In Europe: The great CFL rip-off.

[keithr]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"keithr" <keith@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a9cefde$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"F Murtz" <haggisz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a9c7ad9$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"ian field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B%Vmm.26315$6W1.14456@newsfe05.ams2...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/
**The only accurate point in that beat-up was the one about dimmers.
Sheesh! What a load of complete bollocks. My oldest CFLs are in my
bathrooms. Not only do they STILL deliver more light than the
incandescents they replaced (measured with a light meter and a spare
incandescent), they use less than 30% of the energy, haven't had to be
replaced (previous lamps lasted around 6 months) and have similar
colour balance. My only complaint is the slow (about 45 second) warm up
time in the middle of Winter.

Talk about a storm in a teacup. My only CFL failure was when a possum
sat on a naked lamp in the garage. I now have them in every fitting
that will take them.

Having said all that, I agree that CFLs are far from perfect. LEDs,
when they sort out the high power problems, should adress those issues
nicely.


A lot won't fit in oyster fittings, if they do they overheat in non
vented oyster fittings
**Then you have several choices:

* Stockpile a handful of incandescents.
* Choose another fitting.
* Buy one of the newer halogens, which the gummint seems to think are OK.

One of my light fittings won't take a CFL either. I don't use it.

I also have a bunch of incredibly stupid, wasteful 50 Watt halogen
downlights. I rarely use them too. Dumbest light fitting ever designed.
Well, it's OK for lighting a specific workspace (like the kitchen sink),
but that's about it. How on Earth designers thought they'd be a good idea
for space lighting is beyond belief.
Our main lighting is 3 50 watt halogens in the living room. Ordinary
globes and CFLs won't work because of a very high ceiling (3.5 metres on
one side), the light from the halogens focussed into the area where we sit
in the evening. The lights are on from about 6pm in the winter 8pm in the
summer to about 11pm, ie at worst 750watt hours per day. Using CFLs would
save at most 500watt hours per day, probably less. If LEDs ever become
available at reasonable cost, I'll consider them, but CFLs just don't cut
it and the savings are quite minor.

Now, when the hot water system blew up 6 months back, I replaced it with a
heat pump system. After the government rebates it cost less than a
conventional electric system. The 2 electric bills that I have had since
it was installed showed a savings of 7.5 and 5.0 Kw hours per day. Now
that is real savings both in my pocket and for the environment.

**I've done some back-of-the-napkin calcs on the hot water system thing and
if I swap my off-peak system out, I'll lose big time. I don't have my bill
close to hand, but I usually pay around $20.00/quarter for hot water.


You must be a pom and shower once a quarter

 

[ian field]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7g3dukF2ngm6pU1@mid.individual.net...

"Trevor Wilson

A lot won't fit in oyster fittings, if they do they overheat in non
vented oyster fittings

**Then you have several choices:

* Stockpile a handful of incandescents.


** Barley any of them are now left on sale - particularly scare are the
BC fiting kind.


* Buy one of the newer halogens, which the gummint seems to think are OK.


** Will be banned from sale within 2 years.


One of my light fittings won't take a CFL either. I don't use it.


** Shame when the whole damn place is full of such fittings.


I also have a bunch of incredibly stupid, wasteful 50 Watt halogen
downlights. I rarely use them too. Dumbest light fitting ever designed.
Well, it's OK for lighting a specific workspace (like the kitchen sink),
but that's about it. How on Earth designers thought they'd be a good idea
for space lighting is beyond belief.


** Folk are still installing them now

- despite the fact they are ear marked to be banned within a very few
years.

Everything about the way CFLs are being made compulsory is a scam and a
scandal.

May all the lunatic greenies burn in hell for it.

String the bastards up slowly with piano wire.

 

[ian field]

"keithr" <keith@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a9cf1b0$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

David L. Jones wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"ian field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B%Vmm.26315$6W1.14456@newsfe05.ams2...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/
Talk about a storm in a teacup.

Exactly.

I now have them in every fitting that will take them.

Same here.

Having said all that, I agree that CFLs are far from perfect. LEDs, when
they sort out the high power problems, should adress those
issues nicely.

Yep.
Until then I like my CFL's. Not perfect, but more than good enough for me
to replace every light in my house with them.

