Iraqi prisoner-abuse scandal widens; Pentagon investigating

Rich Grise · May 8, 2004

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news

n8n90hfkj0edaf1b4ttr7nb33hep3vado@4ax.com...

How a Lysistrata-style (as in the play by Aristophanes) effort by the
women of Iraq?

Is she like Lady Mo in Thailand? I haven't read the play, but Lady Mo

told all the women in Thailand to take the invaders to bed all on the
same night, and when they go to sleep, cut their throat. Thailand won.

It probalby wouldn't work. I doubt if you could get American soldiers
and Iraqi women to get into bed with each other in the first place.

Cheers!
Rich

Jim Thompson · May 8, 2004

On Sat, 08 May 2004 01:32:10 GMT, "Rich Grise" <null@example.net>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
newsn8n90hfkj0edaf1b4ttr7nb33hep3vado@4ax.com...

How a Lysistrata-style (as in the play by Aristophanes) effort by the
women of Iraq?

Is she like Lady Mo in Thailand? I haven't read the play, but Lady Mo
told all the women in Thailand to take the invaders to bed all on the
same night, and when they go to sleep, cut their throat. Thailand won.

It probalby wouldn't work. I doubt if you could get American soldiers
and Iraqi women to get into bed with each other in the first place.

Cheers!
Rich

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Rich Grise · May 8, 2004

"Stefan Heinzmann" <stefan_heinzmann@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c7gag0$s0t$05$1@news.t-online.com...

Are college fraternities really that bad? I'm appalled!

It's hard to get any real data about college fraternities either,
since they're all always so drunk, they can't remember anything
anyway.

Cheers!
Rich

Jim Thompson · May 8, 2004

On Sat, 08 May 2004 01:32:09 GMT, "Rich Grise" <null@example.net>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:c19n90djlc2jib699pdr255pfqsbopm8hq@4ax.com...

This is WAR, not kiss-em-up, politically-correct BS.

A war entered into unilaterally by the choice of one man.

There is no rational excuse for the USA to ever have attacked and
invaded Iraq.

[snip]

I guess I kinda disagree on that - I seem to have a way of
wanting to violate people's right to remain uninformed.

How 'bout that? ?;-

Cheers!
Rich

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John S. Dyson · May 8, 2004

In article <c7fgpv$k5m$1@bemesrrs011.be.eds.com>,
"Andre" <NOTMe@ailleur.com> writes:

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:c7f7ju$1sfj$1@news.iquest.net...
In article <c7equb01l1p@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes:
John S. Dyson wrote...

Why didn't the French media pick up on it, considering their
extremist anti-US bias? Answer: the pictures were the trigger.

It was the pictures CBS was asked not to release.

CBS was actually asked to hold the pictures for a while, because
of the sensitive situation in Falluja. You know (I mean, really)
that everyone knew that if CBS had such material that they were
definitely going to release it. Since Rumsfeld and crew have
the lives of American military as their responsibility, they have
an OBLIGATION to do things to avoid unnecessary killings of Americans
while still meeting the pacification and rebuilding goal. Using
censorship would have been counterproductive, even when a release
of information would cost lives, because it would have likely cause
the media to be more aggressive and more likely to be even more
inflammatory.

Can you possibly imagine that CBS would hold on to the pictures
indefinitely to protect American citizens or military? Don't
you think that Rumsfeld realizes that they were going to release
the pictures NO MATTER WHAT. CBS/CBC/ABC/NBC/CNN would all likely
release information that would risk the lives of Americans (and
not even give a second thought to American military, since
they are obviously expendable as indicated by the actions of
certain news organizations.)

The situation is obvious, where CBS news is interested in its
political position, economics and bragging rights relative to
other news organizations... Rumsfeld is interested in
prosecuting the war/liberation/pacification and most complete
political turnover of Iraq to the Iraqis with the least number
of American lives lost. It is NOT in the interest of the
American servicepeople to further aggravate the volatile
portions of the Iraqi constituency. This is PROBABLY one
reason why Rumsfeld (if he did so consciously) procrastinated
in the public release of information -- the risk was extremely
high, and lives are in Rumsfelds' hands.) If Rummy was totally
unfeeling about the servicepeople, I suspect that it would be
easy to release the entire information package as much as possible
and as much fanfare as possible like CBS seemed to do.

So, we have the political/bragging rights interests of CBS, vs
prosecution/military management of the Iraq situation. Everyone
knows that it would have almost been IMPOSSIBLE for CBS
to hold on to the pictures, and there were enough of the pictures
already that another news organization would have eventually
found and released them. Unfortunately, some corporations are
lesser citizens than they used to be, but in this case, the damage
wasn't as great as it might have been. The possibility of a news
organization like CNN or Fox scooping CBS on this matter would
be intolerable to the CBS mgmt, and the risking of Americans
(esp military) is a tolerable cost to CBS (but Rumsfeld didn't
want to see that risk.)

