HDMI in US and in EU

[Cameo]

On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I specifically
mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so there is no more
misunderstanding about which Samsung model it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?
In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when Windows
screen is output on that monitor and not when the monitor is connected
directly to the PAL set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my
problem is.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 09/10/2019 11:49, Cameo wrote:

On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I specifically
mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so there is no more
misunderstanding about which Samsung model it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333hd-series-2333hd/


the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz horizontal
and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?
In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when Windows
screen is output on that monitor and not when the monitor is connected
directly to the PAL set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my
problem is.

Yes but the point is that your LCD display doesn't claim to be able to
do a frame rate that is as slow as 50Hz. TBH I'm surprised its PSU is
sufficiently well made to be used outside the USA on 240v mains.

My European HP made monitor claims:

HKR, "MODES\1920,1200",Mode1,,"30-94,48-85,+,+"

So its supported vertical sync rates at HD do include PAL 50Hz.

The only way to find out if your laptop is capable of driving a
particular TV over HDMI is to try it and see (unless you can see from
the specifications that it will accept both PAL & NTSC frame rates).

I expect some to display a monochrome only image if they can handle the
frame rate but not the alternative chroma encoding.

BTW some monitors and maybe TVs too have an option somewhere deep in
their config pages to analyse a video feed and suggest in which modes
they can support displaying it (or recommend a better mode).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qnkkro$it5$1@gioia.aioe.org:

On 09/10/2019 11:49, Cameo wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so
there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model it
is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333h
d-series-2333hd/


the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?
In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor and not when the monitor
is connected directly to the PAL set-top box via HDMI cable. And
THAT's where my problem is.

Yes but the point is that your LCD display doesn't claim to be
able to do a frame rate that is as slow as 50Hz. TBH I'm surprised
its PSU is sufficiently well made to be used outside the USA on
240v mains.

My European HP made monitor claims:

HKR, "MODES\1920,1200",Mode1,,"30-94,48-85,+,+"

So its supported vertical sync rates at HD do include PAL 50Hz.

The only way to find out if your laptop is capable of driving a
particular TV over HDMI is to try it and see (unless you can see
from the specifications that it will accept both PAL & NTSC frame
rates).

I expect some to display a monochrome only image if they can
handle the frame rate but not the alternative chroma encoding.

BTW some monitors and maybe TVs too have an option somewhere deep
in their config pages to analyse a video feed and suggest in which
modes they can support displaying it (or recommend a better mode).

Just look up the video subsystem for you laptop and see what modes
that chip can handle. You know... is it an nvidia 520 or such.

If it can handle it, then all one needs to change is the registry
setting. Many times there is a checkbox in the card settings that
allows for "non-standard rates" to be selected. That would likely
trigger an edit of the registry entry. No user intervention needed.

 

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qnk90p$rgv$1@gioia.aioe.org:

A more likely explanation for why big colour
monitors don't like being installed horizontal is that the shadow
mask support relies on gravity to be in its reference position.

The shadow mask inside picture tubes did not change position based on
the position of the tube.

Why don't you attempt to make up some more bullshit.

 

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qnk90p$rgv$1@gioia.aioe.org:

I agree. If there was a significant problem with the Earth's
magnetic field affecting colour CRT TVs it would also affect them
depending on their orientation with respect to North in the home.

Except that you failed to notice the other parameter.

The screens in upright video arcade games are tipped back from the
vertical plane.

Sorry, BOYS, but it was a known problem, and you are simply
inexperienced, unknowing jerks.

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:

On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I specifically
mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so there is no more
misunderstanding about which Samsung model it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I downloaded and opened
with file roller (kind of like winzip but for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other things
an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside the inf file
was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when Windows
screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL set-top
box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than 56Hz to
to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough, they could be
making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes, but my guess is that
those numbers bear a close relation to the practical sync rate limits for
that monitor, and your experience with trying to feed PAL and NTSC
signals to it seem to confirm that.