Dave.

If you like them, fine, but for many lights, eg closets, bathrooms etc,
they just aren't used enough to make any real savings.

They're not saving me much - my living room has 2 light fittings and the
CFLs are so poor that I've had to fit both with 2 way adapters for a total
of 4 CFLs to get adequate light over my desk.

One important point the greenie weenies failed to factor in, is a much
greater number of people leave at least one CFL on over night because the
cost is less, I leave the kitchen on 24/7 and I know many people who leave
the kitchen and stairway and/or the loo on overnight.

 

[geoff]

keithr wrote:

You must be a pom and shower once a quarter

Whether he needs to or not !

geoff

 

[geoff]

Sylvia Else wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"ian field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B%Vmm.26315$6W1.14456@newsfe05.ams2...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

**The only accurate point in that beat-up was the one about dimmers.
Sheesh! What a load of complete bollocks. My oldest CFLs are in my
bathrooms. Not only do they STILL deliver more light than the
incandescents they replaced (measured with a light meter and a spare
incandescent), they use less than 30% of the energy, haven't had to
be replaced (previous lamps lasted around 6 months) and have similar
colour balance. My only complaint is the slow (about 45 second) warm
up time in the middle of Winter.

The issue is one of claimed equivalence. Clearly there's no difficulty
in getting a CFL that's as bright as a given incandescent. But the
equivalence claims on the boxes leave a lot to be desired, and do
rather overstate the light output.

Sylvia.

I like the bit that suggets that the CFLs will last 2, 3, 4,5 years.
Haven't had one last more than 8 months yet. BAse gets hot, smells very
plasticy, and die.

Any how many supermarket receipts for bulbs does one keep ?

Sylvania

(Geoff , actually).

 

[Sylvia Else]

geoff wrote:

I like the bit that suggets that the CFLs will last 2, 3, 4,5 years.
Haven't had one last more than 8 months yet. BAse gets hot, smells very
plasticy, and die.

Some Philips CLFs I have quote a 6000 hour life, and claim that's
equivalent to 6 incandescents. However, some, albeit "long life"
incandescents I have quote a 2500 hour life. Philips are presumably
comparing with a very cheap incandescent.

6000 hour is about 4 years at 4 hours per day.

If your CFLs are only lasting 8 months at a similar level of usage, then
it's time to start keeping note, and getting refunds.

Any how many supermarket receipts for bulbs does one keep ?

Time to start?

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"geoff" <geoff@nospam-paf.co.nz> wrote in message
news:Mp6dnQ32z_mQIgDXnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...

Sylvia Else wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"ian field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B%Vmm.26315$6W1.14456@newsfe05.ams2...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/

**The only accurate point in that beat-up was the one about dimmers.
Sheesh! What a load of complete bollocks. My oldest CFLs are in my
bathrooms. Not only do they STILL deliver more light than the
incandescents they replaced (measured with a light meter and a spare
incandescent), they use less than 30% of the energy, haven't had to
be replaced (previous lamps lasted around 6 months) and have similar
colour balance. My only complaint is the slow (about 45 second) warm
up time in the middle of Winter.

The issue is one of claimed equivalence. Clearly there's no difficulty
in getting a CFL that's as bright as a given incandescent. But the
equivalence claims on the boxes leave a lot to be desired, and do
rather overstate the light output.

Sylvia.

I like the bit that suggets that the CFLs will last 2, 3, 4,5 years.
Haven't had one last more than 8 months yet. BAse gets hot, smells very
plasticy, and die.

**Stop buying crap CFLs. My only failure has been when a possum sat/fell on
one. I only buy decent quality (Philips branded) ones though.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"keithr" <keith@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a9d2122$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"keithr" <keith@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a9cefde$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"F Murtz" <haggisz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a9c7ad9$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"ian field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B%Vmm.26315$6W1.14456@newsfe05.ams2...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/
**The only accurate point in that beat-up was the one about dimmers.
Sheesh! What a load of complete bollocks. My oldest CFLs are in my
bathrooms. Not only do they STILL deliver more light than the
incandescents they replaced (measured with a light meter and a spare
incandescent), they use less than 30% of the energy, haven't had to
be replaced (previous lamps lasted around 6 months) and have similar
colour balance. My only complaint is the slow (about 45 second) warm
up time in the middle of Winter.