Nowadays, I'd fully expect organizations like CBS/CBC or CNN
to expose national secrets if at all possible, including
those which would condemn even large portions of the
American population to death. Even if the news organization wouldn't
release information that would kill large numbers of
American civilians, they would almost definitely do so
against American military. Note that the 'ugly pictures'
didn't need to be released in order for the intellectual
content to have been communicated to the populace.

If you consider the military of a leftist/socialist nation,
it would be fairly obvious that CNN/CBC or CBS would likely
extend a courtesy to that nation to protect their 'worthy'
people.

All in all, the information would have eventually been
released (some already was), the personnel were already
being processed, and if it would have been exposed in
5yrs, it would likely have been less painful and the
system would have been corrected anyway. Of the 'secrets'
that must be released, it is best that they be released in
a way to avoid negative impact on innocent and loyal servicepeople just
trying to do their jobs. This secret appears to have been
released earlier in the year (approx Jan), but then sensational
pictures made for good TV, thereby making difficult
situations worse.

John

BULLSHIT, don't you think election is the WORD to use !!

Nope -- I really don't believe that it was CBS's motivation

to try to throw the election. Hopefully, they are smart enough
to realize that the benefit for Kerry WRT this specific problem
would be small. It is most likely that CBS released the
pictures MOSTLY for the competitive news aspect (the most
plausible political aspect is discussed below.) They are so
much in to competition against the CNN/FOX cable stuff, that
I suspect that they didnt' want to chance their 'upstart'
competititon to be able to scoop the item. It would even be
worse if Drudge would scoop this also.

Regarding the election: Kerry is an admitted war criminal or
closely associated with war criminals. He is also someone who
had done severe damage to the morale of the US military. As such,
he is NOT a good example of someone who would be a 'solution' to
these problems, but this brings up memories of Kerry's misbehavior
and attempted political manipulations in his anti-military activities
in his post service life. No matter if you see this the same
way as I do, it is definitely a double-edged sword for Kerry
for these military misbehavior issues to be on the forefront
of the news. Hint: Is Kerry just another "Lynndie England" or
one of her close associates, where he would try to suggest
that the entire military acted like his own errant behavior?
Was he just projecting his own experience, or was he being
an intrinsically dishonest person? Actually, we need to IMPROVE
the now potentially very damaged morale of the military, and
people like Kerry arent' the answer.

Again, whether or not you agree with my assessment of Kerry, you
should be able to see that this could more strongly motivate
those who are disgusted with miscreants, and remember that
Kerry was most likely a miscreant in one way or another...

Next, It is CLEAR that CBS is relatively leftist leaning, their
characteristic 'leftist' attributes would be more of a
motivator for the anti-military propaganda, not really
being a pro-Kerry effect and CBS has been noteworthy
even from the Vietnam War era (Cronkites dishonest editorial
control, where he would show military defeats for the US,
when it was actually quite successful.)

Almost 100% associated with the world-leftist attitudes of CBS,
where in that world is it almost always wrong to say anything
good about America (even when it is quite appropriate to do so),
the stronger motivator of trying to prove their leftist philosophy as
the one true religion makes it very sensible (in the world
of the leftist religion) to try to weaken US military morale.

Frankly, it is 100% dishonest to claim that the news exposure
was helpful in remedying the abuses and helping as a forcing
function for proper ejudication. This wasn't a logical or
reasonable purpose for the exposure of the emotionally charged
pictures. The sole predominant reason for exposing those
pictures of terrible acts was for POLITICAL anti-US propaganda.

It becomes obvious that the COMPETENT reason for exposing the
heinous pictures was for propaganda
reasons, and not directed specifically against Bush, but in a general
sense, directed against the independency of America and directed
towards more international control of the US security. The
idea of 'honorable citizenship' or even the slightly stronger
'innocent patriotism' is an anathema to certain kinds of internationalists,
and news organizations with significant international involvement
are quite susceptable to that kind of poison against American
sovereignty. Exposing the pictures or any one act are DEFINITELY
not part of a 'plan' of some kind, but using the pictures as
propaganda results from that mindset.

The US army is way supperior to these resistance and the publication
wouldn't have changed much, but for the coming election ...

