Old style filament lamps?

In article <ipbnl5$if2$1@dont-email.me>, grizzledgeezer@comcast.net
says...
British CFLs must be of very poor quality, because you can get
excellent
ones in the US. They come instantly -- faster than incandescent -- and have
good color balance.

I've replaced all but the miniature "decorative" lamps in my condo with
CFLs. I would never go back to incandescent.

I'm writing this in my den. The light is from a 100W-equivalent Home Depot
CFL in an IKEA shade. The /only/ way you can tell it's not incandescent is
by looking under the shade.
Click to expand...
Although many CFL's list the color temperature (2700K is roughly
equivalent to incandescent), they rarely list the CRI (Color Rendering
Index). That gives an idea on how well a bulb displays all colors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

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"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote in
news:slrnirj3aa.4g9.gsm@cable.mendelson.com:

William Sommerwerck wrote:

It's amazing that, despite their generally poor color rendering,
tubular FLs have long been tolerated in kitchens and workspaces.
Click to expand...
maybe color rendering isn't that important compared to seeing what you're
doing.The eye/brain manages to compensate,excpet under low light levels.

Besides,tungsten lighting(2700K or 3200K) isn't all that "color accurate"
itself. That's why color photo film came in tungsten variety,for better
color rendering for that color temp lighting. Even digital cameras have a
setting for color temp(my cheapo Polaroid does),not that people use them as
they should.
I can't quantify it, but I have a much brighter tubular floursecent
lamp over my head because of the color problems. It seems I need a lot
more light to read with them than an incadescent one.

Geoff.

you need color rendering accuracy to READ?
Click to expand...


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
 
On 4/28/2011 8:48 AM spamtrap1888 spake thus:

On Apr 28, 5:47 am, "William Sommerwerck"
grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:

We're been through this before.

British CFLs must be of very poor quality, because you can get
excellent ones in the US. They come instantly -- faster than
incandescent -- and have good color balance.

None that I can buy. In my double fixtures I have one incandescent and
one CFL. Otherwise I have to wait every time I turn on a light.

Further, none of the bulbs I can buy are rated to work outdoors. I put
one in my porchlight anyway, and it wore out in less time than an
incandescent.
Click to expand...
You're buying the wrong kind of CFLs, then.

All of the *newer* ones I have light almost instantly. Some older ones
have an annoying long startup time. But all of them last a looooong
time. Some of my CFLs are 8-9 years old and still working fine.

So where are you, anyhow?


--
The current state of literacy in our advanced civilization:

yo
wassup
nuttin
wan2 hang
k
where
here
k
l8tr
by

- from Usenet (what's *that*?)
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9ED5C3F112686jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote in
news:slrnirj3aa.4g9.gsm@cable.mendelson.com:
William Sommerwerck wrote:

It's amazing that, despite their generally poor color rendering,
tubular FLs have long been tolerated in kitchens and workspaces.

maybe color rendering isn't that important compared to seeing what you're
doing.The eye/brain manages to compensate,excpet under low light levels.
Click to expand...
It _is_ important in photography, where color accuracy is of considerably
greater significance than "seeing what you're doing".


Besides, tungsten lighting (2700K or 3200K) isn't all that "color
accurate"
itself.
Click to expand...
In this context, that's not really correct. Any continuous-spectrum lighting
source that's free of holes or peaks in its spectrum inherently has
"perfect" rendering. All it needs is a filter (or RGB gain adjustment) to
give correct rendering for any color temperature.

CFLs generally have discontinuous spectra, and vary widely in rendering
accuracy. The photographic CFLs in my Lowell ego lights are rated at 93%,
which is fairly good.
 
