FUD...

[Don Y]

On 9/11/2022 3:20 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 1:03:43 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

There\'s nothing that says a combine needs to cut a 40 ft swath -- except that
a SINGLE DRIVER can get more done, that way (but, if machines were driving,
the number of such drivers wouldn\'t be limited!).

Or, that all of the processing done in the combine needs to happen in a
single vehicle.

That could take things back to the late 1950s or 60s when farmers used corn pickers.
Farmers had to haul the complete ear to corn cribs. The shelling was done later when the grain
was taken into town. The cobs and some of the shucks ended up in piles that were burned.

There\'s nothing to say you can\'t perform that job on the farm,
just in a different way than \"in the combine\".

The goal has been to lower labor costs/body counts. We have
robots building cars; they can\'t learn to shuck corn?

And, if energy is suddenly priced at it\'s actual value, one
might decide that corn isn\'t the most efficient way of \"growing
calories\" for human consumption. (There\'s already some groaning
about meat)

Or, that the energy source needs to be *in* the combine.

Or, that we should be growing that much *corn* (if ICE goes away, 25% of
corn crops do as well); after all, the goal is to grow calories!
Ethanol was seen as another use for the crop. Corn doesn\'t lose feed value after
it\'s processed for ethanol.
https://farm-energy.extension.org/corn-for-biofuel-production/

If you\'re phasing out ICE\'s you can phase out the 25% of your corn production
that had previously been (subsidized!) devoted to that market.

See? The problem gets simpler, the more you look at it (tongue firmly
planted in cheek)

 

[Don Y]

On 9/5/2022 4:17 PM, rbowman wrote:

SWMBOs vehicle sees so little use (mine sees even LESS!) that I now let the
dealer do routine maintenance. An oil change every *year* (~4500 miles)
sets us back $80.

I just started seeing the check engine light flashing on startup to indicate
the 15,000 mile oil change is coming up.

Each of hers have been at ~4500 miles. Presumably, the car notices how it is
driven (entirely city driving -- only been on the highway twice and just for
short runs) and adjust the service interval accordingly.

Indicator displays \"oil life remaining\" (percent). Dealer wants you to
come in when it gets to 15%. Yeah, right. If the car wanted me to get
service at 15%, don\'t you think it would have said so? (we can drive for
~3 months AFTER the 15% point).

I\'ve always done them myself. It takes
a half hour overall and most of that time I\'m doing something else while
waiting for the last drips to drop. I do it at my convenience, no appointment,
no waiting. The timing is right too, although doing the change in the winter
isn\'t a problem.

It\'s not just the oil but check all fluids, give the brakes a once-over,
see how tires are faring, battery load test, etc. These are things that
I would rationalize not doing until I \"felt\" they needed to be checked.
As I can\'t count on her to notice when something is awry, its easier to
just have someone look at it annually.

(they\'re the ones who spotted the rear wiper needing replacement; who
bothers checking wipers when it rarely rains??!)

Just discovered the rear wiper on SWMBOs vehicle needs replacing. Its been
so long since I\'ve done so that I was surprised to see they no longer sell
\"wiper inserts\" (you have to replace the whole blade assy?)

A few years back I was buying an assembly and the clerk asked me why I didn\'t
just change the insert. \'Huh? You still have inserts?\' The current car has 1
beam wiper, 28\" iirc. CostCo had them on sale so I bought two. I think I have
one for the rear someplace. The little ones are hard to find.

Google didn\'t show anything when I looked. I will make a project out
of it once I clear some of the more immediate stuff off my list (replacing
a sidewalk, presently).

Tires and batteries are the bane, here. About 3.5 years for a battery
(so, pull it and return it for full replacement cost at 3 years CLAIMING
it to be bad instead of waiting for it to go flat!). Tires last about
35K (7 years for SWMBO who still doesn\'t seem to understand \"only turn the
steering wheel while car is in motion\")

The 2007 Toyota died an untimely death in 2013 with the OEM battery. The 2013
was the trade in in 2020 with the OEM battery. Winter cranking is nothing
compared to living in an oven.

Cold makes engine \"seem\" larger and battery output lower. But, doesn\'t
*eat* the batteries like the heat does!

Original battery was replaced by dealer \"under (original car\'s) warranty\"
at ~3 years. Replacement started acting up at the 6 year mark so I
replaced it (Costco). At 9 years, I\'ll pull that one and claim it\'s failed.

The tires on the first two lasted about 25,000. They were LRR tires to perk up
the fleet mileage figures. Low on resistance and low on durability.

She\'s at ~35K now. Tires *could* eek out a few K more but I don\'t like her
running low on rubber. Winter rains will make driving slick (she\'ll be
driving more in winter as she reengages with all of the activities
associated with that season).

