Liability & responsibility of electrician?

[Wes]

john <amdinc@intergrafix.net> wrote:

The failure that you had was probably caused by your rigger not using an
airride trailer to move the equipment and something got shaken up. Four
weeks of running proves the voltage was not the problem. Some
disgruntled employee probably pissed in the cabinet.


245 volts is within the normal specs from the utility. AS far as
changing the tap, you should have called in a machine tech to set it up.
An electrician wires only to the safety disconnect switch in the
machine, after that it is your responsibility to call in a machine setup
tech.

Moving a machine unleases the devils inside. We move a machine a hundred feet across the
plant and we often have issues in the near term. Moving introduces physical shock loads
into the electrics, often causes connectors to lose connection, marginal components to
fail, ect. We moved one machine 200 feet and when we powered it up, I had to reload
parameters and pc parameters.

No mention was made of the age of the machine by the OP. Caps dry out and such. It might
have just been the machines time to go. I still think the shop owner is looking for a
free lunch.

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

 

[Jamie]

RoyJ wrote:

Assuming a nominal 240VAC supply, 245V is in no way "not correct" --
it's only about a 2% overvoltage.


And since there is likely no load in shop when the install was taking
place, the 245 would be a higher than normal reading.

But I question the use of "3phase" and "245 volts" in the OP question.
Around here, 245 volts would be perfectly normal for a single phase
circuit, very high for a "standard" 208/3 phase delta.
We still use 208 for ligthing only..

 

[krw]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:40:26 -0700, James Sweet
<jamesrsweet@gmail.com> wrote:

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

Geoff.


Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected
by an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed
electrician to be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but
there is no law against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced
electrical service panels and added circuits for renovations in the
homes of quite a few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but
it was no trouble to get a permit and have the work inspected when it
was complete. Even licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.

That depends entirely on the jurisdiction. Several cities have
tradesmen full employment laws. Some have no inspectors at all.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <slrnh51oi5.hek.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, gsm@mendelson.com wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.

No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
dropped down during times of high usage.

They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.

Yes, I'm afraid you are missing the point. Different locations, even though
attached to the same local grid, may have different supply voltages because
they are receiving those supplies through different transformers.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <h2qs1002sij@news3.newsguy.com>, daestrom <daestrom@twcny.rr.com> wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:29:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces
that
to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the
*same*
4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.
No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
dropped down during times of high usage.

240V isn't "two phase", rather single phase, or otherwise known as
"split phase". ...and it had better not be 127V (maybe twice that).

They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.

They supplied that to the pole. Please read.


What they carry on the pole is immaterial. What they supply to the
customer service entrance is the 'point of sale'.

Very few homes or light commercial service is in the 4kV range in the
US.

Nobody ever said it was.

The service entrance voltage is usually much lower, 240 or 480.

Right, I think we all know that.

In
these cases, the step-down transformer used to convert from distribution
voltage (e.g. 4kV) to the service entrance voltage is the utility's
responsibility.

The utility is responsible for supplying the voltage/frequency at the
service entrance / metering point of sale, not 'the pole'.

Exactly so. Anyone who still doesn't understand how different premises
attached to the same local grid could have service entrance voltages which
are *nominally* the same but *actually* different by five or ten percent,
please raise your hand.

 

[Jamie]

John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 02:58:00 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:


On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, the renowned John E.
incognito@xbjcd.com> wrote:


I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

Thanks.

IMO, 11% high voltage over nominal should not "fry" the controller
board in the first place.




Yes. The controller was overly fragile, or it may have just had a
random failure unrelated to supply voltage. That happens.

If the owner blames the electrician, don't use him again. Sue the
power company for providing 245.


John

You can only do that if the electric company is actually providing that

245V.
It's possible they are providing 480/460 V 3 Phase, and a in house
transformer is being used. If that is the case, then there should be
taps on the primary side to adjust this how ever, this measurement
must be taken with at least 50% load of the shop on it to get a true
reading.

245V is not uncommon and shouldn't cause any issues, actually,
induction motors run better on peppier voltages.


I may sound like I'm getting fired up over this with multiple reply's
I have made, it's nothing against you John how ever, this comes from
events that I have seen take place at work where expensive electronics
just went faulty on normal use and caused a lot of down time and
material loss. The powers to be that don't know anything about the field
start pointing fingers and when they research to see who was the last one
to have their hands in the machine no matter how long ago it was. They
think its a good justification to start blame storming. Some time people
loss their jobs when they did absolutely nothing wrong only to save the
ass of some one else!.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Geoffrey S. Mendelson" wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
Yes, I'm afraid you are missing the point. Different locations, even though
attached to the same local grid, may have different supply voltages because
they are receiving those supplies through different transformers.

I got that. What is wrong is that the person who wrote that originally (was
it you?) used that to explain why a regular house outlet could be 220 volts
on one side of town, and 240 volts on another, both connected to the same
"grid".

There's going to be some variation, but not that much.

Nonsense! Do you believe that the entire town is powered by a single
substation, and that there are no I/R losses? It IS possible that an
older part of a town hasn't been upgraded in a long time, and that the
additional load pulls the line voltage down at the end of a MV feed
while another site is closer to a substation and has higher voltage
available to the building.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:16:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

You can get a license without being in the union.

