ever gain a spot in any facility I
would run. An idiot too stupid to heed being informed that the HOT
water IS HOT has no business working for me.

A very hot water tank is less efficient than one at a
more reasonable temperature,

No, it is not.

Of course it is, the heat loss is proportional to the temperature
difference between the water and the environment. Why do you think
the govt has been telling people to lower their temp, when possible,
to save energy?



The thermal mass is there. Once heated, takes no
more to upkeep than a smaller tank or a lower heat tank.

Wrong, the heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference.
This is just silly. It's like saying it takes as much energy to
maintain a pot of water at 200F as it does at 100F.




The tanks
are quite efficient at that. The thermal mass also means that usage
'shocks' the remainder in the tank less with the colder refill
stream.

I know you have trouble with math, so I'll stop there, since that
singular point alone defeats your bullshit claim 100%.


it's one simple thing people can do
to lower their bills,

You are truly clueless. A family, especially one with children
need VERY hot water to insure sanitization of clothing, dishes,
surfaces, etc.

Oh, BS.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/services/do-it-yourself-energy-savings-projects/savings-project-lower-water-heating

Although some manufacturers set water heater thermostats at 140ºF, most households usually only require them to be set at 120ºF, which also slows mineral buildup and corrosion in your water heater and pipes. Water heated at 140ºF also poses a safety hazard—scalding."


I would set it a bit higher, ~130F to reduce chances of legionaires
Disease, but that isn't what I'd call very hot. But feel free to
waste energy and risk scalding.




All they need to is be mindful of it. easy peasy.
Also, less is used at the tap when mixed down that some lame full
tilt lukewarm feed, no cold side required.

Without cold side and with very hot water, you'd get scalded, stupid.





Again, it is a simple caloric math thing. If they are going to
simply supply their houshold with lukewarm water, the the entire
expenditure is a waste.

If all you want, need and use is lukewarm water, then lukewarm water
from the water heater will use the least energy.




You cannot win this. It IS "cheaper, sure.

And just prior you said if you have it set to lukewarm water, then
the entire expenditure is a waste.....




But it is also no longer "hot water". The degrees thing is basic
math too... so get to that remedial course, dipshit.

which I thought was your objective.

HWOD systems provide actual hot water. Firing them from DC is max
efficient,

DC is no more or less efficient than using AC, stupid.




and charging that source at night is cheaper than paying
it out on day rates. Again... math... child.

A bit cheaper, yes. But not enough to make it worthwhile when you
have to pay for the cost of batteries, which don't last forever,
all the install cost. If you want cheaper how water, use nat gas.





Now you
want batteries to heat a tank of water to high temperature.

You seem to have gotten lost. The tank thing is how I would set up
my house, because *I* would not use HWOD if you paid me to. The HWOD
idea is STILL POU installations that would not change. Only how they
get powered and by what means.

Homes use tanks because they take showers, make baths... etc.
Things not done in commercial factory settings.

You can do all that with an on-demand heaters in a house too,
you just have to size them or it correctly. Which is another reason
nat gas is the more popular choice.

Mmmmm.... I understand that in some countries in Europe, hot water
for a shower is not done with a (wasteful) tank source.
It is done with a HWOD system that seems far more efficient than
those doozies being foisted off to US dummies.
The system puts the heater as a part of the pipe almost immediately
before the shower head.

We had one in a house we bought in the UK, and got rid of it as fast as we could.

It didn't work very well, and isn't all that efficient.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote in
newsyyjF.5399$oJ2.3102@fx46.iad:

The system puts the heater as a part of the pipe almost
immediately
before the shower head.

Yes, properly installed and calibrated, they work very well.

Improperly installed, they cost more as the person stands there
waiting for the hot water to arrive. That is wasteful.

Business electrical rates are higher than residential service.
Usually especially during daytime hours and daytime pek hours.

These HWOD devices operate just fine, if not better on DC. As we
all know, DC can be stored for later use.

So my idea has some viability.

 

<TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in news:2f24cbf3-d738-4d4f-a98f-
6b7c9b4f16a0@googlegroups.com:

but you just said your example facility has nat gas available.
Use nat gas, that's what I do. But then I'm not a dummy.