Fortunately I don\'t have to worry about smog tests. My brother had an
elderly Tercel but after it failed the CA test it would have cost a
lot more than it was worth to fix it. He gave it to one of those car
donation organizations so

They usually just trade it to a reseller who may get $500 for it.
Some places you have to be careful about the size of the write-off you
take for
things like cars. *You* (and Kelly) may think it\'s worth $X but the IRS
may
look at the typical recovered value (e.g., from that wholesaler) and limit
your deduction, accordingly.

[If you want to donate something, donate cash (which has an undisputable
value)
or time (which likely has no value)]

I doubt the deduction had anything to do with it. He hated to see a perfectly
good car scrapped. I felt the same with Obama\'s cash for clunkers. So you\'re
going to destroy a perfectly good engine? It wasn\'t even a consideration but my
pickup, which may have a little less than pristine emissions,was too old to
qualify.

There are many who think of vehicles as fashion statements -- \"What\'s the new
crop look like?\" The types whose pickup beds are pristine with factory paint!

I prefer to run a car hard and long.

My car has to take a trip on the dyno. But, has never failed, despite age
(I suspect they lower the requirements to allow vehicles to remain on
the road)

I was AZ plates for a couple of years. iirc Tucson had smog tests but Ajo was
exempt.

Dunno about Ajo -- too far west! Also not sure how much is state/county/city
regulation.

 

[Don Y]

On 9/11/2022 2:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Writer John Hinderaker claims an EV future is impossible due to a lack of copper among
other things.
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2022/09/the-green-revolution-is-impossible.php
He cite Professor Simon Michaux from Finland.
I copied this from a Duck Duck Go search. Michaux has at least one piece of paper saying he\'s knowledgeable.
\"7 days agoHolding a Bachelor of Applied Science degree in Physics and Geology and a PhD in Mining Engineering from the University of Queensland, Simon has extensive experience in mining research and development, circular economic principles, industrial recycling, and mineral intelligence.\"
I don\'t have the faintest idea if the Professor knows what he\'s talking about.

I\'ve seen varying assessments as to the availability of *accessible* natural
resources for EVs (wiring, batteries, etc.).

I\'ve already stated that I don\'t think *battery* electric vehicles are a
long-term solution; as we see this first crop of EVs \"exhaust\" their batteries
and the cost to consumers for their replacement/refurbishing, there will
likely be an \"adjustment\" of expectations.

And, as tax structures catch up to EVs, in general (no \"gas tax\" yet they still
use the roadways; it will be amusing to watch to see how the pols rationalize
an \"emissions test\" -- fee! -- for EVs as ICEs are phased out), some of the
economics will get murkier.

What needs to happen is a rethink of how energy is used/misused.

I think covid has shown people that a lot of \"work\" can be done
without the cost of a commute. And, product (e.g., grocery) deliveries
can eliminate the need for inefficient trips to the store (a business
that delivers will likely invest in more efficient delivery means
than a private individual who never really *sees* the cost of that
trip to the store).

Finally, there may be a move towards more integrated \"settlements\" instead
of inner city + suburbs. Keeping people and their needs closer together.
Amazing how most college students can live without a vehicle for
several years -- because their worlds are more highly integrated. Yet,
they still have to eat, go to class (\"work\"), recreate, etc.

 

[Don Y]

On 9/5/2022 4:28 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 09/05/2022 02:05 PM, Don Y wrote:
Is it a lack of scientific training? Stupidity? Or, just confirmation
bias?

All of the above... If people will but the story that the Russians are shelling
a nuclear plant they control for the general hell of it I guess anything is
fair game.

If I really cared I would have been plunged into despair over the last few
years. It\'s not that A is right and B is wrong; it\'s both A and B\'s arguments
contain glaring logical inconsistencies.

I would like to think (hope?) that the people on which I will
rely \"in my declining years\" were marginally competent thinkers
lest they not act in ways that put me in jeopardy!

Instead, it looks like they\'re easily distracted by shiny things
and loud noises...

\"Oh, look! A butterfly!\"

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, September 6, 2022 at 6:39:12 AM UTC+10, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Mon, 5 Sep 2022 13:44:08 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

On 09/05/2022 09:05 AM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2022 22:02:54 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

On 09/04/2022 04:45 PM, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Paul Ehrlich thought that it was useless to help the poor in India;
let\'em die.

Not a popular decision. A parable, or something. I was raised in upstate
New York. Just about every winter the Times Union would run photos of
deer yarded up in the deep snow and starving in the outdoors section.
This would inspire caring people to organize hay drops. The next year
there would be more deer yarded up and starving. Rinse and repeat.