If you understand the electorate, the only people who would have

been seriously affected would have been to increase the already
religious fervor from the left. They are already maxxed out,
except for perhaps a euphemistic 'extreme protesting', which
would be true leftist terror acts. It is actually quite likely
that Rummy needs security protection from both the far left
'extreme protesters' as much as Bin Ladens 'extreme protesters',
and the religious vehemence of both groups is almost impossible
to overcome.

Anyone on the right or in the center, where we do look at history,
previous strategic decisions during the 1990s for the 'future'
(the current times today), we need to understand the effect of
excess downsizing in certain intelligence capabilities and
incompetent investment for future needs (cultivating Arabic/Farsi/etc
language capabilities), and excess downsizing that perhaps has
slightly impacted quality control at both the lowest levels and
even at the 1star General level.

The major amount of 'dishonesty' I have seen from Rummy over the
recent hearings had been his acceptance of responsibility, because
it MUST be interpreted in the way that such an acceptance makes
sense, and not how SOME people wish to intepret it. For example,
it DOES make sense for Rummy to take responsibility for resolving
the problems, but it makes NO SENSE (for example) for him to
apologize for not disrupting the judicial process by interfering
with it. There were strong suggestions that Rummy should have
short circuited long established military processes, but those
are obviously from incompetents who don't understand the systems
and the requirements for due process. It makes NO SENSE for Rummy
to apologize for the necessary
hiring of contractor translators and intelligence agents, when the
previous administration had actually downsized several of the
important specialties. So, it really isn' Rummys' fault per se,
but he is taking responsibility for cleaning up a mess that consists
of Rummys/Bush administration decisions and the Clinton administration
problems also.

One of the most important things that needs to be changed (and
one of Rummys' answers during the hearings showed his frustration)
is a lower latency process for allowing the upper levels of command
to access important facts about ongoing investigations into
misconduct. (I noted this earlier) This is one of the few times
that I have almost seen
him lose control, where he appeared to be very frustrated between
the 'rock' of avoiding an upset of the cases that would appropriately
punish the perpetrators, vs. the hard place of gaining access to
the information about the abuses and interview the parties so that
the important information could be passed upwards into the command
structure.

This 'seperation' is a very important part of the due process for
military people who are under investigation. The 'command interference'
issue is a well known problem, and probably something that Rummy
might be able to spearhead.

The short latencies (24hr news) needed for today are quite different
than the process that had been VERY VERY quick and efficient within
the established system, but inadequate for today.

John

John S. Dyson · May 8, 2004

In article <6a0o909utguu6tr2vrb1k54fesjq863o4a@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:

On Fri, 7 May 2004 01:40:43 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

---
What I wish is that self-styled "analysts" like you would refrain from
posturing and pretending that you have enough information to come to a
meaningful conclusion about situations about which you know nothing
for certain.

I definitely know more than you. When you make a clearly incorrect

claim, I'll happily correct it for you. If you don't make silly
claims, then I won't need to correct you.

Garbage. Strict adherence, by the officers in charge, to the rules of
the appropriate Geneva Convention and the Uniform Code of Military
Justice and the instilling of proper discipline in the enlisted troops
would have kept the situation from occurring in the first place.

Garbage: problems happen even in the most ideal conditions. You

prove incompetency by your idealistic (unrealistic) claim. The
reason why there is a process (as it has been transpiring) is because
problems 'happen.'

Mealy-mouthed weasel words, Dyson.

Ignorant claim -- bozo.

The system didn't fail, the
officers in charge did by not properly disciplining their troops, and
they should be held accountable.

Hint: when you steal electronics components from work, is it your

bosses fault? When you steal money from your children, is it your
parents fault? When you steal money from the IRS, is it their
fault also?

Fuck you, Dyson, I'll do what I damn well please and I'll shove that
shit you preach right back down your throat any time I feel like it.

Profane langage helps to show your ignorance. Thank you .

Yes, but this is not the proper venue for your political diatribe.

I'll continue to correct your errors.

As a matter of fact you're in direct violation of this group's charter
and raison d'étre, which is the discussion of matters electronic,
particularly issues surrounding electronic design.

I'll continue to correct your off topic and on topic errors.

John

John S. Dyson · May 8, 2004

In article <c7hb5002u70@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes:

sure your ISP can make you see the folly of your continued defiance of
our charter. Something about "Terms of Service" and SPAM, I think.

hear, hear!

If you make a posting, and it is in error, I'll continue to correct you.

John

Openslather · May 8, 2004

toor@iquest.net (John S. Dyson) wrote in message news:<c7f5q5$1ruf$1@news.iquest.net>...

In article <9HCmc.172126$L31.139870@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>,
"Rich Grise" <null@example.net> writes:
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:sfdl90lfvqc0kuher6f61d6uo07f7u2ov1@4ax.com...
On 6 May 2004 14:15:59 -0700, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote...

