Level 1 Charger Plug...

[Jeff Urban]

>** Wot a stupid fucking troll.

They are out there buddy. As much aas you may hate me I do not hatree you. In fact your harsh shit and all that reminds me of my family.

Speaking of which, my Uncle and cousin gave it a try. He was a tech specialist at Big Blue, my cousin was definitely into it, an fact built his own stereo. So they had no gas, all electric house.

They bought these huge ass rectifiers to put on the furnace to try to magnetise the poles in the meter.

Now that I think of it, there is no way to know if it worked. They would have to have two meters and see if they read different.

Now this Kill-a-watt thing, it goes against the laws of physics, I can see some things but not that. I even told you all about those generators, it took me a year to figure out how they work.

Now just a box ? Well in audiophile land there is a box that is supposed to make almost any stereo sound better. Testimonials are enough to be considerable. But I figured it out. They use coils. The first coil takes the load off the amp at high frequencies, that makes it perform better. There is probably a little but of attenuation but it is tolerable I guess.

It\'s not for me, blow your speakers with rock and roll. (that\'s a song, look it up) I want the most direct connection I can get. On my good speaker I got 12 gu. wire.

But the thing is that I understand what this thing does and it is quite novel, but I do not want one.

The best amp I got is totaled. I should send a picture, it had been in a fire and flood, the regulator board it broken in like four places. But I got it working and though it is not my most powerful amp it sounds the best. Rated 65 a channel it is built like amps with 200 a channel. Pioneer SX-850. The only things I heard better were Marantz and Kenwood, and very few Kenwoods. I want sound so sharp it cuts like a knife.

So anyway, this power meter thing. There is not much cheating them. in the US the way it is set up you can flip your meter upside down and it will run backwards. But if they catch you it is a felony.

Electricity is not the cheapest thing in the world, that is why we cook with gas. Electric cooking sucks anyway.

So people might think that for an electric stove maybe some inductance. Nope. Sure that will lower the power consumption but power is what make the heat. Less power less heat.

The point is nothing is free. Those generators, a million bucks, do you pay that much in electric bills in seven years ?

Enough, this tangent is too much...

 

[Jeff Urban]

>** Wot a stupid fucking troll.

They are out there buddy. As much aas you may hate me I do not hatree you. In fact your harsh shit and all that reminds me of my family.

Speaking of which, my Uncle and cousin gave it a try. He was a tech specialist at Big Blue, my cousin was definitely into it, an fact built his own stereo. So they had no gas, all electric house.

They bought these huge ass rectifiers to put on the furnace to try to magnetise the poles in the meter.

Now that I think of it, there is no way to know if it worked. They would have to have two meters and see if they read different.

Now this Kill-a-watt thing, it goes against the laws of physics, I can see some things but not that. I even told you all about those generators, it took me a year to figure out how they work.

Now just a box ? Well in audiophile land there is a box that is supposed to make almost any stereo sound better. Testimonials are enough to be considerable. But I figured it out. They use coils. The first coil takes the load off the amp at high frequencies, that makes it perform better. There is probably a little but of attenuation but it is tolerable I guess.

It\'s not for me, blow your speakers with rock and roll. (that\'s a song, look it up) I want the most direct connection I can get. On my good speaker I got 12 gu. wire.

But the thing is that I understand what this thing does and it is quite novel, but I do not want one.

The best amp I got is totaled. I should send a picture, it had been in a fire and flood, the regulator board it broken in like four places. But I got it working and though it is not my most powerful amp it sounds the best. Rated 65 a channel it is built like amps with 200 a channel. Pioneer SX-850. The only things I heard better were Marantz and Kenwood, and very few Kenwoods. I want sound so sharp it cuts like a knife.

So anyway, this power meter thing. There is not much cheating them. in the US the way it is set up you can flip your meter upside down and it will run backwards. But if they catch you it is a felony.

Electricity is not the cheapest thing in the world, that is why we cook with gas. Electric cooking sucks anyway.

So people might think that for an electric stove maybe some inductance. Nope. Sure that will lower the power consumption but power is what make the heat. Less power less heat.

The point is nothing is free. Those generators, a million bucks, do you pay that much in electric bills in seven years ?

Enough, this tangent is too much...

 

[server]

Thank you for this conversation and the hints. I have a Quantum drive that had sat for a few years and was giving me the 8+10 flashing. Giving it a tap got it to spin and allowed the BIOS to detect it. (although I think the drive is totally unreadable now - it had problems before but now will not even boot)

 

[server]

Thank you for this conversation and the hints. I have a Quantum drive that had sat for a few years and was giving me the 8+10 flashing. Giving it a tap got it to spin and allowed the BIOS to detect it. (although I think the drive is totally unreadable now - it had problems before but now will not even boot)

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

You two really deserve each other! But, please take it elsewhere. Otherwise, to paraphrase Beatrice Campbell, you *will* scare the horses.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

You two really deserve each other! But, please take it elsewhere. Otherwise, to paraphrase Beatrice Campbell, you *will* scare the horses.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Jeff Urban]

>But, please take it elsewhere

When did you buy the place ?