Talk about a storm in a teacup. My only CFL failure was when a possum
sat on a naked lamp in the garage. I now have them in every fitting
that will take them.

Having said all that, I agree that CFLs are far from perfect. LEDs,
when they sort out the high power problems, should adress those
issues nicely.


A lot won't fit in oyster fittings, if they do they overheat in non
vented oyster fittings
**Then you have several choices:

* Stockpile a handful of incandescents.
* Choose another fitting.
* Buy one of the newer halogens, which the gummint seems to think are
OK.

One of my light fittings won't take a CFL either. I don't use it.

I also have a bunch of incredibly stupid, wasteful 50 Watt halogen
downlights. I rarely use them too. Dumbest light fitting ever designed.
Well, it's OK for lighting a specific workspace (like the kitchen
sink), but that's about it. How on Earth designers thought they'd be a
good idea for space lighting is beyond belief.
Our main lighting is 3 50 watt halogens in the living room. Ordinary
globes and CFLs won't work because of a very high ceiling (3.5 metres on
one side), the light from the halogens focussed into the area where we
sit in the evening. The lights are on from about 6pm in the winter 8pm
in the summer to about 11pm, ie at worst 750watt hours per day. Using
CFLs would save at most 500watt hours per day, probably less. If LEDs
ever become available at reasonable cost, I'll consider them, but CFLs
just don't cut it and the savings are quite minor.

Now, when the hot water system blew up 6 months back, I replaced it with
a heat pump system. After the government rebates it cost less than a
conventional electric system. The 2 electric bills that I have had since
it was installed showed a savings of 7.5 and 5.0 Kw hours per day. Now
that is real savings both in my pocket and for the environment.

**I've done some back-of-the-napkin calcs on the hot water system thing
and if I swap my off-peak system out, I'll lose big time. I don't have my
bill close to hand, but I usually pay around $20.00/quarter for hot
water.


You must be a pom and shower once a quarter

**Nah. Just reasonably careful with all water usage. Quick showers, wash
clothes in cold water, etc. Just common-sense.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[keithr]

On 2/09/2009 2:43 AM, ian field wrote:

"keithr"<keith@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a9cf1b0$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
David L. Jones wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"ian field"<gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B%Vmm.26315$6W1.14456@newsfe05.ams2...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/
Talk about a storm in a teacup.

Exactly.

I now have them in every fitting that will take them.

Same here.

Having said all that, I agree that CFLs are far from perfect. LEDs, when
they sort out the high power problems, should adress those
issues nicely.

Yep.
Until then I like my CFL's. Not perfect, but more than good enough for me
to replace every light in my house with them.

Dave.

If you like them, fine, but for many lights, eg closets, bathrooms etc,
they just aren't used enough to make any real savings.

They're not saving me much - my living room has 2 light fittings and the
CFLs are so poor that I've had to fit both with 2 way adapters for a total
of 4 CFLs to get adequate light over my desk.

One important point the greenie weenies failed to factor in, is a much
greater number of people leave at least one CFL on over night because the
cost is less, I leave the kitchen on 24/7 and I know many people who leave
the kitchen and stairway and/or the loo on overnight.


CFLs are an excellent example of tokenism. Governments pushing their use

love them because they can claim to be doing something for the
environment at zero cost.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"keithr" <keithr@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a9dd356$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

On 2/09/2009 2:43 AM, ian field wrote:
"keithr"<keith@nowhere.com.au> wrote in message
news:4a9cf1b0$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
David L. Jones wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"ian field"<gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:B%Vmm.26315$6W1.14456@newsfe05.ams2...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/31/euro-chiefs-dim-view-of-eco-bulbs-115875-21636908/
Talk about a storm in a teacup.

Exactly.

I now have them in every fitting that will take them.

Same here.

Having said all that, I agree that CFLs are far from perfect. LEDs,
when
they sort out the high power problems, should adress those
issues nicely.

Yep.
Until then I like my CFL's. Not perfect, but more than good enough for
me
to replace every light in my house with them.

Dave.

If you like them, fine, but for many lights, eg closets, bathrooms etc,
they just aren't used enough to make any real savings.

