P
pfjw@aol.com
Guest
13 years later......
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R
Ron D.
Guest
In the Dremel\'s I\'ve taken apart there are few components because it\'s triac speed control (light dimmer).
probably close to this: https://www.electroschematics.com/motor-speed-regulator-with-triac/
A jumper between the two terminals other than the one going to T2 is all you have to do.
if there is a number on the part. You jump MT1 to MT2.
e.g. https://www.nteinc.com/specs/5600to5699/pdf/nte5621_27.pdf
All pin outs may not tbe the same.
probably close to this: https://www.electroschematics.com/motor-speed-regulator-with-triac/
A jumper between the two terminals other than the one going to T2 is all you have to do.
if there is a number on the part. You jump MT1 to MT2.
e.g. https://www.nteinc.com/specs/5600to5699/pdf/nte5621_27.pdf
All pin outs may not tbe the same.
R
Ron D.
Guest
In the Dremel\'s I\'ve taken apart there are few components because it\'s triac speed control (light dimmer).
probably close to this: https://www.electroschematics.com/motor-speed-regulator-with-triac/
A jumper between the two terminals other than the one going to T2 is all you have to do.
if there is a number on the part. You jump MT1 to MT2.
e.g. https://www.nteinc.com/specs/5600to5699/pdf/nte5621_27.pdf
All pin outs may not tbe the same.
probably close to this: https://www.electroschematics.com/motor-speed-regulator-with-triac/
A jumper between the two terminals other than the one going to T2 is all you have to do.
if there is a number on the part. You jump MT1 to MT2.
e.g. https://www.nteinc.com/specs/5600to5699/pdf/nte5621_27.pdf
All pin outs may not tbe the same.
B
Brian Moore
Guest
FWIW..... I needed to refurbish the printer rollers on a Dell P1500 this weekend. I read everything I could find about what products to use or not use. I have a chemistry background so that helped. At any rate, I settled on the following simple cocktail for restoring the rollers.... It worked fantastic:
1 teaspoon DOT brake fluid
1 teaspoon naphtha (old fashioned lighter fluid)
1cc acetone
First I scrubbed the rollers lightly with soapy water and a lint-free towel..
I mixed the above in a Dixie cup. Then I rubbed this cocktail on each roller with a Q-tip, and wiped it off with the lint-free towel within 30 seconds. Then I repeated the application, wiped clean again. I was amazed. The printer works again, it was throwing the \"jam\" sensor every time, because the paper wasn\'t advancing.
1 teaspoon DOT brake fluid
1 teaspoon naphtha (old fashioned lighter fluid)
1cc acetone
First I scrubbed the rollers lightly with soapy water and a lint-free towel..
I mixed the above in a Dixie cup. Then I rubbed this cocktail on each roller with a Q-tip, and wiped it off with the lint-free towel within 30 seconds. Then I repeated the application, wiped clean again. I was amazed. The printer works again, it was throwing the \"jam\" sensor every time, because the paper wasn\'t advancing.
J
John-Del
Guest
On Saturday, July 18, 2020 at 12:12:35 PM UTC-4, Brian Moore wrote:
I\'ve used similar concoctions but they are all temporary. The rollers get hard and slick because the rubber is deteriorating with exposure to air (and sometimes light).
Back when phono idlers became tougher to get, I used to machine down the outer hardened layer of rubber with a cutting stone. This exposed \"better\" material to the friction surfaces but it was still not the perfect solution - although it lasted much longer than any liquid did.
Hopefully, your solution will outlast the printer.
FWIW..... I needed to refurbish the printer rollers on a Dell P1500 this weekend. I read everything I could find about what products to use or not use. I have a chemistry background so that helped. At any rate, I settled on the following simple cocktail for restoring the rollers.... It worked fantastic:
1 teaspoon DOT brake fluid
1 teaspoon naphtha (old fashioned lighter fluid)
1cc acetone
First I scrubbed the rollers lightly with soapy water and a lint-free towel.
