OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness...

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 7:28 AM, John Doe wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

John Doe wrote:

In any case, lower wattage means lower temperature. They should
specify wattage as a requirement, instead.

No. Lower watts means lower rate of CHANGING temperature for a
given thermal mass.

No. You are suggesting they have some sort of sophisticated
temperature measuring device. They don\'t.

You think they actually monitor the temperature of your food, as if
you stuck a temperature probe into it? That\'s silly. Not for cheap.

No, they monitor the temperature of the AIR in the oven. Just like every
oven that has ever been created!

Your household oven has a temperature dial on it, doesn\'t it?
Do you stick a PROBE in the steak that you\'re cooking?
When you bake cupcakes, do you stick a probe in the cupcakes?

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 7:45 AM, John Doe wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
John Doe wrote:

An air fryer. Settings.

Fan speed, temperature, and Watts.

What\'s the difference between temperature and Watts?

If it\'s set to 400°, what\'s the difference between 600 W
and 1300 W?

I just don\'t get it.

one difference would be how fast it reaches the set
temperature.

And the amount of food it can cope with to maintain that
temperature.

Only if you assume the fan speed varies AND the cooking
temperature is monitored. Not the case here.

The temperature of the AIR is likely monitored and used to control
the heating element.

You think? I don\'t think so. More likely, as you should know, it\'s
just a preset current through the heating element that is hopefully
resulting in a temperature corresponding to the oven setting.

No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\"
for the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY
results in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much
mass you have in side?
Have you never taken an oven thermometer and set it IN the oven
to check to see how accurate the DIAL TEMPERATURE SETTING is?
Put a turkey in the oven. Measure temperature.
Remove turkey and put in a cake.

Don\'t you know how an oven works?

Set the temperature to its minimum. Observe element (or, observe
power drawn from mains). It will likely cycle at a slow rate or
duty cycle (depending on control algorithm).

Very likely I will in fact do that. But my wattage meter is
temporarily monitoring a new portable freezer. It will be free for
use on the air fryer within a few weeks.

The air fryer operation has nothing to do with volume of food.

The fryer is doing *work*. Watts define the RATE at which work is
being done.

Just like the heating element temperature, that\'s also a setting on
the air fryer.

But if you limit the Watts, your oven temperature setting won\'t
function properly.

No, that\'s not guaranteed to be the case. It depends on the thermal
mass involved and the amount of \"heat\" it has already absorbed.

You can keep a 20 pound turkey \"at temperature\" with a lot less
power (effort per unit time) than you can a FROZEN turkey!

That might be good for people who have
substandard electrical wiring and maybe think they will soon move
into a better place or get their wiring fixed.

 

[John Robertson]

On 2020/08/22 1:49 a.m., Don Y wrote:

On 8/21/2020 10:30 PM, John Doe wrote:
In any case, lower wattage means lower temperature. They should specify
wattage as a requirement, instead.

No.  Lower watts means lower rate of CHANGING temperature for a given
thermal
mass.

Leave the device empty.  Set temperature to maximum and wattage to minimum.
I suspect you will discover that it can attain that maximum temperature
in some amount of time.

Now, put a chunk of lead in it and set temperature to minimum and
wattage to
maximum.  Why is it taking so long to \"cook\" that chunk of lead??  You\'ve
set the desired temperature LOWER and the \"rate of work\" higher... yet it\'s
still COLD (room temperature) when you take it out 5 minutes later!

The Russian weasel does not believe in the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. It
is pointless to argue with him.

John

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 11:01 AM, John Robertson wrote:

On 2020/08/22 1:49 a.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/21/2020 10:30 PM, John Doe wrote:
In any case, lower wattage means lower temperature. They should specify
wattage as a requirement, instead.

No. Lower watts means lower rate of CHANGING temperature for a given thermal
mass.

Leave the device empty. Set temperature to maximum and wattage to minimum.
I suspect you will discover that it can attain that maximum temperature
in some amount of time.

Now, put a chunk of lead in it and set temperature to minimum and wattage to
maximum. Why is it taking so long to \"cook\" that chunk of lead?? You\'ve
set the desired temperature LOWER and the \"rate of work\" higher... yet it\'s
still COLD (room temperature) when you take it out 5 minutes later!

The Russian weasel does not believe in the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. It is
pointless to argue with him.

1st: You can\'t win.
2nd: You can\'t break even.
3rd: You can\'t even quit the game!