No I did not. I said it was in the region. The entire campus'
buildings do not have it. That is like 1/4mile x 3/8mile square area.
They are not going to get gas lines piped in cheaper than my solution.
And even if they do exist at city level, they would still have to have
the buildings fitted. Not cheap.

Nice try though, twerp.

 

Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in news:ec1b1512-ced1-46ae-
b847-723f49a5f68f@googlegroups.com:

and available, space inside restrooms for
a battery bank, not so much.

You're a goddamned retard.

Nobody said anything about batteries in restrooms.

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in news:c38199fc-79b0-
457e-ad0d-9d9b20ddbbee@googlegroups.com:

> That is the most expensive and least efficient.

Least efficient?

The heater is INSIDE the water.

With gas, the external coupling of the heat generated by the gas
flame heats it. A lot runs up the sides and out the flue.

Both are quite efficient. But other than cost/price, I would say
that electric wins by better coupling alone.

Not as bad as an ICE on efficiency, but a gas water heater has
quite a bit of heat going up and out that flue.

I am aware of a 'jailhouse boiler' used to make water for coffee.
Two tablespoons separated by rubber bands attached to the 120 VAC,
and inserted into a glass full of water will heat that sucker up
pretty dang fast.

Nobody said anything about using a heat pump.

A solar pre-heat setup was discussed.

 

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 18:19:33 -0800, Robert Baer
<robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:

Whoey Louie wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 12:32:32 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

<...>

Homes use tanks because they take showers, make baths... etc.
Things not done in commercial factory settings.

You can do all that with an on-demand heaters in a house too,
you just have to size them or it correctly. Which is another reason
nat gas is the more popular choice.

Mmmmm.... I understand that in some countries in Europe, hot water
for a shower is not done with a (wasteful) tank source.
It is done with a HWOD system that seems far more efficient than
those doozies being foisted off to US dummies.
The system puts the heater as a part of the pipe almost immediately
before the shower head.

Europe has a completely different set of economics ruling it.
Electricity is cheap in much of the US. HWOD hardware is not cheap
and it's not reliable. Tanks work and are cheap. I'd *never* install
a HWOD system unless the economics changes drastically (I don't have
access to gas).

 

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 18:07:59 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 12:57:52 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:1fb5fabb-e2e2-4fa4-9ddf-233cd61e372c@googlegroups.com:

If you want lower cost
hot water, just use natural gas, which I bet most rest rooms are
already doing.

You are thick skulled, boy. No room in there for actual brain
matter.

You were already told. Most use HWOD.

I would use a tank as I feel that hot water should be VERY hot, and
the USER at the tap dials in the temp wanted.

Also, it is well known that tank accumulate bio-contaminants. That
is one reason why a lot of companies went to HWOD.

The bio-contaminents are the reason to keep the hot water pipe
temperatures above 55-65 C.

Colder water in pipes isn't a problem, where it's regularly flushed
out. Warm water in storage tanks is a breeding ground for all sorts
of nasty stuff.

 

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 08:47:21 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 11:02:49 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 04:08:53 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

I stated ten years ago (or more) that big companies in the US using
now considered 'modern' hot water systems in their workplace by
placing HWOD units instead of water heater tanks in their restrooms
and kitchens could save millions and relieve the grid by further
adding battery storage systems and powering said HWOD units with the
battery pack, and charging said packs at night when demand is low
(and rates).

Storing electricity in batteries to be used several hours later to
heat water doesn't make any sense. Much cheaper is to use an insulated
water tank, heat the water during cheap electricity and use the warm
water when needed.

Even better, use vacuum solar collectors to heat up the water during a
sunny day, even if the outdoor temperature is below zero degrees. In
Middle East they have even a simpler system, they just put white
plastic tanks on the roofs and the water temperature is suitable for
taking a shower in the evening.

Battery storage makes sense for electric use in electronics and
lighting, not for heating water due to the low total efficiency.

What makes more sense depends on the details. Time shifting electrical loads is a useful thing in general. If this is done via batteries on a per home basis, it will get used for whatever is needed. HWOD is useful because it reduces the thermal losses of storing heat in a water tank. If it uses electricity from the battery, the total losses need to be compared to be able to say which is better.

Not just total losses but total EOL, time-valued, cost.

>How well does the middle east approach work for morning showers?

Don't?

