Is 4kHz too high a beeper frequency?

[Ricky C]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:06:53 PM UTC-4, boB wrote:

On Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:17:39 -0500, amdx <nojunk@knology.net> wrote:

On 4/19/2020 12:53 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:
I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?


My hearing rolls off prety quick right at 4kHz.
I had a friend working on my computer and the beeper was
beeping, and ask him why and he said he could hear it.
It is much lower than 4kHz.
He had the memory in the wrong slots, that what caused the beeper to
sound.
Mikek


Some have nulls in their hearing spectrum and some, their HF response
just rolls off like Mikek's. If it is not a piezo beeper, you could
have two tones at once or alternating to make sure it is nticeable.

I think that around 3kHz is the most sensitive pitch for most people.

Also, lower frequencies, say, below 500 Hz are going to take a larger
transducer and higher power.

No, just a lower resonance which can be done via acoustic coupling or mechanical coupling. A little bit of thought to the packaging can probably half that frequency and produce more volume from less energy.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky C]

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 10:38:15 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Winfield Hill wrote:

----------------------

I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?


** Only those with severe hearing loss.

I would not expect that from *workers* in health care.

You mean they don't allow the deaf to work in healthcare? I never knew that.

I guess the deaf can't work in a lot of jobs where you have to interact with people. No, I ran into my deaf sign language teacher working in a store once. So that's not it.

I guess they have a test for healthcare workers. If you can't hear the beeps and boops you can't work there.

Yeah, that's got to be it.

I was going to call you an idiot, but then I realized you probably consider that to be your name at this point!

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky C]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 12:32:46 AM UTC-4, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2020-04-19, Winfield Hill <winfieldhill@yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.

https://www.digikey.com/products/en/audio-products/alarms-buzzers-and-sirens/157

cursoring through the frequency options and watching the number of
matches suggests that around 3kHz is most common frequency for this
type of thing, but upoon selecting "medical" the highest frequency
available was 2.075 kHz.

Listening to a 1 kHz tone I realize that it sounds a lot higher pitch than I would expect. It's still high enough to be annoying, but much less so than 4 kHz and I think it would stand out in the crowd of device beeps.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Allison]

Ricky Childish is a Fucking Nut Case
=====================================

Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?


** Only those with severe hearing loss.

I would not expect that from *workers* in health care.


You mean they don't allow the deaf to work in healthcare?

** Nor fucking IDIOTS like you - shithead.

> I never knew that.

** Or anything else.

I guess they have a test for healthcare workers.
If you can't hear the beeps and boops you can't work there.

Yeah, that's got to be it.

** Must be one of them rocket scientist types ....



..... Phil

 

[Ricky C]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 2:39:13 AM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote:

Ricky Childish is a Fucking Nut Case
=====================================


Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?


** Only those with severe hearing loss.

I would not expect that from *workers* in health care.


You mean they don't allow the deaf to work in healthcare?


** Nor fucking IDIOTS like you - shithead.

I never knew that.

** Or anything else.


I guess they have a test for healthcare workers.
If you can't hear the beeps and boops you can't work there.

Yeah, that's got to be it.


** Must be one of them rocket scientist types ....



.... Phil

Phil is always such a trip. He literally can't find anything intelligent to say in most of his posts. Nothing at all. He just denies, insults and swears. Phil DIS.

Just another alwayswrong and alwaysstupid.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Pimpom]

On 4/20/2020 6:58 AM, Winfield Hill wrote:

dcaster@krl.org wrote...

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

Have you considered having a LED in parallel with the beeper?

Yes, there's a controller-operated LED, the buzzer
is to supplement that. The process takes several
minutes; users probably don't look at dark LEDs.
Hmm, it could start a ramp-up blinking process.

It just so happens that I designed a piezo-based alarm system
last week but haven't tested it yet. It uses a 2kHz beeper
switched on/off at ~15Hz to produce a warbling effect. This in
turn pulses at 0.5Hz, that is, 1 sec on, 1 sec off. I expect that
this will be better at drawing attention than a continuous beep.

 

On Monday, 20 April 2020 08:14:31 UTC+1, Pimpom wrote:

On 4/20/2020 6:58 AM, Winfield Hill wrote:
dcaster@krl.org wrote...