 

[John Doe]

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
John Doe wrote:

An air fryer. Settings.

Fan speed, temperature, and Watts.

What\'s the difference between temperature and Watts?

If it\'s set to 400°, what\'s the difference between
600 W and 1300 W?

I just don\'t get it.

one difference would be how fast it reaches the set
temperature.

And the amount of food it can cope with to maintain that
temperature.

Only if you assume the fan speed varies AND the cooking
temperature is monitored. Not the case here.

The temperature of the AIR is likely monitored and used to
control the heating element.

You think? I don\'t think so. More likely, as you should know,
it\'s just a preset current through the heating element that is
hopefully resulting in a temperature corresponding to the oven
setting.

No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\" for
the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY results
in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much mass you
have in side?

A typical oven cost a lot more than $60.

Have you never taken an oven thermometer and set it IN the oven
to check to see how accurate the DIAL TEMPERATURE SETTING is? Put
a turkey in the oven. Measure temperature. Remove turkey and put
in a cake.

Don\'t you know how an oven works?

Don\'t you know how almost any cheap device with a heating element
and a fan in it works?

Set the temperature to its minimum. Observe element (or,
observe power drawn from mains). It will likely cycle at a slow
rate or duty cycle (depending on control algorithm).

Very likely I will in fact do that. But my wattage meter is
temporarily monitoring a new portable freezer. It will be free
for use on the air fryer within a few weeks.

The air fryer operation has nothing to do with volume of food.

The fryer is doing *work*. Watts define the RATE at which work
is being done.

Just like the heating element temperature, that\'s also a setting
on the air fryer.

But if you limit the Watts, your oven temperature setting won\'t
function properly.

No, that\'s not guaranteed to be the case.

It doesn\'t have to be guaranteed, it\'s still called \"not functioning
properly\".

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 12:12 PM, John Doe wrote:

Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
John Doe wrote:

An air fryer. Settings.

Fan speed, temperature, and Watts.

What\'s the difference between temperature and Watts?

If it\'s set to 400°, what\'s the difference between
600 W and 1300 W?

I just don\'t get it.

one difference would be how fast it reaches the set
temperature.

And the amount of food it can cope with to maintain that
temperature.

Only if you assume the fan speed varies AND the cooking
temperature is monitored. Not the case here.

The temperature of the AIR is likely monitored and used to
control the heating element.

You think? I don\'t think so. More likely, as you should know,
it\'s just a preset current through the heating element that is
hopefully resulting in a temperature corresponding to the oven
setting.

No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\" for
the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY results
in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much mass you
have in side?

A typical oven cost a lot more than $60.

Not a cheap toaster oven!

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element and operate the
ejector. When you set it for \"light\", it deflects less. The
deflection is a function of how much \"energy\" (heat) it absorbs.

You could, alternately, drive a toaster based on TIME. But, then
different loads would achieve different final temperatures.

[This is somewhat the case, already, as the heating element is often
isolated from the bimetal sensing element by the item being toasted!]

Have you never taken an oven thermometer and set it IN the oven
to check to see how accurate the DIAL TEMPERATURE SETTING is? Put
a turkey in the oven. Measure temperature. Remove turkey and put
in a cake.

Don\'t you know how an oven works?

Don\'t you know how almost any cheap device with a heating element
and a fan in it works?

Yes, there\'s a thermostat that controls the temperature of the
interior space.

Or, there is NO thermostat and no control of temperature.

The only heating elements operated \"open loop\" are the stovetop
\"calrods\". Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged. You can also find an occasional
\"automatic calrod\" that has a spring-loaded heat sensor that
makes contact with the bottom of the pan on the burner and uses that
to drive the feedback loop. On such a stovetop, you will note
that the autocalrod burner\'s control is marked in DEGREES!
(just like the oven controls).

[I\'ve not looked at induction stovetops to see how they are
controlled. Are the \"settings\" for each burner calibrated
in degrees? Or, \"low... medium... high\"? Do they maintain a
particular temperature setting? Or, just a particular \"energy
output rate\"?]

Set the temperature to its minimum. Observe element (or,
observe power drawn from mains). It will likely cycle at a slow
rate or duty cycle (depending on control algorithm).

Very likely I will in fact do that. But my wattage meter is
temporarily monitoring a new portable freezer. It will be free
for use on the air fryer within a few weeks.

The air fryer operation has nothing to do with volume of food.