 

[Robert Baer]

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in news:ec1b1512-ced1-46ae-
b847-723f49a5f68f@googlegroups.com:

and available, space inside restrooms for
a battery bank, not so much.

You're a goddamned retard.

Nobody said anything about batteries in restrooms.

...you mean i can not test my Helium arc welder there?

 

[Robert Baer]

krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 18:07:59 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 12:57:52 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:1fb5fabb-e2e2-4fa4-9ddf-233cd61e372c@googlegroups.com:

If you want lower cost
hot water, just use natural gas, which I bet most rest rooms are
already doing.

You are thick skulled, boy. No room in there for actual brain
matter.

You were already told. Most use HWOD.

I would use a tank as I feel that hot water should be VERY hot, and
the USER at the tap dials in the temp wanted.

Also, it is well known that tank accumulate bio-contaminants. That
is one reason why a lot of companies went to HWOD.

The bio-contaminents are the reason to keep the hot water pipe
temperatures above 55-65 C.

Colder water in pipes isn't a problem, where it's regularly flushed
out. Warm water in storage tanks is a breeding ground for all sorts
of nasty stuff.

(pant pant ...) could we have a X-ray-ted microscope movie of them
critters?

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 2:28:31 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in news:338c7d3c-175d-4a50-
8155-7dbf2c877749@googlegroups.com:

Solar can heat water to the temp needed for your restrooms much of
the time, not just preheat it.

Nope. Not even close.

Really? Says who and why? And why not? You just need water that's at
comfortable hand washing temperature, solar collectors can certainly
deliver that most of the time, greatly reducing the electric used for
water heating. Or you could put in solar panels, use that to heat
the water and the electric bill doesn't go to the night rate electric,
it can go to zero.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 9:19:48 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:

Whoey Louie wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 12:32:32 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:156d6937-3d22-4aba-be52-6a3e74187351@googlegroups.com:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 8:57:58 AM UTC-4,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:1fb5fabb-e2e2-4fa4-9ddf-233cd61e372c@googlegroups.com:

If you want lower cost
hot water, just use natural gas, which I bet most rest rooms
are already doing.

You are thick skulled, boy. No room in there for actual brain
matter.

You were already told. Most use HWOD.

And they can also use nat gas, stupid. In fact, for on demand, a
lot more use nat gas than use electric, for obvious reasons.

Nope. Most use installations of ELECTRIC HWOD units PROXIMAL to
the point of use.

Gas fired HWOD units are further removed from the use point and are
only in those locations that had gas included in their build. Not
all commercial buildings do, even in areas where it is available.
And many of those still use tank systems.

For obvious reasons? Our campus was three buildings when I got
there. They built 6 more since then and despite it being a fully gas
serviced and entrenched region, they made all of them all electric.

With nat gas available to use electric to heat water is stupid, if you
have enough usage that the bills are an issue. Stupid is as stupid does.
And if the bills are not an issue, because there just isn't that much
usage, then installing your battery to save a little bit on lower night
electric rates makes no sense either. If it's significant energy usage,
use nat gas.





All it is is you making shit up again. You stink, boy.



It's
a lot easier to get the required amount of energy from gas than it
is from electric and gas is cheaper.


No shit, you retarded fuck. My solution was for those currently
using electric HWOD systems. Get a clue and grow the fuck up.

but you just said your example facility has nat gas available.
Use nat gas, that's what I do. But then I'm not a dummy.





Go take a look at Home
Depot.

Home depot is not an indutrial facility supplier, dumbfuck.

They carry a variety of on-demand water heaters, both electric
and gas in capacities suitable for small to large restrooms.
It was restrooms you were talking about..... In any even, I suggested
you take a look, because you claimed that nat gas ones don't exist.






I would use a tank as I feel that hot water should be VERY hot,
and
the USER at the tap dials in the temp wanted.


Make up your mind, first you talk about on-demand systems, now you
say you want a tank.

I would use a tank at my home. My suggestion, since you are so
fucking retarded that you cannot even keep up, was about industrial
facilities. Learn to read.

Then why are you switching to talking about home? Why not put a
battery bank in your house too and enjoy those lower night rates
for electric?





And let's add more complexity and scald
people too.

You really are a retarded little piece of shit.