On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

Have you considered having a LED in parallel with the beeper?

Yes, there's a controller-operated LED, the buzzer
is to supplement that. The process takes several
minutes; users probably don't look at dark LEDs.
Hmm, it could start a ramp-up blinking process.


It just so happens that I designed a piezo-based alarm system
last week but haven't tested it yet. It uses a 2kHz beeper
switched on/off at ~15Hz to produce a warbling effect. This in
turn pulses at 0.5Hz, that is, 1 sec on, 1 sec off. I expect that
this will be better at drawing attention than a continuous beep.

Something like that will also be much easier to localise than a constant
tone. A lot of trucks in the UK have a reversing noise which consists
of bursts of "random" noise in order to make localisation easier.

John

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <e5be80c8-9bb6-411f-b52c-6a641cd02f90@googlegroups.com>,
jrwalliker@gmail.com says...

Something like that will also be much easier to localise than a
constant
tone. A lot of trucks in the UK have a reversing noise which consists
of bursts of "random" noise in order to make localisation easier.

John

Not to mention emergency vehicles' "sirens"...

Mike.

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 20/4/20 3:53 am, Winfield Hill wrote:

I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

The standard smoke alarm frequency is 3100Hz.

It's important that the alarm should wake most people, including partly
deaf ones. So that frequency is a good bet.

Clifford Heath

 

On Monday, 20 April 2020 12:08:39 UTC+1, Mike Coon wrote:

In article <e5be80c8-9bb6-411f-b52c-6a641cd02f90@googlegroups.com>,
jrwalliker@gmail.com says...

Something like that will also be much easier to localise than a
constant
tone. A lot of trucks in the UK have a reversing noise which consists
of bursts of "random" noise in order to make localisation easier.

John

Not to mention emergency vehicles' "sirens"...

Mike.

Indeed. Lots of data here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8504101_Localizable_auditory_warning_pulses/link/5480ccf30cf20f081e72694d/download

John

 

[Bill Gill]

On 4/20/2020 7:37 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 20/4/20 3:53 am, Winfield Hill wrote:
  I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
  that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
  in the health-care industry.  It's got 115 SMT
  parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
  chose the smallest practical part choices.  It
  has a beeper.  The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
  most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
  Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
  to hear for some users?

The standard smoke alarm frequency is 3100Hz.

It's important that the alarm should wake most people, including partly
deaf ones. So that frequency is a good bet.

Clifford Heath
I can't hear the standard smoke alarm beeps.

Bill

 

[Bill Gill]

On 4/19/2020 12:53 PM, Winfield Hill wrote:

I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

When I am testing my smoke detectors I can barely hear
the beep, even when I am standing right under it. I strongly
suggest a frequency lower than 2 kHz. My smoke detectors
have a vocal alarm also.

Bill

 

Bill Gill <billnews2@cox.net> wrote in
news:r7k7f4$571$2@dont-email.me:

On 4/20/2020 7:37 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 20/4/20 3:53 am, Winfield Hill wrote:
  I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
  that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
  in the health-care industry.  It's got 115 SMT
  parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
  chose the smallest practical part choices.  It
  has a beeper.  The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
  most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
  Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
  to hear for some users?

The standard smoke alarm frequency is 3100Hz.

It's important that the alarm should wake most people, including
partly deaf ones. So that frequency is a good bet.

Clifford Heath
I can't hear the standard smoke alarm beeps.

Bill

WTF are you guys old and decrepit?

Maybe a smoke alarm should hook into one's stereo system and when
it goes off, it plays a recording of a fireman pounding on your front
door hollering.

Tired of that thump, thump, thump of "Hey buddy you are about to
burn to death". Get Billy Rooter! Run Billy... Run Billy...

 

[Ricky C]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 8:37:36 AM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 20/4/20 3:53 am, Winfield Hill wrote:
I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

The standard smoke alarm frequency is 3100Hz.

It's important that the alarm should wake most people, including partly
deaf ones. So that frequency is a good bet.

It's also useful if the alarm can be located when the low battery warning makes it sound for a fraction of a second every five minutes.

