Is 4kHz too high a beeper frequency?

[Phil Allison]

jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:

=========================

That depends entirely on the details. A piezo chirper has very poor coupling to the air. The acoustic or mechanical coupling can be done in a way that makes the coupling more efficient giving more volume for the same power.

I have dismantled a few smoke alarms. The piezo disc has a resonant
cavity behind it and a small horn in front, so they have made an effort
to maximise efficiency for a small range of frequencies.

** The electro acoustic efficiency of a piezo transducer is very high providing the diameter is about 1/4 or more the wavelength.

FYI: 4kHz has a wavelength of 84mm so 1/4 = 21mm.

They present a capacitive load of a few nF to the source with a small resistive component.



..... Phil

 

[Ricky C]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 1:46:09 AM UTC-4, jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, 22 April 2020 02:13:34 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:

Also, larger diaphragm or transducer usually means more mass so higher
power. This is one reason that sub-woofes require more power than
the mid and high satellite speakers.


That depends entirely on the details. A piezo chirper has very poor coupling to the air. The acoustic or mechanical coupling can be done in a way that makes the coupling more efficient giving more volume for the same power.

I have dismantled a few smoke alarms. The piezo disc has a resonant
cavity behind it and a small horn in front, so they have made an effort
to maximise efficiency for a small range of frequencies.

John

Don't tell me. Tell Win. He is the one building the device.

I was talking about coupling the piezo to a larger mass and surface to lower the resonant frequency of a small piezo and at the same time increase the efficiency. I wasn't criticizing any product.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Wednesday, 22 April 2020 02:13:34 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:

Also, larger diaphragm or transducer usually means more mass so higher
power. This is one reason that sub-woofes require more power than
the mid and high satellite speakers.


That depends entirely on the details. A piezo chirper has very poor coupling to the air. The acoustic or mechanical coupling can be done in a way that makes the coupling more efficient giving more volume for the same power.

I have dismantled a few smoke alarms. The piezo disc has a resonant
cavity behind it and a small horn in front, so they have made an effort
to maximise efficiency for a small range of frequencies.

John

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 22/4/20 4:09 pm, Phil Allison wrote:

jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
That depends entirely on the details. A piezo chirper has very poor coupling to the air. The acoustic or mechanical coupling can be done in a way that makes the coupling more efficient giving more volume for the same power.

I have dismantled a few smoke alarms. The piezo disc has a resonant
cavity behind it and a small horn in front, so they have made an effort
to maximise efficiency for a small range of frequencies.


** The electro acoustic efficiency of a piezo transducer is very high providing the diameter is about 1/4 or more the wavelength.

That's really good to know, thanks Phil.

I guess it also matters what the primary resonance of the transducer is
though. I'm thinking of the little brass discs used in birthday cards.
They must have a fairly high Q, but at what frequency? I should run one
on the signal generator and look at the impedance curve...

Clifford Heath

 

[boB]

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:20:23 -0700 (PDT), Ricky C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 1:46:09 AM UTC-4, jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 April 2020 02:13:34 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:

Also, larger diaphragm or transducer usually means more mass so higher
power. This is one reason that sub-woofes require more power than
the mid and high satellite speakers.


That depends entirely on the details. A piezo chirper has very poor coupling to the air. The acoustic or mechanical coupling can be done in a way that makes the coupling more efficient giving more volume for the same power.

I have dismantled a few smoke alarms. The piezo disc has a resonant
cavity behind it and a small horn in front, so they have made an effort
to maximise efficiency for a small range of frequencies.

John

Don't tell me. Tell Win. He is the one building the device.

I was talking about coupling the piezo to a larger mass and surface to lower the resonant frequency of a small piezo and at the same time increase the efficiency. I wasn't criticizing any product.

Either way, I think Win's original 4kHz is probably OK and the ear is
sensitive there unless the person is deaf at that frequency which
could definitly be the case for a lot of people. I'm luck so far but
getting older and lower HF response fer sure.

 

[Ricky C]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 4:35:46 AM UTC-4, boB wrote:

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:20:23 -0700 (PDT), Ricky C
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 1:46:09 AM UTC-4, jrwal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 April 2020 02:13:34 UTC+1, Ricky C wrote:

Also, larger diaphragm or transducer usually means more mass so higher
power. This is one reason that sub-woofes require more power than
the mid and high satellite speakers.


That depends entirely on the details. A piezo chirper has very poor coupling to the air. The acoustic or mechanical coupling can be done in a way that makes the coupling more efficient giving more volume for the same power.

I have dismantled a few smoke alarms. The piezo disc has a resonant
cavity behind it and a small horn in front, so they have made an effort
to maximise efficiency for a small range of frequencies.