The fryer is doing *work*. Watts define the RATE at which work
is being done.

Just like the heating element temperature, that\'s also a setting
on the air fryer.

But if you limit the Watts, your oven temperature setting won\'t
function properly.

No, that\'s not guaranteed to be the case.

It doesn\'t have to be guaranteed, it\'s still called \"not functioning
properly\".

No, it isn\'t. Just like there\'s no guarantee that running a microwave
\"on high\" (open loop!) will bring a given volume of water to a boil in
a fixed amount of time. A 600W microwave may take minutes while a
1000W microwave takes far less time.

But BOTH of them will COMPLETELY EVAPORATE a teaspoon of water left in there
for *30* minutes!

Watts = work done per unit time. It takes more work/effort to bring
a quart of water to a boil (from room temperature) than it does to
bring a teaspoon.

It takes more work to bring a frozen turkey to 300F than it does to
being a 1/4 pound hamburger.

If you limit the rate at which work can be performed, then you extend
the time required to perform a given task (\"amount of work\").

But, if you can achieve the end GOAL of that task in LESS time than
allotted, you\'ve met the goal (i.e., cooked the turkey).

Look at it another way: an oven (full size) often has heating elements on
top and bottom. And, depending on the \"mode\" that you\'ve configured
the oven to operate, you either use the top, bottom, or BOTH elements.
So, you are delivering more energy to the thermal load (your pot roast)
with both elements on than you would if you were just trying to broil a steak
AT THE SAME TEMPERATURE SETTING.

This isn\'t rocket science. Housewives have known how to operate ovens
for generations!

 

[John Doe]

https://www.hotairfrying.com/a-hot-air-fryer-is-not-necessarily-an-energy-saver/

\"In contrast, hot air fryers are smaller, but they are running all
the time that they are being used, because they need to continuously
blow superheated air.\"

And speaking of blowing hot air...

--
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:51:51 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 143
Message-ID: <rhrt1c$oqt$1@dont-email.me
References: <rhjrk9$jvh$1@dont-email.me> <cc7ba6aa-da71-44eb-bdb3-a9d5ae5106c3o@googlegroups.com> <B3T%G.104782$pk7.81970@fx09.ams1> <rhq920$k48$1@dont-email.me> <rhqm0h$jl5$1@dont-email.me> <rhrb2k$q9q$5@dont-email.me> <rhrf7k$3vm$1@dont-email.me> <rhrqme$uic$3@dont-email.me
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 19:52:12 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host=\"3a78252f9763f346bb338197be069e96\"; logging-data=\"25437\"; mail-complaints-to=\"abuse@eternal-september.org\"; posting-account=\"U2FsdGVkX1/vzRuhdTquEd4JfRFBKs0A\"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:G89b8+0v1ygGVHoKZh/iSakfwQc=
In-Reply-To: <rhrqme$uic$3@dont-email.me
Content-Language: en-US
Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:606219

On 8/22/2020 12:12 PM, John Doe wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

John Doe wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
John Doe wrote:
Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote:
rangerssuck wrote:
John Doe wrote:

An air fryer. Settings.

Fan speed, temperature, and Watts.

What\'s the difference between temperature and Watts?

If it\'s set to 400ǟ\'\'ǽƒ\'ª­ÇŸƒ sÇ\'¶ø, what\'s the difference between
600 W and 1300 W?

I just don\'t get it.

one difference would be how fast it reaches the set
temperature.

And the amount of food it can cope with to maintain that
temperature.

Only if you assume the fan speed varies AND the cooking
temperature is monitored. Not the case here.

The temperature of the AIR is likely monitored and used to
control the heating element.

You think? I don\'t think so. More likely, as you should know,
it\'s just a preset current through the heating element that is
hopefully resulting in a temperature corresponding to the oven
setting.

No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\" for
the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY results
in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much mass you
have in side?

A typical oven cost a lot more than $60.

Not a cheap toaster oven!

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element and operate the
ejector. When you set it for \"light\", it deflects less. The
deflection is a function of how much \"energy\" (heat) it absorbs.

You could, alternately, drive a toaster based on TIME. But, then
different loads would achieve different final temperatures.

[This is somewhat the case, already, as the heating element is often
isolated from the bimetal sensing element by the item being toasted!]

Have you never taken an oven thermometer and set it IN the oven
to check to see how accurate the DIAL TEMPERATURE SETTING is? Put
a turkey in the oven. Measure temperature. Remove turkey and put
in a cake.