However, we should make NO apologies.

We should make it clear that, given a choice between being
liked and being feared, we will always choose FEARED.

The problem is, with these rape photos, which are widely
distributed, we won't be so much feared, as loathed and
despised. Somehow we need to put this right, find all the
men who did it and fully and publically prosecute. And
apologize, of course, what's the matter with you Thompson?

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

I have an uneasy feeling that quite of few of these photos are fake.
Amazing that they're showing up on porn sites.

Does the state apologize to crime victims?

...Jim Thompson

No, the perpetrator does, if he's got any humanity left in him.
In this case, the perpretrator is the state, so it should, in
fact, apologize.

Actually, since the military personnel weren't following the
rules and/or their lawful orders, then the perpetrator was
well below the level of the 'state.' Instead, the perpetrators
were those who violated legitimate government policy. While
some of the Iraqi/non-Iraqi prisoners were abused (perhaps some
killed), it is true that the prisoners were 'violated' in
some cases. However, the American government was also
'violated' in both a breach of trust and also damage to foreign
policy.

If you don't read the rest of this posting, the bottom line:

In the case of the Iraqi prisoners who were truly
excessively abused, the victims include the Iraqi
prisoners AND THE US GOVERNMENT. The perpetrators
(in certain cases) were likely doing illegal and
unapproved activities. It makes no sense for the
victim to apologize to another victim in this case.

For example, if a police officer 'tunes up' a suspect, the
state didn't do the 'tuning', unless the 'tuning' operation
was approved by the state AND its lawful representatives.
When Andy Sipowitz used to 'tune up' suspects, he was doing
so illegally, and should be charged with a crime. Just because
such errant behavior happens from time to time, it doesn't make
it 'legal', 'morally/ethically correct' or even 'the best thing
to do for now.' If Andy is found out to be doing excessive
'tuning', and the state knowingly lets Andy keep on doing the
'tuning', then they become responsible.

As soon as the allegations became credible, the suspects appear
to have been reassigned or taken in custody or equivalent. The
young girl 'Lyndie' has apparently been restricted for quite some time.

When 'tuning' and other kinds of abuses encroach into a system,
more likely than not, that is due to a system that is overwhelmed,
and people are feelling pressure to speed up the process. Since
these activities are in the 'intelligence gathering' arena, it
appears that the pressure was strong from the intelligence
community.

Perhaps the damage done by the CIA (and other field intelligence
gathering divisions and agencies) in the 1995/1996 is more of the
problem than downsizing the military itself. It looks like
military people were put into a position that they werent'
prepared for, and that the overwhelmed intelligence people were
taking advantage of the young military people who probably
had relatively weak command structure (so, there was a military
downsizing component.)

So, if Bush should say things that sound like 'apologies', it
should be more of a promise to investigate, ejudicate and
punish guilty parties. On the other hand, those who were
innocent (Or relatively so), should be allowed to continue
their lives as they wish. Those who are guilty of the
most heinous acts (actual rape or murder), should be punished
as appropriate. Also, I hope that someone who is
coincedentally 'killed' while being coerced isn't mistaken
to be murder.

The sexual pressure (no contact), and embarassment must not
be deemed to be 'heinous' either. I mean, in my normal day-to-day
life, I prefer privacy in the bathroom, and it would be
very very uncomfortable to use the bathroom in public. However,
it certainly IS NOT torture for me to be forced to 'use the
bathroom' in front of my jailers and other prisoners... (This
isn't technically sexual pressure, but shows that uncomfortable
situations aren't necessarily torture.)

I am tired, and time for bed -- sometimes worry about making sense.

John

If the commanders knew of the torture, and it did not stop it, then
the doctrine of "commander responsibility", developed since the days
of the Yamashita trial, could possibly apply in trials (which are
never going to happen) in the ICC or an ad hoc tribunal. The defence
of obeying competent authority, if the torture was ordered by someone
higher up, will also not get them off completely; it will merely
mitigate punishment.

Fred Bloggs · May 8, 2004

On Fri, 07 May 2004 17:38:53 +0200, Stefan Heinzmann
<stefan_heinzmann@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:

You are a pathetic little over-sheltered pussy supreme! What rape
pictures?! This whole non-scandal is 100% political, the allegations
of the so-called abuse are about equivalent to the hazing activity in
your average American college fraternity! Poking a pen light in
someone's butthole is NOT rape. Awww- would this humiliate you, pussy
boy- then again you're a wimp !

Then I'm a pathetic little over-sheltered pussy supreme wimp, too.

