New query for low cost PCB CAD that *works*

[Robert Baer]

Ian Bell wrote:

Andy Peters wrote:

And, I guess my point is that once you're used to better tools --
Protel DXP or PCAD, to name two, and Mentor if you've got VC funding --
you find that the cheap tools don't do what you want them to do, or if
they do, then not as efficiently as more-expensive tools.




I don't think this is entirely true. Some years ago we did an extensive
survey of EDA tools covering schematic capture, simulation and PCB layout.
We were not particularly financially restrained, believing it is worth
investing in the right tools. We look at a very wide range of products from
quite low cost up to Mentor and the like.

In the end after extensive tests we decided an a system at the Mentor
level/cost (I won't mention the name). It was a disaster. It was not at all
efficient. After much soul searching we sent it back and got something much
cheaper that was far more intuitive and cheap to run.

Ian
Name of the program please?

 

[Robert Baer]

Genome wrote:

"John Devereux" <jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> wrote in message
news:87hd9sid9i.fsf@cordelia.devereux.me.uk...

Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> writes:


And that was.....??? Come on, don't leave us in suspense!

--

John Devereux


I have minimal experience of such things but.... Cadstar.

DNA


Hmmmm...Cadstar starts nice on price, but is impossible to get via

the net (i am on POTS).
And... where do i find about the price?????????????????

 

[Ian Bell]

John Devereux wrote:

Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> writes:

Andy Peters wrote:

And, I guess my point is that once you're used to better tools --
Protel DXP or PCAD, to name two, and Mentor if you've got VC funding --
you find that the cheap tools don't do what you want them to do, or if
they do, then not as efficiently as more-expensive tools.



I don't think this is entirely true. Some years ago we did an extensive
survey of EDA tools covering schematic capture, simulation and PCB
layout. We were not particularly financially restrained, believing it is
worth investing in the right tools. We look at a very wide range of
products from quite low cost up to Mentor and the like.

In the end after extensive tests we decided an a system at the Mentor
level/cost (I won't mention the name). It was a disaster. It was not at
all efficient. After much soul searching we sent it back and got
something much cheaper that was far more intuitive and cheap to run.

And that was.....??? Come on, don't leave us in suspense!

This is difficult. This process took place about 10 years ago and since then
I have had a couple of nervous breakdowns (not CAD related ;-) ) and my
memory is quite hazy about specifics. Also I retired from that company 5
years ago. Anyway, I cannot remember, but I will email one of my old
colleagues there and ask him.

Ian

 

[Genome]

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:36Vjf.4249$A23.2472@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Genome wrote:

"John Devereux" <jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> wrote in message
news:87hd9sid9i.fsf@cordelia.devereux.me.uk...

Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> writes:


And that was.....??? Come on, don't leave us in suspense!

--

John Devereux


I have minimal experience of such things but.... Cadstar.

DNA


Hmmmm...Cadstar starts nice on price, but is impossible to get via
the net (i am on POTS).
And... where do i find about the price?????????????????

You might phone up the distributor and ask them to send you a CD.

If you don't want the hassle of being tagged by sales droids then you might
get a local 'mate' with a faster connection to download it...

Failing that, if you want to be really silly give me your address and I'll
snail mail it to you.... I'm in the UK!!!

Mind you, based on past experience I wouldn't recommend it.

DNA

 

[Franck PISSOTTE]

Le 26/11/2005 06:24, Robert Baer a ecrit :

Do not mention Eagle, i wasted a lot of time on POTS to download the
demo version, and again, it was totally useless.
And i was unable to figure out what files wer needed to make the DOS
Orcad even run - so that is out.
PCB123 is out, because the manual is worse than obscene - unreadable
(Acrobat sez it is corrupted and cannot fix it).
So what is left?

i also don't like eagle, kicad, etc

many have strange insert and delete items.
also poor library with missing common components.

the only who survived is <http://www.diptrace.com/>
but i have not really used it at this time.
--
http://www.pascaland.org/ compilateurs, sources et liens langage pascal, delphi
http://www.maitre-asimov.fr.st/ ma collection des oeuvres d'Isaac Asimov
http://franck.pissotte.perso.cegetel.net/perso/avendre.htm vide grenier: vieux matos, logiciels, livres, revues

 

[Robert Baer]

Genome wrote:

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:36Vjf.4249$A23.2472@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Genome wrote:


"John Devereux" <jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> wrote in message
news:87hd9sid9i.fsf@cordelia.devereux.me.uk...


Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> writes:


And that was.....??? Come on, don't leave us in suspense!

--

John Devereux


I have minimal experience of such things but.... Cadstar.

DNA



Hmmmm...Cadstar starts nice on price, but is impossible to get via
the net (i am on POTS).
And... where do i find about the price?????????????????


You might phone up the distributor and ask them to send you a CD.

If you don't want the hassle of being tagged by sales droids then you might
get a local 'mate' with a faster connection to download it...

Failing that, if you want to be really silly give me your address and I'll
snail mail it to you.... I'm in the UK!!!

Mind you, based on past experience I wouldn't recommend it.

DNA


What was it about Cadstar that turned you off?

BTW, i e-mailed them asking how much a CD would cost (amhere in the
US west coast).
Will keep you in mind.
Thanks.

 

[Robert Baer]

Franck PISSOTTE wrote:

Le 26/11/2005 06:24, Robert Baer a ecrit :

Do not mention Eagle, i wasted a lot of time on POTS to download
the demo version, and again, it was totally useless.
And i was unable to figure out what files wer needed to make the
DOS Orcad even run - so that is out.
PCB123 is out, because the manual is worse than obscene -
unreadable (Acrobat sez it is corrupted and cannot fix it).
So what is left?


i also don't like eagle, kicad, etc

many have strange insert and delete items.
also poor library with missing common components.

the only who survived is <http://www.diptrace.com/
but i have not really used it at this time.
I do not mind incomplete libraries; most waste HD space for me.

But the software must support the creation and editing of new part
footprints.

 

[Robert Baer]

Franck PISSOTTE wrote:

Le 26/11/2005 06:24, Robert Baer a ecrit :

Do not mention Eagle, i wasted a lot of time on POTS to download
the demo version, and again, it was totally useless.
And i was unable to figure out what files wer needed to make the
DOS Orcad even run - so that is out.
PCB123 is out, because the manual is worse than obscene -
unreadable (Acrobat sez it is corrupted and cannot fix it).
So what is left?


i also don't like eagle, kicad, etc

many have strange insert and delete items.
also poor library with missing common components.

the only who survived is <http://www.diptrace.com/
but i have not really used it at this time.
Thanks for mentioning Diptrace, will check it out.

 

[Ian Bell]

Franck PISSOTTE wrote:

i also don't like eagle, kicad, etc

many have strange insert and delete items.
also poor library with missing common components.

One thing to note is that with any EDA package you are going to need to
develop your own parts library. There are so many parts out there it is not
possible or desirable for any vendor (or set of users) to provide library
parts for even a substantial fraction of them all. Rather you should see
the provided libraries only as a starting point to illustrate what can be
done and to provide libraries for very generic parts like resistors and
capacitors.

Ian

 

[Ian Bell]

John Devereux wrote:

Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> writes:

Andy Peters wrote:

And, I guess my point is that once you're used to better tools --
Protel DXP or PCAD, to name two, and Mentor if you've got VC funding --
you find that the cheap tools don't do what you want them to do, or if
they do, then not as efficiently as more-expensive tools.



I don't think this is entirely true. Some years ago we did an extensive
survey of EDA tools covering schematic capture, simulation and PCB
layout. We were not particularly financially restrained, believing it is
worth investing in the right tools. We look at a very wide range of
products from quite low cost up to Mentor and the like.

In the end after extensive tests we decided an a system at the Mentor
level/cost (I won't mention the name). It was a disaster. It was not at
all efficient. After much soul searching we sent it back and got
something much cheaper that was far more intuitive and cheap to run.

And that was.....??? Come on, don't leave us in suspense!

OK, I checked with my old colleague. The one we chose but then went off was
Veribest. The one we changed to was Protel.

Ian

 

[John Devereux]

Ian Bell <ruffrecords@yahoo.com> writes:

John Devereux wrote:


And that was.....??? Come on, don't leave us in suspense!


OK, I checked with my old colleague. The one we chose but then went off was
Veribest. The one we changed to was Protel.

Thanks.. was curious.

--

John Devereux

 

[Andy Peters]

Ian Bell wrote:

OK, I checked with my old colleague. The one we chose but then went off was
Veribest. The one we changed to was Protel.

Veribest was later renamed Mentor Expedition PCB.

It's remarkably powerful, but at the cost of intensive training. It's
probably overkill if you're not doing packed boards with 0402 passives,
BGAs on both sides, and 24 layers of impedance-matched traces.