I mixed the above in a Dixie cup. Then I rubbed this cocktail on each roller with a Q-tip, and wiped it off with the lint-free towel within 30 seconds. Then I repeated the application, wiped clean again. I was amazed. The printer works again, it was throwing the \"jam\" sensor every time, because the paper wasn\'t advancing.
I\'ve used similar concoctions but they are all temporary. The rollers get hard and slick because the rubber is deteriorating with exposure to air (and sometimes light).
Back when phono idlers became tougher to get, I used to machine down the outer hardened layer of rubber with a cutting stone. This exposed \"better\" material to the friction surfaces but it was still not the perfect solution - although it lasted much longer than any liquid did.
Hopefully, your solution will outlast the printer.
B
bud--
Guest
On 6/28/2020 8:53 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
large \'penalty\' charged by utilities for VAR \'use\' when the utility
meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction
caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.
It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels
or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.
And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors.
Considerations include
motor size
percent of time motor runs
circuit length
motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging
Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the
service.
It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors.
I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
The major reason PF correction capacitors are installed is to avoid thebud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/25/2020 11:37 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:
=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:
Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
Sigh...
Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.
Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.
which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.
?? **?? Yep.
Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
** Oops, no it don\'t.
Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.
Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.
The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.
It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)
As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line
1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.
The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.
3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.
Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.
I thought it was rather obvious.
You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.
There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).
I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.
Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.
---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.
I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.
Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.
The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
\"ampacity\".
And as someone wrote, for a \"continuous\" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.
And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws \"too many\"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.
If installed correctly it can help. You have to install it by the load.
Same concept as switchable power factgor correction banks installed at a
factory. It has to be near the load to reduce the distace you\'re pulling
empty current, lowering line voltage and regulation and wasting a bit of
power.
large \'penalty\' charged by utilities for VAR \'use\' when the utility
meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction
caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.
It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels
or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.
And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors.
Considerations include
motor size
percent of time motor runs
circuit length
motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging
Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the
service.
It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors.
I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
B
bud--
Guest
On 6/28/2020 8:53 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
large \'penalty\' charged by utilities for VAR \'use\' when the utility
meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction
caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.
It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels
or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.
And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors.
Considerations include
motor size
percent of time motor runs
circuit length
motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging
Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the
service.
It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors.
I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
The major reason PF correction capacitors are installed is to avoid thebud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/25/2020 11:37 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:
=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:
Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
Sigh...
Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.
Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.
which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.
?? **?? Yep.
Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
** Oops, no it don\'t.
Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.
Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.
The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.
It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)
As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line
1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.
The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.
3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.
Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.
I thought it was rather obvious.
You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.
There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).
I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.
Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.
---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.
I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.
Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.
The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
\"ampacity\".
And as someone wrote, for a \"continuous\" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.
And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws \"too many\"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.
If installed correctly it can help. You have to install it by the load.
Same concept as switchable power factgor correction banks installed at a
factory. It has to be near the load to reduce the distace you\'re pulling
empty current, lowering line voltage and regulation and wasting a bit of
power.
large \'penalty\' charged by utilities for VAR \'use\' when the utility
meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction
caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.
It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels
or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.
And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors.
Considerations include
motor size
percent of time motor runs
circuit length
motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging
Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the
service.
It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors.
I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
C
Cydrome Leader
Guest
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
Agreed. One larger switchable bank at a plant will be cheaper and cover
more possibilities than trying to connect capacitor banks at all motors.
> I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
Yup. The largest motor I can think of in a house might be the compressor
in a split airconditioning system. Those always have dedicated runs of
power so they\'re more like an industrial schenario where wiring is run as
needed, dedicated and properly sized to the intended load in the first
place.
On 6/28/2020 8:53 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/25/2020 11:37 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:
=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:
Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
Sigh...
Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.
Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.
which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.
?? **?? Yep.
Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
** Oops, no it don\'t.
Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.
Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.
The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.
It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)
As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line
1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.
The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.
3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.
Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.
I thought it was rather obvious.
You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.
There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).
I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.
Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.
---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.
I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.
Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.
The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
\"ampacity\".
And as someone wrote, for a \"continuous\" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.
And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws \"too many\"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.
If installed correctly it can help. You have to install it by the load.
Same concept as switchable power factgor correction banks installed at a
factory. It has to be near the load to reduce the distace you\'re pulling
empty current, lowering line voltage and regulation and wasting a bit of
power.
The major reason PF correction capacitors are installed is to avoid the
large \'penalty\' charged by utilities for VAR \'use\' when the utility
meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction
caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.
It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels
or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.
And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors.
Considerations include
motor size
percent of time motor runs
circuit length
motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging
Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the
service.
It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors.
Agreed. One larger switchable bank at a plant will be cheaper and cover
more possibilities than trying to connect capacitor banks at all motors.
> I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
Yup. The largest motor I can think of in a house might be the compressor
in a split airconditioning system. Those always have dedicated runs of
power so they\'re more like an industrial schenario where wiring is run as
needed, dedicated and properly sized to the intended load in the first
place.
C
Cydrome Leader
Guest
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
Agreed. One larger switchable bank at a plant will be cheaper and cover
more possibilities than trying to connect capacitor banks at all motors.
> I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
Yup. The largest motor I can think of in a house might be the compressor
in a split airconditioning system. Those always have dedicated runs of
power so they\'re more like an industrial schenario where wiring is run as
needed, dedicated and properly sized to the intended load in the first
place.
On 6/28/2020 8:53 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/25/2020 11:37 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
On 6/17/2020 7:10 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:
Cydrome Leader wrote:
=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:
Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.
Sigh...
Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.
Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.
which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.
You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.
?? **?? Yep.
Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,
** Oops, no it don\'t.
Scam marketers are likely to say that the lower current directly lowers
the Watts, which is a scam.
Didn\'t know ohm\'s law just doens\'t apply when marketers are involved.
Sorry, but it does.
The lies are the amount of electricty and money you will save.
It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)
As far as I have heard, the scam boxes are just a capacitor permanently
connected across the line
1 - I suspect the capacitors do not change the power factor much, thus
do not change the circuit current much - negligible change = negligible
saving (see 2 for the advantage of lower current)
2 - As in the post above, power factor correction can lower the current,
and thus wasted power in wire resistance, but only in the wiring from
the meter to the scam box. Boxes are likely to be at the service -
negligible length = negligible saving.
The junk ones just plug into an outlet, they don\'t hard wire into your
sevice panel. Granted, the outlet you pick could be far from your
inductive loads.
3 - Capacitors are likely permanently connected. When the
motor/inductive load is off the capacitor still conducts a current. That
produces wasted power (metered Watts) in the wire resistance.
Wait earlier you said that lower current, lowering watts - \"which is a
scam\", but now increased current somehow increases power. I\'m so lost
here.
I thought it was rather obvious.
You put a capacitor across a circuit. There is a current through the
capacitor. That current does not cause a Wh meter to change.
There is circuit wire resistance in series with the capacitor. That
cause a voltage drop across the resistance. That voltage drop must
necessarily be in phase with the current. That causes power dissipation
(heat) which will register on a Wh meter. This will be true for scam
boxes that leave a capacitor connected (likely all of them).
I think it us unlikely the scam boxes produce significant changes in #1,
#2, #3.
Selling points I have seen have been on the misconception/lie in my
first comment yesterday.
---------------------
I think it is in another post - in industries with lots of big motors
the utility is likely to meter the inductive part of the load in a
kVARh meter (volt-amps reactive). There is a significant VAR \'penalty\'
charged by the utility. That makes power factor correction a
real-good-idea. (And the correction is a lot more sophisticated than the
scam boxes.) But, as has been said, there is no power factor penalty for
residential.
