OT: I was suddenly struck with a thought (POLITICAL)

Daniel Haude · Jan 5, 2005

["Followup-To:" header set to sci.electronics.design.]
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:07:54 +0000 (UTC),
Reg Edwards <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote
in Msg. <crepia$cls$2@sparta.btinternet.com>

The USA has never entered a war except in its own calculated best interests.

No country ever has.

Wars have always ended with the USA being even more powerful, dictatorial
and RICHER.

Other countries have been less lucky -- although Germany did pretty
well by losing the war.
--Daniel

Jim Backus · Jan 5, 2005

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:31:50 UTC, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

But that probably isn't enough to make you think we are informed, and care.

That's unfair - my point was that if the tsunami wasn't making the
news, you wouldn't be aware of it; obviously it is, and you are. My
original comment was more about the media's tendency to headlines
along the lines of "Huge tidal wave, thousands dead, no Britons die"
or ignoring foreign stories altogether.

--
Jim Backus OS/2 user since 1994
bona fide replies to j <dot> backus <the circle thingy> jita <dot>
demon <dot> co <dot> uk

John Larkin · Jan 5, 2005

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:57:44 +0100, "Frithiof Andreas Jensen"
<frithiof.jensen@die_spammer_die.ericsson.com> wrote:

"Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:crepia$cls$2@sparta.btinternet.com...

The USA has never entered a war except in its own calculated best
interests.

Why the fschk *else* should one go to war? For Fun?!

Actually, that's been known to happen, when some goofball monarch has
delusions of being a great warrior and starts palling around with the
troops and covering himself with medals and stuff. Kaiser Willy did
that, and we got WWI.

John

Chuck Harris · Jan 5, 2005

Jim Backus wrote:

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:31:50 UTC, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

But that probably isn't enough to make you think we are informed, and care.

That's unfair - my point was that if the tsunami wasn't making the
news, you wouldn't be aware of it; obviously it is, and you are. My
original comment was more about the media's tendency to headlines
along the lines of "Huge tidal wave, thousands dead, no Britons die"
or ignoring foreign stories altogether.

It was a cheap shot from me, and for that I apologize. I am, however
getting pretty tired of all of the cheap shots coming from many of the
more vocal europeans. In spite of what y'all like to think, we as a
population are pretty well informed. We have many many more sources of
news than just Fox.

Given that many of our states are the size of european countries, does
it really surprise you that we might want to focus on some of the massive
amounts of local news they generate?

-Chuck

Reg Edwards · Jan 5, 2005

For some reason, over lunch, I was suddenly struck with an idea of why
the Eurotrash want to castigate the USA no matter what we do...

================================

It's not a matter of what you do.

It's a matter of what you have been doing for the last 50 years.

Try reading English language versions of foreign newspapers.

Sorry, it had to be said!

John Larkin · Jan 5, 2005

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:35:09 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
<g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote:

For some reason, over lunch, I was suddenly struck with an idea of why
the Eurotrash want to castigate the USA no matter what we do...

================================

It's not a matter of what you do.

It's a matter of what you have been doing for the last 50 years.

Like rebuilding Europe and defending it against the Soviets? And
forcing democracy on Japan? And keeping Korea from being one big North
Korea?

OK, big mistakes.

John

Richard the Dreaded Liber · Jan 5, 2005

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:17:01 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

For some reason, over lunch, I was suddenly struck with an idea of why
the Eurotrash want to castigate the USA no matter what we do...

The Eurotrash have always been fond of blaming someone else for their
woes.

In the late thirties it was the Jews.

Today that's not politically correct (though I suspect the Eurotrash
still think that way), so they attack the USA instead.

So I guess we need to watch our backsides, or it will be the furnaces
for us also :-(

So, who's been rattling your chain?

Whence this sudden outpouring of venom? Trying to work out some old
karma?

Good Luck,
Rich

Pig Bladder · Jan 5, 2005

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:07:54 +0000, Reg Edwards wrote:

They started two World Wars and dragged us into both of
them.