Excuses do not make you qualified. Especially if the tests you took
were way back in '74.

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:48:41 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:16:00 -0700, Gunner Asch
gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

You can get a license without being in the union.

Of course I can. And did.

Excuses do not make you qualified. Especially if the tests you took
were way back in '74.

Where did you get that date from? Was that the year you were spawned?

I put my C7-C10 on "Hold" with the California BCA in 1998. I think its
expired now..as I recall, it only had a 10 yr life on hold.

Shrug..another weekend at a Contractors Fast Learn and take the test on
Monday. Not a big deal. Except the fees and costs.
Which means Ill simply continue on as a CNC tech who occasionally does
electrical work, until the economy turns around. Of course..I may be
near retirement age by that time...assuming the US doesnt melt down
totally.

Shrug

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Doug Miller wrote:

Yes, I'm afraid you are missing the point. Different locations, even though
attached to the same local grid, may have different supply voltages because
they are receiving those supplies through different transformers.

I got that. What is wrong is that the person who wrote that originally (was
it you?) used that to explain why a regular house outlet could be 220 volts
on one side of town, and 240 volts on another, both connected to the same
"grid".

There's going to be some variation, but not that much.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:40:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

CNC electronics cost about 4-8 times as much to fix as normal
electronics. Shrug..its called :"the going rate" unfortunately.

Motor controllers are 70s technology with MAYBE 90s electronics, if you
are lucky. Even if it is a brand new design, it still isn't worth
anything more than any other industrial application.

$4000 is a bit much for a simple swap out.

Perhaps it is guys like you that have inflated the price over the
years. Overt greed is such a sad thing. It produces jerks that thumb
their noses at the entire industrial world, then cannot figure out why
God handed you a heart condition.

I guess that's what they all deserve for buying Japanese CNC hardware.

Buy American. I'll bet that one of Cincinnati Milacron's controller
boards do not cast that much.

Laugh laugh laugh? You say? I laugh at you, jackass.

I say that I hope that chest gripper of death hits you soon, because
you are a major Asch hole.

 

[Martin Brown]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

1. Did the electrician have any control over the voltage when the system
was rewired?

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do
something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

You missed the point of the original post. The person who did the work was
NOT an electrician, they were a "handyman" hired to do the work.

I didn't miss the point (I think). He was doing the work of an electrician.
And whether or not he was a licensed electrician, he is still morally
responsible for the quality of his work. (Think Hamurabi.)

Only if it can be shown that he did something wrong. I don't know what
US tolerances on voltage are but in the UK 245v on a nominally 240 line
(these days 230v with asymetric tolerancing) wouldn't raise eyebrows.

Since the person never said where they were, it's hard to guess what the
rules are but in (almost?) every jurisdiction that licenses
electricians, a license is needed to do electrical work.

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not
the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

No, there wouldn't be. But if he botched the job, he has to be held
responsible. Doesn't he?

Iff he botched the job. The kit worked for a while after he left. And he
did not claim to be a qualified electrician.

Had he connected the machine chassis to live and electrocuted someone
then it would be a different matter. But even then the employer who got
in a cut price handyman to do a qualified industrial electricians job
would still be guilty of more serious fundamental health and safety
offences for not having the installation inspected by a competent person
before switching it on. What are the US regs like on employer liability?

Of course, one might argue that if the person who hired him /knew/ he wasn't
an electrician, and didn't have the work inspected, then he (the hirer) is
responsible for whatever went wrong.

Exactly. And that is how the insurers would argue it to avoid paying out
a dime if the whole building burnt down as a result of unqualified
electrical work that had not been properly inspected before switch on. I
don't see that the handyman has anything to answer for although he may
still have problems with frivolous litigation from the OP's mate.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:43:44 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

As a CNC tech..I agree with you. Unfortunately however...there are far
far too many Big Name manufactures out there who utilize minimal design
perameters when they make something (very expensive) and then charge out
the ass when it goes tits up.

Yeah, this dopey fuck really knows about quality. NOT!

"Big Name manufacturers"? What easy sleazy Japanesey?

Cite, asswipe? US makers?

Don't jack off at the mouth without backing it up.

What are you pissed about? Single sided boards? What? How fucking
hard can it be to be one that touts hi,mself as a CNC tech if all the
gear is so "cheaply made".

Jeez, when are you going to go tit up?

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 20:00:41 -0400, Wes <clutch@lycos.com> wrote:

Moving introduces physical shock loads
into the electrics,

Jeez. Unless it is full of improperly torqued screw type terminations,
there is NOTHING in a simple shock that would damage ANY CNC "electrics"
as you call them.

They can handle like 40Gs, Just like a hard drive can. They can
certainly handle ten, and unless you dropped the fucking thing, you
cannot possibly shock a PWA to that degree.

"Physical shock loads" is a bunch of crap too. They get subjected to
physical shocks, which get transferred across an assembly, but their is
no remnant "load" or anything else. If there is, the entire damned thing
all the way out to the containment case for it is designed wrong.