I don\'t have any bullshit power factor devices plugged into my outlets
24/7 with the expectation of getting money back from the power company
every month.
Power factor correction is real, and plain old induction motors are
terribly inefficient, and you\'d benefit from properly correcting the
\"empty\" current they draw. A sub 60% efficient 1/3 hp frame 56 motor isn\'t
unheard of, and even a high efficiency ones will draw more than 4 amps at
120 volts. You might only save 10 watts of resistive losess, but might
also be able to not trip a breaker or blow a fuse if other items are on
that branch.
The limiting factor on overcurrent protection is likely the starting
current of the motor, which can be about 6x the running amps. For motor
circuits, because of the starting current, the source overcurrent
protection under the NEC can be significantly higher than the wire
\"ampacity\".
And as someone wrote, for a \"continuous\" load (over 3 hours) you are
generally limited to using 80% of the overcurrent device rating.
And imagine you have a motor on a branch circuit that draws \"too many\"
amps. You connect a capacitor on the branch circuit at the panel that
*significantly* corrects the power factor. That does not change the
current on the rest of the circuit to the motor, which has not been
corrected.
If installed correctly it can help. You have to install it by the load.
Same concept as switchable power factgor correction banks installed at a
factory. It has to be near the load to reduce the distace you\'re pulling
empty current, lowering line voltage and regulation and wasting a bit of
power.
The major reason PF correction capacitors are installed is to avoid the
large \'penalty\' charged by utilities for VAR \'use\' when the utility
meters for kVARh. That correction can be done by putting PF correction
caps at the service. This is cheaper to install than at motors.
It may or may not be cost effective to put correction at some subpanels
or motor control centers. That has some added, but smaller, advantages.
And it may or may not be cost effective to put correction at motors.
Considerations include
motor size
percent of time motor runs
circuit length
motor use - very-short off time, plugging, jogging
Industrial correction could be split between at some motors and at the
service.
It is not cost effective to put all correction at motors.
Agreed. One larger switchable bank at a plant will be cheaper and cover
more possibilities than trying to connect capacitor banks at all motors.
> I doubt it is cost effective to put correction at motors in a house.
Yup. The largest motor I can think of in a house might be the compressor
in a split airconditioning system. Those always have dedicated runs of
power so they\'re more like an industrial schenario where wiring is run as
needed, dedicated and properly sized to the intended load in the first
place.
C
Cydrome Leader
Guest
Jeff Urban <jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:
We had a mini-mill in the north side of Chicago until recently. They\'d do
the melts at night for 1) better electric prices and 2) it was the only
time of day their capacity needs could be met, even in an otherwise
industrial area. I never saw the electric meters, but the powerlines
feeding the complex had lots of instrument transfomers installed, way more
than you\'d usually see. Even after the building were completely
demolished there was a mountain of power factor capacitor piled up in the
gated off, otherwise vacant lot.
Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity per
month with complex devices.
Alright fuck it. There is one way.
You \"tap\" the power for milliseconds but at a very high peak current
which is maybe the same wattage but you have done it so fast the meter
misses some of it.
That is the ONLY way to really beat it and I am not sure it works on
non-mechanical meters.
You take your 300 amp pulse to feed your shit, but not every cycle.
Maybe every tenth cycle. You have heard of capacitors. You cannot use
6Hz 300 amp pulses very well so you have to go to DC and let it just
charge at that cycle. The more you use the more you save. However you
have to generate your own sine wave. It depends on you doing that
efficiently. The only way I see is with some serious class D amps, and
even those are not going to be small ass Icepowers.
And then for all the money you spend doing that you save 10% tops. So if
your bill is $200 a month you save twenty bucks. /so buy all this shit
for a few hundred if you\'re lucky, I think you are lucky to get it all
for a grand, and then your time.
These are not on Amazon. Building your own, fine. But if you do that, to
be able to design and build it twenty bucks an hour is the bare minimum.