You are not adult enough to ever gain a spot in any facility I
would run. An idiot too stupid to heed being informed that the HOT
water IS HOT has no business working for me.

A very hot water tank is less efficient than one at a
more reasonable temperature,

No, it is not.

Of course it is, the heat loss is proportional to the temperature
difference between the water and the environment. Why do you think
the govt has been telling people to lower their temp, when possible,
to save energy?



The thermal mass is there. Once heated, takes no
more to upkeep than a smaller tank or a lower heat tank.

Wrong, the heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference.
This is just silly. It's like saying it takes as much energy to
maintain a pot of water at 200F as it does at 100F.




The tanks
are quite efficient at that. The thermal mass also means that usage
'shocks' the remainder in the tank less with the colder refill
stream.

I know you have trouble with math, so I'll stop there, since that
singular point alone defeats your bullshit claim 100%.


it's one simple thing people can do
to lower their bills,

You are truly clueless. A family, especially one with children
need VERY hot water to insure sanitization of clothing, dishes,
surfaces, etc.

Oh, BS.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/services/do-it-yourself-energy-savings-projects/savings-project-lower-water-heating

Although some manufacturers set water heater thermostats at 140ºF, most households usually only require them to be set at 120ºF, which also slows mineral buildup and corrosion in your water heater and pipes. Water heated at 140ºF also poses a safety hazard—scalding."


I would set it a bit higher, ~130F to reduce chances of legionaires
Disease, but that isn't what I'd call very hot. But feel free to
waste energy and risk scalding.




All they need to is be mindful of it. easy peasy.
Also, less is used at the tap when mixed down that some lame full
tilt lukewarm feed, no cold side required.

Without cold side and with very hot water, you'd get scalded, stupid.





Again, it is a simple caloric math thing. If they are going to
simply supply their houshold with lukewarm water, the the entire
expenditure is a waste.

If all you want, need and use is lukewarm water, then lukewarm water
from the water heater will use the least energy.




You cannot win this. It IS "cheaper, sure.

And just prior you said if you have it set to lukewarm water, then
the entire expenditure is a waste.....




But it is also no longer "hot water". The degrees thing is basic
math too... so get to that remedial course, dipshit.

which I thought was your objective.

HWOD systems provide actual hot water. Firing them from DC is max
efficient,

DC is no more or less efficient than using AC, stupid.




and charging that source at night is cheaper than paying
it out on day rates. Again... math... child.

A bit cheaper, yes. But not enough to make it worthwhile when you
have to pay for the cost of batteries, which don't last forever,
all the install cost. If you want cheaper how water, use nat gas.





Now you
want batteries to heat a tank of water to high temperature.

You seem to have gotten lost. The tank thing is how I would set up
my house, because *I* would not use HWOD if you paid me to. The HWOD
idea is STILL POU installations that would not change. Only how they
get powered and by what means.

Homes use tanks because they take showers, make baths... etc.
Things not done in commercial factory settings.

You can do all that with an on-demand heaters in a house too,
you just have to size them or it correctly. Which is another reason
nat gas is the more popular choice.

Mmmmm.... I understand that in some countries in Europe, hot water
for a shower is not done with a (wasteful) tank source.
It is done with a HWOD system that seems far more efficient than
those doozies being foisted off to US dummies.

Yeah, the nat gas bill here is under $20 a month in summer, when it's
used for water heating and some gas grilling outside. That's the whole
bill, using a simple, traditional gas water heater that cost $450.
It has a pilot light, uses a chimney, ie it's not one of the fancy,
new high efficiency direct vent ones. So, how much inefficiency is
there and what is it costing me? Even if it's a third, which is unlikely,
that would be a whopping $80 a year. I suppose I should go get one
of those HWOD ones for about $1200 for the unit. Then I can pay a
plumber $2000 to run a new, larger gas line to support it. And when
that heater fails in say 15 years, I can spend another $1200 replacing it,
instead of $450. Fortunately I can do math.

The system puts the heater as a part of the pipe almost immediately
before the shower head.

Whoopty Do.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 3:30:50 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 11:28:18 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 2:13:29 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 11:03:37 -0700 (PDT), Rick C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 1:39:32 PM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:37:17 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
news:6j8soe9pajlkktrh7rb702k8tvtp8d3ekv@4ax.com:

Storing electricity in batteries to be used several hours later to
heat water doesn't make any sense.

