Level 1 Charger Plug...

[pfjw@aol.com]

Pretty much got it right, yes.

Amplifiers are very seldom the weak point, unless driven to clipping on a regular basis.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Pretty much got it right, yes.

Amplifiers are very seldom the weak point, unless driven to clipping on a regular basis.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Fox\'s Mercantile]

Facebook is flooded with ads for \"The electric companies
hate these\"
Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.

Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
+R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
(on the load side) is high enough.

But, capacitors big enough to accomplish that are the size
of a 5 gallon Jerry can.


--
\"I am a river to my people.\"
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Fox\'s Mercantile]

Facebook is flooded with ads for \"The electric companies
hate these\"
Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.

Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
+R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
(on the load side) is high enough.

But, capacitors big enough to accomplish that are the size
of a 5 gallon Jerry can.


--
\"I am a river to my people.\"
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Phil Allison]

Fox\'s Mercantile bullshitted:

========================

Facebook is flooded with ads for \"The electric companies
hate these\"
Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.

Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
+R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
(on the load side) is high enough.

** That is not true.

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

But, capacitors big enough to accomplish that are the size
of a 5 gallon Jerry can.

** Bollocks.

A 150uF cap draws 11 amps rms from a 240V 50Hz outlet.

A polypropylene, 250VAC rated cap of that value would be the size of a large coffee jar.

Problem with such cap on the AC supply is you cannot switch it on - the massive inrush surge will trip a 16 amp thermal magnetic breaker.


...... Phil

 

[Fox\'s Mercantile]

On 6/16/20 5:38 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.


--
\"I am a river to my people.\"
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Fox\'s Mercantile]

On 6/16/20 5:38 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
> Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.


--
\"I am a river to my people.\"
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Chris Jones]

On 17/06/2020 08:38, Phil Allison wrote:

Fox\'s Mercantile bullshitted:

========================

Facebook is flooded with ads for \"The electric companies
hate these\"
Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.

Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
+R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
(on the load side) is high enough.


** That is not true.

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

True, however some recent meters use Rogowski coils, where the analogue
to digital converter receives a signal that is proportional to the rate
of change of current, which is then integrated in digital computation to
get the current waveform. The thing the meter designers did not guard
against is very sharp steps or spikes in current, leading to a very high
output from the Rogowski coil, that can rail the ADC, which then gives a
wrong current waveform.

There was a paper a few years ago where some dutch researchers showed a
load consisting of some compact fluorescent lamps connected to a dimmer
could produce power readings many times higher than the true power
consumption, when measured with some meters based on Rogowski coils.

If I recall correctly, the electricity retailers dismissed it as an
unrepresentative situation unlikely to occur in real use and did not
want to do anything about it.

In my opinion the researchers made a simple error. They should have
found a different load that drew a spike of current at a different phase
relative to the mains voltage waveform, to rail the ADC at a different
time, such that the power reading would be artificially low, or even
negative. If they had demonstrated artificially low rather than
artificially high readings in their paper, then the meters would have
been redesigned and replaced as a matter of urgency.

Whilst a contrived load that causes the meter reading to be artificially
low (by drawing a spike of current and railing the current ADC at the
right time) may be illegal to sell, if nothing else due to it failing
conducted EMC regulations, I suspect that there may still be a
significant informal market for such a device.

 

[Chris Jones]

On 17/06/2020 08:38, Phil Allison wrote:

Fox\'s Mercantile bullshitted:

========================

Facebook is flooded with ads for \"The electric companies
hate these\"
Goodies about the size of a pack of cigarettes that are
supposed to lower your bill by at least 50%.
Just plug them into any convenient wall outlet.

Watt meters are simple, they expect the load to look like
+R(ohms) +J(inductance). If they see +R -J they will slow
down or run backwards if the capacitance across the line
(on the load side) is high enough.


** That is not true.

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

True, however some recent meters use Rogowski coils, where the analogue
to digital converter receives a signal that is proportional to the rate
of change of current, which is then integrated in digital computation to
get the current waveform. The thing the meter designers did not guard
against is very sharp steps or spikes in current, leading to a very high
output from the Rogowski coil, that can rail the ADC, which then gives a
wrong current waveform.