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ipbnl5$if2$1@dont-email.me...
I just looked on my favourite lamp buying site in the UK, and they don't
appear to do any standard lightbulbs except ecobollox types at all now.
Even
the halogen ones that Phil mentions, now don't seem to be available. I
have
one of those in my hallway, and it is superb. They are basically a
halogen
capsule bulb, inside a 'standard' lightbulb. The one I have is a pearl
type,
so nice even light, but I seem to recall someone saying that even those
had
been made available only in a clear glass outer shell, and now it looks
like
that has gone as well. It really pisses me off actually, that yet another
mature technology that gave good even and diffuse light - the whole
reason
that that pearlisation of the envelope was introduced in the first
place -
has now been forcibly replaced with an ecobollox product that doesn't
hold
a
candle (pun intended) to what it's replacing. I wouldn't mind if the end
justified the means. I read the other day that it has been calculated
that
in the UK, if every single conventional lightbulb was changed for an
ecobollox type, all it would save is the output from one small power
station.

We're been through this before.

British CFLs must be of very poor quality, because you can get excellent
ones in the US. They come instantly -- faster than incandescent -- and
have
good color balance.

I've replaced all but the miniature "decorative" lamps in my condo with
CFLs. I would never go back to incandescent.

I'm writing this in my den. The light is from a 100W-equivalent Home Depot
CFL in an IKEA shade. The /only/ way you can tell it's not incandescent is
by looking under the shade.

The bathroom has a 6-bulb "bar". The middle bulbs have been loosened so
they
won't light, and the end bulbs replaced with CFLs. Yeah, it looks a bit
funny. Big deal.
Click to expand...
Well. 'looking a bit funny' might be fine in your home, but it's not in
mine. Light fixtures are part of the decor, chosen as much for their
appearance, as for their lighting function, and I would like to still be
able to get the proper bulbs for them that their designers intended to go in
them. I don't want candle bulbs that are half as long again as the 'real'
thing and stick out of the shades, or convoluted spirals that look
ridiculous in open or glass shaded fixtures. I don't want to go to the local
store and be presented with 96 different bulb types, all vying with one
another to try to tell me what their equivalent power rating is. Even this
is shortly to be replaced over here with yet another piece of nonsense to
try to cover up the poor light output performance of them in comparison to
incandescent types, and that is to start rating them in "Lumens". But they
can't even agree on how that is actually measured, so a bulb with a lower
lumen figure could actually be subjectively brighter than a 'similar' one
with a higher quoted figure. 'Colour balance' is also a fairly meaningless
term. No matter how they mix the phosphors up on them to try to improve the
CRI, the spectrum never-the-less remains discontinuous in comparison to that
of an incandescent bulb. This is true no matter where they are sold or
manufactured. U.S. bought ones are no different in this respect to U.K.
bought ones. Contrary to what many Americans seem to think, the U.K. is not
a technically-backward banana republic.

Maybe you can't see anything wrong with them, and they suit your eyes, But
they are no good for me on both counts. I, and many others both here and
over there, *can* see their deficiencies, and don't like them. As indeed
prompted the OP to make his post ...

Arfa
 
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9ED5C3F112686jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote in
news:slrnirj3aa.4g9.gsm@cable.mendelson.com:

William Sommerwerck wrote:

It's amazing that, despite their generally poor color rendering,
tubular FLs have long been tolerated in kitchens and workspaces.

maybe color rendering isn't that important compared to seeing what you're
doing.The eye/brain manages to compensate,excpet under low light levels.

Besides,tungsten lighting(2700K or 3200K) isn't all that "color accurate"
itself. That's why color photo film came in tungsten variety,for better
color rendering for that color temp lighting. Even digital cameras have a
setting for color temp(my cheapo Polaroid does),not that people use them
as
they should.

I can't quantify it, but I have a much brighter tubular floursecent
lamp over my head because of the color problems. It seems I need a lot
more light to read with them than an incadescent one.

Geoff.

you need color rendering accuracy to READ?


--
Jim Yanik
Click to expand...