It makes a lot of sense, dumbass. Daytime electric costs more..
Firing this need from batteries means the meter does not spin during
the day from it. The only thing gained is a bit lower electric bill.
That is all the goal was.

USING electricity FROM batteries during the day on the HWOD units,
and THEN charging the batteries at night when the electric is cheaper.
Pretty fucking simple math there.

Damn. If you cannot even follow a simple idea, you have no chance
with anything complex.

Take a 1000 liter water tank, heat it to 95 C and then take out heat,
until the average temperature drops to 55 C, the temperature drop is
40 C or the energy stored and extracted is 40 C x 4 kJ/kg/C x 1000 kg
or 160000 kJ or 44 kWh. That is about the typical EV battery capacity.
How much does such batteries cost ? An insulated water tank is
definitively less than that.

Why are you heating water to 95°C???

To get as big delta-T as possible. The low limit is limited by the
reduced usability of only mild warm water.

Of course, I could heat to 120 or even 200 C, but that would require a
pressurized tank to avoid boiling the water.There are all kinds of
inspections for pressure vessels.

1000 liters is a big tank. I thought we were talking about domestic hot water use. At this point I have no idea what you are talking about.

1000 liters is about right size to keep a house warm during a winter
day after being charged with cheaper night electricity.

Why would anyone want to heat with straight electricity? That is the most expensive and least efficient. Heat pump are much more practical in many areas. A 1000 liter tank would use a significant floor space in a home which is not by any means cheap.

There is a reason why this is not popular. It's a bad idea. Did you come up with this on your own?

--

Rick C.

+-+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

This thread has morphed. DL's original proposal was to use banks of storage
batteries to heat water for restrooms in commercial facilities, claiming
that they use electric on-demand water heaters and the batteries would be
charged at night to take advantage of lower rate electricity.

If he actually worked some numbers, I think he's see there is no big
savings. Storage battery systems aren't cheap, you have the installation
costs, IDK where you put a battery bank in a restroom, etc. If electric
bills for water heating in a restroom are significant, I'd be switching
to nat gas if available and I'd bet many restrooms already use it.
Or you could use a solar collector and then the heat is free and I'd
bet that you could buy a mighty fine solar collector for less than the
cost of the battery bank and related gear.

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 2:27:35 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
news:gkhsoet3hq857svlsb89d94mgrmqh68h87@4ax.com:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:37:17 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
news:6j8soe9pajlkktrh7rb702k8tvtp8d3ekv@4ax.com:

Storing electricity in batteries to be used several hours later
to heat water doesn't make any sense.

It makes a lot of sense, dumbass. Daytime electric costs more.
Firing this need from batteries means the meter does not spin
during the day from it. The only thing gained is a bit lower
electric bill. That is all the goal was.

USING electricity FROM batteries during the day on the HWOD
units,
and THEN charging the batteries at night when the electric is
cheaper. Pretty fucking simple math there.

Damn. If you cannot even follow a simple idea, you have no
chance
with anything complex.

Take a 1000 liter water tank, heat it to 95 C and then take out
heat, until the average temperature drops to 55 C, the
temperature drop is 40 C or the energy stored and extracted is 40
C x 4 kJ/kg/C x 1000 kg or 160000 kJ or 44 kWh. That is about the
typical EV battery capacity. How much does such batteries cost ?
An insulated water tank is definitively less than that.


Except this is about those companies with HWOD already installed.
GODDAMN BOY open your fucking eyes and READ.

I already KNOW and have stated that a tank is better. I use a
tank. They come from the factory high efficiency and well insulated.
An additional blanket would make that even more efficient.

And you are jacking off at the mouth about your imagined battery
needs and capacities. You have no clue. This is not some lame lead
acid car battery.

The energy needed to heat hot water from batteries and the battery
capacity required don't depend on whether it's lead acid or not,
they are just the energy required, not how you get it.

Then you spout off about a fucking tank.. Get back on topic,
dipshit.

The claim is that a comapny using HWOD could save money by powering
them with DC and charging the battery up on night rates. Real
fucking simple.

Still waiting for any numbers that show any savings after you pay
for all the batteries and installation, maintenance cost. And
that's assuming you have space at a restroom facility to house a
battery bank..... If you have room for that, you have room
for a tank....