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

[Cameo]

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I specifically
mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so there is no more
misunderstanding about which Samsung model it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I downloaded and opened
with file roller (kind of like winzip but for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other things
an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside the inf file
was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when Windows
screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL set-top
box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than 56Hz to
to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough, they could be
making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes, but my guess is that
those numbers bear a close relation to the practical sync rate limits for
that monitor, and your experience with trying to feed PAL and NTSC
signals to it seem to confirm that.

I think you're right.

 

Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote in
news:qnnok9$8vq$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just
so there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model
it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333
hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I
downloaded and opened with file roller (kind of like winzip but
for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other
things an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside
the inf file was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the
monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL
set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than
56Hz to to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough,
they could be making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes,
but my guess is that those numbers bear a close relation to the
practical sync rate limits for that monitor, and your experience
with trying to feed PAL and NTSC signals to it seem to confirm
that.

I think you're right.

Yeah. I think the TV can do it, but the maker locks it out so that
euro folks buy euro TVs and not a cheaper US TV even though it could
do the job. It is not about them not being able to do it, it is
about marketing. Also it is not about HDMI either.

Take a look at this discussion:

<https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/664/do-differences-
between-ntsc-and-pal-matter-with-modern-tvs>

 

[Cameo]

On 10/9/2019 5:44 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qnkkro$it5$1@gioia.aioe.org:

On 09/10/2019 11:49, Cameo wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so
there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model it
is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333h
d-series-2333hd/


the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?
In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor and not when the monitor
is connected directly to the PAL set-top box via HDMI cable. And
THAT's where my problem is.

Yes but the point is that your LCD display doesn't claim to be
able to do a frame rate that is as slow as 50Hz. TBH I'm surprised
its PSU is sufficiently well made to be used outside the USA on
240v mains.

My European HP made monitor claims:

HKR, "MODES\1920,1200",Mode1,,"30-94,48-85,+,+"

So its supported vertical sync rates at HD do include PAL 50Hz.

The only way to find out if your laptop is capable of driving a
particular TV over HDMI is to try it and see (unless you can see
from the specifications that it will accept both PAL & NTSC frame
rates).

I expect some to display a monochrome only image if they can
handle the frame rate but not the alternative chroma encoding.

BTW some monitors and maybe TVs too have an option somewhere deep
in their config pages to analyse a video feed and suggest in which
modes they can support displaying it (or recommend a better mode).


Just look up the video subsystem for you laptop and see what modes
that chip can handle. You know... is it an nvidia 520 or such.

Actually, this one is Intel HD Graphics 4000.

If it can handle it, then all one needs to change is the registry
setting. Many times there is a checkbox in the card settings that
allows for "non-standard rates" to be selected. That would likely
trigger an edit of the registry entry. No user intervention needed.

I'm afraid this is above my expertise to even try.

 

[Rick C]

On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 1:09:34 PM UTC-4, Cameo wrote:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL set-top
box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than 56Hz to
to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough, they could be
making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes, but my guess is that
those numbers bear a close relation to the practical sync rate limits for
that monitor, and your experience with trying to feed PAL and NTSC
signals to it seem to confirm that.

I think you're right.

I would agree that the monitor will refuse to work at frequencies outside of its design limits. How well it would work if it didn't self limit is up for grabs. It's not like there's a yoke limitation or the frequency drives a bunch of analog electronics. It is just a matter of what values can be programmed into the various registers that control the refresh rate and resolution. The actual electronics, being nearly all digital, have no real limitations until registers overflow or maximum frequencies are reached.

These limits are probably more an issue of the utility of testing the design in all the cases.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Martin Brown]

On 10/10/2019 18:21, Cameo wrote:

On 10/9/2019 5:44 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qnkkro$it5$1@gioia.aioe.org:

On 09/10/2019 11:49, Cameo wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so
there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model it
is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333h
d-series-2333hd/


the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?
In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor and not when the monitor
is connected directly to the PAL set-top box via HDMI cable. And
THAT's where my problem is.

Yes but the point is that your LCD display doesn't claim to be
able to do a frame rate that is as slow as 50Hz. TBH I'm surprised
its PSU is sufficiently well made to be used outside the USA on
240v mains.