 

[Jeff Urban]

>But, please take it elsewhere

When did you buy the place ?

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, December 2, 2011 at 5:26:36 AM UTC-8, Windmill wrote:

If I can\'t find an explanation of the flash code, I\'ll try the rapping
technique.

If it\'s not spinning, you want to rap it on a corner so that the drive is
twisted in the circumferential sense, relative to the platters.. The
most productive such rap is done a half-second after applying power
(it\'s useful to have a switchable power supply for this).

Once you get it up and spinning, there\'s a good prospect for it
to STAY spinning as long as you don\'t remove power, and
fair-to-middling chance of it starting again (the motor
is likely to care exactly in what pole-position phase it stops).

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, December 2, 2011 at 5:26:36 AM UTC-8, Windmill wrote:

If I can\'t find an explanation of the flash code, I\'ll try the rapping
technique.

If it\'s not spinning, you want to rap it on a corner so that the drive is
twisted in the circumferential sense, relative to the platters.. The
most productive such rap is done a half-second after applying power
(it\'s useful to have a switchable power supply for this).

Once you get it up and spinning, there\'s a good prospect for it
to STAY spinning as long as you don\'t remove power, and
fair-to-middling chance of it starting again (the motor
is likely to care exactly in what pole-position phase it stops).

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

------------------
Phil Allison

It simply lowers you RMS current draw.

Can you explain I^2 R for me ?


** That must seem like a very clever Q to you.

But I am not biting.

Just sit back and take some notes then.


** LOL

It sounds like you\'re forgetting
some stuff.

** Wot a stupid fucking troll.

Piss off.

slow down there buddy, you might trip a circuit breaker there.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Jeff Urban <jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:

** Wot a stupid fucking troll.

They are out there buddy. As much aas you may hate me I do not hatree you. In fact your harsh shit and all that reminds me of my family.

Speaking of which, my Uncle and cousin gave it a try. He was a tech specialist at Big Blue, my cousin was definitely into it, an fact built his own stereo. So they had no gas, all electric house.

They bought these huge ass rectifiers to put on the furnace to try to magnetise the poles in the meter.

Now that I think of it, there is no way to know if it worked. They would have to have two meters and see if they read different.

Now this Kill-a-watt thing, it goes against the laws of physics, I can
see some things but not that. I even told you all about those
generators, it took me a year to figure out how they work.

Why? It\'s like a $30 device and a pretty darn neat one for that price too.
They seem to have nailed it the first time too. I\'m not seeing new
revisions of the device. There\'s somebody real clever over at P3.

Now just a box ? Well in audiophile land there is a box that is supposed to make almost any stereo sound better. Testimonials are enough to be considerable. But I figured it out. They use coils. The first coil takes the load off the amp at high frequencies, that makes it perform better. There is probably a little but of attenuation but it is tolerable I guess.

It\'s not for me, blow your speakers with rock and roll. (that\'s a song, look it up) I want the most direct connection I can get. On my good speaker I got 12 gu. wire.

But the thing is that I understand what this thing does and it is quite novel, but I do not want one.

The best amp I got is totaled. I should send a picture, it had been in a fire and flood, the regulator board it broken in like four places. But I got it working and though it is not my most powerful amp it sounds the best. Rated 65 a channel it is built like amps with 200 a channel. Pioneer SX-850. The only things I heard better were Marantz and Kenwood, and very few Kenwoods. I want sound so sharp it cuts like a knife.

So anyway, this power meter thing. There is not much cheating them. in
the US the way it is set up you can flip your meter upside down and it
will run backwards. But if they catch you it is a felony.

I\'ve seen plenty of meters installed backwards. It doesn\'t confused the
power company in Chicago at all. They can do the math, and will even leave
it and put the seal back on the collar of the glass too.

Electricity is not the cheapest thing in the world, that is why we cook
with gas. Electric cooking sucks anyway.

So people might think that for an electric stove maybe some inductance.
Nope. Sure that will lower the power consumption but power is what make
the heat. Less power less heat.

The point is nothing is free. Those generators, a million bucks, do you
pay that much in electric bills in seven years ?

Enough, this tangent is too much...

 

[bud--]

On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:

On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


  **  Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.

Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)

As far as have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line

1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.
3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.

---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:

On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


?? **?? Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.

Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.

Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.

The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)


As far as have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line

1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.

The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.

3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.

Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.

---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.

I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.

Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.

I don\'t dispute gimmicky boxes will probably not save you any money, but
to pretend that resistive losses don\'t exist doesn\'t jive at all with
reality and why branch circuits in your home even have a current rating in
the first place. Think about it. I assure you it\'s not the stronger
magnetic fields from an overloaded circuit with a coin stuffed behind a
fuse or an overloaded skinny extension cord that that cause your house to
catch on fire.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Has anyone here ever actually looked into what utility-grade \"capacitor banks\" do, why they are installed and where they are installed?