 

[Whoey Louie]

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 9:35:15 PM UTC-4, Rick C wrote:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 9:19:48 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
Whoey Louie wrote:
On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 12:32:32 PM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:156d6937-3d22-4aba-be52-6a3e74187351@googlegroups.com:

On Friday, September 27, 2019 at 8:57:58 AM UTC-4,
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
TraitorTard4@optonline.net> wrote in
news:1fb5fabb-e2e2-4fa4-9ddf-233cd61e372c@googlegroups.com:

If you want lower cost
hot water, just use natural gas, which I bet most rest rooms
are already doing.

You are thick skulled, boy. No room in there for actual brain
matter.

You were already told. Most use HWOD.

And they can also use nat gas, stupid. In fact, for on demand, a
lot more use nat gas than use electric, for obvious reasons.

Nope. Most use installations of ELECTRIC HWOD units PROXIMAL to
the point of use.

Gas fired HWOD units are further removed from the use point and are
only in those locations that had gas included in their build. Not
all commercial buildings do, even in areas where it is available.
And many of those still use tank systems.

For obvious reasons? Our campus was three buildings when I got
there. They built 6 more since then and despite it being a fully gas
serviced and entrenched region, they made all of them all electric.

With nat gas available to use electric to heat water is stupid, if you
have enough usage that the bills are an issue. Stupid is as stupid does.
And if the bills are not an issue, because there just isn't that much
usage, then installing your battery to save a little bit on lower night
electric rates makes no sense either. If it's significant energy usage,
use nat gas.





All it is is you making shit up again. You stink, boy.



It's
a lot easier to get the required amount of energy from gas than it
is from electric and gas is cheaper.


No shit, you retarded fuck. My solution was for those currently
using electric HWOD systems. Get a clue and grow the fuck up.

but you just said your example facility has nat gas available.
Use nat gas, that's what I do. But then I'm not a dummy.





Go take a look at Home
Depot.

Home depot is not an indutrial facility supplier, dumbfuck.

They carry a variety of on-demand water heaters, both electric
and gas in capacities suitable for small to large restrooms.
It was restrooms you were talking about..... In any even, I suggested
you take a look, because you claimed that nat gas ones don't exist.






I would use a tank as I feel that hot water should be VERY hot,
and
the USER at the tap dials in the temp wanted.


Make up your mind, first you talk about on-demand systems, now you
say you want a tank.

I would use a tank at my home. My suggestion, since you are so
fucking retarded that you cannot even keep up, was about industrial
facilities. Learn to read.

Then why are you switching to talking about home? Why not put a
battery bank in your house too and enjoy those lower night rates
for electric?





And let's add more complexity and scald
people too.

You really are a retarded little piece of shit.

You are not adult enough to ever gain a spot in any facility I
would run. An idiot too stupid to heed being informed that the HOT
water IS HOT has no business working for me.

A very hot water tank is less efficient than one at a
more reasonable temperature,

No, it is not.

Of course it is, the heat loss is proportional to the temperature
difference between the water and the environment. Why do you think
the govt has been telling people to lower their temp, when possible,
to save energy?



The thermal mass is there. Once heated, takes no
more to upkeep than a smaller tank or a lower heat tank.

Wrong, the heat loss is proportional to the temperature difference.
This is just silly. It's like saying it takes as much energy to
maintain a pot of water at 200F as it does at 100F.




The tanks
are quite efficient at that. The thermal mass also means that usage
'shocks' the remainder in the tank less with the colder refill
stream.

I know you have trouble with math, so I'll stop there, since that
singular point alone defeats your bullshit claim 100%.


it's one simple thing people can do
to lower their bills,

You are truly clueless. A family, especially one with children
need VERY hot water to insure sanitization of clothing, dishes,
surfaces, etc.

Oh, BS.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/services/do-it-yourself-energy-savings-projects/savings-project-lower-water-heating

Although some manufacturers set water heater thermostats at 140ºF, most households usually only require them to be set at 120ºF, which also slows mineral buildup and corrosion in your water heater and pipes. Water heated at 140ºF also poses a safety hazard—scalding."


I would set it a bit higher, ~130F to reduce chances of legionaires
Disease, but that isn't what I'd call very hot. But feel free to
waste energy and risk scalding.