My European HP made monitor claims:

HKR, "MODES\1920,1200",Mode1,,"30-94,48-85,+,+"

So its supported vertical sync rates at HD do include PAL 50Hz.

The only way to find out if your laptop is capable of driving a
particular TV over HDMI is to try it and see (unless you can see
from the specifications that it will accept both PAL & NTSC frame
rates).

I expect some to display a monochrome only image if they can
handle the frame rate but not the alternative chroma encoding.

BTW some monitors and maybe TVs too have an option somewhere deep
in their config pages to analyse a video feed and suggest in which
modes they can support displaying it (or recommend a better mode).


   Just look up the video subsystem for you laptop and see what modes
that chip can handle.  You know...  is it an nvidia 520 or such.

Actually, this one is Intel HD Graphics 4000.

   If it can handle it, then all one needs to change is the registry
setting.  Many times there is a checkbox in the card settings that
allows for "non-standard rates" to be selected.  That would likely
trigger an edit of the registry entry.  No user intervention needed.

I'm afraid this is above my expertise to even try.

You may be in luck if the mode is available in the standard offering.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000007293/graphics-drivers.html

Shows roughly where to look in the standard Graphics 4000 driver.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:5cf6fefd-1c1a-4d57-95b0-1b1562ab5fe2@googlegroups.com:

I would agree that the monitor will refuse to work at frequencies
outside of its design limits. How well it would work if it didn't
self limit is up for grabs.

You are still stuck in the old paradigm.

Real simple. Since HDTV there is no PAL and there is no NTSC.
Switch mode power supplies made by OEM mfgrs as they practically all
are, can do from some 85 to 265 VAC autoswitching transformerless
input at 50 or 60 Hz. So the Power Supply is out of the way.

These displays are progressive scan. And since they are HDMI
compliant, the ONLY reason it would puke would be if it was
internally handcuffed, just like the days of regional DVD releases
and players that would only play in the region they were bought in.

So there are no self limits because you cannot damage it if you
connect an hdmi compliant output device to the display's hdmi input.

 

[Rick C]

On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 4:10:50 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

fredag den 11. oktober 2019 kl. 21.57.57 UTC+2 skrev Martin Brown:
On 11/10/2019 20:48, Cameo wrote:
On 10/10/2019 7:21 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote in
news:qnnok9$8vq$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just
so there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model
it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333
hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I
downloaded and opened with file roller (kind of like winzip but
for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other
things an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside
the inf file was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the
monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL
set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my  problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than
56Hz to to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough,
they could be making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes,
but my guess is that those numbers bear a close relation to the
practical sync rate limits for that monitor, and your experience
with trying to feed PAL and NTSC signals to it seem to confirm
that.

I think you're right.

   Yeah.  I think the TV can do it, but the maker locks it out so that
euro folks buy euro TVs and not a cheaper US TV even though it could
do the job.  It is not about them not being able to do it, it is
about marketing.  Also it is not about HDMI either.

   Take a look at this discussion:

https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/664/do-differences-
between-ntsc-and-pal-matter-with-modern-tvs

The regionalized DVD issue also crossed my mind as applicable analogy in
the PAL/NTSC case. Another similar marketing ploy is perpetrated by the
cell phone industry when they disable certain frequency bands to prevent
their phones being used on a competitor's network. Their motivation in
disabling the built-in FM radios is not as clear to me though. Seems to
me that EU is more pro-consumer in a lot of these areas than the US is.

EU folk also quite like watching US DVDs so you might be in luck trying
to find hacks to make NTSC frame rates work with local TVs.

NASA came to Tottenham Court Road in London to get its DVD players
chipped and made region free for the ISS.

I'm suprised the DVD Copy Control Association didn't insist on a lower earth orbit region code and special DVDs

Insane to do anything else.
Many supermarket models can be chipped with relative ease.

or are made by manufacturers that just doesn't bother implementing the nonsense

I seem to recall some EU kid was made a criminal by US law for writing a DVD driver for Linux or something similar. Was he ever arrested?

--

Rick C.

