Iraqi prisoner-abuse scandal widens; Pentagon investigating

Bill Sloman · May 5, 2004

Paul Burridge <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message news:<n8gh90dnhv026aokr7qqvhdh4lsa7uub30@4ax.com>...

On Wed, 5 May 2004 04:53:29 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

A public execution resulting from EU corruption would be a good
and cathartic action to help to mitigate EU arrogance.

Only one?
How would you choose between Kohl, Chirac and Berlusconi to name just
three utterly corrupt leaders (or former leader in the case of Kohl)
who've been proven to be thoroughly dishonest on a truly awsome scale.

How could you forgot Blair and Thatcher? Major is is an excusable
omission - he seems to have restricted himself to adultery.

------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

John S. Dyson · May 6, 2004

In article <iori909c24ki0usp6cm4ffnsnnbbiafm6s@4ax.com>,
Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> writes:

On Wed, 05 May 2004 15:14:18 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 5 May 2004 23:32:41 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:b3gg90hrl69lf9s1pm99obd0plpblk6jmd@4ax.com...
[snip]

Do you dumb-ass French think we Americans can't read our newspapers or
see this "news" on TV? It's getting saturation coverage here. We
frown on such shenanigans by our soldiers.

Well, our european (danish) media has reported that the US government
intially told the US press to keep a lit on the story. So much for free
speach in gods own country *s*

Cheers

Klaus

And WHY did they report that FALSE statement? Euro-trash at its
finest? Our press is free to say anything it wants, PERIOD, and it
does so all the time. YOUR press is tainted by government oversight,

...Jim Thompson

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-delay0503,0,2615874.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

"CBS News delayed reporting for two weeks about U.S. soldiers' alleged
abuse of Iraqi prisoners, following a personal request from the
chairman of the joint chiefs of staff"

Both are technically wrong -- the story has been 'out there' in the

mainstream media for a few months. The pictures were the trigger for
the sensationalism.

John

John S. Dyson · May 6, 2004

In article <snsi909o1d1ksgr5a9h349ptc6kbi8jc1k@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> writes:

On Thu, 6 May 2004 00:27:11 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
Perhaps at this late hour I simply cannot follow your reasoning. Why do you
say your press is free to say anything when the Bush administration told
them to keep quiet?

Our press is certainly not government controlled. When it comes to free
speach I think we are way ahead of you. But well, cannot seem to discuss
with you - seems your are blinded by your patriotism....

Cheers

Klaus

It just came over the wire that Bush learned of the atrocities from
TV.

Looks like some general's heads will roll for that.

I actually heard that the abuses had been publically exposed (in

a press conference or two) a few months ago by military or administration
officials. The press didn't pick up on it, but I do remember such claims
in the mainstream (not the junk) media about that time.

Bush hadn't seen the pictures until they appeared on the media. He
probably didn't know the EXTENT of the problem until very recently.

It seems like a few two-stars and some military intelligence personnel
should be punished. Frankly, I wouldn't be adverse to life sentence or
death penalties for murder, and/or 10-30yrs for rape (including sodomy)
and 10yrs for being stupid...

Even being very exceptional, if a two star had ordered that behavior,
I would be happy with multiple years-term for severe abuse. If the
two-star hadn't passed info back up the chain of command, it should
be a career ender even for someone who is otherwise innocent.

This problem isn't just the 'abuses' themselves, but the misconduct
causing negative political effect against the interests of the US.
In essense, such behavior helps the truly bad guys (e.g. Usama,
makes Saddam look not quite as bad, even though he was worse, or
like how Kerry had helped the North Vietnamese.) At a certain
level IN THE FIELD, abuses like murder of prisoners or dishonest
propaganda against your country, while not under duress (e.g. Kerry)
should be eligible for capital punishment.