I don't know about 'colour rendering accuracy', Jim, but I too find it
extremely difficult to read under CFLs as opposed to incandescent light
sources. I imagine that it is just some characteristic that my eyes have
developed as I've gotten older, and my sight overall, has declined compared
to when I was young. Perhaps I am in a minority of people that suffer in
this way, but trust me, it is very real. Oddly enough though, I have no
trouble at all reading or working under linear flourescent light,
irrespective of the quoted colour composition (eg warm white, daylight etc)
of said tubes.

Arfa
 
"Adrian Tuddenham" <adrian@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:1k0fkrv.1hb4ln918f80yN%adrian@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid...
Terry Pinnell <terrypingm@DELETEgmail.com> wrote:

(Re-posted from the lower traffic sci.electronics.misc group.)

Does anyone know where I can buy 'normal' filament lamp bulbs in the UK
please? I just cannot get on with the new economy type. My remaining
stock
of 60W and 100W is dwindling rapidly.

http://www.wrightshardware.co.uk/Eaccess.htm

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
Click to expand...
Nice one, Ade. Duly placed in my Favourites folder ... :)

Arfa
 
"M.Joshi" <M.Joshi.7ff7fc8@diybanter.com> wrote in message
news:M.Joshi.7ff7fc8@diybanter.com...
'Terry Pinnell[_3_ Wrote:
;2636067'](Re-posted from the lower traffic sci.electronics.misc
group.)

Does anyone know where I can buy 'normal' filament lamp bulbs in the UK
please? I just cannot get on with the new economy type. My remaining
stock
of 60W and 100W is dwindling rapidly.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Do you mean that your light fittings cannot accomodate the larger
compact fluorescent bulbs?

If so, there are halogen bulbs available in the same form factor as the
old incandescent filament bulbs. These are classed as lower energy than
a standard incandescent and can be purchased from most supermarkets and
DIY stores. See the link below:

http://tinyurl.com/68nocgh

They give you full brightness at switch on unlike compact fluorescents
that take time to warm-up.

--
M.Joshi
Click to expand...
The originals of these were very good - when they used a pearlised outer
envelope. But note the picture in your link shows a clear enveloped capsule
bulb in a clear outer envelope. Unfortunately, this leads to them producing
a 'harsh' light with sharp shadows. Which is precisely why pearlisation of
the envelope of incandescent bulbs, was introduced in the first place. I
have wall lights in my lounge, which use R50 reflectors. They shine up onto
the ceiling, and used to produce a nice diffuse light from the pearl-fronted
bulb envelope. But now, they are only available with a clear-fronted
envelope, and the consequence of this is that the blue glass shade which
used to glow nice and evenly, now has light and dark stripes in it, and the
light that falls on the ceiling, is an image of the filament. I also have a
four lamp fixture here in the computer room, which uses the same bulb type.
The room used to be nice and bright all over. Now, with clear fronted bulbs
fitted, it doesn't matter where you point each individual spot-lamp, the
room is a sea of shadows and pools of light. Gawd, how I hate all this
eco-bollox nonsense ... >:-(

Arfa
 
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ipcma2$21u$1@dont-email.me...
They give you full brightness at switch on, unlike
compact fluorescents that take time to warm-up.

Yes, but...

The better CFLs are quite bright at turn-on -- bright enough that you
don't
feel you bought a defective lamp.
Click to expand...
The operative word being "quite". I thought you said that your Home Despot
types came on quicker than an incandescent. Certainly doesn't sound that way
from that description ... And as far as I'm concerned, any incandescent
replacement technology lamp that does not produce the *full* light output
within a few mS of switch on, or is ambient temperature dependant for its
performance, *is* a defective lamp.

Arfa
 
'Colour balance' is also a fairly meaningless
term. No matter how they mix the phosphors up on them to try to improve
the
CRI, the spectrum never-the-less remains discontinuous in comparison to
that
of an incandescent bulb. This is true no matter where they are sold or
manufactured.
Click to expand...
True. But the subjective balance is excellent. The Home Depot bulbs are good
enough for color photography.