All they need to is be mindful of it. easy peasy.
Also, less is used at the tap when mixed down that some lame full
tilt lukewarm feed, no cold side required.

Without cold side and with very hot water, you'd get scalded, stupid.





Again, it is a simple caloric math thing. If they are going to
simply supply their houshold with lukewarm water, the the entire
expenditure is a waste.

If all you want, need and use is lukewarm water, then lukewarm water
from the water heater will use the least energy.




You cannot win this. It IS "cheaper, sure.

And just prior you said if you have it set to lukewarm water, then
the entire expenditure is a waste.....




But it is also no longer "hot water". The degrees thing is basic
math too... so get to that remedial course, dipshit.

which I thought was your objective.

HWOD systems provide actual hot water. Firing them from DC is max
efficient,

DC is no more or less efficient than using AC, stupid.




and charging that source at night is cheaper than paying
it out on day rates. Again... math... child.

A bit cheaper, yes. But not enough to make it worthwhile when you
have to pay for the cost of batteries, which don't last forever,
all the install cost. If you want cheaper how water, use nat gas.





Now you
want batteries to heat a tank of water to high temperature.

You seem to have gotten lost. The tank thing is how I would set up
my house, because *I* would not use HWOD if you paid me to. The HWOD
idea is STILL POU installations that would not change. Only how they
get powered and by what means.

Homes use tanks because they take showers, make baths... etc.
Things not done in commercial factory settings.

You can do all that with an on-demand heaters in a house too,
you just have to size them or it correctly. Which is another reason
nat gas is the more popular choice.

Mmmmm.... I understand that in some countries in Europe, hot water
for a shower is not done with a (wasteful) tank source.
It is done with a HWOD system that seems far more efficient than
those doozies being foisted off to US dummies.
The system puts the heater as a part of the pipe almost immediately
before the shower head.

Whether HWOD is more efficient depends on other variables. For example a friend bought a water heater with a heat pump. Yup. So for every nickle you spend heating water with an HWOD system, he is paying around a penny or two. He paid more for the system but will save money in the long run.

--

If the system lasts long enough. There is a trend in everything heat pump
related that I see, from dehumidifiers (the worst), to fridges and AC
units. In the past they used to last 30 years. Now you're lucky if you
get half of that. With dehumdifiers, they frequently last just a few years..

 

Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in news:3a5bfe2e-0787-47b6-
8a24-14390074cb83@googlegroups.com:

solar collectors can certainly
deliver that most of the time, greatly reducing the electric used
for
water heating.

Learn to read, you retarded fuck.

*I* said that it can supplement. You said it would be the sole
source.

That is all it can do in some regions, in others, it can bring
one's water closer to the full, needed (near boiling) temp. In
others, but not often, it can actually boil the water. With optical
amplification, it can most certain do so and can be used for cooking
as well. Whoopie the fuck doo, boy.

We are not talking about all possibilities here. We are talking
about quick and dirty, guaranteed savings AND the entire nation's
grid segments can relax a bit if everyone got on board, thereby
allowing for the granting of incentives to do so.

You are talking about replumbing the entire building.

Nice try, punk.

 

Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in news:3a5bfe2e-0787-47b6-
8a24-14390074cb83@googlegroups.com:

You just need water that's at
comfortable hand washing temperature,

Your fucked in the head opinion. What makes you think that lukewarm
water is sanitary? Much less the system it is drawn from.

 

Whoey Louie <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in news:2cbd4b68-19d0-4bd4-
a8ed-e35f31294d30@googlegroups.com:

Still waiting for any numbers that show any savings after you pay
for all the batteries and installation, maintenance cost.

No, dipshit. What you are doing is still mumbling.

And
that's assuming you have space at a restroom facility

Restroom facility? You are obviously clueless how large corporate
research lab campus building are built, much less plumbed.

to house a
battery bank.....

Restrooms house paper towels and toilet tissue. There was no
mention of any bettery banks. Nice try though.

If you have room for that, you have room
for a tank....

Installation and maintainence... hmmm. First thing to go on a
24/7/365 daily use gas fired tank? The thermocouple and gas line
switch. How often? Pretty friggin often.

My system? Plug it in... turn it on.

Nice try though, child.