John

John S. Dyson · May 6, 2004

In article <409969ef$0$277$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>,
"Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund" <klauskvik@hotmail.com> writes:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:sjpi90pvb6o8ovncuhcvlq8no2n3algq9f@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 23:32:41 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:b3gg90hrl69lf9s1pm99obd0plpblk6jmd@4ax.com...
[snip]

Do you dumb-ass French think we Americans can't read our newspapers or
see this "news" on TV? It's getting saturation coverage here. We
frown on such shenanigans by our soldiers.

Well, our european (danish) media has reported that the US government
intially told the US press to keep a lit on the story. So much for free
speach in gods own country *s*

Cheers

Klaus

And WHY did they report that FALSE statement? Euro-trash at its
finest? Our press is free to say anything it wants, PERIOD, and it
does so all the time. YOUR press is tainted by government oversight,

Perhaps at this late hour I simply cannot follow your reasoning. Why do you
say your press is free to say anything when the Bush administration told
them to keep quiet?

CBS news was ASKED to keep the story quiet for a little while, given

the tactical situation in Falluja. Actually, the story was reported
(with ugly details) in the US media much earlier in the YEAR. The lies
being told are mostly related to conspiracy, not the fact that the story
has been existant for several months.

John

Klaus Vestergaard Kragelu · May 6, 2004

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:qrri90t2teasrc0h827dqik7o715bjolbj@4ax.com...

On Thu, 6 May 2004 00:27:11 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:sjpi90pvb6o8ovncuhcvlq8no2n3algq9f@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 23:32:41 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:b3gg90hrl69lf9s1pm99obd0plpblk6jmd@4ax.com...
[snip]

Do you dumb-ass French think we Americans can't read our newspapers
or
see this "news" on TV? It's getting saturation coverage here. We
frown on such shenanigans by our soldiers.

Well, our european (danish) media has reported that the US government
intially told the US press to keep a lit on the story. So much for
free
speach in gods own country *s*

Cheers

Klaus

And WHY did they report that FALSE statement? Euro-trash at its
finest? Our press is free to say anything it wants, PERIOD, and it
does so all the time. YOUR press is tainted by government oversight,

Perhaps at this late hour I simply cannot follow your reasoning. Why do
you
say your press is free to say anything when the Bush administration told
them to keep quiet?

Our press is certainly not government controlled. When it comes to free
speach I think we are way ahead of you. But well, cannot seem to discuss
with you - seems your are blinded by your patriotism....

Cheers

Klaus

(1) Dan Rather is not regarded as a reliable source of pond scum, on
this side of the pond, having been in the news "manufacturing"
business for many years ;-)

(2) From the postings it would appear that Europe knew about these
atrocities at the same time we did. Who, in Europe, was holding back
the info?

If you had seen EURO trash TV (as you so finely put it....), then you would
know that the european media reported about the atrocities for many days
telling the store/showing clips from US TV that the US citizens were kept in
the dark

Leaving the discussion - if you don't understand this..........

Cheers

Klaus

Bob Stephens · May 6, 2004

On Thu, 6 May 2004 01:14:30 +0000 (UTC), John S. Dyson wrote:

In article <snsi909o1d1ksgr5a9h349ptc6kbi8jc1k@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> writes:
On Thu, 6 May 2004 00:27:11 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
Perhaps at this late hour I simply cannot follow your reasoning. Why do you
say your press is free to say anything when the Bush administration told
them to keep quiet?

Our press is certainly not government controlled. When it comes to free
speach I think we are way ahead of you. But well, cannot seem to discuss
with you - seems your are blinded by your patriotism....

Cheers

Klaus

It just came over the wire that Bush learned of the atrocities from
TV.

Looks like some general's heads will roll for that.

I actually heard that the abuses had been publically exposed (in
a press conference or two) a few months ago by military or administration
officials. The press didn't pick up on it, but I do remember such claims
in the mainstream (not the junk) media about that time.

Bush hadn't seen the pictures until they appeared on the media. He
probably didn't know the EXTENT of the problem until very recently.