Having to stand still on a box with a sandbag over my head and electric
wires attached to hands and penis in the very prison where Saddam
Hussein used to torture and kill thousands of people, and being told
that I'd be electrocuted if I fell off the box would most certainly
humiliate me and scare the mickey out of me.

But then, I'm a European, so that may be no surprise to you.

I'm trying to imagine what you'd feel like being captured by a group of
Shiites led by el Sadr, who are starting to poke pen-lights up your
butthole for fun while waving about their guns...

Are college fraternities really that bad? I'm appalled!
HERE IS THE DEAL: IRAQ IS A "WAR ZONE". THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS A LOT

OF DEATH, DESTRUCTION, AND CHAOS TAKING PLACE THERE. YOU CANNOT JUDGE
THE BEHAVIOR OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED AGAINST CIVILIAN STANDARDS. THE
LOUSY LITTLE WIMP VERMIN DRAFT DODGERS LIKE WIMP HILL- PEOPLE WHO
WOULD NEVER BE WITHIN 1000 MILES OF GETTING THEIR ASS SHOT OFF- HAVE
ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO JUDGE THE THESE PEOPLE OR ANY OTHER
***WARFIGHTER***. THESE LITTLE PUSSY PARASITES WILL NEVER ACCEPT THE
***FACT*** THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO ENJOY THEIR COMFORTABLE LITTLE
DECADENT PUSSY LIFESTYLES BECAUSE OF MENTALITIES THAT SINK FAR- AND
THIS IS A BIG FAR- LOWER THAN THE WIMPY LITTLE SO-CALLED ABUSIVE JAIL
GUARDS IN THE NEWS NOW. THE WHOLE INCIDENT IS A GODAMMED SHOW, THE
DETAINEES IN THAT PRISON ARE SERIOUS CRIMINAL GARABGE EVEN BY IRAQI
STANDARDS- COULD CARE LESS IF THEY WHAT THEY HELL THEY DID WIH THEM.

Frank Bemelman · May 8, 2004

"Fred Bloggs" <nospam@nospam.com> schreef in bericht
news:45hp90da9joad85ibjqg9lfu1q0i7rmd2k@4ax.com...

HERE IS THE DEAL: IRAQ IS A "WAR ZONE". THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS A LOT
OF DEATH, DESTRUCTION, AND CHAOS TAKING PLACE THERE. YOU CANNOT JUDGE
THE BEHAVIOR OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED AGAINST CIVILIAN STANDARDS. THE
LOUSY LITTLE WIMP VERMIN DRAFT DODGERS LIKE WIMP HILL- PEOPLE WHO
WOULD NEVER BE WITHIN 1000 MILES OF GETTING THEIR ASS SHOT OFF- HAVE
ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO JUDGE THE THESE PEOPLE OR ANY OTHER
***WARFIGHTER***. THESE LITTLE PUSSY PARASITES WILL NEVER ACCEPT THE
***FACT*** THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO ENJOY THEIR COMFORTABLE LITTLE
DECADENT PUSSY LIFESTYLES BECAUSE OF MENTALITIES THAT SINK FAR- AND
THIS IS A BIG FAR- LOWER THAN THE WIMPY LITTLE SO-CALLED ABUSIVE JAIL
GUARDS IN THE NEWS NOW. THE WHOLE INCIDENT IS A GODAMMED SHOW, THE
DETAINEES IN THAT PRISON ARE SERIOUS CRIMINAL GARABGE EVEN BY IRAQI
STANDARDS- COULD CARE LESS IF THEY WHAT THEY HELL THEY DID WIH THEM.

Can I remove my ear plugs now? ;-)

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

John Fields · May 8, 2004

On Sat, 8 May 2004 05:20:21 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

In article <6a0o909utguu6tr2vrb1k54fesjq863o4a@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:
On Fri, 7 May 2004 01:40:43 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

---
What I wish is that self-styled "analysts" like you would refrain from
posturing and pretending that you have enough information to come to a
meaningful conclusion about situations about which you know nothing
for certain.

I definitely know more than you. When you make a clearly incorrect
claim, I'll happily correct it for you. If you don't make silly
claims, then I won't need to correct you.

---
Go back and read your pointless trash and you may find that for all
you _think_ you know the stupid claims being made are yours.
---

Garbage. Strict adherence, by the officers in charge, to the rules of
the appropriate Geneva Convention and the Uniform Code of Military
Justice and the instilling of proper discipline in the enlisted troops
would have kept the situation from occurring in the first place.

Garbage: problems happen even in the most ideal conditions. You
prove incompetency by your idealistic (unrealistic) claim. The
reason why there is a process (as it has been transpiring) is because
problems 'happen.'