+- Get 2,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2019-10-11, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

On 11/10/2019 20:48, Cameo wrote:
On 10/10/2019 7:21 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote in
news:qnnok9$8vq$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just
so there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model
it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333
hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I
downloaded and opened with file roller (kind of like winzip but
for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other
things an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside
the inf file was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the
monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL
set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my  problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than
56Hz to to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough,
they could be making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes,
but my guess is that those numbers bear a close relation to the
practical sync rate limits for that monitor, and your experience
with trying to feed PAL and NTSC signals to it seem to confirm
that.

I think you're right.

   Yeah.  I think the TV can do it, but the maker locks it out so that
euro folks buy euro TVs and not a cheaper US TV even though it could
do the job.  It is not about them not being able to do it, it is
about marketing.  Also it is not about HDMI either.

   Take a look at this discussion:

https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/664/do-differences-
between-ntsc-and-pal-matter-with-modern-tvs

The regionalized DVD issue also crossed my mind as applicable analogy in
the PAL/NTSC case. Another similar marketing ploy is perpetrated by the
cell phone industry when they disable certain frequency bands to prevent
their phones being used on a competitor's network. Their motivation in
disabling the built-in FM radios is not as clear to me though. Seems to
me that EU is more pro-consumer in a lot of these areas than the US is.

EU folk also quite like watching US DVDs so you might be in luck trying
to find hacks to make NTSC frame rates work with local TVs.

Most PAL tvs support NTSC, this started with some of the later CRT
sets and became more common with flat panel displays.

NASA came to Tottenham Court Road in London to get its DVD players
chipped and made region free for the ISS. Insane to do anything else.
Many supermarket models can be chipped with relative ease.

Here in NZ someone had slipped a sheet of paper into the box of the
last DVD player I unboxed, said paper having the region free code to
be entered using the remote.

--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.

 

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qnqmru$e1q$1@gioia.aioe.org:

NASA came to Tottenham Court Road in London to get its DVD players
chipped and made region free for the ISS. Insane to do anything
else. Many supermarket models can be chipped with relative ease.

Are BluRay discs (and players) also regionalized?
And also, would not the ISS simply stream videos up to a PC up there
to play at will without the added weight of a disc collection?

 

[Cameo]

On 10/10/2019 7:21 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:

Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote in
news:qnnok9$8vq$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just
so there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model
it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333
hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I
downloaded and opened with file roller (kind of like winzip but
for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other
things an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside
the inf file was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the
monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL
set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than
56Hz to to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough,
they could be making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes,
but my guess is that those numbers bear a close relation to the
practical sync rate limits for that monitor, and your experience
with trying to feed PAL and NTSC signals to it seem to confirm
that.

I think you're right.



Yeah. I think the TV can do it, but the maker locks it out so that
euro folks buy euro TVs and not a cheaper US TV even though it could
do the job. It is not about them not being able to do it, it is
about marketing. Also it is not about HDMI either.

Take a look at this discussion:

https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/664/do-differences-
between-ntsc-and-pal-matter-with-modern-tvs

The regionalized DVD issue also crossed my mind as applicable analogy in
the PAL/NTSC case. Another similar marketing ploy is perpetrated by the
cell phone industry when they disable certain frequency bands to prevent
their phones being used on a competitor's network. Their motivation in
disabling the built-in FM radios is not as clear to me though. Seems to
me that EU is more pro-consumer in a lot of these areas than the US is.

 

[Cameo]

On 10/10/2019 7:48 PM, Martin Brown wrote:

On 10/10/2019 18:21, Cameo wrote:
On 10/9/2019 5:44 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote in
news:qnkkro$it5$1@gioia.aioe.org:

On 09/10/2019 11:49, Cameo wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just so
there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model it
is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333h
d-series-2333hd/


the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?
In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor and not when the monitor
is connected directly to the PAL set-top box via HDMI cable. And
THAT's where my problem is.

Yes but the point is that your LCD display doesn't claim to be
able to do a frame rate that is as slow as 50Hz. TBH I'm surprised
its PSU is sufficiently well made to be used outside the USA on
240v mains.