It seems like a few two-stars and some military intelligence personnel
should be punished. Frankly, I wouldn't be adverse to life sentence or
death penalties for murder, and/or 10-30yrs for rape (including sodomy)
and 10yrs for being stupid...

Even being very exceptional, if a two star had ordered that behavior,
I would be happy with multiple years-term for severe abuse. If the
two-star hadn't passed info back up the chain of command, it should
be a career ender even for someone who is otherwise innocent.

This problem isn't just the 'abuses' themselves, but the misconduct
causing negative political effect against the interests of the US.
In essense, such behavior helps the truly bad guys (e.g. Usama,
makes Saddam look not quite as bad, even though he was worse, or
like how Kerry had helped the North Vietnamese.) At a certain
level IN THE FIELD, abuses like murder of prisoners or dishonest
propaganda against your country, while not under duress (e.g. Kerry)
should be eligible for capital punishment.

John

One slant that I haven't heard voiced is that these pictures are
disturbingly gay. Is this the natural follow on to the military's "don't
ask don't tell" policies? I think there would have been far less hoopla if
they had just kicked the shit out of them.

Bob
--
"Just machines that make big decisions
programmed by fellas with compassion and vision."
-D. Fagen
(remove yomama)

Andre · May 6, 2004

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:c7c3jd$ut3$2@news.iquest.net...

In article <iori909c24ki0usp6cm4ffnsnnbbiafm6s@4ax.com>,
Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> writes:
On Wed, 05 May 2004 15:14:18 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 5 May 2004 23:32:41 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:b3gg90hrl69lf9s1pm99obd0plpblk6jmd@4ax.com...
[snip]

Do you dumb-ass French think we Americans can't read our newspapers
or
see this "news" on TV? It's getting saturation coverage here. We
frown on such shenanigans by our soldiers.

Well, our european (danish) media has reported that the US government
intially told the US press to keep a lit on the story. So much for free
speach in gods own country *s*

Cheers

Klaus

And WHY did they report that FALSE statement? Euro-trash at its
finest? Our press is free to say anything it wants, PERIOD, and it
does so all the time. YOUR press is tainted by government oversight,

...Jim Thompson

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-delay0503,0,2615874.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

"CBS News delayed reporting for two weeks about U.S. soldiers' alleged
abuse of Iraqi prisoners, following a personal request from the
chairman of the joint chiefs of staff"

Both are technically wrong -- the story has been 'out there' in the
mainstream media for a few months. The pictures were the trigger for
the sensationalism.

John

It's even worst then, why didn't somebody react on this, or do we have to
suppose you found this absolutly normal ?

Paul Burridge · May 6, 2004

On 5 May 2004 17:32:15 -0700, bill.sloman@ieee.org (Bill Sloman)
wrote:

Paul Burridge <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote in message news:<n8gh90dnhv026aokr7qqvhdh4lsa7uub30@4ax.com>...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 04:53:29 +0000 (UTC), toor@iquest.net (John S.
Dyson) wrote:

A public execution resulting from EU corruption would be a good
and cathartic action to help to mitigate EU arrogance.

Only one?
How would you choose between Kohl, Chirac and Berlusconi to name just
three utterly corrupt leaders (or former leader in the case of Kohl)
who've been proven to be thoroughly dishonest on a truly awsome scale.

How could you forgot Blair and Thatcher? Major is is an excusable
omission - he seems to have restricted himself to adultery.

I was talking of *financial* corruption, Bill. If you have some dirt
on Bliar and the Iron Bitch then feel free to dish it!
--

The BBC: licenced at public expense to spread lies.

John S. Dyson · May 6, 2004

In article <c7dh4b$pno$1@bemesrrs011.be.eds.com>,
"Andre" <NOTMe@ailleur.com> writes:

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:c7c3jd$ut3$2@news.iquest.net...
In article <iori909c24ki0usp6cm4ffnsnnbbiafm6s@4ax.com>,
Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> writes:
On Wed, 05 May 2004 15:14:18 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 5 May 2004 23:32:41 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:b3gg90hrl69lf9s1pm99obd0plpblk6jmd@4ax.com...
[snip]

Do you dumb-ass French think we Americans can't read our newspapers
or
see this "news" on TV? It's getting saturation coverage here. We
frown on such shenanigans by our soldiers.

Well, our european (danish) media has reported that the US government
intially told the US press to keep a lit on the story. So much for free
speach in gods own country *s*

Cheers

Klaus

And WHY did they report that FALSE statement? Euro-trash at its
finest? Our press is free to say anything it wants, PERIOD, and it
does so all the time. YOUR press is tainted by government oversight,

...Jim Thompson

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-delay0503,0,2615874.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

"CBS News delayed reporting for two weeks about U.S. soldiers' alleged
abuse of Iraqi prisoners, following a personal request from the
chairman of the joint chiefs of staff"

Both are technically wrong -- the story has been 'out there' in the
mainstream media for a few months. The pictures were the trigger for
the sensationalism.

John

It's even worst then, why didn't somebody react on this, or do we have to
suppose you found this absolutly normal ?

Why didn't the French media pick up on it, considering their extremist

anti-US bias? Answer: the pictures were the trigger.

John

John S. Dyson · May 6, 2004

In article <409a156b$0$246$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.dk>,
"Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund" <klauskvik@hotmail.com> writes:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:qrri90t2teasrc0h827dqik7o715bjolbj@4ax.com...
On Thu, 6 May 2004 00:27:11 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:sjpi90pvb6o8ovncuhcvlq8no2n3algq9f@4ax.com...
On Wed, 5 May 2004 23:32:41 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:b3gg90hrl69lf9s1pm99obd0plpblk6jmd@4ax.com...
[snip]

Do you dumb-ass French think we Americans can't read our newspapers
or
see this "news" on TV? It's getting saturation coverage here. We
frown on such shenanigans by our soldiers.

Well, our european (danish) media has reported that the US government
intially told the US press to keep a lit on the story. So much for
free
speach in gods own country *s*

Cheers

Klaus

And WHY did they report that FALSE statement? Euro-trash at its
finest? Our press is free to say anything it wants, PERIOD, and it
does so all the time. YOUR press is tainted by government oversight,

Perhaps at this late hour I simply cannot follow your reasoning. Why do
you
say your press is free to say anything when the Bush administration told
them to keep quiet?

Our press is certainly not government controlled. When it comes to free
speach I think we are way ahead of you. But well, cannot seem to discuss
with you - seems your are blinded by your patriotism....

Cheers

Klaus

(1) Dan Rather is not regarded as a reliable source of pond scum, on
this side of the pond, having been in the news "manufacturing"
business for many years ;-)

(2) From the postings it would appear that Europe knew about these
atrocities at the same time we did. Who, in Europe, was holding back
the info?

If you had seen EURO trash TV (as you so finely put it....), then you would
know that the european media reported about the atrocities for many days
telling the store/showing clips from US TV that the US citizens were kept in
the dark

Leaving the discussion - if you don't understand this..........

I am glad that you are leaving the discussion, because it has been in

the US media for at least several months... The difference has been
the psuedo-gay pictures. Note that there is little evidence of 'torture'
per se in the pictures. (It could be described as 'wrong', but not
'torture.') I have seen no pictures of electrocutions (Saddmist) or
disemboweling (more of a European thing.)

John

Winfield Hill · May 6, 2004

John S. Dyson wrote...

Note that there is little evidence of 'torture' per se in
the pictures. (It could be described as 'wrong', but not
'torture.') I have seen no pictures of electrocutions
(Saddmist) or disemboweling (more of a European thing.)

What about the rape pictures?

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

John S. Dyson · May 6, 2004

In article <c7e23v01v63@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes:

John S. Dyson wrote...

Note that there is little evidence of 'torture' per se in
the pictures. (It could be described as 'wrong', but not
'torture.') I have seen no pictures of electrocutions
(Saddmist) or disemboweling (more of a European thing.)

What about the rape pictures?

If there were actual rapes and/or pictures of actual rapes, then

there is no excuse (and appropriate punishment is in order.) However,
frankly, I didn't look closely at the pictures, or analyze them
carefully -- junk like that (and even fantasy junk from the
media) severely irritates and repulses me enough that I accept the
description from other, trustworthy people.

In this case, I strongly want the direct chain of command to
be reviewed and appropriately ejudicated. My initial evaluation
is that we had probably overly downsized the military, and
left inadequate training and command/control capabilities
and competency. The initial downsizing in the very late 1980s
and the first year or two of the 1990s was probably a very good
thing, but irresponsibly playing
to special political interests (eviscerating the intelligence
community and overly downsizing the basic force of the military)
was quite bad. The overly downsized military
is culpable for its actions, but the intelligence community
(and the rent-a-spooks) are the root cause and encouragement
for the abuse. As such, there is an obvious loss of competency
and responsibility in the spook world that could partially be
traced back to aggressive downsizing (over-retiring the
grey-hairs) during the 1990s.

This doesn't excuse the abuses, but we need to understand where
the problems have manifest in the military and intelligence
communities. It is also clear that we need to carefully evaluate
the legal status of the 'rent-a-spooks'... In war zones and
areas where the military is involved, there might need to be
some formal training (and even creation of standards) that
are more closely associated with the military UCMJ.

Perhaps we forget that our high-tech and contractor stuff is more
a FORCE MULTIPLIER and not a replacement for the real military.
If our real military people are ineffective (or inadequate), then
a mulitplier will either be less effective or do more of the wrong
thing.

John

Frank Bemelman · May 6, 2004

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> schreef in bericht
news:c7e6mj$1i11$1@news.iquest.net...

In article <c7e23v01v63@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes:
John S. Dyson wrote...

Note that there is little evidence of 'torture' per se in
the pictures. (It could be described as 'wrong', but not
'torture.') I have seen no pictures of electrocutions
(Saddmist) or disemboweling (more of a European thing.)

What about the rape pictures?

If there were actual rapes and/or pictures of actual rapes, then
there is no excuse (and appropriate punishment is in order.) However,
frankly, I didn't look closely at the pictures, or analyze them
carefully -- junk like that (and even fantasy junk from the
media) severely irritates and repulses me enough that I accept the
description from other, trustworthy people.

In this case, I strongly want the direct chain of command to
be reviewed and appropriately ejudicated. My initial evaluation
is that we had probably overly downsized the military, and
left inadequate training and command/control capabilities
and competency. The initial downsizing in the very late 1980s
and the first year or two of the 1990s was probably a very good
thing, but irresponsibly playing
to special political interests (eviscerating the intelligence
community and overly downsizing the basic force of the military)
was quite bad. The overly downsized military
is culpable for its actions, but the intelligence community
(and the rent-a-spooks) are the root cause and encouragement
for the abuse. As such, there is an obvious loss of competency
and responsibility in the spook world that could partially be
traced back to aggressive downsizing (over-retiring the
grey-hairs) during the 1990s.

This doesn't excuse the abuses, but we need to understand where
the problems have manifest in the military and intelligence
communities. It is also clear that we need to carefully evaluate
the legal status of the 'rent-a-spooks'... In war zones and
areas where the military is involved, there might need to be
some formal training (and even creation of standards) that
are more closely associated with the military UCMJ.

Perhaps we forget that our high-tech and contractor stuff is more
a FORCE MULTIPLIER and not a replacement for the real military.
If our real military people are ineffective (or inadequate), then
a mulitplier will either be less effective or do more of the wrong
thing.

You are not suggesting that with such an overly inadequate military,
it may not have been such a great idea to 'liberate' a country, just
because it was believed to be a vault of WMD's ? Another small step
and you can join the club of Saddam lovers.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

Stefan Heinzmann · May 6, 2004

John S. Dyson wrote:

In article <c7e23v01v63@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes:

John S. Dyson wrote...

Note that there is little evidence of 'torture' per se in
the pictures. (It could be described as 'wrong', but not
'torture.') I have seen no pictures of electrocutions
(Saddmist) or disemboweling (more of a European thing.)

As to what constitutes torture and what doesn't, I found this article
quite interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1210574,00.html

It is from a "leftist" paper, though, so you might want to put on your
mental rubber gloves before clicking ;-)

What about the rape pictures?

My initial evaluation
is that we had probably overly downsized the military, and
left inadequate training and command/control capabilities
and competency.

You evaluate very quickly. Have you offered your services to the
government yet?

--
Cheers
Stefan

Charles Edmondson · May 6, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Thu, 6 May 2004 00:27:11 +0200, "Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund"
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

Perhaps at this late hour I simply cannot follow your reasoning. Why do you
say your press is free to say anything when the Bush administration told
them to keep quiet?

Our press is certainly not government controlled. When it comes to free
speach I think we are way ahead of you. But well, cannot seem to discuss
with you - seems your are blinded by your patriotism....

Cheers

Klaus

It just came over the wire that Bush learned of the atrocities from
TV.

Looks like some general's heads will roll for that.

...Jim Thompson
Saw in at least one place, that the reporters who uncovered this found

out just as all the shiite revolts kicked up, and the general 'asked'
(not ordered) that they hold off a bit to let things die down a little...
--
Charlie
--
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems

Jim Thompson · May 6, 2004

On 6 May 2004 12:02:23 -0700, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

John S. Dyson wrote...

Note that there is little evidence of 'torture' per se in
the pictures. (It could be described as 'wrong', but not
'torture.') I have seen no pictures of electrocutions
(Saddmist) or disemboweling (more of a European thing.)

What about the rape pictures?

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

These acts were certainly ugly events and should be punished fully.

At the same time I certainly feel no need for Bush to say anything
other than that these acts are not condoned by the citizens of the
United States and will be punished accordingly.

However, we should make NO apologies.

We should make it clear that, given a choice between being liked and
being feared, we will always choose FEARED.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · May 6, 2004

On Thu, 06 May 2004 22:57:03 +0200, Stefan Heinzmann
<stefan_heinzmann@yahoo.com> wrote:

[snip]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1210574,00.html

[snip]

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Winfield Hill · May 6, 2004

John S. Dyson wrote...

Winfield Hill writes:
John S. Dyson wrote...

Note that there is little evidence of 'torture' per se in
the pictures. (It could be described as 'wrong', but not
'torture.') I have seen no pictures of electrocutions
(Saddmist) or disemboweling (more of a European thing.)

What about the rape pictures?

If there were actual rapes and/or pictures of actual rapes, then
there is no excuse (and appropriate punishment is in order.)
However, frankly, I didn't look closely at the pictures...

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

I didn't more than glance either, it was extremely disturbing.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

Winfield Hill · May 6, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote...

However, we should make NO apologies.

We should make it clear that, given a choice between being
liked and being feared, we will always choose FEARED.

The problem is, with these rape photos, which are widely
distributed, we won't be so much feared, as loathed and
despised. Somehow we need to put this right, find all the
men who did it and fully and publically prosecute. And
apologize, of course, what's the matter with you Thompson?

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

Stefan Heinzmann · May 6, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

We should make it clear that, given a choice between being liked and
being feared, we will always choose FEARED.

Being liked is hard to achieve and expensive. Being feared is risky and
also expensive. I'd choose being respected.

--
Cheers
Stefan

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