I find Protel DXP and PCAD to both be very workable, although their
notions of libraries and design rules and other major features are very
different. Neither is inexpensive. Electronics Workbench Ultiboard
works, too (I have the 2001 version and haven't "upgraded"), although
its backannotation feature (changes from layout back to schematics) is
broken.

-a

 

[Stuart Brorson]

Franck PISSOTTE <franck.pissotte@alussinan.org> wrote:
: i also don't like eagle, kicad, etc

I'd be curious to hear why you don't like Kicad.

Stuart

 

[Robert Baer]

Stuart Brorson wrote:

Franck PISSOTTE <franck.pissotte@alussinan.org> wrote:
: i also don't like eagle, kicad, etc

I'd be curious to hear why you don't like Kicad.

Stuart
Am still experimenting on WinQcad, but i think i am ready to move on

and see if VuTrax is better.
Good thing that VTX has their 9Mbytes split in 3 pieces, because i
lost dial connection in the muddle of one download.
If that had happened in the muddle of a 9Mbyte download, i would have
quit and asked for a CD.

Seems my "try" list is growing...
Got an e-mail response to DipTrace, and ordered a trial CD from them
($9.95).
Got an e-mail response from CadStar with an un-useable password for
their ZIP file which i cannot get (am on POTS).

 

[Genome]

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:frckf.3997$Hk1.1932@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Seems my "try" list is growing...
Got an e-mail response to DipTrace, and ordered a trial CD from them
($9.95).
Got an e-mail response from CadStar with an un-useable password for
their ZIP file which i cannot get (am on POTS).

Oh..... I see from your headers that you are running Windows 98. Crapstar
needs Windows 2000 or better to work.

DNA

 

[Jim]

Here is a PCB program that is board layout ONLY. I have not used it
very much yet., but it looks to be a pretty easy to use program.

It does not have the complicated library problems that an integrated
Schematic/PCB program has, so it is possible to use the same component
footprint for different parts and not have to create a separate library
entry for each part.



http://www.freepcb.com/


Jim Pennell

--

12:00 Pacific Time Zone
Dec 3 2005

International Time
20:00 UTC
03.12.2005

 

[JeffM]

Good thing that VTX has their 9Mbytes split in 3 pieces,
because i lost dial connection in the muddle of one download.
Robert Baer

Tell me you're not serious.
You don't use a Download Manager
that will allow you to resume a broken download?

 

[Ian Bell]

Andy Peters wrote:

Ian Bell wrote:

OK, I checked with my old colleague. The one we chose but then went off
was Veribest. The one we changed to was Protel.

Veribest was later renamed Mentor Expedition PCB.

It's remarkably powerful, but at the cost of intensive training. It's
probably overkill if you're not doing packed boards with 0402 passives,
BGAs on both sides, and 24 layers of impedance-matched traces.

I find Protel DXP and PCAD to both be very workable, although their
notions of libraries and design rules and other major features are very
different. Neither is inexpensive.

Depends on your definition of expensive, but relative to Veribest, Protel
was cheap.

Ian

 

[Robert Baer]

Genome wrote:

"Robert Baer" <robertbaer@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:frckf.3997$Hk1.1932@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Seems my "try" list is growing...
Got an e-mail response to DipTrace, and ordered a trial CD from them
($9.95).
Got an e-mail response from CadStar with an un-useable password for
their ZIP file which i cannot get (am on POTS).


Oh..... I see from your headers that you are running Windows 98. Crapstar
needs Windows 2000 or better to work.

DNA


I run multiple OSes; Win2K is my OS of choice for "large" and/or

"fancy" programs.
I have been running all of my testing on Win2K.
Thanks for the info!

 

[Robert Baer]

Jim wrote:

Here is a PCB program that is board layout ONLY. I have not used it
very much yet., but it looks to be a pretty easy to use program.

It does not have the complicated library problems that an integrated
Schematic/PCB program has, so it is possible to use the same component
footprint for different parts and not have to create a separate library
entry for each part.



http://www.freepcb.com/


Jim Pennell

Do you mean that only *one* footprint is needed without regard to

which PCB side the SMT is put on?
Or stated differently, can a SMT part be put on either side of a board?
That program may be a welcome "visitor" on my HD!
Thanks; adding it to my list of proggies to test.
**
WOW!
I see that footprints are from Ivex - and i have the Ivex WinBoard,
meaning that (maybe) the footprints inmy created library may work in
FreePCB (!).