My European HP made monitor claims:

HKR, "MODES\1920,1200",Mode1,,"30-94,48-85,+,+"

So its supported vertical sync rates at HD do include PAL 50Hz.

The only way to find out if your laptop is capable of driving a
particular TV over HDMI is to try it and see (unless you can see
from the specifications that it will accept both PAL & NTSC frame
rates).

I expect some to display a monochrome only image if they can
handle the frame rate but not the alternative chroma encoding.

BTW some monitors and maybe TVs too have an option somewhere deep
in their config pages to analyse a video feed and suggest in which
modes they can support displaying it (or recommend a better mode).


   Just look up the video subsystem for you laptop and see what modes
that chip can handle.  You know...  is it an nvidia 520 or such.

Actually, this one is Intel HD Graphics 4000.

   If it can handle it, then all one needs to change is the registry
setting.  Many times there is a checkbox in the card settings that
allows for "non-standard rates" to be selected.  That would likely
trigger an edit of the registry entry.  No user intervention needed.

I'm afraid this is above my expertise to even try.

You may be in luck if the mode is available in the standard offering.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000007293/graphics-drivers.html


Shows roughly where to look in the standard Graphics 4000 driver.

Thanks, but I just don't want to risk damaging either my video chip, or
the display monitor with such thinkering with the driver.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 11/10/2019 20:48, Cameo wrote:

On 10/10/2019 7:21 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote in
news:qnnok9$8vq$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just
so there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model
it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333
hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I
downloaded and opened with file roller (kind of like winzip but
for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other
things an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside
the inf file was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the
monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL
set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my  problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than
56Hz to to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough,
they could be making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes,
but my guess is that those numbers bear a close relation to the
practical sync rate limits for that monitor, and your experience
with trying to feed PAL and NTSC signals to it seem to confirm
that.

I think you're right.

   Yeah.  I think the TV can do it, but the maker locks it out so that
euro folks buy euro TVs and not a cheaper US TV even though it could
do the job.  It is not about them not being able to do it, it is
about marketing.  Also it is not about HDMI either.

   Take a look at this discussion:

https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/664/do-differences-
between-ntsc-and-pal-matter-with-modern-tvs

The regionalized DVD issue also crossed my mind as applicable analogy in
the PAL/NTSC case. Another similar marketing ploy is perpetrated by the
cell phone industry when they disable certain frequency bands to prevent
their phones being used on a competitor's network. Their motivation in
disabling the built-in FM radios is not as clear to me though. Seems to
me that EU is more pro-consumer in a lot of these areas than the US is.

EU folk also quite like watching US DVDs so you might be in luck trying
to find hacks to make NTSC frame rates work with local TVs.

NASA came to Tottenham Court Road in London to get its DVD players
chipped and made region free for the ISS. Insane to do anything else.
Many supermarket models can be chipped with relative ease.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

fredag den 11. oktober 2019 kl. 21.57.57 UTC+2 skrev Martin Brown:

On 11/10/2019 20:48, Cameo wrote:
On 10/10/2019 7:21 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote in
news:qnnok9$8vq$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just
so there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model
it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333
hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I
downloaded and opened with file roller (kind of like winzip but
for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other
things an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside
the inf file was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the
monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL
set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my  problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than
56Hz to to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough,
they could be making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes,
but my guess is that those numbers bear a close relation to the
practical sync rate limits for that monitor, and your experience
with trying to feed PAL and NTSC signals to it seem to confirm
that.

I think you're right.

   Yeah.  I think the TV can do it, but the maker locks it out so that
euro folks buy euro TVs and not a cheaper US TV even though it could
do the job.  It is not about them not being able to do it, it is
about marketing.  Also it is not about HDMI either.

   Take a look at this discussion:

https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/664/do-differences-
between-ntsc-and-pal-matter-with-modern-tvs

The regionalized DVD issue also crossed my mind as applicable analogy in
the PAL/NTSC case. Another similar marketing ploy is perpetrated by the
cell phone industry when they disable certain frequency bands to prevent
their phones being used on a competitor's network. Their motivation in
disabling the built-in FM radios is not as clear to me though. Seems to
me that EU is more pro-consumer in a lot of these areas than the US is.