It got to the point that what was then called the Conservation
Department was pleading with people to go out during hunting season and
harvest the deer. I left the state 50 years ago but if anything the
problem has gotten worse.

https://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/104911.html

So, what happens when human populations exceed the carrying capacity?

https://abcnews.go.com/International/millions-lives-risk-famine-stalks-horn-africa/story?id=84643535

https://www.populationpyramid.net/kenya/1970/

Kenya\'s population went from 11 million in 1970 to 54 million today. Is
that sustainable? Is the World Food Program feeding deer in a vicious
cycle?

Prosperous and educated human populations limit their own birth rates.
Deer don\'t do that.

Kenya doesn\'t make the cut for prosperous and educated.
So build their infrastructure and agriculture. Educate them.

For that matter neither does the segment of the US population that reproduces freely.
US population increase lately is immigration driven.

I assume you don\'t include yourself in the \"reproduces freely\" category.

Presumably John Larkin doesn\'t either. IIRR he has two kids, which is fewer than the 2.3 required to sustain the population.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Don Y]

On 9/15/2022 10:27 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 10:36:28 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2022 7:28 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 10:45:27 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

We worked on a process to *coat* seeds (herbicide? fertilizer?) but
I can\'t see how that could be economical -- except for special crops
or special conditions (it takes hours to coat a few hundred pounds).

Or, it could have just been a proof of principle (or even patent proof)
exercise waiting for a more practical means of deployment.

Seed corn has been coated with some sort of disease/bug killer since I was
a kid. Call it 1960. It was usually pink. Here\'s a link to Corteva Seed.
https://www.corteva.us/products-and-solutions/seed-treatments.html
This was more recent -- 80\'s. The equipment being used was intended for use
with pharmaceutical products. It seemed (at the time) that use with seeds
would be problematic:
- use of organic solvents seemed like it would be tricky (seed viability?)
- use of aqueous film seemed like it would risk adding too much moisture
- the temperatures experienced in forcing evaporation of the solvent
seemed like they might damage the product
- lot sizes are relatively small and processing time relatively *long*

[but, I have a bit less than zero knowledge of what seeds, in general
(let alone specific crops that might have been targeted) can tolerate]

I.e., the process works for pharmaceuticals because:
- batches are smaller (you can\'t mix two different pharma products so
you\'re only processing *a* batch of *a* product -- even at 1M/hr, you\'ve
got a whole hour before the next batch will be ready!),
- the compounds can be chosen to tolerate the solvents/films/temperatures used
- there is a relatively high value to many of the products processed this way
(you can sell a tablet for a fraction of a dollar or many dollars; how much
can you sell *a* seed?)
Corn, wheat, soybean, and other seeds get treated. Seed corn has always been
expensive stuff. Field corn farmers sold might\'ve been $2 or $3/ bushel (56 lbs.)
Seed corn might\'ve been around $70 per 50 lb. bag if my memory is anywhere close.
Imagine 50 pounds of <pick-your-pharmaceutical

We almost live in different worlds.

<shrug> Possible/likely. I haven\'t been on a farm in at least 4 decades;
maybe closer to 5?

And, farms in New England are very different in their crops, livestock, size,
methods of farming, etc. You\'re more likely to find a large orchard than
anything else. Tobacco being the only thing comparable to large corn/wheat
fields.

I got curious so I looked for electric battery powered
tractors. Soletrac is made in the U.S. They have a sub compact tractor that\'s around 25
hp. A California dealer has a list price of just under $34,0t00.

A Massey Ferguson 1725M price with about 25 hp. is around $16,000 give or take.

Soletrac has a 70 hp. version. $75,000 or so. A power pack with a charger
and battery adds about $10,000.

A John Deere with 65 hp. is on sale for $52,000. One hour on the tach.
It has a cab so it\'s not a direct comparison. The green paint is at least half of the price.

But even support for a (human) *driver* is unnecessary. \"Imagine what a chair
would look like if your knees bent the other way...\"

You mentioned somewhere up the line about farmers using the whole plant.
The few cattle feeders left in my area do chop the corn for silage.
What\'s left of the plant is the stalk cut boot high or so.

The farms I grew up near just plowed it under and spread manure on top.
As our school wasn\'t air conditioned, we relied on open windows for cooling.
You learn to develop a profound dislike for the smell of manure -- esp
in the cafeteria!

 

[rbowman]

On 09/15/2022 06:58 PM, Don Y wrote:

On 9/15/2022 10:27 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 10:36:28 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2022 7:28 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 10:45:27 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

We worked on a process to *coat* seeds (herbicide? fertilizer?) but
I can\'t see how that could be economical -- except for special crops
or special conditions (it takes hours to coat a few hundred pounds).

Or, it could have just been a proof of principle (or even patent
proof)
exercise waiting for a more practical means of deployment.