So you want to put over a grand into saving twenty bucks a month. and
then the gizmo might break and there is only one person who can fix it.
I am pretty sure I mentioned my Uncle and cousin experimenting with
this. But then we have this other dude. All he did was lay a wire across
his property and picked up the elecromagnetism from the high tension
wires.
Now this of course became a transformer of sorts. But he got something
out of it. In fact the more current he puled the more he helped the
efficiency of the power company lines.
They busted him. Any time you gain any utility not paying the rate is a
felony. It doesn\'t matter if you are helping them, it is the gain. The
gain is what will cost you a few years and your gun and voting rights.
By any method.
Now get this, if they can bust you for picking up a magnetic field they put up on your property then they can bust you for a crystal radio. Powered by radio waves, you got them for free, you going to the joint. Look it up - theft of utilities.
Like those things that give you even years of electricity (for an
average house, not a foundry) for a million bucks. It simply is not
worth it.
We had a mini-mill in the north side of Chicago until recently. They\'d do
the melts at night for 1) better electric prices and 2) it was the only
time of day their capacity needs could be met, even in an otherwise
industrial area. I never saw the electric meters, but the powerlines
feeding the complex had lots of instrument transfomers installed, way more
than you\'d usually see. Even after the building were completely
demolished there was a mountain of power factor capacitor piled up in the
gated off, otherwise vacant lot.
I can rewire a meter box so it only reads half what you use. It would
take years for them to find out. I could make it read nothing, but that
is stupid, they know better.
And that is reflected in watt-hour meter design. They thought of every
possible way to cheat and addressed it. What would you do ?
There are a few things they did not think of but I am not going into
that.
Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity per
month with complex devices.
C
Cydrome Leader
Guest
Jeff Urban <jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:
We had a mini-mill in the north side of Chicago until recently. They\'d do
the melts at night for 1) better electric prices and 2) it was the only
time of day their capacity needs could be met, even in an otherwise
industrial area. I never saw the electric meters, but the powerlines
feeding the complex had lots of instrument transfomers installed, way more
than you\'d usually see. Even after the building were completely
demolished there was a mountain of power factor capacitor piled up in the
gated off, otherwise vacant lot.
Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity per
month with complex devices.
Alright fuck it. There is one way.
You \"tap\" the power for milliseconds but at a very high peak current
which is maybe the same wattage but you have done it so fast the meter
misses some of it.
That is the ONLY way to really beat it and I am not sure it works on
non-mechanical meters.
You take your 300 amp pulse to feed your shit, but not every cycle.
Maybe every tenth cycle. You have heard of capacitors. You cannot use
6Hz 300 amp pulses very well so you have to go to DC and let it just
charge at that cycle. The more you use the more you save. However you
have to generate your own sine wave. It depends on you doing that
efficiently. The only way I see is with some serious class D amps, and
even those are not going to be small ass Icepowers.
And then for all the money you spend doing that you save 10% tops. So if
your bill is $200 a month you save twenty bucks. /so buy all this shit
for a few hundred if you\'re lucky, I think you are lucky to get it all
for a grand, and then your time.
These are not on Amazon. Building your own, fine. But if you do that, to
be able to design and build it twenty bucks an hour is the bare minimum.
So you want to put over a grand into saving twenty bucks a month. and
then the gizmo might break and there is only one person who can fix it.
I am pretty sure I mentioned my Uncle and cousin experimenting with
this. But then we have this other dude. All he did was lay a wire across
his property and picked up the elecromagnetism from the high tension
wires.
Now this of course became a transformer of sorts. But he got something
out of it. In fact the more current he puled the more he helped the
efficiency of the power company lines.
They busted him. Any time you gain any utility not paying the rate is a
felony. It doesn\'t matter if you are helping them, it is the gain. The
gain is what will cost you a few years and your gun and voting rights.
By any method.
Now get this, if they can bust you for picking up a magnetic field they put up on your property then they can bust you for a crystal radio. Powered by radio waves, you got them for free, you going to the joint. Look it up - theft of utilities.
Like those things that give you even years of electricity (for an
average house, not a foundry) for a million bucks. It simply is not
worth it.
We had a mini-mill in the north side of Chicago until recently. They\'d do
the melts at night for 1) better electric prices and 2) it was the only
time of day their capacity needs could be met, even in an otherwise
industrial area. I never saw the electric meters, but the powerlines
feeding the complex had lots of instrument transfomers installed, way more
than you\'d usually see. Even after the building were completely
demolished there was a mountain of power factor capacitor piled up in the
gated off, otherwise vacant lot.
I can rewire a meter box so it only reads half what you use. It would
take years for them to find out. I could make it read nothing, but that
is stupid, they know better.
And that is reflected in watt-hour meter design. They thought of every
possible way to cheat and addressed it. What would you do ?
There are a few things they did not think of but I am not going into
that.
Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity per
month with complex devices.
J
Jeff Urban
Guest
>Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.
Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?
If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works. Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn\'t.
What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an audio amp.
Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a hell of alot more.
So my question just became - Why bother ?
Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?
If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works. Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn\'t.
What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an audio amp.
Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a hell of alot more.
So my question just became - Why bother ?
J
Jeff Urban
Guest
>Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.
Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?
If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works. Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn\'t.
What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an audio amp.
Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a hell of alot more.
So my question just became - Why bother ?
Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?
If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works. Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn\'t.
What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an audio amp.
Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a hell of alot more.
So my question just became - Why bother ?
B
bud--
Guest
On 7/5/2020 2:56 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
Not obvious to me it would fool a mechanical meter. The current pulse
would put a mechanical impulse into the disc and it would likely move on
the impulse for longer than the pulse.
Back in the good old days the physics lab had a \"ballistic
galvanometer\". It had a mirror instead of a pointer, and reflected a
light beam on a scale. You could put a current pulse into the meter and
it would continue to swing for long after the pulse.
The utility would be very displeased by the pulse scheme because they
have to supply the pulse, which is much higher than the average power use.
Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.
What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass.
Not obvious to me it would fool a mechanical meter. The current pulse
would put a mechanical impulse into the disc and it would likely move on
the impulse for longer than the pulse.
Back in the good old days the physics lab had a \"ballistic
galvanometer\". It had a mirror instead of a pointer, and reflected a
light beam on a scale. You could put a current pulse into the meter and
it would continue to swing for long after the pulse.
The utility would be very displeased by the pulse scheme because they
have to supply the pulse, which is much higher than the average power use.
B
bud--
Guest
On 7/5/2020 2:56 AM, Jeff Urban wrote:
Not obvious to me it would fool a mechanical meter. The current pulse
would put a mechanical impulse into the disc and it would likely move on
the impulse for longer than the pulse.
Back in the good old days the physics lab had a \"ballistic
galvanometer\". It had a mirror instead of a pointer, and reflected a
light beam on a scale. You could put a current pulse into the meter and
it would continue to swing for long after the pulse.
The utility would be very displeased by the pulse scheme because they
have to supply the pulse, which is much higher than the average power use.
Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.
What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old mechanical meter because of what is known as mass.
Not obvious to me it would fool a mechanical meter. The current pulse
would put a mechanical impulse into the disc and it would likely move on
the impulse for longer than the pulse.
Back in the good old days the physics lab had a \"ballistic
galvanometer\". It had a mirror instead of a pointer, and reflected a
light beam on a scale. You could put a current pulse into the meter and
it would continue to swing for long after the pulse.
The utility would be very displeased by the pulse scheme because they
have to supply the pulse, which is much higher than the average power use.
C
Cydrome Leader
Guest
Jeff Urban <jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:
Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter. Magnemotive
forces don\'t go away just because you\'re quick.
Clipping a digital meter sounds more possibly, unless your spikes confused
them and they over charge you.
I had my electric bills go down after the old spinning meter was smashed
by a meteor, and the company installed a digital meter. I suspect the drag
magnets fade over time and the meters speed up.
Was just asking for a friend. I don\'t actually care much about my electric
bill. If I want lights on, or to plug something in, I\'m just going to do
it. I won\'t be falling down the stairs because the lights were on a motion
detector. I really hate stuff like that.
Let\'s hear. I want to know all about how to steal $2 of electricity >per month with complex devices.
Sounds like those generators. For about a million bucks they will feed your house electricity for about seven years. Divide it up, do you pay $11K a month for electricity ?
If they got a device for like two grand that saves you two bucks a month
it takes years for it to be cost effective. And that is if it works.
Power companies put millions to make sure it doesn\'t.
What I said about pulsing very fast and hard, that can fool an old
mechanical meter because of what is known as mass. With totally
electronic ones you have to pull the juice so fast it clips, like an
audio amp.
Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter. Magnemotive
forces don\'t go away just because you\'re quick.
Clipping a digital meter sounds more possibly, unless your spikes confused
them and they over charge you.
I had my electric bills go down after the old spinning meter was smashed
by a meteor, and the company installed a digital meter. I suspect the drag
magnets fade over time and the meters speed up.
Still, electricity is relatively cheap. Try making your own. Get a
Generac, now look at its fuel consumption and you will see it costs a
hell of alot more.
So my question just became - Why bother ?
Was just asking for a friend. I don\'t actually care much about my electric
bill. If I want lights on, or to plug something in, I\'m just going to do
it. I won\'t be falling down the stairs because the lights were on a motion
detector. I really hate stuff like that.
S
server
Guest
On June 16, 2020 4:24PM, pf...@aol.com wrote:
-- https://goingsolar.com/windows-double-as-solar-panels/#:~:text=Solar%20windows%20convert%20sunlight%20that,spectrum%20coming%20through%20the%20glass.
You responded to a 22 year old post.
Solar panels can be your own home windows and you can dump the power back to the service. So the need to be sneaky may not be there, now.
-- https://goingsolar.com/windows-double-as-solar-panels/#:~:text=Solar%20windows%20convert%20sunlight%20that,spectrum%20coming%20through%20the%20glass.
P
pfjw@aol.com
Guest
Solar windows - enough, per panel, to charge two (2) cell phones each day.
- If they face south.
- If the day is sunny.
- At a cost of +/- US$182 per square foot, US$2,000 per square meter.
Phone Charge: 6 watts (max) per hour.
Assume 4 hours to charge a phone.
24 watts per charge.
48 (use 50) for two phones.
In twenty (20) days, those windows will generate 1KWH of power, at the national average of US$0.13/KWH.
Really?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Making the payback: A very brief 843 years.
- If they face south.
- If the day is sunny.
- At a cost of +/- US$182 per square foot, US$2,000 per square meter.
Phone Charge: 6 watts (max) per hour.
Assume 4 hours to charge a phone.
24 watts per charge.
48 (use 50) for two phones.
In twenty (20) days, those windows will generate 1KWH of power, at the national average of US$0.13/KWH.
Really?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Making the payback: A very brief 843 years.
J
Jeff Urban
Guest
Not following how pulses will not affect a mechanical meter
Because of inertia. The current moves a wheel in there if you hit it fast enough it cannot accelerate fast enough. It is up to you to store the energy though, how you gonna do that ? I know of no battery that can take a 500 amp charge for a few milliseconds and then deliver it out as needed. Then depending on what kind of panel you got you might have to get ahead of the main breaker to even do that. Then you might blow their fuses outside.
It is not easy to steal power, in fact any effective means is usually more trouble than it\'s worth.
M
Michael Terrell
Guest
Ask Marge Schott. She was in trouble after CG&E discovered the current transformers had been shunted at Riverfront Stadium.