John

Don't tell me. Tell Win. He is the one building the device.

I was talking about coupling the piezo to a larger mass and surface to lower the resonant frequency of a small piezo and at the same time increase the efficiency. I wasn't criticizing any product.


Either way, I think Win's original 4kHz is probably OK and the ear is
sensitive there unless the person is deaf at that frequency which
could definitly be the case for a lot of people. I'm luck so far but
getting older and lower HF response fer sure.

I think that's the problem. It is much more likely for people to have problems hearing 4 kHz than 2 or 1 kHz. We have people reporting here that they have trouble hearing 4 kHz. If you can't hear 2 kHz well you are definitely in the "hard of hearing" department as it will impact your ability to hear speech, particularly female voices, and so likely have hearing aides. For hearing loss at 4 kHz not so much.

I remember being able to hear the 15 kHz flyback transformers in TV sets. That was a long time ago.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Pimpom]

On 4/22/2020 9:06 PM, Ricky C wrote:

I remember being able to hear the 15 kHz flyback transformers in TV sets. That was a long time ago.

Same here. Towards the end of my days repairing TVs, I had to
rely on an assistant to keep a listening watch for the hiss.

I think I might have damaged my hearing while working on diesel
generators for the power agency in the '80s. I didn't work on the
engines but the associated electricals and electronics had to be
tested with a running engine.

I can still detect sound in the low to mid frequencies as well as
a much younger person. It's loss of the harmonics that sometimes
makes me fail to catch what someone is saying.

 

[Phil Allison]

booB rides Again wrote:

------------------------

Either way, I think Win's original 4kHz is probably OK and the ear is
sensitive there unless the person is deaf at that frequency which
could definitly be the case for a lot of people.

** You just wont give up with that misconception.

It is not common to have lost most or all hearing at 4kHz unless you are 80 or 90 years old.

Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

FYI average 20 year old females can here 22kHz.

Audio has been my MY life long business - obviously it was never yours.

You stupid plonker.


...... Phil

 

[Ricky C]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 4:23:30 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

booB rides Again wrote:

------------------------

Either way, I think Win's original 4kHz is probably OK and the ear is
sensitive there unless the person is deaf at that frequency which
could definitly be the case for a lot of people.



** You just wont give up with that misconception.

It is not common to have lost most or all hearing at 4kHz unless you are 80 or 90 years old.

Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

FYI average 20 year old females can here 22kHz.

Audio has been my MY life long business - obviously it was never yours.

You stupid plonker.


..... Phil

Absolutely nothing you said contradicts what he said. It is mind boggling that you can't understand that.

Do you understand the meaning of, "a lot", "common", "most" and "average"? If you did you would know that even if everything you said is true, what Bob said can also be true.

Leave the guy alone and go back to your soldering iron.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Allison]

Ricky Cunthead is Insane wrote:

============================

Either way, I think Win's original 4kHz is probably OK and the ear is
sensitive there unless the person is deaf at that frequency which
could definitly be the case for a lot of people.



** You just wont give up with that misconception.

It is not common to have lost most or all hearing at 4kHz unless you are 80 or 90 years old.

Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

FYI average 20 year old females can here 22kHz.

Audio has been my MY life long business - obviously it was never yours.

You stupid plonker.


..... Phil

Absolutely nothing you said contradicts what he said.

** It absolutely fucking does.

It is mind boggling that you can't understand that.

** Your mind is permanently boggled.



> Do you understand the meaning of, "a lot", "common", "most" and "average"?

** Better than retards like you and fuckwit Boob do.

If you did you would know that even if everything you said is true,
what Bob said can also be true.

** No it can't.

Boob cannot hear 4kHz and is living in denial.

You have ASD plus a mental illness and also live in denial.

Hopefully not for much longer.


...... Phil

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:06:53 PM UTC-4, boB wrote:

On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:17:39 -0500, amdx wrote:

On 4/19/2020 12:53 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?


My hearing rolls off prety quick right at 4kHz.
I had a friend working on my computer and the beeper was
beeping, and ask him why and he said he could hear it.
It is much lower than 4kHz.
He had the memory in the wrong slots, that what caused the beeper to
sound.
Mikek


Some have nulls in their hearing spectrum and some, their HF response
just rolls off like Mikek's. If it is not a piezo beeper, you could
have two tones at once or alternating to make sure it is nticeable.

I think that around 3kHz is the most sensitive pitch for most people.

Also, lower frequencies, say, below 500 Hz are going to take a larger
transducer and higher power.