It is pretty simple, and pretty basic. No, they do not exist to \'cheat the meter\'. Yes, they do save money, no, they do not save power. How those things happen together is where the \'magic\' resides. But it ain\'t nohow magic.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[bud--]

On 6/25/2020 11:37 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:

bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


?? **?? Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.

Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.

Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.

The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)


As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line

1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.

The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.



3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.

Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.

I thought it was rather obvious.

You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.

There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).

I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.

Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.

---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.

I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.

Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.

The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
\"ampacity\".

And as someone wrote, for a \"continuous\" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.

And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws \"too many\"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.

I don\'t dispute gimmicky boxes will probably not save you any money, but
to pretend that resistive losses don\'t exist doesn\'t jive at all with
reality and why branch circuits in your home even have a current rating in
the first place. Think about it. I assure you it\'s not the stronger
magnetic fields from an overloaded circuit with a coin stuffed behind a
fuse or an overloaded skinny extension cord that that cause your house to
catch on fire.

 

[bud--]

On 6/25/2020 11:37 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:

bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


?? **?? Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.

Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.

Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.

The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)


As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line

1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.

The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.



3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.

Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.

I thought it was rather obvious.

You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.

There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).

I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.

Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.

---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.

I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.

Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.

The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
\"ampacity\".

And as someone wrote, for a \"continuous\" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.

And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws \"too many\"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.

I don\'t dispute gimmicky boxes will probably not save you any money, but
to pretend that resistive losses don\'t exist doesn\'t jive at all with
reality and why branch circuits in your home even have a current rating in
the first place. Think about it. I assure you it\'s not the stronger
magnetic fields from an overloaded circuit with a coin stuffed behind a
fuse or an overloaded skinny extension cord that that cause your house to
catch on fire.

 

[bud--]

On 6/26/2020 5:07 AM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

Has anyone here ever actually looked into what utility-grade \"capacitor banks\" do, why they are installed and where they are installed?

It is pretty simple, and pretty basic. No, they do not exist to \'cheat the meter\'. Yes, they do save money, no, they do not save power. How those things happen together is where the \'magic\' resides. But it ain\'t nohow magic.

Assume this is about locations, primarily industrial, where the utility
meters kVARh. PF correction can save a lot of money (pay for itself)
because the utility has a $ignificant \"penalty\" for kVAR \'use\'. If the
plant corrects power factor the utility doesn\'t have to (I see racks of
utility PF correction capacitors often). The penalty encourages \"magic\".
If utilities don\'t correct PF they have added losses from wire
resistance (#3 above) and generator capacity is reduced.

If a motor is switched off and on the capacitors can be on the motor
side of the motor control.
I have seen rather large banks of capacitors in large plants. That
works when the plant runs full time. I expect they would be
automatically or manually disconnected if the plant was to shut down.

The most interesting installation used large open frame motors running
compressors, which could be unloaded. The motors were synchronous. If
over-excited they act as capacitors. Control equipment matched the
correction with what was needed.

 

[bud--]

On 6/26/2020 5:07 AM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

Has anyone here ever actually looked into what utility-grade \"capacitor banks\" do, why they are installed and where they are installed?

It is pretty simple, and pretty basic. No, they do not exist to \'cheat the meter\'. Yes, they do save money, no, they do not save power. How those things happen together is where the \'magic\' resides. But it ain\'t nohow magic.

Assume this is about locations, primarily industrial, where the utility
meters kVARh. PF correction can save a lot of money (pay for itself)
because the utility has a $ignificant \"penalty\" for kVAR \'use\'. If the
plant corrects power factor the utility doesn\'t have to (I see racks of
utility PF correction capacitors often). The penalty encourages \"magic\".
If utilities don\'t correct PF they have added losses from wire
resistance (#3 above) and generator capacity is reduced.

If a motor is switched off and on the capacitors can be on the motor
side of the motor control.
I have seen rather large banks of capacitors in large plants. That
works when the plant runs full time. I expect they would be
automatically or manually disconnected if the plant was to shut down.

The most interesting installation used large open frame motors running
compressors, which could be unloaded. The motors were synchronous. If
over-excited they act as capacitors. Control equipment matched the
correction with what was needed.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:

On 6/25/2020 11:37 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


?? **?? Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.



Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.

Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.

The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)


As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line

1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.

The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.



3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.

Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.


I thought it was rather obvious.

You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.

There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).

I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.

Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.

---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.

I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.

Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.

The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
\"ampacity\".

And as someone wrote, for a \"continuous\" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.

And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws \"too many\"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.

If installed correctly it can help. You have to install it by the load.

Same concept as switchable power factgor correction banks installed at a
factory. It has to be near the load to reduce the distace you\'re pulling
empty current, lowering line voltage and regulation and wasting a bit of
power.