===========================

The USA has never entered a war except in its own calculated best interests.
Wars have always ended with the USA being even more powerful, dictatorial
and RICHER.

Reg, you fool.

Haven't you figured out yet that you can't penetrate the concrete heads of
this neocon mutual admiration society?
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, Still Waiting for
Some Hot Babe to Ask What My Favorite Planet Is.

Rich Grise · Jan 5, 2005

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 04:42:34 +0000, ehsjr wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Santa brought a nice dual-zone wine fridge with blue LED display--
which required wiring and cabinet modifications.

You could get Watson to make it blink.

ROFLMAO!

Thanks!
Rich

Pig Bladder · Jan 5, 2005

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:42:18 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 13:59:54 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 21:10:40 +0000 (UTC), "Jim Backus"
jhb@nospam.co.uk> wrote:

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 16:33:54 UTC, John Larkin <john@spamless.usa
wrote:

Oh, cut them some slack, Jim. For thousands of years thay lived in a
culture defined by warfare. They "claimed" most of the surface of the
planet and preceded to exterminate or enslave all the "savages" they
found there.

In the case of the US most of the slaughter of "savages" occurred
after you'd thrown the Brits out.

Sad but true. The country was growing, the "savages" idea was pretty
well established, and the French and Indian Wars set some bad
precedents. It's a *very* modern concept to respect other races and
cultures. Slavery in America was another unfortunate (dare I say
"European"?) legacy that was painful to overcome, and its aftermaths
linger to this day.

Hey, the world's getting better. I think. Blaming isn't helpful, but
remembering is.

John

How many people remember what happened in Indonesia in '65? And who
supported the Suharto thugs in the slaughter of more than a million of
their own people?

Indonesia? '65? Damn, that Divine Retribution stuff sure is slow.
--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, Still Waiting for
Some Hot Babe to Ask What My Favorite Planet Is.

Pig Bladder · Jan 5, 2005

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 21:20:58 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 02:56:40 GMT, "MaxChunk@ergebnis.de"
maximus.chunk@ergebnis.de> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
The Eurotrash have always been fond of blaming someone else for their
woes.
...Jim Thompson

Looks like Jim wants to blame the "Eurotrash" for his woes. He's even
given them a slanderous name to demonize them. What are your woes, Jim?

Yeesh...

Max

I have no "woes". It just hit home that Eurotrash is heading for a
depression... and they need to blame someone.

The old fart doth protest too much, methinks.

--
The Pig Bladder From Uranus, Still Waiting for
Some Hot Babe to Ask What My Favorite Planet Is.

Jim Thompson · Jan 6, 2005

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 02:36:44 GMT, richard mullens
<mullensdeletethis@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
For some reason, over lunch, I was suddenly struck with an idea of why
the Eurotrash want to castigate the USA no matter what we do...

The Eurotrash have always been fond of blaming someone else for their
woes.

In the late thirties it was the Jews.

Today that's not politically correct (though I suspect the Eurotrash
still think that way), so they attack the USA instead.

So I guess we need to watch our backsides, or it will be the furnaces
for us also :-(

It is quite simply that US foreign policy stinks. Surely nobody can deny that they have fucked up big time in Iraq. The
problem (as I see it) is that whereas all nations have a majority of their people who are uncivilised, in the USA it is they who
are in power.

We simply haven't applied enough troops to the problem.

Before the Iraq war, things weren't perfect there, but now there is complete anarchy. Ostensibly one should blame the US
electorate for this, but perhaps it is the result of the special interests of those who have connived to keep the populace in
ignorance - and pursued, frankly immoral policies with respect to Palestine and Israel.

Funny how Israel always comes up.

It is these policies that are the root of arab unrest - and all the while those in power are rubbing their hands with glee as
they are able to pass ever more repressive laws.