Don\'t you know how an oven works?

Don\'t you know how almost any cheap device with a heating element
and a fan in it works?

Yes, there\'s a thermostat that controls the temperature of the
interior space.

Or, there is NO thermostat and no control of temperature.

The only heating elements operated \"open loop\" are the stovetop
\"calrods\". Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged. You can also find an occasional
\"automatic calrod\" that has a spring-loaded heat sensor that
makes contact with the bottom of the pan on the burner and uses that
to drive the feedback loop. On such a stovetop, you will note
that the autocalrod burner\'s control is marked in DEGREES!
(just like the oven controls).

[I\'ve not looked at induction stovetops to see how they are
controlled. Are the \"settings\" for each burner calibrated
in degrees? Or, \"low... medium... high\"? Do they maintain a
particular temperature setting? Or, just a particular \"energy
output rate\"?]

Set the temperature to its minimum. Observe element (or,
observe power drawn from mains). It will likely cycle at a slow
rate or duty cycle (depending on control algorithm).

Very likely I will in fact do that. But my wattage meter is
temporarily monitoring a new portable freezer. It will be free
for use on the air fryer within a few weeks.

The air fryer operation has nothing to do with volume of food.

The fryer is doing *work*. Watts define the RATE at which work
is being done.

Just like the heating element temperature, that\'s also a setting
on the air fryer.

But if you limit the Watts, your oven temperature setting won\'t
function properly.

No, that\'s not guaranteed to be the case.

It doesn\'t have to be guaranteed, it\'s still called \"not functioning
properly\".

No, it isn\'t. Just like there\'s no guarantee that running a microwave
\"on high\" (open loop!) will bring a given volume of water to a boil in
a fixed amount of time. A 600W microwave may take minutes while a
1000W microwave takes far less time.

But BOTH of them will COMPLETELY EVAPORATE a teaspoon of water left in there
for *30* minutes!

Watts = work done per unit time. It takes more work/effort to bring
a quart of water to a boil (from room temperature) than it does to
bring a teaspoon.

It takes more work to bring a frozen turkey to 300F than it does to
being a 1/4 pound hamburger.

If you limit the rate at which work can be performed, then you extend
the time required to perform a given task (\"amount of work\").

But, if you can achieve the end GOAL of that task in LESS time than
allotted, you\'ve met the goal (i.e., cooked the turkey).

Look at it another way: an oven (full size) often has heating elements on
top and bottom. And, depending on the \"mode\" that you\'ve configured
the oven to operate, you either use the top, bottom, or BOTH elements.
So, you are delivering more energy to the thermal load (your pot roast)
with both elements on than you would if you were just trying to broil a steak
AT THE SAME TEMPERATURE SETTING.

This isn\'t rocket science. Housewives have known how to operate ovens
for generations!

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 1:50 PM, John Doe wrote:

https://www.hotairfrying.com/a-hot-air-fryer-is-not-necessarily-an-energy-saver/

\"In contrast, hot air fryers are smaller, but they are running all
the time that they are being used, because they need to continuously
blow superheated air.\"

Then there is NO need for a temperature control, right?
(wrong!)

> And speaking of blowing hot air...

(sigh) Does it HURT to be so dumb??

 

[John Doe]

Saying there is no difference between cooking something at 400° for
a short time in cooking something at 200° for a long time (and all
its blathering variations) shows this poster knows NOTHING about
cooking. This thing is insane and/or a rabid troll...

--
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,free.spam
Subject: Re: OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:15:15 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <rhs1te$kt6$1@dont-email.me
References: <rhjrk9$jvh$1@dont-email.me> <cc7ba6aa-da71-44eb-bdb3-a9d5ae5106c3o@googlegroups.com> <B3T%G.104782$pk7.81970@fx09.ams1> <rhq920$k48$1@dont-email.me> <rhqm0h$jl5$1@dont-email.me> <rhrb2k$q9q$5@dont-email.me> <rhrf7k$3vm$1@dont-email.me> <rhrqme$uic$3@dont-email.me> <rhrt1c$oqt$1@dont-email.me> <rhs0f3$ujb$2@dont-email.me
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 21:15:27 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host=\"3a78252f9763f346bb338197be069e96\"; logging-data=\"21414\"; mail-complaints-to=\"abuse@eternal-september.org\"; posting-account=\"U2FsdGVkX1/hWUPrmT4nzSOAW1Vfp75x\"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:s1g2fEi9CqewrqqbEPeEiQcnFps=
In-Reply-To: <rhs0f3$ujb$2@dont-email.me
Content-Language: en-US
Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:606224 free.spam:13280

On 8/22/2020 1:50 PM, John Doe wrote:
https://www.hotairfrying.com/a-hot-air-fryer-is-not-necessarily-an-energy-saver/

\"In contrast, hot air fryers are smaller, but they are running all
the time that they are being used, because they need to continuously
blow superheated air.\"

Then there is NO need for a temperature control, right?
(wrong!)

