Help with Laplace Transform for PLL VCO, Kvco?????

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:35:53 -0000, "Pellucid"
<dave@jolly27.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

"Dr. Slick" <radio913@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1d15af91.0403222254.16bb0a3f@posting.google.com...
"Terry Given" <the_domes@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:<VdN7c.13589$rw6.253262@news.xtra.co.nz>...

However, perhaps if you use a non-zero frequency for the tuning
voltage (like a sine wave of a non-zero frequency), then the change in
phi_out for every 1 rad of phi_in will NOT be infinite anymore.


I believe this concurs with what you have written as well, eh
Terry

Slick

How would the above relate to the fact that an FM modulated VCO can be
modulated by modulating the control loop?
Click to expand...
The only difference between FM and Phase Modulation is the
pre-emphasis.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and cowards.
WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:cia660tqkqphon5lqgvlnnp8fptlp8oij2@4ax.com...
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:35:53 -0000, "Pellucid"
dave@jolly27.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

"Dr. Slick" <radio913@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1d15af91.0403222254.16bb0a3f@posting.google.com...
"Terry Given" <the_domes@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:<VdN7c.13589$rw6.253262@news.xtra.co.nz>...

However, perhaps if you use a non-zero frequency for the tuning
voltage (like a sine wave of a non-zero frequency), then the change in
phi_out for every 1 rad of phi_in will NOT be infinite anymore.


I believe this concurs with what you have written as well, eh
Terry

Slick

How would the above relate to the fact that an FM modulated VCO can be
modulated by modulating the control loop?


The only difference between FM and Phase Modulation is the
pre-emphasis.

...Jim Thompson
--
Yes, as I understand it, phase mod increases with the frequencyof
Click to expand...
modulation (usefully providing pre-emphasis), whereas frequency modulation
does not.
 
Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.

Walter.

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:3o0260t4rd4nr2i49nmqo1l7trdf2ojf45@4ax.com...
On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 03:16:50 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:9mc16017a7d4crmdb1tm5hcf6m4nppmc9u@4ax.com...

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and yellow-
bellies. WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!

Reminds me of the charge of the Light Brigade. What a gutsy bunch of
idiots! They were all dead when it was over. What a waste.


Sorry, but we're not Brits (nor Canucks ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and yellow-
bellies. WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
Click to expand...
 
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:33 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
<walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:

Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.

Walter.

[snip]
Click to expand...

Another Canuck rants. Must be terribly depressing to be so impotent
;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and cowards.
WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
 
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:47:52 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:33 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:


Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.


No. There are an infinite number of available mistakes, and it's fun
to try new ones.

John
Click to expand...
I'm way ahead... I guarantee that I've made more (design) mistakes
than *anyone* here! But that's how you learn ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and cowards.
WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote (in <2i8960lttfc5qplrppo13sco8dhlrvps89@
4ax.com>) about 'Help with Laplace Transform for PLL VCO, Kvco?????', on
Fri, 26 Mar 2004:
Another Canuck rants. Must be terribly depressing to be so impotent
;-)
Click to expand...
Being impotent doesn't make you wrong. It's a warning about
hubris/chutzpah.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <7499605usvggco8jr5fv3ua88e0l73jfbh@
4ax.com>) about 'Help with Laplace Transform for PLL VCO, Kvco?????', on
Fri, 26 Mar 2004:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:33 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:


Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.


No. There are an infinite number of available mistakes, and it's fun
to try new ones.

Indeed. It's repeating the old ones that indicates a failure to profit
Click to expand...
by past experience.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
 
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 22:07:38 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote (in <2i8960lttfc5qplrppo13sco8dhlrvps89@
4ax.com>) about 'Help with Laplace Transform for PLL VCO, Kvco?????', on
Fri, 26 Mar 2004:
Another Canuck rants. Must be terribly depressing to be so impotent
;-)

Being impotent doesn't make you wrong. It's a warning about
hubris/chutzpah.
Click to expand...
"hubris/chutzpah" is the fuel that we Americans run on ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and cowards.
WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
 
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:48:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:47:52 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:33 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:


Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.


No. There are an infinite number of available mistakes, and it's fun
to try new ones.

John


I'm way ahead... I guarantee that I've made more (design) mistakes
than *anyone* here! But that's how you learn ;-)

...Jim Thompson
Click to expand...
Don't be silly. A parts-on-boards circuit designer can make mistakes
at a far higher rate than an IC designer... we don't have to wait for
a wafer to be fabbed and we're not nearly as careful. We can, with
fast-turn prototype PC boards, get the mistake cycle down to a week or
less. Your mistakes are probably more expensive and dramatic, though.

Incidentally, how long does it take from IC design to working (or
non-working!) first chip? The fastest non-trivial thing we've ever
done was an eximer laser controller box, 60 days from "go" to working
unit.

John
 
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:17:53 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:48:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:47:52 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:33 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:


Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.