Seed corn has been coated with some sort of disease/bug killer since
I was
a kid. Call it 1960. It was usually pink. Here\'s a link to Corteva
Seed.
https://www.corteva.us/products-and-solutions/seed-treatments.html
This was more recent -- 80\'s. The equipment being used was intended
for use
with pharmaceutical products. It seemed (at the time) that use with
seeds
would be problematic:
- use of organic solvents seemed like it would be tricky (seed
viability?)
- use of aqueous film seemed like it would risk adding too much moisture
- the temperatures experienced in forcing evaporation of the solvent
seemed like they might damage the product
- lot sizes are relatively small and processing time relatively *long*

[but, I have a bit less than zero knowledge of what seeds, in general
(let alone specific crops that might have been targeted) can tolerate]

I.e., the process works for pharmaceuticals because:
- batches are smaller (you can\'t mix two different pharma products so
you\'re only processing *a* batch of *a* product -- even at 1M/hr, you\'ve
got a whole hour before the next batch will be ready!),
- the compounds can be chosen to tolerate the
solvents/films/temperatures used
- there is a relatively high value to many of the products processed
this way
(you can sell a tablet for a fraction of a dollar or many dollars;
how much
can you sell *a* seed?)
Corn, wheat, soybean, and other seeds get treated. Seed corn has
always been
expensive stuff. Field corn farmers sold might\'ve been $2 or $3/
bushel (56 lbs.)
Seed corn might\'ve been around $70 per 50 lb. bag if my memory is
anywhere close.
Imagine 50 pounds of <pick-your-pharmaceutical

We almost live in different worlds.

shrug> Possible/likely. I haven\'t been on a farm in at least 4 decades;
maybe closer to 5?

And, farms in New England are very different in their crops, livestock,
size,
methods of farming, etc. You\'re more likely to find a large orchard than
anything else. Tobacco being the only thing comparable to large corn/wheat
fields.

I got curious so I looked for electric battery powered
tractors. Soletrac is made in the U.S. They have a sub compact
tractor that\'s around 25
hp. A California dealer has a list price of just under $34,0t00.

A Massey Ferguson 1725M price with about 25 hp. is around $16,000 give
or take.

Soletrac has a 70 hp. version. $75,000 or so. A power pack with a
charger
and battery adds about $10,000.

A John Deere with 65 hp. is on sale for $52,000. One hour on the tach.
It has a cab so it\'s not a direct comparison. The green paint is at
least half of the price.

But even support for a (human) *driver* is unnecessary. \"Imagine what a
chair
would look like if your knees bent the other way...\"

You mentioned somewhere up the line about farmers using the whole plant.
The few cattle feeders left in my area do chop the corn for silage.
What\'s left of the plant is the stalk cut boot high or so.

The farms I grew up near just plowed it under and spread manure on top.
As our school wasn\'t air conditioned, we relied on open windows for
cooling.
You learn to develop a profound dislike for the smell of manure -- esp
in the cafeteria!

What did they use to feed the animals that produced the manure?

 

[Dean Hoffman]

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 7:59:12 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

On 9/15/2022 10:27 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 10:36:28 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2022 7:28 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 10:45:27 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

We worked on a process to *coat* seeds (herbicide? fertilizer?) but
I can\'t see how that could be economical -- except for special crops
or special conditions (it takes hours to coat a few hundred pounds).

Or, it could have just been a proof of principle (or even patent proof)
exercise waiting for a more practical means of deployment.

Seed corn has been coated with some sort of disease/bug killer since I was
a kid. Call it 1960. It was usually pink. Here\'s a link to Corteva Seed.
https://www.corteva.us/products-and-solutions/seed-treatments.html
This was more recent -- 80\'s. The equipment being used was intended for use
with pharmaceutical products. It seemed (at the time) that use with seeds
would be problematic:
- use of organic solvents seemed like it would be tricky (seed viability?)
- use of aqueous film seemed like it would risk adding too much moisture
- the temperatures experienced in forcing evaporation of the solvent
seemed like they might damage the product
- lot sizes are relatively small and processing time relatively *long*

[but, I have a bit less than zero knowledge of what seeds, in general
(let alone specific crops that might have been targeted) can tolerate]

I.e., the process works for pharmaceuticals because:
- batches are smaller (you can\'t mix two different pharma products so
you\'re only processing *a* batch of *a* product -- even at 1M/hr, you\'ve
got a whole hour before the next batch will be ready!),
- the compounds can be chosen to tolerate the solvents/films/temperatures used
- there is a relatively high value to many of the products processed this way
(you can sell a tablet for a fraction of a dollar or many dollars; how much
can you sell *a* seed?)
Corn, wheat, soybean, and other seeds get treated. Seed corn has always been
expensive stuff. Field corn farmers sold might\'ve been $2 or $3/ bushel (56 lbs.)
Seed corn might\'ve been around $70 per 50 lb. bag if my memory is anywhere close.
Imagine 50 pounds of <pick-your-pharmaceutical

We almost live in different worlds.
shrug> Possible/likely. I haven\'t been on a farm in at least 4 decades;
maybe closer to 5?