America claims to be a democracy, but with their people so polarised, one wonders if it might not be better if there was to be
proportional representation there.

I would simply gather together all the clerics and tell them, "Every
time a suicide bomb goes off a mosque will vanish from the face of the
earth".

Those little conniving, money-grubbing, POSs would get the message
right away and stop their "flocks" from continuing the crap.

But we've become too politically correct, and I predict the ultimate
downfall of the USA because of it :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Adam Stouffer · Jan 6, 2005

Jim Thompson wrote:

I would simply gather together all the clerics and tell them, "Every
time a suicide bomb goes off a mosque will vanish from the face of the
earth".

Those little conniving, money-grubbing, POSs would get the message
right away and stop their "flocks" from continuing the crap.

But we've become too politically correct, and I predict the ultimate
downfall of the USA because of it :-(

My dream is seeing their faces when we say "cold fusion has been
perfected and every home/vehicle can be fitted with a reactor for $100.
We won't be needing any more oil."

Adam

Jim Thompson · Jan 6, 2005

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 04:04:11 GMT, richard mullens
<mullensdeletethis@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]

But we've become too politically correct, and I predict the ultimate
downfall of the USA because of it :-(

Yes, it is your downfall that you want to be liked. Otherwise you could just nuke your opponents and be done with it. Problem
sorted.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Daniel Haude · Jan 6, 2005

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 09:21:29 -0500,
Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote
in Msg. <YsidnavirPJ3akbcRVn-uw@rcn.net>

The usual reason for starting a war is terratorial expansion. The US
hasn't done that in a century.

I know, but if you replace "territory" with "influence", which amounts to
pretty much the same you're back on track.

When we are done, Iraq will belong to Iraq, and the oil will once again
be Iraq's to sell.

....and the US influence on Iraq politics and economics back to pre-war
levels? I don't think that's what Bush's Halliburton friends expect.

--Daniel

Frithiof Andreas Jensen · Jan 6, 2005

"richard mullens" <mullensdeletethis@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:0v1Dd.3718$bY3.2670@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...

It is quite simply that US foreign policy stinks. Surely nobody can deny
that they have fucked up big time in Iraq.

Depends what the real objectives are - does it not?

If one objective f.ex. is to have the Jihaddis throw themselves at prepared
and armed US millitary on their selected battlefield instead of popping off
suicide bombs inside the the US then that Iraq already a success on that
account! Sticking close to a soon-to-be nuclear-armed known sponsor of
Islamic terrorim could be another. Keeping millitary reserves next to a
failing Saudi Kingdom could be a third. e.t.c.

The
problem (as I see it) is that whereas all nations have a majority of their
people who are uncivilised, in the USA it is they who
are in power.

The problem, as I see it, is that you believe that being Stupid, Naive,
Cowardly or downright Dishonest in the face of the re-emergence of a new
Nazism, this time cloaked as Islamism, is the same a being "Civilised". Like
the French president in his machinings with ELF and UN's Food-for-Oil
programme?

After Madrid, which demonstrated to the Jahaddi's how soft and weak the
Europeans are, there will be more such atrocities - and after a few of
those, the Europeans will return to their normal, historic, programme and
complain about the lack of industrialisation, real effort, zeal and virtuous
bigotry put into the task of "civilising the Arabs"!!

We *have* got the experience, the Americans - in spite of all the whining -
have not!

Before the Iraq war, things weren't perfect there, but now there is
complete anarchy.

The whole Arab world is more or less in Anarchy - in case you do not care to
Google round for info, the UNHDR has collected some:

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/view_reports.cfm?type=2

Amongst the worring facts are that the whole of the Arab world, about the
same size of the US or Europe, manages a GDB little above that of Belgium -
which is what they have to support a population of about 300 Million people
growing at 4.5% p/a. The GDP of "the Arabs" does not grow either!!

ignorance - and pursued, frankly immoral policies with respect to
Palestine and Israel.

..... and *who else* in the region *is there* to support *except* Israel?

