Liability & responsibility of electrician?

[whit3rd]

On Jul 5, 6:26 am, spamb...@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

So what? Equipment designed for 220V should be able to handle 245V. It's not
the electrician's responsibility to open the CNC machine to see what it's set
for.

Absolutely correct. The CNC controller burned up, BUT the line
voltage
is no smoking gun, you have NO reason to believe that was the cause.
Overvoltage would usually result in relatively simple, inexpensive
faults (fuses blowing), or at most a power supply failure (figure
$300 for that kind of part, no WAY it's $4000).

Manufacturer of the controller should be replacing it under warranty.
And, there should be an install procedure to determine tap placement:
who
did the install? Wiring an outlet for the equipment does NOT make
the electrician responsible for install procedure, nor for installed
equipment.

 

[john]

John E. wrote:

I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

Thanks.

The failure that you had was probably caused by your rigger not using an
airride trailer to move the equipment and something got shaken up. Four
weeks of running proves the voltage was not the problem. Some
disgruntled employee probably pissed in the cabinet.


245 volts is within the normal specs from the utility. AS far as
changing the tap, you should have called in a machine tech to set it up.
An electrician wires only to the safety disconnect switch in the
machine, after that it is your responsibility to call in a machine setup
tech.


John

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
<gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

Gunner



"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[StickThatInYourPipeAndSmo]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:44:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
<gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

I guarantee it doesn't match yours.

You seem to think that since you understand the rules of making a
connection that you understand electrical power.

I doubt seriously that you have such a grasp of the industry.

 

[James Sweet]

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, John E. <incognito@xbjcd.com
wrote:

I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

The nominal utility power as supplied is supposed to be 240V. 5
volts over is a touch hot, but not out of the bounds of normal
tolerances - turn everything on in the neighborhood some hot August
afternoon with the AC units cranked, and tell me what the voltage
reads then...

That is not always the case. I'm a little rusty when it comes to 3 phase
distribution, but I've dealt with some things like this in a machine
shop friends of mine own. The voltage depends on the service to the
building. Some shops have 208V and some have 240V, and we've had to
reconfigure machines from time to time that were purchased from other
locations, or run some off buck/boost transformers if they were not
configurable. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can fill in the details.

It's good practice of course to measure the voltage and double check the
configuration of the particular machine prior to applying power.

$4K seems pretty high though, did anyone look into repairing the damaged
board?

 

[James Sweet]

If an unlicensed person does electrical work, the work has to be inspected
by a licensed electrician before the power is turned on. If that was not the
case, there would be no point in licensing electricians, would there?

Geoff.

Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected
by an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed
electrician to be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but
there is no law against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced
electrical service panels and added circuits for renovations in the
homes of quite a few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but
it was no trouble to get a permit and have the work inspected when it
was complete. Even licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.

 

[James Sweet]

Ignoramus20157 wrote:

245 volts is only mildly on the high side and should not cause the
symptom described.

i

As well as sometimes things just do fail. If only I had a dollar for
every time someone with zero technical knowledge told me "this failed
because so and so did this or that". Just because something broke
shortly after work was done, does not automatically mean that the work
done is what caused it to break.

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:26:07 -0700, StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt
<Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:44:18 -0700, Gunner Asch
gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:


We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

I guarantee it doesn't match yours.

You seem to think that since you understand the rules of making a
connection that you understand electrical power.

Odd...so Im simply a wire hooker-upper? And my CNC machine repair is
simply making connections? No understanding of the trade?

I doubt seriously that you have such a grasp of the industry.

Why...because Im not a Union Member?

Chuckle...I charge MORE than most Union Members do. And I get the work.

I suggest you review what you wrote..and why you wrote it.

<VBG>

Gunner




"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[James Sweet]

Jon Danniken wrote:

William Sommerwerck wrote:
My drier sees 250VAC. Low voltage stuff in this house gets 125VAC.
Everything is working just fine.
sniff> <sniff> Is that burning cotton I smell?

Drier has a temperature limiter, so although the slightly higher voltage
results in a slightly quicker "turn on" time for the elements, they still
are shut off at the same temperature regardless of incoming voltage.

Jon

I rented a house for a while that had unusually high line voltage. It
varied from around 122V to 125V depending on the time of day. If it was
much higher than that, I'd be concerned, but anything from 115V to 125V
is pretty normal.

A friend of mine over in the UK is near the end of a long run from the
transformer that powers his street. His voltage varies considerably,
from as low as 220V to nearly 250V.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Gunner Asch wrote:

Fortunately..most of my gear runs fine on this, with the exception of
the VFD on my Gorton mill. At times, it shows an over voltage alarm and
refuses to run until the voltage drops back down to under 246.