And, farms in New England are very different in their crops, livestock, size,
methods of farming, etc. You\'re more likely to find a large orchard than
anything else. Tobacco being the only thing comparable to large corn/wheat
fields.
I got curious so I looked for electric battery powered
tractors. Soletrac is made in the U.S. They have a sub compact tractor that\'s around 25
hp. A California dealer has a list price of just under $34,0t00.
A Massey Ferguson 1725M price with about 25 hp. is around $16,000 give or take.
Soletrac has a 70 hp. version. $75,000 or so. A power pack with a charger
and battery adds about $10,000.

A John Deere with 65 hp. is on sale for $52,000. One hour on the tach.
It has a cab so it\'s not a direct comparison. The green paint is at least half of the price.
But even support for a (human) *driver* is unnecessary. \"Imagine what a chair
would look like if your knees bent the other way...\"
You mentioned somewhere up the line about farmers using the whole plant..
The few cattle feeders left in my area do chop the corn for silage.
What\'s left of the plant is the stalk cut boot high or so.
The farms I grew up near just plowed it under and spread manure on top.
As our school wasn\'t air conditioned, we relied on open windows for cooling.
You learn to develop a profound dislike for the smell of manure -- esp
in the cafeteria!

Farms have changed a lot here in central Nebraska since I was a kid a mere half century ago. Farmers used to raise a little of everything. We always had a few cattle. One of them was destined for the freezer. We had a milk cow. It\'s more work than you might think to hand milk a cow.
Mom and the other farm women raised chickens and maybe ducks. A rooster might see the sunrise and be on our table for the evening meal. (supper). We always had eggs straight from the chicken coop.
Bowman mentioned the get big or get out thing. My brother and I took a tour of the old neighborhood a few weeks ago. We stopped and tried to remember where the old Gierhan homestead was. The two Sternberg home places were a bit farther down the road. One of them was a life long bachelor we called the Lone Ranger. This life long bachelor threw his laundry on the bushes by his house to dry. The people and building sites are long gone.
I mentioned something about having farm animals to a farmer a couple years ago. He started laughing and said he wasn\'t sure if there was even a cat on his place.

 

[Don Y]

On 9/17/2022 9:39 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Farms have changed a lot here in central Nebraska since I was a kid a mere
half century ago. Farmers used to raise a little of everything. We always
had a few cattle. One of them was destined for the freezer. We had a milk
cow. It\'s more work than you might think to hand milk a cow.

Never \"worked\" a farm. But, recall getting \"fresh\" milk from the dairy up the
road (in a GLASS gallon jug with a little cardboard \"stopper\" wedged in
the ~1\" mouth that you had to return for deposit/refill). I recall the
\"milk box\" on the front porch but can\'t seem to remember deliveries; but
*do* remember carrying that jug!

And, fresh ice cream (\"What flavors do you have *today*?\")

[I recall a \"shout out\" on Hee-Haw claiming we had a population of 2,000!]

Mom and the other farm women raised chickens and maybe ducks. A rooster
might see the sunrise and be on our table for the evening meal. (supper). We
always had eggs straight from the chicken coop.

Bowman mentioned the get big or get out thing. My brother and I took a tour
of the old neighborhood a few weeks ago. We stopped and tried to remember
where the old Gierhan homestead was. The two Sternberg home places were a
bit farther down the road. One of them was a life long bachelor we called
the Lone Ranger. This life long bachelor threw his laundry on the bushes
by his house to dry. The people and building sites are long gone.

In my home town, I suspect the land is worth considerably more than
it\'s value generating crops. Half-acre *lots* (sans buildings) sell for
$125K (good location, still \"suburban\", great schools, etc.).

Even a tiny bit of farmland would generate more sold-off as building
parcels than it could likely generate (I think 1/2 acre is still the
smallest lot that you are allowed to build upon)

I mentioned something about having farm animals to a farmer a couple years
ago. He started laughing and said he wasn\'t sure if there was even a cat on
his place.

 

[rbowman]

On 09/17/2022 12:40 PM, Don Y wrote:

Never \"worked\" a farm. But, recall getting \"fresh\" milk from the dairy
up the
road (in a GLASS gallon jug with a little cardboard \"stopper\" wedged in
the ~1\" mouth that you had to return for deposit/refill). I recall the
\"milk box\" on the front porch but can\'t seem to remember deliveries; but
*do* remember carrying that jug!

We had the insulated box on the porch for milk but it was quart glass
jugs with the cardboard seal. Bread was also delivered. You put the
Freihofer\'s sign in the window if you wanted anything.

https://www.hartcluett.org/rensselaer-county-blog/freihofer

The town where I grew up was along a creek, which was where stuff was
dumped. The dairy was across the road from a marshy backwater which
really got ripe in the summer. The cattails flourished on dairy effluent.