And speaking of blowing hot air...

(sigh) Does it HURT to be so dumb??

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 1:50 PM, John Doe wrote:

https://www.hotairfrying.com/a-hot-air-fryer-is-not-necessarily-an-energy-saver/

\"In contrast, hot air fryers are smaller, but they are running all
the time that they are being used, because they need to continuously
blow superheated air.\"

And speaking of blowing hot air...

From the amazon link YOU posted:

\"NUWAVE BRIO 3-Quart Digital Air Fryer cooking package with one-touch
digital controls, 6 easy presets, **PRECISE TEMPERATURE CONTROL**, recipe
book, wattage control, and advanced functions like PREHEAT and REHEAT\"

(emphasis mine -- below, as well).

From the manual for the device:

\"To set a different COOKING TEMPERATURE or time, refer to the Adjusting
Temperature and Adjusting Time sections.\"

\"The \"Pre-Heat\" function ensures that the NuWave Brio Digital Air Fryer
REACHES THE *DESIRED* TEMPERATURE before you begin cooking your food.\"

\"The control panel will display \"360˚F\" . \"Pre-Heat\" and \"Temp\" will be
FLASHING. If needed, manually ADJUST the cooking TEMPERATURE and time,
then press \"Start/Pause\" . Once you press \"Start\", the ***CURRENT***
NuWave Brio Digital Air Fryer temperature will be displayed as well as
\"Pre-Heat\" .

\"Once the NuWave Brio Digital Air Fryer REACHES THE SET TEMPERATURE,
the control panel will display \"Ready\" and the NuWave Brio Digital
Air Fryer will beep once.\"

\"You can CHANGE THE COOKING TEMPERATURE at any point during the
cooking process\"

\"Once your temperature has been selected, the NuWave Brio Digital
Air Fryer will AUTOMATICALLY ADJUST TO THE NEW TEMPERATURE\"

Error codes:
E1 Sensor open ended
E2 Sensor short circuit
E3 overheat

(Maybe it uses telepathy to figure out the current temperature!? Or,
could it be that there is something -- let\'s call it a SENSOR -- that
somehow SENSES the current temperature? And, perhaps, uses that to
control the heating element?? Or, maybe the stated sensor is used
to detect variations in the local gravitational field intensity???)

Take the thing apart and have a look for yourself. It will be the
CHEAPEST education you\'ve NEVER received!

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 2:27 PM, John Doe wrote:

Saying there is no difference between cooking something at 400° for
a short time in cooking something at 200° for a long time (and all
its blathering variations) shows this poster knows NOTHING about
cooking. This thing is insane and/or a rabid troll...

Ask your grade school teacher to help you understand what was written.
I know some of the words had more than a couple of letters so imagine
they might be hard for you to understand.

Maybe your neighbor\'s 6 year-old can help you??

C\'mon, moron! Take the thing apart. Or, borrow your watt-meter if you
want to have ANY chance of disputing MY claims. Post a Youtube video
of the watt-meter\'s display while the unit is \"cycling\". Then, explain why
it\'s cycling (if not to control temperature).

Bye bye, stupid person. Go back to your free.spam newsgroup as that seems to
be all you\'re posting!

 

[Tabby]

On Saturday, 22 August 2020 20:52:19 UTC+1, Don Y wrote:

On 8/22/2020 12:12 PM, John Doe wrote:

No. Do you think your household oven has a \"preset current\" for
the heaating elements? And, that somehow that MAGICALLY results
in a 350 degree oven temperature regardless of how much mass you
have in side?

A typical oven cost a lot more than $60.

Not a cheap toaster oven!

Even a REAL toaster has a temperature control inside. When you set
for \"dark\", the bimetal element (legacy toaster) has to deflect
more to break the current to the heating element and operate the
ejector. When you set it for \"light\", it deflects less. The
deflection is a function of how much \"energy\" (heat) it absorbs.