Ive called this to the attention of the local PG&E wanks..and they
simply shrug, send someone out to measure the voltage, confirm that
indeed its 252, blither a bit and then leave.

Before there were UPS's there were constant voltage transformers, the most
popular made by Sola. UPS's put out really crap AC, and are designed to
work with a switching power supply as a load.

Sola transformers were used with all sorts of things, there may be one that
fits your needs. I used them with computers that had linear power supplies,
but I think they will work with motors, it's worth checking out.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

 

[Ignoramus20157]

On 2009-07-05, John E <incognito@xbjcd.com> wrote:

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?

I have 245 volts in my garage. Everything works great.

245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

There is no causal relationship, as far as I can tell, between
perfectly normal voltage provided in your shop, and your CNC machine
frying after 3 more weeks.

I have not yet seen a more inane discussion thread.

i

 

[Jamie]

John E. wrote:

I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

Thanks.
Sorry, but that little upward swing didn't cause the issue..

Sounds to me like some one couldn't properly determine the real
problem with the control board and opted to simply replace the whole
thing or, the person doing the work on the repairs caused more damage
them self's and are covering their tracks.

I'm sorry, but 4 weeks into operation and it worked fine all that
time, I think you should look else where for the problem or just simply
eat the coast of a broken down CNC machine.

My guess is the moving process may have caused some sensitive
electronics on the board to get ajar if the CNC was possibly dropped
or whacked hard enough to cause a fracture crack in a solder joint that
finally showed it's oats.

Of course, that is just my opinion. You can take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Gunner Asch wrote:

We must ask you at this point...what is your definition of an
electrician.

Someone who has a license, (and/or) is a member of the union, passed a
test that entitles him to call himself an electrician.

But not someone with no formal training, licensure or certification.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

 

[langwadt@fonz.dk]

On 5 Jul., 08:58, Spehro Pefhany <speffS...@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>
wrote:

On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, the renowned John E.



incogn...@xbjcd.com> wrote:
I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

Thanks.

IMO, 11% high voltage over nominal should not "fry" the controller
board in the first place.  

a loose neutral can result in all kinds of strange voltages depending
on the load on the
phases, so the 11% might just be what the voltage was when it was
measured, not what
it was when the controller was fried

-Lasse

 

[john]

Ignoramus20157 wrote:

On 2009-07-05, John E <incognito@xbjcd.com> wrote:

2. Is it normal for electricians to measure the voltage, and "do something"
about it if it's not correct (if only reporting the problem to the
businessman)?

This is the basic question I'm asking. Is it common and regular practice to
inform the owner of a voltage as high as 245? And to suggest that he have
factory personnel come and look at each machine and examine PS taps and such?
And if he had hired a licensed electrician would the electrician likely had
informed the owner of the voltage difference?


I have 245 volts in my garage. Everything works great.

245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

There is no causal relationship, as far as I can tell, between
perfectly normal voltage provided in your shop, and your CNC machine
frying after 3 more weeks.

I have not yet seen a more inane discussion thread.

Dont worry there will be more. Its a great form of mindless intertainment.

Any CNC control or machine that cannot take a 10% overvoltage is a
piece of junk to begin with. Power supply technology in the last 20
years can easily design units that will handle these variations. The
power company likes to hold the voltage on the supply lines as high as
possible to reduce the losses per kw metered and delivered.
I have a number of CNC machines running on 515 volts measured at the
machine internal disconnect and never had a control failure from
overvoltage. Undervoltage is what damages equipment because the
currents run higher for the same work done and the power components get
hotter from the higher current.


John

 

[Tim Williams]

"Ignoramus20157" <ignoramus20157@NOSPAM.20157.invalid> wrote in message
news:Y4edneEdUJQSsszXnZ2dnUVZ_r5i4p2d@giganews.com...

245 volts is a perfectly normal voltage. It corresponds to 122.5 volts
AC from a regular outlet.

Oddly enough, that's exactly what I've measured (give or take a few tenths)
in the MSOE power lab (which is equipped with 208V 3 phase), and very nearly
the same at my own bench at home.

Tim

--
Deep Friar: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:33:48 -0700, James Sweet <jamesrsweet@gmail.com>
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 23:40:18 -0700, John E. <incognito@xbjcd.com
wrote:

I have been asked to offer an opinion in a sensitive situation.

A machinist moved his shop across town and required some rewiring (3-phase
outlets, conduit, etc.) in order to locate some machines where he wanted
them.