 

[Don Y]

On 9/17/2022 11:35 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 09/17/2022 12:40 PM, Don Y wrote:
Never \"worked\" a farm.  But, recall getting \"fresh\" milk from the dairy
up the
road (in a GLASS gallon jug with a little cardboard \"stopper\" wedged in
the ~1\" mouth that you had to return for deposit/refill).  I recall the
\"milk box\" on the front porch but can\'t seem to remember deliveries; but
*do* remember carrying that jug!

We had the insulated box on the porch for milk but it was quart glass jugs with
the cardboard seal. Bread was also delivered. You put the Freihofer\'s sign in
the window if you wanted anything.

Dunno as \"deliveries\" likely happened before I was old enough to walk to
the dairy (and, who cares *how* the stuff arrives -- as long as YOU didn\'t
have to go fetch it!)

Ours was the first house built on the street so the box arrived *for* our
use, not something left by a previous owner.

I\'m not sure where the cows grazed as the dairy was located for ease
of (motorized) access (most of the farmland was on one-lane back roads
so milk was likely trucked to the facility to be processed).

I recall the ice cream shop (possibly a different owner) was located
a few miles away. Not really an \"eat in\" sort of establishment; more
like a counter that was staffed whenever there was free time to do so.

That seemed to be a common thread with these small places. Almost as if
the people doing it were doing it for fun or sense of community (they
surely couldn\'t get rich selling cones to young kids off the beaten trail!)

Like the donut shop that was open when \"ma & pa\" felt like making donuts;
served whatever they happened to make on that day; and closed as soon as
the last donut was sold. I remember learning at an early age that just
because it *looked* like a jelly donut, there were no guarantees as to
what might be inside! (ask -- POLITELY -- and don\'t turn up your nose
if you don\'t like the answer!)

And fresh baked pumpernickel, jewish rye, pretzel sticks, etc.

Ah, and what I wouldn\'t give, today, for a *good* bagel...

The town where I grew up was along a creek, which was where stuff was dumped.
The dairy was across the road from a marshy backwater which really got ripe in
the summer. The cattails flourished on dairy effluent.

Lots of ponds where I lived (no idea where the water originated but you could
trace the flow out of some of them -- look for the waterwheels). Some man-made
(e.g., where the brick works captured their clay). Great for ice skating
in the winter months; likely a real mosquito haven in summer!

Elementary school built when I was a kid used to have a brook on the land.
Afterwards, the brook was gone -- it had been routed through a large
concrete pipe buried on the property (you could still find the source
end on the far side of the school but the rest had been hidden from access)

An aunt/uncle had a small brook on their property line. My favorite place
to harvest pussy willows (\"Why can\'t we plant a pussy willow tree, Dad?\")

 

[rbowman]

On 09/18/2022 02:21 AM, Don Y wrote:

I\'m not sure where the cows grazed as the dairy was located for ease
of (motorized) access (most of the farmland was on one-lane back roads
so milk was likely trucked to the facility to be processed).

In high school I took an extra credit summer biology program. We did
everything from wading in a creek capturing the organisms that lived
under the rocks to visiting a sewage treatment plant. One day followed
dairy products starting at the farm and ending at the Borden plant. It
was scheduled so while talking to the farmer the truck arrived to pick
up his milk. Most of the dairy farms in the area were small, fewer than
100 cows, so the truck had to stop at several.

That seemed to be a common thread with these small places. Almost as if
the people doing it were doing it for fun or sense of community (they
surely couldn\'t get rich selling cones to young kids off the beaten trail!)

I had the misconception as a kid that adults enjoyed what they were
doing from the short order cook at the Miss Troy diner to the scientists
that talked to us from the RPI outreach programs.

A wakeup came at a Van Ronk show at the Cafe Lena. The Lena was a very
intimate venue and I was at a table next to two couples, young
professionals by their appearance. Their conversation was about how much
each hated their job.

I\'ve had jobs I didn\'t like and they tended to last about three months
before I moved on.

 

[Don Y]

On 9/18/2022 11:29 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 09/18/2022 02:21 AM, Don Y wrote:
I\'m not sure where the cows grazed as the dairy was located for ease
of (motorized) access (most of the farmland was on one-lane back roads
so milk was likely trucked to the facility to be processed).

In high school I took an extra credit summer biology program. We did everything
from wading in a creek capturing the organisms that lived under the rocks to
visiting a sewage treatment plant. One day followed dairy products starting at
the farm and ending at the Borden plant. It was scheduled so while talking to
the farmer the truck arrived to pick up his milk. Most of the dairy farms in
the area were small, fewer than 100 cows, so the truck had to stop at several.