A severe notch in my hearing was one of the medical 4F ratings I was given when I registered for the draft at 18 years old. The draft board doctor said that because of where it was in the audio spectrum, "It could get you killed on the battlefield." I had four more 4F ratings and was told that I could never serve. They drafted me, two years later.

 

[Ricky C]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 5:52:39 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Ricky Cunthead is Insane wrote:

===========================

Either way, I think Win's original 4kHz is probably OK and the ear is
sensitive there unless the person is deaf at that frequency which
could definitly be the case for a lot of people.



** You just wont give up with that misconception.

It is not common to have lost most or all hearing at 4kHz unless you are 80 or 90 years old.

Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

FYI average 20 year old females can here 22kHz.

Audio has been my MY life long business - obviously it was never yours.

You stupid plonker.


..... Phil

Absolutely nothing you said contradicts what he said.

** It absolutely fucking does.


It is mind boggling that you can't understand that.


** Your mind is permanently boggled.



Do you understand the meaning of, "a lot", "common", "most" and "average"?

** Better than retards like you and fuckwit Boob do.


If you did you would know that even if everything you said is true,
what Bob said can also be true.


** No it can't.

Boob cannot hear 4kHz and is living in denial.

You don't even understand simple English. I checked and he only used two words with four syllables. So even you *should* have understood what he wrote, but you clearly didn't. You seem to have that problem a lot. Maybe Bob can repeat his post with smaller words.

I tried hard and only used three words with three syllables, you know, like Trump does to reach his supporters so they can understand what he says. Should I type more slowly for you?

You have ASD plus a mental illness and also live in denial.

Hopefully not for much longer.

You have me confused with Larkin. He is the one with Autism.

I hope you can work a bit harder to learn to comprehend what Bob wrote. I know it's a struggle, but I'm sure you and do it if you really, really want to.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Allison]

Ricky Cunthead is 100% INSANE

----------------------------

** You just wont give up with that misconception.

It is not common to have lost most or all hearing at 4kHz unless you are 80 or 90 years old.

Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

FYI average 20 year old females can here 22kHz.

Audio has been my MY life long business - obviously it was never yours.

You stupid plonker.


..... Phil

Absolutely nothing you said contradicts what he said.

** It absolutely fucking does.


It is mind boggling that you can't understand that.


** Your mind is permanently boggled.



Do you understand the meaning of, "a lot", "common", "most" and "average"?

** Better than retards like you and fuckwit Boob do.


If you did you would know that even if everything you said is true,
what Bob said can also be true.


** No it can't.

Boob cannot hear 4kHz and is living in denial.

You don't even understand simple English.

** You do not understand ANYTHING !!

You are Sovereign Citizen - aren't you ?

Complete Lunatic.



> I checked and he only used two words with four syllables.

** Here are two words with four letters:

" FUCK YOU "

You have ASD plus a mental illness and also live in denial.

Hopefully not for much longer.

You have me confused with Larkin. He is the one with Autism.

** JL is very far from being alone with ASD here.

I hope you can work a bit harder to learn to comprehend what Bob wrote.

** Even Boob does not comprehend the drivel he writes.

Cos he is infinitely baffled.





..... Phil

 

[Ricky C]

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 11:06:22 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Ricky Cunthead is 100% INSANE

----------------------------


** You just wont give up with that misconception.

It is not common to have lost most or all hearing at 4kHz unless you are 80 or 90 years old.

Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

FYI average 20 year old females can here 22kHz.

Audio has been my MY life long business - obviously it was never yours.

You stupid plonker.


..... Phil

Absolutely nothing you said contradicts what he said.

** It absolutely fucking does.


It is mind boggling that you can't understand that.


** Your mind is permanently boggled.



Do you understand the meaning of, "a lot", "common", "most" and "average"?

** Better than retards like you and fuckwit Boob do.


If you did you would know that even if everything you said is true,
what Bob said can also be true.


** No it can't.

Boob cannot hear 4kHz and is living in denial.

You don't even understand simple English.


** You do not understand ANYTHING !!

You are Sovereign Citizen - aren't you ?

Complete Lunatic.



I checked and he only used two words with four syllables.

** Here are two words with four letters:

" FUCK YOU "




You have ASD plus a mental illness and also live in denial.

Hopefully not for much longer.

You have me confused with Larkin. He is the one with Autism.


** JL is very far from being alone with ASD here.


I hope you can work a bit harder to learn to comprehend what Bob wrote.


** Even Boob does not comprehend the drivel he writes.

Cos he is infinitely baffled.

Not much to say in reply to any of this. Phil has lost his touch. Well, not that he ever had a touch. But it really is amazing that he understands nothing of what others write here and then gets so enraged by it that he compulsively swears and insults without saying anything that shows intelligence.