He hires a guy who's not a pro (and later discovers is not insured) but has
done shop wiring before and had a good attitude and track record. The guy
does good work. No complaints about the quality of his work.

Owner throws the switch, all works fine.

The story continues 4 weeks later when the very expensive CNC fries its
controller PCB to the tune of $4000.

Turns out the voltage in the shop was upward of 245 and the taps in the CNC's
power supply were set for 220.

What is the legal and moral responsibility of each party?

What will not be helpful are replies about the character or intelligence of
either of the players or their actions.

The nominal utility power as supplied is supposed to be 240V. 5
volts over is a touch hot, but not out of the bounds of normal
tolerances - turn everything on in the neighborhood some hot August
afternoon with the AC units cranked, and tell me what the voltage
reads then...




That is not always the case. I'm a little rusty when it comes to 3 phase
distribution, but I've dealt with some things like this in a machine
shop friends of mine own. The voltage depends on the service to the
building. Some shops have 208V and some have 240V, and we've had to
reconfigure machines from time to time that were purchased from other
locations, or run some off buck/boost transformers if they were not
configurable. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can fill in the details.

It's good practice of course to measure the voltage and double check the
configuration of the particular machine prior to applying power.

$4K seems pretty high though, did anyone look into repairing the damaged
board?

CNC electronics cost about 4-8 times as much to fix as normal
electronics. Shrug..its called :"the going rate" unfortunately.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:10:07 -0400, john <amdinc@intergrafix.net> wrote:

I have not yet seen a more inane discussion thread.


Dont worry there will be more. Its a great form of mindless intertainment.

Any CNC control or machine that cannot take a 10% overvoltage is a
piece of junk to begin with.

As a CNC tech..I agree with you. Unfortunately however...there are far
far too many Big Name manufactures out there who utilize minimal design
perameters when they make something (very expensive) and then charge out
the ass when it goes tits up.

Gunner

"Lenin called them "useful idiots," those people living in
liberal democracies who by giving moral and material support
to a totalitarian ideology in effect were braiding the rope that
would hang them. Why people who enjoyed freedom and prosperity worked
passionately to destroy both is a fascinating question, one still with us
today. Now the useful idiots can be found in the chorus of appeasement,
reflexive anti-Americanism, and sentimental idealism trying to inhibit
the necessary responses to another freedom-hating ideology, radical Islam"

Bruce C. Thornton, a professor of Classics at American University of Cal State Fresno

 

[Rich.]

"Gunner Asch" <gunner@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:r29255hd4o21ml5ml69f68ikbpk7i96sk0@4ax.com...

On Sun, 5 Jul 2009 21:04:04 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:


So then what am I? I passed the tests, at one time held a (California)
C7 and C10 license, ( as responsible managing employee for a large
company who before me had NO liceneses), have worked for the past 12 yrs
as a machine shop electrician (with no failures to date), CNC repair
tech and so forth.

However..Ive refused to belong to any union since 1974, when my 6 week
stint as a UAW worker left me cold about unions.

Am I just a "handyman" because I dont belong to a union <spit>?

My business cards indicate that I do electrical (non licensed) as well
as CNC and Machine Tool Repair.

So am I simply a "handyman"?

Inquiring minds really want to know.

Gunner

Yes, you're a glorified handyman...happy? ;-)

Yes you have the knowledge and experience, but as long as you do not hold a
valid license, you can call yourself an electrician, but you cannot call
yourself a licensed electrician. As an unlicensed electrician you cannot
LEGALLY perform ANY electrical work outside of your own single family
residence. BTW, union or not makes no difference, it's state law we're
talking about.

 

[Rich.]

"James Sweet" <jamesrsweet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:h2rabn$d7g$1@news.eternal-september.org...

Depends on where you are. Here in the US, the work has to be inspected by
an inspector, not an electrician. You have to be a licensed electrician to
be hired by most electrical contracting companies, but there is no law
against unlicensed people electrical work. I've replaced electrical
service panels and added circuits for renovations in the homes of quite a
few friends and family members, I'm not licensed, but it was no trouble to
get a permit and have the work inspected when it was complete. Even
licensed electricians have to get their work inspected.

You're fooling yourself. You cannot legally do any electrical work at the
homes of your friends or family. If there is ever an electrical fire at any
building that you did electrical work in...you can kiss your life goodbye.
You can be arrested, tried in a criminal court, and sentenced to prison,
plus sued for everything you own in a civil court. This can happen to you
because it is a crime in any state (as far as I know) for you to do this
work. Liability insurance is not even an option for you because you have to
be licensed to get the insurance in the first place.