---
The point is, the problem would have been averted by adhering to
easily followed, proven procedures which would have obviated the need
for the pound of cure. Much like your failing to follow the rules
here has necessitated the rather unpleasant dialogue you find being
hurled at you from all quarters. Take a hint; take a hike.
---

Mealy-mouthed weasel words, Dyson.

Ignorant claim -- bozo.

---
Prove they're not.
---

The system didn't fail, the
officers in charge did by not properly disciplining their troops, and
they should be held accountable.

Hint: when you steal electronics components from work, is it your
bosses fault?

---
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I don't steal anything from work, but if there is no policy in place
about whether it's OK or not to take things from work, and I haven't
been taught that stealing is wrong, then yes, it's the boss's fault.
---

When you steal money from your children, is it your
parents fault?

---
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I don't steal money from my children but if I did because my parents
hadn't taught me better, yes, it would be their fault. Exactly like
if I didn't teach my children that to steal was wrong and they stole
from their children it would be my fault.
---

When you steal money from the IRS, is it their
fault also?

---
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I don't steal money from the IRS, they steal it from me. It's my duty
as an American Citizen to keep as much of it as I can for myself, and
to do everything in my power, within the bounds set by law, to keep
their hands out of my pockets.
---

Fuck you, Dyson, I'll do what I damn well please and I'll shove that
shit you preach right back down your throat any time I feel like it.

Profane langage helps to show your ignorance. Thank you .

---
Every word you type shows yours. Fuck you.
---

Yes, but this is not the proper venue for your political diatribe.

I'll continue to correct your errors.

---
You'll continue to yap on and nip at everyones heels until you're
leashed and properly housebroken, is more like it.
---

As a matter of fact you're in direct violation of this group's charter
and raison d'étre, which is the discussion of matters electronic,
particularly issues surrounding electronic design.

I'll continue to correct your off topic and on topic errors.

---
It may well be too late for you because of your lack of resources,
but you would do well to examine your own untenable position before
you find that you've dug a hole from which you can't extricate
yourself.

--
John Fields

Jim Thompson · May 8, 2004

On Sat, 08 May 2004 11:39:18 GMT, Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 07 May 2004 17:38:53 +0200, Stefan Heinzmann
stefan_heinzmann@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]
I'm trying to imagine what you'd feel like being captured by a group of
Shiites led by el Sadr, who are starting to poke pen-lights up your
butthole for fun while waving about their guns...

Are college fraternities really that bad? I'm appalled!
HERE IS THE DEAL: IRAQ IS A "WAR ZONE". THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS A LOT
OF DEATH, DESTRUCTION, AND CHAOS TAKING PLACE THERE. YOU CANNOT JUDGE
THE BEHAVIOR OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED AGAINST CIVILIAN STANDARDS. THE
LOUSY LITTLE WIMP VERMIN DRAFT DODGERS LIKE WIMP HILL- PEOPLE WHO
WOULD NEVER BE WITHIN 1000 MILES OF GETTING THEIR ASS SHOT OFF- HAVE
ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO JUDGE THE THESE PEOPLE OR ANY OTHER
***WARFIGHTER***. THESE LITTLE PUSSY PARASITES WILL NEVER ACCEPT THE
***FACT*** THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO ENJOY THEIR COMFORTABLE LITTLE
DECADENT PUSSY LIFESTYLES BECAUSE OF MENTALITIES THAT SINK FAR- AND
THIS IS A BIG FAR- LOWER THAN THE WIMPY LITTLE SO-CALLED ABUSIVE JAIL
GUARDS IN THE NEWS NOW. THE WHOLE INCIDENT IS A GODAMMED SHOW, THE
DETAINEES IN THAT PRISON ARE SERIOUS CRIMINAL GARABGE EVEN BY IRAQI
STANDARDS- COULD CARE LESS IF THEY WHAT THEY HELL THEY DID WIH THEM.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John S. Dyson · May 8, 2004

In article <1jnp9093qv0m69fkmf2vv6oedjc9r993ii@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:

On Sat, 8 May 2004 05:20:21 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

In article <6a0o909utguu6tr2vrb1k54fesjq863o4a@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:
On Fri, 7 May 2004 01:40:43 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

I definitely know more than you. When you make a clearly incorrect
claim, I'll happily correct it for you. If you don't make silly
claims, then I won't need to correct you.

Go back and read your pointless trash and you may find that for all
you _think_ you know the stupid claims being made are yours.

You should do so yourself. Your rant is 'interesting', and shows

some 'instability.'

Garbage: problems happen even in the most ideal conditions. You
prove incompetency by your idealistic (unrealistic) claim. The
reason why there is a process (as it has been transpiring) is because
problems 'happen.'