EU folk also quite like watching US DVDs so you might be in luck trying
to find hacks to make NTSC frame rates work with local TVs.

NASA came to Tottenham Court Road in London to get its DVD players
chipped and made region free for the ISS.

I'm suprised the DVD Copy Control Association didn't insist on a lower earth orbit region code and special DVDs

Insane to do anything else.
Many supermarket models can be chipped with relative ease.

or are made by manufacturers that just doesn't bother implementing the nonsense

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

fredag den 11. oktober 2019 kl. 22.44.44 UTC+2 skrev Rick C:

On Friday, October 11, 2019 at 4:10:50 PM UTC-4, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
fredag den 11. oktober 2019 kl. 21.57.57 UTC+2 skrev Martin Brown:
On 11/10/2019 20:48, Cameo wrote:
On 10/10/2019 7:21 PM, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote in
news:qnnok9$8vq$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/10/2019 7:50 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-09, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/9/2019 7:04 AM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2019-10-08, Cameo <cameo@unreal.invalid> wrote:
On 10/8/2019 12:58 PM, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

I don't know why you're talking about CRT TVs, when I
specifically mentioned LCD monitor in my original post. Just
so there is no more misunderstanding about which Samsung model
it is, here is a link for it:

https://www.samsung.com/us/business/support/owners/product/2333
hd-series-2333hd/

the "driver" constains a registry entry

HKR,"MODES\1920,1080",Mode1,,"30-81,56-75,+,+"

if I'm reading that correctly that means it does 30-81 kHz
horizontal and 56-75 Hz vertical.

Which explains why it's not working with a PAL source.

Wow! Where did you find the driver code?

I followd that link there was an windows driver which I
downloaded and opened with file roller (kind of like winzip but
for linux).

File roller found that the driver file contained among other
things an ".inf" file. I opened that with a text editor, inside
the inf file was that line. (and a load of other stuff)

In any case, the registry entry would only play a role when
Windows screen is output on that monitor

yes, but it tells windows what it is allowed to send to the
monitor.

and not when the monitor is connected directly to the PAL
set-top box via HDMI cable. And THAT's where my  problem is.

I'm guessing that samsung tells windows not to send less than
56Hz to to the monitor becase the monitor can't go slow enough,
they could be making arbitrary restrictions just to be assholes,
but my guess is that those numbers bear a close relation to the
practical sync rate limits for that monitor, and your experience
with trying to feed PAL and NTSC signals to it seem to confirm
that.

I think you're right.

   Yeah.  I think the TV can do it, but the maker locks it out so that
euro folks buy euro TVs and not a cheaper US TV even though it could
do the job.  It is not about them not being able to do it, it is
about marketing.  Also it is not about HDMI either.

   Take a look at this discussion:

https://expatriates.stackexchange.com/questions/664/do-differences-
between-ntsc-and-pal-matter-with-modern-tvs

The regionalized DVD issue also crossed my mind as applicable analogy in
the PAL/NTSC case. Another similar marketing ploy is perpetrated by the
cell phone industry when they disable certain frequency bands to prevent
their phones being used on a competitor's network. Their motivation in
disabling the built-in FM radios is not as clear to me though. Seems to
me that EU is more pro-consumer in a lot of these areas than the US is.

EU folk also quite like watching US DVDs so you might be in luck trying
to find hacks to make NTSC frame rates work with local TVs.

NASA came to Tottenham Court Road in London to get its DVD players
chipped and made region free for the ISS.

I'm suprised the DVD Copy Control Association didn't insist on a lower earth orbit region code and special DVDs

Insane to do anything else.
Many supermarket models can be chipped with relative ease.

or are made by manufacturers that just doesn't bother implementing the nonsense

I seem to recall some EU kid was made a criminal by US law for writing a DVD driver for Linux or something similar. Was he ever arrested?

DVD Jon ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Lech_Johansen