They're not saving me much - my living room has 2 light fittings and the
CFLs are so poor that I've had to fit both with 2 way adapters for a
total
of 4 CFLs to get adequate light over my desk.

One important point the greenie weenies failed to factor in, is a much
greater number of people leave at least one CFL on over night because the
cost is less, I leave the kitchen on 24/7 and I know many people who
leave
the kitchen and stairway and/or the loo on overnight.


CFLs are an excellent example of tokenism. Governments pushing their use
love them because they can claim to be doing something for the environment
at zero cost.

**Not quite. I recall reading that domestic lighting in the UK accounts for
around 20% of electricity consumption. CFLs could make quite a dent in that
figure. Dunno what the figure in Australia, but it's probably not far off.
Having said all that, here are a bunch of random thoughts I've had that
could impact on power consumption more readily:

* Raise the cost of electricity. I mean REALLY raise the cost. Hit people in
the hip pocket and they will change their wasteful ways.
* Mandate that ALL air conditioners meet certain energy efficiency targets.
Force importers to refund purchasers for devices that fail to meet
advertised standards (most of the bargain basement ones don't).
* Tax pool owners (I own a pool). Pools consume stupid amounts of power.
* Stop buggerising around by offering credits to polluters. They know the
lay of the land.
* Mandate that office buildings shut off lighting when not required.
* Dump all those V8 Comm-cars and switch to small Diesels or hybrids.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Sylvia Else]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

* Stop buggerising around by offering credits to polluters. They know the
lay of the land.

If by that you mean things like the coal fired power stations, the
problem is that if you start changing the rules affecting the financial
viability of long term infrastructure investments, then people will stop
investing, because the risk will be too high that you'll change the
rules again later.

Consequently, if you want to make a major change to the rules, you have
to have some way of grandfathering the the existing investments, or
compensating their investors.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Bullshit Artist Wilson"

**Not quite. I recall reading that domestic lighting in the UK accounts
for around 20% of electricity consumption.

** That should be 20% of DOMESTIC electricity consumption !!

A tiny percentage of the total electricity consumption for the country.

Plus it is all nearly used at night time, when it would often go to waste
otherwise.

CFLs could make quite a dent in that figure.

** TW is blowing it out his arse - as usual.

Using CFLs domestically has no impact on the use of fossil fuels .



....... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Trevor Bullshit Artist Wilson"

**Not quite. I recall reading that domestic lighting in the UK accounts
for around 20% of electricity consumption.

** That should be 20% of DOMESTIC electricity consumption !!

A tiny percentage of the total electricity consumption for the country.

Plus it is all nearly used at night time, when it would often go to waste
otherwise.

How can electricity go to waste? The amount generated equals the amount
consumed. Always.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone Else"

Phil Allison wrote:
"Trevor Bullshit Artist Wilson"

**Not quite. I recall reading that domestic lighting in the UK accounts
for around 20% of electricity consumption.

** That should be 20% of DOMESTIC electricity consumption !!

A tiny percentage of the total electricity consumption for the country.

Plus it is all nearly used at night time, when it would often go to
waste otherwise.

How can electricity go to waste?

** Being used up in heating long power cables is one.

Severe losses in using hydro power as a peak load system is another.

Having alternators spinning with little or no load is a third.

Fossil fuel is what gets wasted -

you asinine autistic bitch.




..... Phil

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

ian field wrote:

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7g3dukF2ngm6pU1@mid.individual.net...

"Trevor Wilson

A lot won't fit in oyster fittings, if they do they overheat in non
vented oyster fittings

**Then you have several choices:

* Stockpile a handful of incandescents.


** Barley any of them are now left on sale - particularly scare are the
BC fiting kind.


* Buy one of the newer halogens, which the gummint seems to think are OK.


** Will be banned from sale within 2 years.


One of my light fittings won't take a CFL either. I don't use it.


** Shame when the whole damn place is full of such fittings.


I also have a bunch of incredibly stupid, wasteful 50 Watt halogen
downlights. I rarely use them too. Dumbest light fitting ever designed.
Well, it's OK for lighting a specific workspace (like the kitchen sink),
but that's about it. How on Earth designers thought they'd be a good idea
for space lighting is beyond belief.