I have an open balcony and a smoke detector on that level as well as one right below. On top of that I found out when you remove the battery there is a hold up circuit that makes it continue to beep that way for quite some time. Insane!

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[John Robertson]

On 2020/04/19 11:37 a.m., Winfield Hill wrote:

piglet wrote...

On 19/04/2020 6:53 pm, Winfield Hill wrote:
I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?

Almost everyone should be able to hear it but for
some it will be so high pitched or faint that they
may not recognize it as something important.

Can you buzz it on and off at 300-400Hz?

Yes, will that help enough? We'll be driving it with
a microcontroller, so we can wobble frequency, or do
almost anything. Hmm, will I be able to hear it? OK,
asked my phone to make 4kHz, high but I hear it fine.
Maybe I'd better place several choices on the prototype
PCB, which won't be laid out for minimum overall size.

Have you thought of asking the health care people who would likely be
using this tool what sort of notification they want?

In many cases there are a great many devices beeping and booping all
around them, so if this is a life-saving device I would perhaps want to
have it also strobe some sort of light to really catch one's attention
in a possibly noisy environment.

John

 

[Winfield Hill]

Bill Gill wrote...

When I am testing my smoke detectors I can barely
hear the beep, even when I am standing right under
it. I strongly suggest a frequency lower than 2 kHz.

Yes. The 1 and 2kHz versions have rather large
diameters, but thin piezo disk versions can easily
slip on top of the circuit board, if tall parts,
like inductors, etc., are located elsewhere.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Winfield Hill]

jrwalliker@gmail.com wrote...

Mike Coon wrote:
John, jrwalliker@gmail.com says...

Something like that will also be much easier to localise
than a constant tone. A lot of trucks in the UK have a
reversing noise which consists of bursts of "random"
noise in order to make localisation easier.

Not to mention emergency vehicles' "sirens"...

Indeed. Lots of data here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8504101_Localizable_auditory_warning_pul
ses/link/5480ccf30cf20f081e72694d/download

Nice link, thanks.


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Ricky C]

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 12:51:37 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 12:31:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:
Bill Gill wrote...

When I am testing my smoke detectors I can barely
hear the beep, even when I am standing right under
it. I strongly suggest a frequency lower than 2 kHz.

Yes. The 1 and 2kHz versions have rather large
diameters, but thin piezo disk versions can easily
slip on top of the circuit board, if tall parts,
like inductors, etc., are located elsewhere.


--
Thanks,
- Win

You can also try driving the smaller piezo off-resonance. It'll still
put out, just at lower level.

Or lower its resonance by acoustic or mechanical coupling. This can also increase the sound output by using a larger surface to couple the sound to the air or an acoustic cavity.

This is what they do in speaker cabinets to improve the frequency response.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 12:31:33 PM UTC-4, Winfield Hill wrote:

Bill Gill wrote...

When I am testing my smoke detectors I can barely
hear the beep, even when I am standing right under
it. I strongly suggest a frequency lower than 2 kHz.

Yes. The 1 and 2kHz versions have rather large
diameters, but thin piezo disk versions can easily
slip on top of the circuit board, if tall parts,
like inductors, etc., are located elsewhere.


--
Thanks,
- Win

You can also try driving the smaller piezo off-resonance. It'll still
put out, just at lower level.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[Clive Arthur]

On 19/04/2020 18:53, Winfield Hill wrote:

I'm finishing a design for a small instrument
that will be used by people of all ages, mostly
in the health-care industry. It's got 115 SMT
parts, so I've spent extra time struggling to
chose the smallest practical part choices. It
has a beeper. The CUI CSS-0578 is smaller than
most, only 5x5mm, but it wants to run at 4 kHz.
Is that going to be hard, or even impossible,
to hear for some users?


My hearing tails off at about 9kHz.

I have a digital thermometer with an approximate 4kHz beeper. I can
hear it, but the sound very easily gets 'lost' in ambient noise and I
find I have to actively listen for it.

Another thermometer (hers) uses a lower frequency and much easier to
hear. Same button cell, so probably similar drive.

John Woodgate would likely be an expert in this, but I don't know if
he's still around.

--
Cheers
Clive