There was a paper a few years ago where some dutch researchers showed a
load consisting of some compact fluorescent lamps connected to a dimmer
could produce power readings many times higher than the true power
consumption, when measured with some meters based on Rogowski coils.

If I recall correctly, the electricity retailers dismissed it as an
unrepresentative situation unlikely to occur in real use and did not
want to do anything about it.

In my opinion the researchers made a simple error. They should have
found a different load that drew a spike of current at a different phase
relative to the mains voltage waveform, to rail the ADC at a different
time, such that the power reading would be artificially low, or even
negative. If they had demonstrated artificially low rather than
artificially high readings in their paper, then the meters would have
been redesigned and replaced as a matter of urgency.

Whilst a contrived load that causes the meter reading to be artificially
low (by drawing a spike of current and railing the current ADC at the
right time) may be illegal to sell, if nothing else due to it failing
conducted EMC regulations, I suspect that there may still be a
significant informal market for such a device.

 

[Phil Allison]

Fox\'s Mercantile is such a boring fuckwit wrote:

-----------------------------------------
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

** It makes it less and less.

A purely capacitive (or inductive) load produces NO movement of the disk.

Please FOAD dickwad.

 

[Phil Allison]

Fox\'s Mercantile is such a boring fuckwit wrote:

-----------------------------------------
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

** It makes it less and less.

A purely capacitive (or inductive) load produces NO movement of the disk.

Please FOAD dickwad.

 

[server]

Mine is 35+years old.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Fox\'s Mercantile <jdangus@att.net> wrote:

On 6/16/20 5:38 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption, but this is
not going to be a concern in a house, unless you leave terribly
inefficient things like 1/3rd horepower induction motors running all day
long.

 

[Phil Allison]

Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================

Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


** Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,

** Oops, no it don\'t.

It simply lowers you RMS current draw.

VERY worthwhile in situations were you are running out of amp capacity for the installed circuits.


...... Phil

 

[Chris Jones]

On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


** Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)

 

[Tim R]

I checked some household appliances (lamps, tv, laptops) with one of those Kill-a-Watt meters some time back.

They register both watts and power factor. Power factor was often very low, in the .6 range. CFLs and LEDs were both very low.

Does that affect the accuracy of the watt reading?

If I understand correctly, I pay for actual watts, but wire capacity has to include the extra. Presumably code requires sufficient headroom.

Kill-a-Watt meters are designed badly, unless they\'ve improved them recently. With bifocals you can only read them in one orientation and often that is not how you plug them in.

 

[Chris Jones]

On 17/06/2020 19:56, Phil Allison wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


** Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.

It could lower the wasted power in the resistance of the cable between
the meter and the reactive load. This is unlikely to be significant
unless you have a very very long cable from the meter to the reactive
load. (It will also lower the wasted power in the cables before the
meter but since you don\'t pay for that, there is no financial incentive
for the consumer to fix it.)

 

[Fox\'s Mercantile]

On 6/17/20 9:45 AM, Tim R wrote:

Kill-a-Watt meters are designed badly, unless they\'ve
improved them recently. With bifocals you can only read
them in one orientation and often that is not how you
plug them in.

I hate to be Captain Obvious here, but that\'s what short
extension cords are for.


--
\"I am a river to my people.\"
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Fox\'s Mercantile]

On 6/17/20 9:45 AM, Tim R wrote:

Kill-a-Watt meters are designed badly, unless they\'ve
improved them recently. With bifocals you can only read
them in one orientation and often that is not how you
plug them in.

I hate to be Captain Obvious here, but that\'s what short
extension cords are for.


--
\"I am a river to my people.\"
Jeff-1.0
WA6FWi
http:foxsmercantile.com

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:



=====================
Fox\'s Mercantile
Phil Allison wrote:

Wattmeters measure power regardless of phase angle.

Sigh...

Watt meters work because of a 90 degree phase shift between
the voltage coil and the current coil.

Changing the amount of phase shift between them changes the
speed at which the dial rotates.

which is a measure of the actual power being consumed, as designed.

You are not going to fool a spinning disc power meter unless you tamper
with it.


** Yep.

Power factor correction might lower your power consumption,


** Oops, no it don\'t.

It simply lowers you RMS current draw.

Can you explain I^2 R for me ?

VERY worthwhile in situations were you are running out of amp capacity for the installed circuits.


..... Phil