No. There are an infinite number of available mistakes, and it's fun
to try new ones.

John


I'm way ahead... I guarantee that I've made more (design) mistakes
than *anyone* here! But that's how you learn ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Don't be silly. A parts-on-boards circuit designer can make mistakes
at a far higher rate than an IC designer... we don't have to wait for
a wafer to be fabbed and we're not nearly as careful. We can, with
fast-turn prototype PC boards, get the mistake cycle down to a week or
less. Your mistakes are probably more expensive and dramatic, though.

Incidentally, how long does it take from IC design to working (or
non-working!) first chip? The fastest non-trivial thing we've ever
done was an eximer laser controller box, 60 days from "go" to working
unit.

John
Click to expand...
If it's a small/simple design that you can get processed on MPW
(multi-project wafer runs available from most fab house), you can
probably get into a fab cycle once a month.

But the big, complex, system-on-chip designs are like kids, 9 months
is typical ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and cowards.
WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
 
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:44:21 GMT, maxfoo
<maxfooHeadFromButt@punkass.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:31:29 -0700, Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com
wrote:


If it's a small/simple design that you can get processed on MPW
(multi-project wafer runs available from most fab house), you can
probably get into a fab cycle once a month.

IIRC 6"x6" engineering wafers are about $25k per wafer.
Click to expand...
6"x6" wafers??? I've not seen any *square* ones !-)

Price depends on feature size and die area. MOSIS is the major
organizer for MPW runs. See, for example........

http://www.mosis.org/Orders/Prices/price-list-domestic.html#ami12

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and cowards.
WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
 
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:03:51 GMT, maxfoo
<maxfooHeadFromButt@punkass.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:53:31 -0700, Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:44:21 GMT, maxfoo
maxfooHeadFromButt@punkass.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 16:31:29 -0700, Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com
wrote:


If it's a small/simple design that you can get processed on MPW
(multi-project wafer runs available from most fab house), you can
probably get into a fab cycle once a month.

IIRC 6"x6" engineering wafers are about $25k per wafer.


6"x6" wafers??? I've not seen any *square* ones !-)

Price depends on feature size and die area. MOSIS is the major
organizer for MPW runs. See, for example........

http://www.mosis.org/Orders/Prices/price-list-domestic.html#ami12

...Jim Thompson

Well the usable die are always in the middle of the wafer in a rectangular area.
The outside die are usually all rejects...so basically the good ones are in the
square portion of the wafer...
Click to expand...
You're demonstrating your lack of wafer-processing knowledge.

You certainly lose the die all around the edge, because they are only
partial die, but your "..so basically..." statement holds no water.

Careful kid, I've only been doing this IC stuff for 42 years ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

Throughout the history of this great country there have actually
been people of only two political persuasions: fighters and cowards.
WE MUST NOT LET THE LATTER PREVAIL IN THE NEXT ELECTION!
 
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:17:53 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:48:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:47:52 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:33 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:


Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.


No. There are an infinite number of available mistakes, and it's fun
to try new ones.

John


I'm way ahead... I guarantee that I've made more (design) mistakes
than *anyone* here! But that's how you learn ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Don't be silly. A parts-on-boards circuit designer can make mistakes
at a far higher rate than an IC designer... we don't have to wait for
a wafer to be fabbed and we're not nearly as careful. We can, with
fast-turn prototype PC boards, get the mistake cycle down to a week or
less. Your mistakes are probably more expensive and dramatic, though.

Incidentally, how long does it take from IC design to working (or
non-working!) first chip? The fastest non-trivial thing we've ever
done was an eximer laser controller box, 60 days from "go" to working
unit.

John
Click to expand...
That wasn't for Spectranetics in TX, was it?
--
Best Regards,
Mike
 
On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 17:25:09 -0500, Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net>
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 15:17:53 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 14:48:52 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:47:52 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 20:54:33 GMT, "Walter Driedger"
walter@driesmithdger.ca> wrote:


Ah, the arrogance! "We will not repeat the mistakes of others because we
are superior." But of course you will repeat because that attitude is
incapable of learning.


No. There are an infinite number of available mistakes, and it's fun
to try new ones.

John


I'm way ahead... I guarantee that I've made more (design) mistakes
than *anyone* here! But that's how you learn ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Don't be silly. A parts-on-boards circuit designer can make mistakes
at a far higher rate than an IC designer... we don't have to wait for
a wafer to be fabbed and we're not nearly as careful. We can, with
fast-turn prototype PC boards, get the mistake cycle down to a week or
less. Your mistakes are probably more expensive and dramatic, though.

Incidentally, how long does it take from IC design to working (or
non-working!) first chip? The fastest non-trivial thing we've ever
done was an eximer laser controller box, 60 days from "go" to working
unit.

John

That wasn't for Spectranetics in TX, was it?
Click to expand...

No, Cymer in San Diego.

http://www.cymer.com/products/product_detail.cfm?key=17


John
 
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