Maybe you can't see anything wrong with them, and they suit your eyes, But
they are no good for me on both counts. I, and many others both here and
over there, *can* see their deficiencies, and don't like them. As indeed
prompted the OP to make his post ...
Click to expand...
I've been involved in photography for over 40 years. If the better CFLs
weren't "good", I wouldn't use them.
 
They give you full brightness at switch on, unlike
compact fluorescents that take time to warm-up.

Yes, but...

The better CFLs are quite bright at turn-on -- bright enough that you
don't feel you bought a defective lamp.

The operative word being "quite". I thought you said that your Home Despot
types came on quicker than an incandescent. Certainly doesn't sound that
way
from that description ... And as far as I'm concerned, any incandescent
replacement technology lamp that does not produce the *full* light output
within a few mS of switch on, or is ambient temperature dependant for its
performance, *is* a defective lamp.
Click to expand...
The Home Depot lamps come on instantly at a level I'd judge to be around
60% -- maybe higher -- of full brightness. Full brightness takes another 30
seconds or so. This is a huge improvement over the bulbs from 15 years ago.
 
"Meat Plow"

** AFAIK- even if you came across a stock it is illegal now for anyone
to sell them to you.

Who is going to arrest you for selling incandescent bulbs? The bulb
police?
Click to expand...
** Here, all that has to happen is someone report the shop keeper to the
relevant Energy Authority.

They would end up being fined for breaching the regulation called " MEPS" =
minimum energy performance standard in relation to selling non compliant
lamps.



..... Phil
 
The Home Depot lamps come on instantly at a level I'd judge to be around
60% -- maybe higher -- of full brightness. Full brightness takes another
30
seconds or so. This is a huge improvement over the bulbs from 15 years
ago.
Click to expand...

On one of our stairways, the ceiling light is two identical CFL's.
They come on instantly, at about 80% of full brightness, enought to
see where the top and bottom steps are, so it is not a safety
hazard. I would guess that they reach full brightness in 10 sec or
so, just about the time I have traversed the staircase. I have them
all over the house except in dimmable fixtures. I haven't been able
to stomach the cost of the dimmable lights, and we can still buy the
full range of incandescent lamps here in the USA.
Click to expand...
The Home Depot lights are X10-dimmable, though marked as not dimmable.

You need to use a wall-switch lamp controller. These do not interrogate the
lamp to see if the switch has been turned on or off, so you don't get
flickering when the lamp is off.
 
On Apr 28, 9:05 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
They give you full brightness at switch on, unlike
compact fluorescents that take time to warm-up.

Yes, but...

The better CFLs are quite bright at turn-on -- bright enough that you
don't feel you bought a defective lamp.
The operative word being "quite". I thought you said that your Home Despot
types came on quicker than an incandescent. Certainly doesn't sound that
way
from that description ... And as far as I'm concerned, any incandescent
replacement technology lamp that does not produce the *full* light output
within a few mS of switch on, or is ambient temperature dependant for its
performance, *is* a defective lamp.

The Home Depot lamps come on instantly at a level I'd judge to be around
60% -- maybe higher -- of full brightness. Full brightness takes another 30
seconds or so. This is a huge improvement over the bulbs from 15 years ago.
Click to expand...
On one of our stairways, the ceiling light is two identical CFL's.
They come on instantly, at about 80% of full brightness, enought to
see where the top and bottome steps are, so it is not a safety
hazard. I woudl guess that they reach full brightness in 10 sec or
so, just about the time I have traversed the staircase. I have them
all over the house except in dimmable fixtures. I haven't been able
to stomach the cost of the dimmable lights, and we can still buy the
full range of incandescent lamps here in the USA.
 
On Apr 28, 9:53 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
"Smitty Two" <prestwh...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:prestwhich-E77428.05553828042011@news.eternal-september.org...

In article <ipbnl5$if...@dont-email.me>,
 "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
British CFLs must be of very poor quality, because you can get
excellent ones in the US. They come instantly -- faster than
incandescent -- and have good color balance.
You buy CFLs that come on faster than an incandescent? Would
like to see a pic of the packaging so I know what to look for at HD.
I'm just a tad skeptical. Do you know the color temp?