Of course my claim above is true... 'Discipline' doesn't guarantee good

behavior. It is your idiocy where you seem to obviate the need for
punishment...

Rest of your off CONTINUED topic nonsense elided...
I kept the nonsense below for reference

.

Fuck you, Dyson, I'll do what I damn well please and I'll shove that
shit you preach right back down your throat any time I feel like it.

Profane langage helps to show your ignorance. Thank you .

Profane language helps to show your ignorance. Thank you .

John

John S. Dyson · May 8, 2004

In article <400q90thfa0h3e2jqfali5pv5tgqsl5m2p@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> writes:

On Sat, 08 May 2004 11:39:18 GMT, Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com
wrote:

On Fri, 07 May 2004 17:38:53 +0200, Stefan Heinzmann
stefan_heinzmann@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]
I'm trying to imagine what you'd feel like being captured by a group of
Shiites led by el Sadr, who are starting to poke pen-lights up your
butthole for fun while waving about their guns...

Are college fraternities really that bad? I'm appalled!
HERE IS THE DEAL: IRAQ IS A "WAR ZONE". THIS MEANS THAT THERE IS A LOT
OF DEATH, DESTRUCTION, AND CHAOS TAKING PLACE THERE. YOU CANNOT JUDGE
THE BEHAVIOR OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED AGAINST CIVILIAN STANDARDS. THE
LOUSY LITTLE WIMP VERMIN DRAFT DODGERS LIKE WIMP HILL- PEOPLE WHO
WOULD NEVER BE WITHIN 1000 MILES OF GETTING THEIR ASS SHOT OFF- HAVE
ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO JUDGE THE THESE PEOPLE OR ANY OTHER
***WARFIGHTER***. THESE LITTLE PUSSY PARASITES WILL NEVER ACCEPT THE
***FACT*** THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO ENJOY THEIR COMFORTABLE LITTLE
DECADENT PUSSY LIFESTYLES BECAUSE OF MENTALITIES THAT SINK FAR- AND
THIS IS A BIG FAR- LOWER THAN THE WIMPY LITTLE SO-CALLED ABUSIVE JAIL
GUARDS IN THE NEWS NOW. THE WHOLE INCIDENT IS A GODAMMED SHOW, THE
DETAINEES IN THAT PRISON ARE SERIOUS CRIMINAL GARABGE EVEN BY IRAQI
STANDARDS- COULD CARE LESS IF THEY WHAT THEY HELL THEY DID WIH THEM.

Now Fred. You have to stop this vacillation and get off the fence ;-)

Was Wimp Hill really a draft dodger? I would have purchased his next

book, even with his insane politics, until it is admitted that he
is a 'dodger.' Frankly, if he is a 'dodger', I'd protest against him
and a total waste of humanity, and not worthy of American commerce.

(Not even GWB was a 'dodger', and the 'war criminal' Kerry wasn't
a 'dodger' either, even though he left the service based upon
on of his 'purple hearts' resulting from a superficial self-injury.)

John

John Fields · May 8, 2004

On Sat, 8 May 2004 16:42:01 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

In article <1jnp9093qv0m69fkmf2vv6oedjc9r993ii@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:

Go back and read your pointless trash and you may find that for all
you _think_ you know the stupid claims being made are yours.

You should do so yourself. Your rant is 'interesting', and shows
some 'instability.'

---
"IKYABWAI"? C'mon, Dyson, is that the best you can do?
---

Garbage: problems happen even in the most ideal conditions. You
prove incompetency by your idealistic (unrealistic) claim. The
reason why there is a process (as it has been transpiring) is because
problems 'happen.'

Of course my claim above is true... 'Discipline' doesn't guarantee good
behavior. It is your idiocy where you seem to obviate the need for
punishment...

---
Obfuscatory snipping, huh? Figures. Since you can't deal with it you
snip it and pretend it wasn't there.

While properly instilled discipline can't guarantee adherence to good
behavior by all, lack of discipline _will_ guarantee bad behavior, as
evidenced by your shenanigans here. Moreover, if you think that I
advocate not punishing the grunts, then I suspect that your _lack_ of
reading comprehension is honest ignorance or a deliberate attempt at
manipulation. More than likely the first, since you're obviously too
damned stupid to pull off the second.
---

Rest of your off CONTINUED topic nonsense elided...
I kept the nonsense below for reference .

---
Grow up.

--
John Fields

Paul Burridge · May 8, 2004

On Sat, 8 May 2004 16:42:01 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

Rest of your off CONTINUED topic nonsense elided...
I kept the nonsense below for reference .

John, John, John... None of the stuff you're posting here appears to
have any relevance to electronics at all. Give it a rest, eh? Thanks.

p.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

John S. Dyson · May 8, 2004

In article <gt5q90hg1qcmntov32dsv7cubvpp407l15@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:

On Sat, 8 May 2004 16:42:01 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

In article <1jnp9093qv0m69fkmf2vv6oedjc9r993ii@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:

Go back and read your pointless trash and you may find that for all
you _think_ you know the stupid claims being made are yours.

You should do so yourself. Your rant is 'interesting', and shows
some 'instability.'

C'mon, Dyson, is that the best you can do?

Nope -- you are just silly and profane... Leftists tend to be

like that... (Hint, Rummy needs protection from people like YOU
and Usama, for example.)

Garbage: problems happen even in the most ideal conditions. You
prove incompetency by your idealistic (unrealistic) claim. The
reason why there is a process (as it has been transpiring) is because
problems 'happen.'

Of course my claim above is true... 'Discipline' doesn't guarantee good
behavior. It is your idiocy where you seem to obviate the need for
punishment...

Since you can't deal with it you
snip it and pretend it wasn't there.

Note that most of your nonsense is off topic WRT your profanity.

Also, you have disproved nothing that I have claimed.

John

Winfield Hill · May 8, 2004

John S. Dyson wrote...

Was Wimp Hill really a draft dodger? I would have purchased his next
book, even with his insane politics, until it is admitted that he
is a 'dodger.' Frankly, if he is a 'dodger', I'd protest against him
and a total waste of humanity, and not worthy of American commerce.

A. I'm no wimp, I'm a 230 pound 6'2" strong-as-an-ox guy you'd
not want to meet on a dark street under the wrong circumstances.

B. I'm no draft dodger; that's Fred's complete fabrication.

The same Fred who can't handle a civil discussion, and who
can't face the fact that soldiers don't lower their pants and
presumably strap penlights onto their on dicks in order to
"make cavity inspections of female prisoners" in Iraq.

Although I was fortunate to escape Viet Nam, that appears to
be simply due to the San Bernardino draft board selecting the
blacks and Hispanics before the white guys. And to the poor
recruiting office at MIT, who made me cool my heels for three
hours when I was trying to enlist, before I became overcome by
thirst and hunger and left. I figured they'd want a big strong
23-year old with physics and EE degrees, but apparently not -
I wasn't even allowed to fill out a form or talk to anyone.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

John S. Dyson · May 8, 2004

In article <c7j9as0dvm@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes:

John S. Dyson wrote...

Was Wimp Hill really a draft dodger? I would have purchased his next
book, even with his insane politics, until it is admitted that he
is a 'dodger.' Frankly, if he is a 'dodger', I'd protest against him
and a total waste of humanity, and not worthy of American commerce.

A. I'm no wimp, I'm a 230 pound 6'2" strong-as-an-ox guy you'd
not want to meet on a dark street under the wrong circumstances.

B. I'm no draft dodger; that's Fred's complete fabrication.

Okay thank you for correcting that fact. The name doesn't necessarily

describe you, but no matter our discussions (and disagreements), the
draft dodger thing is a hot-button. I don't normally get mad, and
I can vehemently disagree with you and your politics, and even some
of the most stupid leftists can have good character. (Again, I am
not saying that you are a stupid leftist, but the lack of character
on the left is quite serious.)

For example, if Rummy needs 'protection', it wouldn't be from the
centrists and/or right wingers (it would be from the far leftists
and Usama-types.)

John

John Fields · May 8, 2004

On Sat, 8 May 2004 18:43:21 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

In article <gt5q90hg1qcmntov32dsv7cubvpp407l15@4ax.com>,
John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> writes:

C'mon, Dyson, is that the best you can do?

Nope -- you are just silly and profane... Leftists tend to be
like that... (Hint, Rummy needs protection from people like YOU
and Usama, for example.)

---
The "discredit by association" gambit, huh, loser? You're an amateur
with delusions of adequacy.
---

Garbage: problems happen even in the most ideal conditions. You
prove incompetency by your idealistic (unrealistic) claim. The
reason why there is a process (as it has been transpiring) is because
problems 'happen.'

Of course my claim above is true... 'Discipline' doesn't guarantee good
behavior. It is your idiocy where you seem to obviate the need for
punishment...

Since you can't deal with it you
snip it and pretend it wasn't there.

Note that most of your nonsense is off topic WRT your profanity.

---
_That_ was nonsense. What's it supposed to mean?
---

Also, you have disproved nothing that I have claimed.

Your claims are all self-evidently stupid and require no disproof.

--
John Fields

Iraqi prisoner-abuse scandal widens; Pentagon investigating

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