You would have to drop a machine from a foot in the air to cause a big
enough shock.

I would be hiring new material handling personnel if they were not able
to move a few tons around gracefully enough to keep from damaging any
electronics contained on the load.

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:11:46 -0700, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever@InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:40:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

CNC electronics cost about 4-8 times as much to fix as normal
electronics. Shrug..its called :"the going rate" unfortunately.

Motor controllers are 70s technology with MAYBE 90s electronics, if you
are lucky. Even if it is a brand new design, it still isn't worth
anything more than any other industrial application.

$4000 is a bit much for a simple swap out.

Yes it is indeed. Take that up with the Japanese btw..and their US
agents.

Perhaps it is guys like you that have inflated the price over the
years. Overt greed is such a sad thing. It produces jerks that thumb
their noses at the entire industrial world, then cannot figure out why
God handed you a heart condition.

My greed? Hummm perhaps you havent any idea that Im one of the cheapest
CNC service techs in So. Cal? Or is it simply that Im A service tech
that busts your chops?
Or are you simply an argumentative Leftwing piece of shit who doesnt
like anyone to the Right of Trotsky? Powa to da Pipples!!!

I guess that's what they all deserve for buying Japanese CNC hardware.

Buy American. I'll bet that one of Cincinnati Milacron's controller
boards do not cast that much.

How much do you care to wager on that? Be specific......I could use a
nice score. But then..it would appear you are a Leftwinger..and you
would lose, whimper and whine, and then steal someone elses money if I
held a gun to your head and made you pay up on your bet.

Laugh laugh laugh? You say? I laugh at you, jackass.

<yawn>

I say that I hope that chest gripper of death hits you soon, because
you are a major Asch hole.

And I hope you have a nice day too.

Gunner, off to LA to finish taking apart a factory


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:15:08 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 16:43:44 -0700, Gunner Asch
gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

As a CNC tech..I agree with you. Unfortunately however...there are far
far too many Big Name manufactures out there who utilize minimal design
perameters when they make something (very expensive) and then charge out
the ass when it goes tits up.

Yeah, this dopey fuck really knows about quality. NOT!

"Big Name manufacturers"? What easy sleazy Japanesey?

Mori Seiki, Sharnoa, Toyoda, Mitsubish and so forth.

Now I know you are simply masturbating while typing..as you dont have a
clue that there are any US manufactures left besides Haas and
Fadal....but hey...enjoy yourself and the rest of us can laugh our asses
off at you.

Cite, asswipe? US makers?

Don't jack off at the mouth without backing it up.

Shush..you must missed a stroke.

What are you pissed about? Single sided boards? What? How fucking
hard can it be to be one that touts hi,mself as a CNC tech if all the
gear is so "cheaply made".

<VBG>

Jeez, when are you going to go tit up?

Long after Ive had the chance to piss on your grave.

Gunner


"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[JosephKK]

On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, John E. <incognito@xbjcd.com>
wrote:

I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

Thanks.

Since i am not sure where you are at, and you did not mention. In the
US if the shop owner knowingly hired an non-licensed electrician to do
the install, 'e would have to eat the loss. Similar in UK and much of
Europe. The selected tap voltages and delivered line should have been
within normal acceptance range for the controller power supply. As
for why the controller fried that is unclear at this time; causation
from the mains connections has yet to be discussed adequately.

 

[JosephKK]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 17:29:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
You're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the voltage supplied
by the utility. The utility doesn't supply 220V or 240V or whatever. They
supply (for example) 4KV. A transformer at the point of service reduces that
to 220V, or 240V, or whatever. Different transformers connected to the *same*
4KV primary voltage could easily produce different secondary voltages.

No, I'm not. When I lived in the US, (PECO) the electric company sold
me 240 volt 2 phase electricity. It was nominaly 127 volts, but often
dropped down during times of high usage.

They did not supply or sell me 4kv volts, or anything else.

Here it's even simpler. Israel electric sells me 230 volts, 50Hz electicity
and except for just before the power going out it has been that way for 12
years. When I had a UPS monitoring the voltage, it was never more than
1 volt +- spec.

Ok, since you insist would anyone out there who gets 4kv from their local
electric company please raise your hand.

Geoff.

Household feeds and commercial/industrial feeds are not the same
thing. I have seen many modest size office buildings take 480 V
feeds. I have worked on systems that take 12 kV feeds. I know of
electric service customers that take 138 kV feeds. None of these i
mentioned are industrial. You could check out what an aluminum
smelter takes as feed with a search engine.

 

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:48:34 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

Hummm perhaps you havent any idea that Im one of the cheapest
CNC service techs in So. Cal?

Bwuahahahahaha! I'll bet your skill set matches your price schedule.
Low and lame.

Hummm? Yeah, you'd probably be better at that.

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:53:52 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

Now I know you are simply masturbating while typing..as you dont have a
clue that there are any US manufactures left besides Haas and
Fadal....but hey...enjoy yourself and the rest of us can laugh our asses
off at you.

You're an idiot. There are about three in Cincinnati alone, including
the biggest in the world, the Cincinnati Milacron.

You are only about as dopey as it gets.