I've been using Home Depot's store brand -- EcoSmart -- for several years..
Consumer Reports recently gave them a very high rating.

No color temp or rendering quality is specified. But the balance is on the
warm side. It's acceptable (in my opinion) for non-critical color
photography.
Click to expand...
Probably warm / soft white; any other fluorescent is
horror movie lighting. If you don't have the color temp
spec, hold a lit, known temperature bulb next to it and
see if it looks redder, bluer, or the same.
 
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

Maybe you can't see anything wrong with them, and they suit your eyes, But
they are no good for me on both counts. I, and many others both here and
over there, *can* see their deficiencies, and don't like them. As indeed
prompted the OP to make his post ...
Click to expand...
Arfa: Agreed. My feelings exactly.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK
 
M.Joshi <M.Joshi.7ff7fc8@diybanter.com> wrote:

'Terry Pinnell[_3_ Wrote:
;2636067'](Re-posted from the lower traffic sci.electronics.misc
group.)

Does anyone know where I can buy 'normal' filament lamp bulbs in the UK
please? I just cannot get on with the new economy type. My remaining
stock
of 60W and 100W is dwindling rapidly.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Do you mean that your light fittings cannot accomodate the larger
compact fluorescent bulbs?
Click to expand...
No, my gripes are more basic: I like instant light when I flick a switch
and I like bright light to work and read by. I also resent what seems to
be downright misleading statements by the manufacturers about 'equivalent'
ratings. I've never found one that warrants the claim.

If so, there are halogen bulbs available in the same form factor as the
old incandescent filament bulbs. These are classed as lower energy than
a standard incandescent and can be purchased from most supermarkets and
DIY stores. See the link below:

http://tinyurl.com/68nocgh

They give you full brightness at switch on unlike compact fluorescents
that take time to warm-up.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I'll investigate and try a few, although from what I've read
up-thread it sounds as if I'll still favour the old filament types.

That link gave me a nice picture but can anyone recommend a specific 60W
and 100W UK supplier please?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK
 
On Apr 28, 7:05 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
They give you full brightness at switch on, unlike
compact fluorescents that take time to warm-up.

Yes, but...

The better CFLs are quite bright at turn-on -- bright enough that you
don't feel you bought a defective lamp.
The operative word being "quite". I thought you said that your Home Despot
types came on quicker than an incandescent. Certainly doesn't sound that
way
from that description ... And as far as I'm concerned, any incandescent
replacement technology lamp that does not produce the *full* light output
within a few mS of switch on, or is ambient temperature dependant for its
performance, *is* a defective lamp.

The Home Depot lamps come on instantly at a level I'd judge to be around
60% -- maybe higher -- of full brightness. Full brightness takes another 30
seconds or so. This is a huge improvement over the bulbs from 15 years ago.
Click to expand...
Nothing I've seen on the market today equals the Panasonic CFLs of
years ago, either in time to full output or longevity.
 
"Terry Pinnell"
"Arfa Daily"

Maybe you can't see anything wrong with them, and they suit your eyes, But
they are no good for me on both counts. I, and many others both here and
over there, *can* see their deficiencies, and don't like them. As indeed
prompted the OP to make his post ...

Arfa: Agreed. My feelings exactly.
Click to expand...

** Arfa has admitted to being colour blind.

So you are too - it seems.

Have trouble with 1% resistor codes do we???

12% of all males are colour blind - ie they fail one of the basic tests.

Only 1 or 2% of females are so afflicted - but THEY are the CARRIERS !



..... Phil
 
In article <ipd6e4$ml9$1@dont-email.me>,
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

The Home Depot lamps come on instantly at a level I'd judge to be around
60% -- maybe higher -- of full brightness. Full brightness takes another 30
seconds or so.
Click to expand...
That is some serious backpedaling from your earlier assertions. Thanks
for telling the truth this time around.
 
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