You could, alternately, drive a toaster based on TIME. But, then
different loads would achieve different final temperatures.

I\'ve made enough use of old clockwork controlled toasters to know that\'s cobblers.

 

[John Doe]

And speaking of CONTINUOUSLY blowing hot air...

--
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

Path: eternal-september.org!reader01.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: OT: Kitchen appliance weirdness
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:35:42 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <rhs33p$r9r$1@dont-email.me
References: <rhjrk9$jvh$1@dont-email.me> <cc7ba6aa-da71-44eb-bdb3-a9d5ae5106c3o@googlegroups.com> <B3T%G.104782$pk7.81970@fx09.ams1> <rhq920$k48$1@dont-email.me> <rhqm0h$jl5$1@dont-email.me> <rhrb2k$q9q$5@dont-email.me> <rhrf7k$3vm$1@dont-email.me> <rhrqme$uic$3@dont-email.me> <rhrt1c$oqt$1@dont-email.me> <rhs0f3$ujb$2@dont-email.me
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 21:35:53 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host=\"3a78252f9763f346bb338197be069e96\"; logging-data=\"27963\"; mail-complaints-to=\"abuse@eternal-september.org\"; posting-account=\"U2FsdGVkX1+VXr7JFYk0hKyno/BdrwH+\"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:tS+roBT5m00uWXd3C3ZvD75YkQQ=
In-Reply-To: <rhs0f3$ujb$2@dont-email.me
Content-Language: en-US
Xref: reader01.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:606226

On 8/22/2020 1:50 PM, John Doe wrote:
https://www.hotairfrying.com/a-hot-air-fryer-is-not-necessarily-an-energy-saver/

\"In contrast, hot air fryers are smaller, but they are running all
the time that they are being used, because they need to continuously
blow superheated air.\"

And speaking of blowing hot air...

From the amazon link YOU posted:

\"NUWAVE BRIO 3-Quart Digital Air Fryer cooking package with one-touch
digital controls, 6 easy presets, **PRECISE TEMPERATURE CONTROL**, recipe
book, wattage control, and advanced functions like PREHEAT and REHEAT\"

(emphasis mine -- below, as well).

From the manual for the device:

\"To set a different COOKING TEMPERATURE or time, refer to the Adjusting
Temperature and Adjusting Time sections.\"

\"The \"Pre-Heat\" function ensures that the NuWave Brio Digital Air Fryer
REACHES THE *DESIRED* TEMPERATURE before you begin cooking your food.\"

\"The control panel will display \"360ÓsF\" . \"Pre-Heat\" and \"Temp\" will be
FLASHING. If needed, manually ADJUST the cooking TEMPERATURE and time,
then press \"Start/Pause\" . Once you press \"Start\", the ***CURRENT***
NuWave Brio Digital Air Fryer temperature will be displayed as well as
\"Pre-Heat\" .

\"Once the NuWave Brio Digital Air Fryer REACHES THE SET TEMPERATURE,
the control panel will display \"Ready\" and the NuWave Brio Digital
Air Fryer will beep once.\"

\"You can CHANGE THE COOKING TEMPERATURE at any point during the
cooking process\"

\"Once your temperature has been selected, the NuWave Brio Digital
Air Fryer will AUTOMATICALLY ADJUST TO THE NEW TEMPERATURE\"

Error codes:
E1 Sensor open ended
E2 Sensor short circuit
E3 overheat

(Maybe it uses telepathy to figure out the current temperature!? Or,
could it be that there is something -- let\'s call it a SENSOR -- that
somehow SENSES the current temperature? And, perhaps, uses that to
control the heating element?? Or, maybe the stated sensor is used
to detect variations in the local gravitational field intensity???)

Take the thing apart and have a look for yourself. It will be the
CHEAPEST education you\'ve NEVER received!

 

[Phil Allison]

Don Y wrote:
===========

The only heating elements operated \"open loop\" are the stovetop
\"calrods\".

** New name to me - seeems \"Calrod\" is a trade name owned by GE.

The name used here in Australia is simply \"element\" - stovetop, oven or kettle etc.

Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils engaged.

** Nope.

Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers that are rated to work with a certain current and switch power on and off with an adjustable duty cycle.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/252352/setting-heat-on-electric-stove

The thermal inertia of the element prevents you observing the cycling going on. An amp meter would display it very clearly.