It is these policies that are the root of arab unrest - and all the while
those in power are rubbing their hands with glee as
they are able to pass ever more repressive laws.

Arabs are the root of Arab unrest: While they are busy robbing and killing
each other, their societies are failing, birthrates are going beyound most
former third-world nations, each new generation is becoming poorer &
poorer - a human catastrophy is inevitable and while it passes the time to
blame Israel, USA & The Infidel it will not help.

America claims to be a democracy, but with their people so polarised, one
wonders if it might not be better if there was to be
proportional representation there.

....so no decision can be made and time & circumstance make the decision?

John Fields · Jan 6, 2005

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:35:09 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
<g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote:

For some reason, over lunch, I was suddenly struck with an idea of why
the Eurotrash want to castigate the USA no matter what we do...

================================

It's not a matter of what you do.

---
That's right. It's also not a matter of what we don't do, because no
matter what we choose to do or not do, there will always be hatred
directed toward us by those who disgree vehemently with what we did or
what we didn't do. So since we're damned if we do and damned if we
don't, we might as well proceed along the path we've chosen for
ourselves and and do what _we_ want to do.
---

It's a matter of what you have been doing for the last 50 years.

---
So, you condone our jumping into WW1 and WW2 in order to save some
so-called Allied ass, but you condemn everything we've done since
1955? Perhaps because you think it's made us bigger and more powerful
than your petty little mind thinks anyone has a _right_ to be? We're
doing what anyone else would have done, if they could have, and that
is to secure power for ourselves in order for the outcomes _we_ want
to come to pass to come to pass. Not what _you_ want, Reg, what _we_
want. And what is that? Let's hear what you think it is...
---

Try reading English language versions of foreign newspapers.

---
LOL! Like _any_ media are paragons of objectivity and truth.
---

Sorry, it had to be said!

---
An apology designed to lend credence to what went before by making it
look like you had the unpleasant duty of saying it? (Else why would
you say it if it wasn't true?) Grow up.

--
John Fields

John Larkin · Jan 6, 2005

On 6 Jan 2005 08:39:23 GMT, Daniel Haude
<haude@kir.physnet.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 09:21:29 -0500,
Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote
in Msg. <YsidnavirPJ3akbcRVn-uw@rcn.net

The usual reason for starting a war is terratorial expansion. The US
hasn't done that in a century.

I know, but if you replace "territory" with "influence", which amounts to
pretty much the same you're back on track.

Is "spreading democracy" equivalent to "influence" which is equivalent
to "empire"?

John

richard mullens · Jan 6, 2005

Frithiof Andreas Jensen wrote:

"richard mullens" <mullensdeletethis@ntlworld.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:mGfDd.590$b23.190@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...

I think that it is more likely that the objectives were to secure access
to the Iraqi oilfields and to foist a puppet American friendly government
on Iraq. It is not clear that these objectives will be achieved. "

I think that is too limited. Not worth billions of USD. Keeping China away
from cheap Oil as well *may* be worth the effort (even though China would
deal rather more swift & summarily with any resistance).

Personally, I believe that China has just as much a right to access to cheap oil as any other country. To act to prevent this
is, in my opinion, to invite trouble.

I don't think that we are going to reach agreement I'm afraid.

Mac · Jan 4, 2005

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:17:01 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

For some reason, over lunch, I was suddenly struck with an idea of why
the Eurotrash want to castigate the USA no matter what we do...

The Eurotrash have always been fond of blaming someone else for their
woes.

In the late thirties it was the Jews.

Today that's not politically correct (though I suspect the Eurotrash
still think that way), so they attack the USA instead.

So I guess we need to watch our backsides, or it will be the furnaces
for us also :-(

...Jim Thompson

How do you define eurotrash? This term had a specific meaning in the late
80's, but I think you are using it to mean something different from what I
understood it to mean.

--Mac

OT: I was suddenly struck with a thought (POLITICAL)

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