I don\'t know. As a kid, I saw this as:
- I have to carry the frigging gallon jug of milk back from the store
- I can get ice cream on the other side of town (yet too far to walk)

That seemed to be a common thread with these small places.  Almost as if
the people doing it were doing it for fun or sense of community (they
surely couldn\'t get rich selling cones to young kids off the beaten trail!)

I had the misconception as a kid that adults enjoyed what they were doing from
the short order cook at the Miss Troy diner to the scientists that talked to us
from the RPI outreach programs.

My folks worked in a factory. I knew, from early on, that many people
didn\'t like their jobs but did them in order to provide for their families.

A wakeup came at a Van Ronk show at the Cafe Lena. The Lena was a very intimate
venue and I was at a table next to two couples, young professionals by their
appearance. Their conversation was about how much each hated their job.

I\'ve had jobs I didn\'t like and they tended to last about three months before I
moved on.

SWMBO claims -- half jokingly -- that I\'ve been retired for ~40 years as I
\"have fun\" every day.

My last day at the 9-to-5 came about because my employer made a comment:
\"We don\'t have time to do it right. But, we can do it *over*, later!\"

Um, do you really think I want to waste some portion of my life doing something
that we both acknowledge is wrong with the ENTICEMENT (?) that I\'ll be
*allowed* to do it over again, later? \"Gee, can I please? Pretty please?\"

No, how about *you* do it and do it over. I\'m going to go do something that
I\'m going to enjoy and from which I\'m going to learn/grow. Which of us do you
think has a promising future ahead?

 

[rbowman]

On 09/18/2022 05:45 PM, Don Y wrote:

I don\'t know. As a kid, I saw this as:
- I have to carry the frigging gallon jug of milk back from the store
- I can get ice cream on the other side of town (yet too far to walk)

In a town of 2,000 no place is too far to walk. Wagner\'s was the
closest, right past Mrs. Ross\'s candy store. She may have sold other
things than penny candies but I was focused.

Stewart\'s was a chain and opened a store closer to the city (Troy).
Their claim to fame was the make-you-own-sundae. You got a scoop of ice
cream and headed to the counter with all the gooey stuff. iirc you could
also opt for a bare banana split.

There were other small dairies that ran an ice cream operation during
the summer months.

 

[Don Y]

On 9/18/2022 5:01 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 09/18/2022 05:45 PM, Don Y wrote:
I don\'t know.  As a kid, I saw this as:
- I have to carry the frigging gallon jug of milk back from the store
- I can get ice cream on the other side of town (yet too far to walk)

In a town of 2,000 no place is too far to walk. Wagner\'s was the closest, right
past Mrs. Ross\'s candy store. She may have sold other things than penny candies
but I was focused.

Town is ~25 sq miles. So, a walk between any two points can be as far as ~6
miles. Mom used to take us for walks to \"tire us out\" (preparation for nap
time). And, would complain that I would \"just keep walking\".

But, that doesn\'t mean she\'d let me just walk to anywhere I chose!

Downtown (that one block, 6 businesses) was about a mile and a half
from home. The ice cream place was easily that much farther PAST downtown
(we lived on the outskirts of town; dairy on the other outskirts)

Stewart\'s was a chain and opened a store closer to the city (Troy). Their claim
to fame was the make-you-own-sundae. You got a scoop of ice cream and headed to
the counter with all the gooey stuff. iirc you could also opt for a bare banana
split.

I think there was a Walgreen\'s across town (even farther than the dairy)
that had a \"fountain\". But, that\'s not the same sort of experience.

There were other small dairies that ran an ice cream operation during the
summer months.

As we had to rely on transport to the ice cream shop, it likely wasn\'t going
to happen. Parents got home from work and set about preparing supper, washing
work cloths, etc.

If we were going to make a pitch for a \"cold confection\", it would be for
lemon ice. But, that was a ~14 mile drive so even harder to come by!
If lucky, we might be nearby on the weekend (visiting relatives). But,
then had to cajole *them* to make the drive to lemon ice (as they could
get it anytime, it wasn\'t as big an attraction for them)

I\'ve tried making granitas but they aren\'t the same. I think they have
a special machine to get the ice as fine -- and consistent -- as they do.

 

[rbowman]

On 09/18/2022 06:34 PM, Don Y wrote:

If we were going to make a pitch for a \"cold confection\", it would be for
lemon ice. But, that was a ~14 mile drive so even harder to come by!
If lucky, we might be nearby on the weekend (visiting relatives). But,
then had to cajole *them* to make the drive to lemon ice (as they could
get it anytime, it wasn\'t as big an attraction for them)

Lemon ice wasn\'t an option. I\'m not sure I\'ve ever had it. Sherbert,
maybe, and heavy on the final r. Screw the \'mispronunciation\' crowd.