..... Phil

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 5:11 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

Don Y wrote: ===========

Their heat output is usually controlled by switching the number of coils
engaged.

** Nope.

Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers that are rated
to work with a certain current and switch power on and off with an
adjustable duty cycle.

Some stoves have (had?) \"elements\" that consisted of two isolated
\"units\" interwound.

<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/adYAAOSwvapcNhzc/s-l640.jpg>

Note the *4* connections to the element! (you can trace them
with your eyes)

Growing up, our stovetop had pushbuttons to set the heat level:
LO put the two elements in series
2 turned on the \"two loop\" element
3 turned on the \"three loop\" element
HI turned on both (in parallel)

(there was at least one other button -- besides OFF -- but I can\'t
recall it\'s name or effect; as a kid, I wondered why they weren\'t
labeled 1, 2, 3, 4...)

<https://clickamericana.com/topics/home-garden/ge-deluxe-speed-cooking-ranges-1955>

The point is that the control is entirely open-loop. Put a pot
of water on the \"burner\" and the temperature achieved would vary
based on the time and quantity of water in the pot. Regardless of
whether you\'ve switched which set of coils operate OR use a mechanical
PWM. There\'s no feedback from the load.

By contrast, the \"automatic calrod\" drove the temperature to a
specific temperature that you specified AND MAINTAINED IT.

You can just barely notice the difference in the \"center portion\"
of the heating element for the front left burner in the above
brochure. Compare to the first calrod image cited.

The automatic calrod used the same temperature control mechanism as
the *oven* -- but the \"sensing bulb\" was located in the center of
the burner and spring-loaded to press against the underside of
the pot that was being heated.

(Cheap) toaster ovens tend to use mechanical switches where the
amount of deflection required of the bimetal strip is adjusted
to control the temperature (the switch indirectly experiences
the heat from the oven)

<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/380484078332-0-1/s-l1000.jpg>

 

[Phil Allison]

Don Y is being a PITA wrote:

==============================

Their heat output is usually controlled by switching the number of coils
engaged.

** Nope.

Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers
that are rated to work with a certain current and switch
power on and off with an
adjustable duty cycle.


Some stoves have (had?) \"elements\" that consisted of two isolated
\"units\" interwound.

** Some = almost none.

You over trimmed & ignored my factual post completely.

Fuck you.

..... Phil

 

[Don Y]

On 8/22/2020 5:52 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

Don Y is being a PITA wrote:

==============================

Their heat output is usually controlled by switching the number of coils
engaged.

** Nope.

Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers
that are rated to work with a certain current and switch
power on and off with an
adjustable duty cycle.


Some stoves have (had?) \"elements\" that consisted of two isolated
\"units\" interwound.


** Some = almost none.

You over trimmed & ignored my factual post completely.

Gee, I elided your comment:

\"** New name to me - seeems \"Calrod\" is a trade name owned by GE.

The name used here in Australia is simply \"element\" - stovetop, oven
or kettle etc.\"

Not sure how that is insulting or pertinent to my reply!

And:

\"The thermal inertia of the element prevents you observing the cycling
going on. An amp meter would display it very clearly.\"

which, also, doesn\'t seem to add anything to the statement of yours
that I *cited*!

I attempted to provide a basis for MY previous comment. Clearly something
that *you\'d* never encountered, previously (as your initial statement admits!)

Oh, and lest I be accused of \"over trimming\" the post to which this is a reply:

Fuck you.

.... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

Don Y is a fucking PITA troll wrote:

==================================

Their heat output is usually controlled by switching
the number of coils
engaged.

** Nope.

Stovetop elements (or hobs) use mechanical power controllers
that are rated to work with a certain current and switch
power on and off with an
adjustable duty cycle.


Some stoves have (had?) \"elements\" that consisted of two isolated
\"units\" interwound.


** Some = almost none.

You over trimmed & ignored my factual post completely.

Gee, I elided your comment:

** \"elided\" ???

Not sure how that is insulting or pertinent to my reply!

** Stupid, wrong & irrelevant crap.

And:

\"The thermal inertia of the element prevents you observing the cycling
going on. An amp meter would display it very clearly.\"

which, also, doesn\'t seem to add anything to the statement of yours
that I *cited*!

** You cited nothing and instead ignored what I wrote.

Re-posting but ignoring is NOT \"citing\" - fuckwit.

I attempted to provide a basis for MY previous comment.

** That is a lie, you ignored my post and kept on with your insanity.

You snipped the link in my post which is CRUCIAL to show what nearly all stove tops really use.

The you make it all worse by acting like a jerk.

Fuck you.

..... Phil

 

[amdx]

On 8/19/2020 8:01 PM, rangerssuck wrote:

On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 8:35:19 PM UTC-4, bule...@columbus.rr.com wrote:
You are over thinking it. The competition has 2 control knobs.....you have 3
reminiscent of \"the battle of the bulbs\" back in the old days of radio when manufacturers would add tubes with nothing more than their filaments wired so they\'d light up.

We have more tubes. We must be better.

 I think there is something to it. Less watts would limit maximum
temperature.

Max watts could over heat the food and would over shoot during each
cycle, lower watts could stay on much longer at

a lower temp but still maintain desired temp.

 I setup a temporary Sous Vide with a temp controller (STC-1000). I
used a single burner with a

large pot of water on top.

  When I started, the burner turn on would overshoot my set temperature
of 137*F

by about 12*F.  I added an 8 ohm resistor in series with the burner and
lowered the over shoot to about

2*F.

I saw a 2 for 1 sale on Bottom round, so I tried Sous Vide on it. I
sliced it in 1\" thick pieces, seasoned it,

bagged each piece separately and cooked it for 18 hrs. I froze all the
bags, then when I want a quick piece of beef,

I quickly thaw it in hot water and brown it in a pan with some olive
oil. It turned out pink and tender. I\'ll do it again.

I\'ll probably buy a real sous vide machine, because they also circulate
the water.

 I have got a lot of use from the STC-1000 in several different uses, I
really like it.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=STC-1000&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
                             Mikek

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

 

[Don Y]

On 8/23/2020 8:39 AM, amdx wrote:

On 8/19/2020 8:01 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 8:35:19 PM UTC-4, bule...@columbus.rr.com
wrote:
You are over thinking it. The competition has 2 control knobs.....you have 3
reminiscent of \"the battle of the bulbs\" back in the old days of radio when
manufacturers would add tubes with nothing more than their filaments wired so
they\'d light up.

We have more tubes. We must be better.

I think there is something to it. Less watts would limit maximum temperature.

It limits the amount of \"work\" that can be done. So, for certain
thermal loads, it won\'t be able to overcome losses and, thus, limit
the FINAL temperature for *that* load.

Max watts could over heat the food and would over shoot during each cycle,
lower watts could stay on much longer at a lower temp but still maintain desired temp.

Like defrosting a turkey in a \"fast\" oven.

I setup a temporary Sous Vide with a temp controller (STC-1000). I used a
single burner with a large pot of water on top.

When I started, the burner turn on would overshoot my set temperature of 137*F
by about 12*F. I added an 8 ohm resistor in series with the burner and lowered
the over shoot to about 2*F.

You\'re changing the plant to compensate for a mis-tuned controller.
This brings the response closer to critically damped (from underdamped).

I saw a 2 for 1 sale on Bottom round, so I tried Sous Vide on it. I sliced it
in 1\" thick pieces, seasoned it, bagged each piece separately and cooked it for
18 hrs.

Wow! It takes THAT long? Have you played with the temperature setting to
see if you can trade time for quality/taste? E.g., how much faster you
could finish at ~150F and whether or not there would be any differences
in taste/texture?

(I don\'t mind reiterating baking efforts as the whole process is usually
a couple of hours. If I had to wait 18 hours for each turn of the
crank, that would be tedious!)

I froze all the bags, then when I want a quick piece of beef, I quickly thaw
it in hot water and brown it in a pan with some olive oil.

We do that with steaks and meatloaf. We let steaks thaw \"naturally\" (take
it out of freezer in morning, cook it at noon) and don\'t bother thawing
the meatloaf -- a couple of minutes in the microwave, on high, thaws and
reheats (meatloaf was cooked before freezing) so ready to plate!

(I make really GREAT meatloaf!)

It turned out pink and tender. I\'ll do it again.
I\'ll probably buy a real sous vide machine, because they also circulate the water.

What have you found Sous Vide to be POORLY suited to? I don\'t mind spending
a day preparing meals that can be frozen (e.g., I make \"red sauce\" in 16 qt
batches, meatloaf in 10 pound lots, etc) but I\'d be annoyed if the results
weren\'t worth the time expended!

I have got a lot of use from the STC-1000 in several different uses, I really
like it.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=STC-1000&ref=nb_sb_noss_2