** Folk are still installing them now

- despite the fact they are ear marked to be banned within a very few
years.

Everything about the way CFLs are being made compulsory is a scam and a
scandal.

May all the lunatic greenies burn in hell for it.

String the bastards up slowly with piano wire.

Use Concertina wire and be done with it.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Sylvia Else]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Stupider than Anyone Else"
Phil Allison wrote:
"Trevor Bullshit Artist Wilson"

**Not quite. I recall reading that domestic lighting in the UK accounts
for around 20% of electricity consumption.
** That should be 20% of DOMESTIC electricity consumption !!

A tiny percentage of the total electricity consumption for the country.

Plus it is all nearly used at night time, when it would often go to
waste otherwise.
How can electricity go to waste?


** Being used up in heating long power cables is one.

Most significant at times of high load - not overnight, which is when
you said it was going to waste. In any case, if the power isn't being
delivered to the consumer, then the current isn't heating up the power
cables either.

Severe losses in using hydro power as a peak load system is another.

I.e. not at night. Anyway, what are these severe losses? One may
question the idea of building a hydro system as a peaking station, but
that's a financial loss, not electricity going to waste.

Having alternators spinning with little or no load is a third.

How is that electricity going to waste?

Fossil fuel is what gets wasted -

How is the fuel wasted? Do you imagine that a fossil fuel power
generator's fuel consumption is independent of its output?

you asinine autistic bitch.

I don't see the relevance of that.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0019abd3$0$24647$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...

Trevor Wilson wrote:

* Stop buggerising around by offering credits to polluters. They know the
lay of the land.

If by that you mean things like the coal fired power stations, the problem
is that if you start changing the rules affecting the financial viability
of long term infrastructure investments, then people will stop investing,
because the risk will be too high that you'll change the rules again
later.

**We have known for a long time that coal fired power stations are an
appalling way to generate electricity. There is no need to molly-coddle
them. There is no need to change the rules. A carbon tax should be applied
equally to all. That includes coal fired generators.

Consequently, if you want to make a major change to the rules, you have to
have some way of grandfathering the the existing investments, or
compensating their investors.

**Bollocks. We can all read. We all know the problems. If greedy investors
want to make a Dollar by polluting then let them suffer the consequences.
They are no different to the tobacco industry.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:7g65j8F2mifkkU1@mid.individual.net...

"Trevor Bullshit Artist Wilson"


**Not quite. I recall reading that domestic lighting in the UK accounts
for around 20% of electricity consumption.

** That should be 20% of DOMESTIC electricity consumption !!

**Quite correct. Thanks for the correction.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

 

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Fuckwit Wilson"

**We have known for a long time that coal fired power stations are an
appalling way to generate electricity.

** Only in the demented minds of insane greenies.

So that is the group TW's royal use of "We" refers to.

What an UTTER FUCKWIT !!




..... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:0019abd3$0$24647$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

* Stop buggerising around by offering credits to polluters. They know the
lay of the land.
If by that you mean things like the coal fired power stations, the problem
is that if you start changing the rules affecting the financial viability
of long term infrastructure investments, then people will stop investing,
because the risk will be too high that you'll change the rules again
later.

**We have known for a long time that coal fired power stations are an
appalling way to generate electricity. There is no need to molly-coddle
them. There is no need to change the rules. A carbon tax should be applied
equally to all. That includes coal fired generators.

These things have a forty or fifty year life. While there have been
mutterings about global warming for quite a while, it only became
mainstream in the last decade or so. Most of the existing coal fired
power stations were built before anyone was suggesting undermining their
financial basis.

We've all gained from the cheap electricity they've provided. It's a bit
late to pick up our ball and go home.

Consequently, if you want to make a major change to the rules, you have to
have some way of grandfathering the the existing investments, or
compensating their investors.

**Bollocks. We can all read. We all know the problems. If greedy investors
want to make a Dollar by polluting then let them suffer the consequences.
They are no different to the tobacco industry.

And the people who invest in new base-load gas powered generators, or
even more expensive solar/wind projects? Can they expect to have their
financial modelling undermined in another ten years, perhaps when the
Government finally realised that we have to go nuclear?

Sylvia.