 

[Don Y]

On 9/18/2022 6:46 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 09/18/2022 06:34 PM, Don Y wrote:
If we were going to make a pitch for a \"cold confection\", it would be for
lemon ice.  But, that was a ~14 mile drive so even harder to come by!
If lucky, we might be nearby on the weekend (visiting relatives).  But,
then had to cajole *them* to make the drive to lemon ice (as they could
get it anytime, it wasn\'t as big an attraction for them)

Lemon ice wasn\'t an option. I\'m not sure I\'ve ever had it. Sherbert, maybe, and
heavy on the final r. Screw the \'mispronunciation\' crowd.

It\'s a Sicilian treat. The flavors available always included lemon
(though the lemon is not the tart lemon that you\'re likely used to;
more like the lemons I grow, here -- very sweet with a light
lemon flavor).

Beyond that, you never knew what would be available on a given day:
grape, cherry, chocolate (ick!), mango, almond, raspberry, etc.

Store would open on Memorial Day (\"start of summer\") and close
on Labor Day (\"end of summer\").

I make great ice cream and gelato. But, would love to be able
to make a good granita!

Also would love to be able to make a certain type of biscotti
that *I* like (not the biscotti that I make regularly for SWMBO).
But, haven\'t been able to find a recipe to start from (\"biscotti\"
is a generic term -- cookie -- so not very helpful; the bakery
that made them has long since lapsed into the next generation
of owners and they\'ve not preserved the original approach).

And, FWIW, SWMBO isn\'t keen on my first batch of granola as a
breakfast accompaniment (says I used too much cinnamon). But, is
now eating it by the handful as a snack! (which is unfortunate
as she will go through it much quicker at that dosage! <frown>)

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2022 17:34:12 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 9/18/2022 5:01 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/18/2022 05:45 PM, Don Y wrote:
I don\'t know.  As a kid, I saw this as:
- I have to carry the frigging gallon jug of milk back from the store
- I can get ice cream on the other side of town (yet too far to walk)

In a town of 2,000 no place is too far to walk. Wagner\'s was the closest, right
past Mrs. Ross\'s candy store. She may have sold other things than penny candies
but I was focused.

Town is ~25 sq miles. So, a walk between any two points can be as far as ~6
miles. Mom used to take us for walks to \"tire us out\" (preparation for nap
time). And, would complain that I would \"just keep walking\".

But, that doesn\'t mean she\'d let me just walk to anywhere I chose!

Downtown (that one block, 6 businesses) was about a mile and a half
from home. The ice cream place was easily that much farther PAST downtown
(we lived on the outskirts of town; dairy on the other outskirts)

Stewart\'s was a chain and opened a store closer to the city (Troy). Their claim
to fame was the make-you-own-sundae. You got a scoop of ice cream and headed to
the counter with all the gooey stuff. iirc you could also opt for a bare banana
split.

I think there was a Walgreen\'s across town (even farther than the dairy)
that had a \"fountain\". But, that\'s not the same sort of experience.

There were other small dairies that ran an ice cream operation during the
summer months.

As we had to rely on transport to the ice cream shop, it likely wasn\'t going
to happen. Parents got home from work and set about preparing supper, washing
work cloths, etc.

If we were going to make a pitch for a \"cold confection\", it would be for
lemon ice. But, that was a ~14 mile drive so even harder to come by!
If lucky, we might be nearby on the weekend (visiting relatives). But,
then had to cajole *them* to make the drive to lemon ice (as they could
get it anytime, it wasn\'t as big an attraction for them)

In New Orleans on a hot night everyone went out for snowballs. Paper
cones full of ground ice and drenched with your flavor(s) of choice,
sold at little pop-up stands on the sidewalk, no driving required.
Envision crowds of mostly kids.

 

[rbowman]

On 09/18/2022 10:29 PM, Don Y wrote:

And, FWIW, SWMBO isn\'t keen on my first batch of granola as a
breakfast accompaniment (says I used too much cinnamon). But, is
now eating it by the handful as a snack! (which is unfortunate
as she will go through it much quicker at that dosage! <frown>)

Next up DIY granola bars...

 

[Don Y]

On 9/19/2022 7:57 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 09/18/2022 10:29 PM, Don Y wrote:
And, FWIW, SWMBO isn\'t keen on my first batch of granola as a
breakfast accompaniment (says I used too much cinnamon).  But, is
now eating it by the handful as a snack!  (which is unfortunate
as she will go through it much quicker at that dosage!  <frown>)

Next up DIY granola bars...

Too chewy. She likes \"bars\" that are soft and cakey -- like brownies.
But, I don\'t make those unless there\'s a party with lots of potential
\"consumers\" as they go stale almost overnight!

(gotta wonder what sort of preservatives they put in those \"7-11\"
brownies that seem to taste the same after 5 years on a shelf!)