Yes, Phil clearly has some significant dysfunction. Anyone care to guess exactly what it is? It's almost like Tourette syndrome, but the swearing is accompanied by random utterances without any thought to them.

Psycho Phil!

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[boB]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:35:04 -0700 (PDT), Ricky C
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 5:52:39 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:
Ricky Cunthead is Insane wrote:

============================


Either way, I think Win's original 4kHz is probably OK and the ear is
sensitive there unless the person is deaf at that frequency which
could definitly be the case for a lot of people.



** You just wont give up with that misconception.

It is not common to have lost most or all hearing at 4kHz unless you are 80 or 90 years old.

Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

FYI average 20 year old females can here 22kHz.

Audio has been my MY life long business - obviously it was never yours.

You stupid plonker.


..... Phil

Absolutely nothing you said contradicts what he said.

** It absolutely fucking does.


It is mind boggling that you can't understand that.


** Your mind is permanently boggled.



Do you understand the meaning of, "a lot", "common", "most" and "average"?

** Better than retards like you and fuckwit Boob do.


If you did you would know that even if everything you said is true,
what Bob said can also be true.


** No it can't.

Boob cannot hear 4kHz and is living in denial.

You don't even understand simple English. I checked and he only used two words with four syllables. So even you *should* have understood what he wrote, but you clearly didn't. You seem to have that problem a lot. Maybe Bob can repeat his post with smaller words.

I tried hard and only used three words with three syllables, you know, like Trump does to reach his supporters so they can understand what he says. Should I type more slowly for you?


You have ASD plus a mental illness and also live in denial.

Hopefully not for much longer.

You have me confused with Larkin. He is the one with Autism.

I hope you can work a bit harder to learn to comprehend what Bob wrote. I know it's a struggle, but I'm sure you and do it if you really, really want to.

Thanks Rick but I think Phil only heard in mono...
Throgh his A-Hole

 

[gregz]

<jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

On 19 Apr 2020 10:53:38 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

Annoying if audible. It's really hard to localize those nasty piezo
buzzers.

If they used square waves localization is much easier for most users.

Greg

 

[Phil Allison]

Gz wrote:

----------

Annoying if audible. It's really hard to localize those nasty piezo
buzzers.



If they used square waves localization is much easier for most users.

** Nonsenese.

Localisation difficulty is caused by massive room echoes.

Plus the third harmonic at 12kHz is the only audible one, so useless to anyone over 60.


..... Phil

 

[Ricky C]

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 5:15:54 AM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Gz wrote:

----------

Annoying if audible. It's really hard to localize those nasty piezo
buzzers.



If they used square waves localization is much easier for most users.


** Nonsenese.

Localisation difficulty is caused by massive room echoes.

Plus the third harmonic at 12kHz is the only audible one, so useless to anyone over 60.


.... Phil

Phil is contradicting himself.


On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 4:23:30 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:
> Average 70 year olds can hear up to 11kHz.

So at 60 no one hears 12 kHz but at 70 the average person hears 11 kHz??? Between 60 and 70 most people's hearing limit is stable to 1 kHz between 11 kHz and 12 kHz???

I guess if you consider "average" means whatever Phil wants it to mean.

But this guy is the expert according to so many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

I really like this one... no matter what Phil thinks of it.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in
news:371f001d-99de-43dd-8604-5b3dc9f3fb7b@googlegroups.com:

Gz wrote:

----------

Annoying if audible. It's really hard to localize those nasty
piezo buzzers.



If they used square waves localization is much easier for most
users.


** Nonsenese.

Localisation difficulty is caused by massive room echoes.

Plus the third harmonic at 12kHz is the only audible one, so
useless to anyone over 60.


.... Phil

Plus square wave input to such an audio transducer rarely get
produced as a true square. Things get rounded. Same with sawtooth.
The transducer simply cannot respond that fast and the mechanical
response itself gets damped a bit.

I have a tuning app on my ipad that generates the full range of
musical notes in various waveform shapes. It is really cool and one
of the few apps I actually paid for the fool version of and I am not
even a musician, other than my likes and I can sing. Great app, if
you want to choose a good tone.

<https://tonalenergy.com/>

 

On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 07:43:57 -0000 (UTC), gregz <zekor@comcast.net>
wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
On 19 Apr 2020 10:53:38 -0700, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com
wrote:

I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

Annoying if audible. It's really hard to localize those nasty piezo
buzzers.



If they used square waves localization is much easier for most users.

Greg

But the cheap piezos are resonant ceramic slabs.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard