For All the Michael Moore Fans

Richard Henry · Jul 6, 2004

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:rApGc.11923$zl7.6777@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...

"slecky" <slecky@_muck_web.com> wrote in message
news:10ek87hlejb8o03@corp.supernews.com...
: Whatever Moore's mis-perceptions or fallacies, they pale in
comparison and
: are inconsequential compared to the Bush administrations' lies
and
: incompetence.
: Bush is an incompetent fool, and this administration did not
protect us.
: Let's not forget: 9/11 happened on George's watch.
: Bush has had fewer press conferences than any president in
modern history.
: Becuase he simply cannot be held accountable. He had to have
Cheney hold his
: hand in front of the 9/11 comission.
:
: I have not seen Fahrenheit 9/11 yet, but all the critiques I
have read so
: far have done little to show me blatant misrepresentations.
: To me, it is not about Michael Moore. It is about this country's
leaders
: being held accountable. That's called a democracy, remember what
that is?
:
:
: > The reality is the bin Laden's didn't leave the U.S. until
U.S.
: > airspace was re-opened
:
: That is not true.
:
: >and not at the arrangement of Bush but at the
: > urging of "terror czar" Richard Clark's of 9/11 commission
fame, who
: > informed them that the U.S. couldn't ensure their safety.
:
: Then why didn't we keep them at Andrews AFB for interrogation?
If my brother
: drove a plane into the Sears tower, do you think I could leave
the country
: without being questioned because I haven't talked to him in 10
years? Are
: you fuc--- kidding me??
:
: > You remember him. He was the guy who told reporters in an
August 2002
: > interview that Bush initiated a project, in the first week of
: > February, 2001, to "increase CIA resources, for example the
covert
: > action, fivefold (over Clinton's efforts),
:
: How could it be over Cinton's efforts if Clinton was not
President?
:
: > to go after al-Qaida" and then went on to make verbatim
contradictions
:
: Show me a verbatim contradiction. I want to see it.
:
: >of such statements before the 9/11 commission (with his new
Bush-bash book
: just hitting the
: > markets).
:
: Well, since it is a Bush-bash book, then I guess nothing in it
has any
: merit, right?
:
: It always amazes me how engineer types can be so analytical when
it comes to
: circuits and physics, but cannot parse false rhetoric or just
plain
: bullshit.
:

Here is a prime example of how to be completely neutral and
carefully analyze each and every statement of a "documentary" from
an award winning producer who is totally neutral in his politics!
No bias there! So we should all pay attention to his rambling
diatribe? Well -- Everyone should be heard! Makes things easier
to understand to have such an expert and intellectual review.

To bad he spoiled it by being a TOP POSTER!

He started out on top with a general comment, then inserted his comments all
through the message, at the appropriate places.

Richard Henry · Jul 6, 2004

"Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
news:40eaa06f$0$3070$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...

It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life as a voter
I fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's issue, and for
the second part, I fought against gun control, also a predominantly
women's issue.

Why is gun control a "women's issue"?

Greg Pierce · Jul 6, 2004

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:51:59 -0400, the highly esteemed Chuck Harris
enlightened us with these pearls of wisdom:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:45:44 -0400, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

Gosh Jim, you should have at least paid to see Harry Potter, and then
snuck into the MM film. That way he wouldn't be paid with good
republican money.

-Chuck Harris

[snip]

I went on the second day of its showing. The demand was so great that
you queued up in a line outside the theater (indoors, this is one of
those 40-theater thingies), and an off-duty cop checked your ticket
stub.

And Harry Potter isn't my thing, though all the granddaughters are avid
fans.

That's why I said to buy the Harry Potter ticket, and then watch the MM
movie.

I'm not as Republican as you might think. While registered* Republican,
and a serious hawk, I'm probably more attuned to Libertarian thought. I
absolutely don't like some Republican party stances as regards religion,
abortion, and gays (though I think we need it to be called civil union
and *not* marriage) .

I started out as an avid Democrat. All Marylanders must, I suppose. As I
started to get my career in place, I got pissed with the party's attitude
that the state knows what is best for you. At the last time I looked, 1/3
of the US population works for the "government"... and more than 50% of my
income goes to taxes and fees. Is it any wonder that the US standard of
living is heading for the dump?

I spent a few years vacillating over whether abortion rights were more
important than gun ownership. I finally decided that with the power that
women have achieved in our society, it would be nearly impossible for the
"right-to-lifer's" to completely outlaw abortion, so gun control became my
litmus test for a candidate. If a candidate was for gun control, I was
against absolutely against him!

It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life as a voter I
fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's issue, and for the
second part, I fought against gun control, also a predominantly women's
issue.

My beliefs fit firmly in the libertarian camp, but that doesn't really
matter politically, as the libertarians are a hopeless party. If you want
gun control and legal abortion, you vote democrat. If you want gun
freedom, and abortion, you vote Republican. The women are never going to
allow abortion to become illegal again, so that makes abortion pretty much
a moot issue.

-Chuck

As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.

--
Greg

Bill Garber · Jul 6, 2004

"Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com> wrote in message
news:jlCGc.10536$151.780@fed1read02...
:
: "Chuck Harris" <cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote in message
: news:40eaa06f$0$3070$61fed72c@news.rcn.com...
: >
: > It is kind of paradoxical, that for the first part of my life
as a voter
: > I fought for legalized abortion, a predominantly women's
issue, and for
: > the second part, I fought against gun control, also a
predominantly
: > women's issue.
:
: Why is gun control a "women's issue"?

Because they WANT the control, WE don't!

)

Bill @ GarberStreet Enterprizez };-)
Web Site - http://garberstreet.netfirms.com
Email - willy46pa @ comcast DOT net
Change DOT to a dot to contact me

---
This email ain't infected, dude!

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/04

John Larkin · Jul 6, 2004

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce <trash.can@nospam.com>
wrote:

As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.

It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or bruised.

John

Jim Thompson · Jul 6, 2004

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:51:59 -0400, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

[snip]

I started out as an avid Democrat. All Marylanders must
[snip]

-Chuck

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Roger Gt · Jul 6, 2004

"xray" <notreally@hotmail.invalid> wrote in message
news:cntke0lo914lloi175enc10pbep65pavcj@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:53:11 -0700, AZGuy
<jimnazSPAMOUT@cox.net> wrote:
:
: >I never fail to be amazed at how upset some people get at the
alleged
: >lies of Moore yet accept without a peep far more harmful lies
put out
: >by Bush and his stooges. Welcome to 1984.
: >
:
: I agree, but let's look at this.
:
: Moore is biased. Everyone seems acknowledge that. I do too. I
don't even
: think his movie is really that effective, but it IS an attempt
to get
: people thinking. Maybe a failed attempt. I doubt if very many
people
: leave the theater with significantly changed perspectives.
:

Moore = Mendacity

: With all the media in our lives our whole world seems to be
determined
: by "spin" and its success rate. So Michael Moore CAN be accued
of spin
: in this documentary. What, about similar issues like the lack of
WMDs,
: is escaping his attackers. Any skewing of information in this
movie does
: not come close to the world-wide propaganda blitz created by
this
: president and his advisers that started a war with justification
that
: has obviously been proven false.

I keep hearing that it was WMD. My understanding was it was due
to a failure to comply with the terms of surrender! The UN has
no teeth, and was on the take with bribes from the sale of OIL to
help the people of Iraq and other corruption. We took action due
to the non-compliance with the Surrender and the potential threat
to world peace from a tyrant.

: A whole damn war! With death and destruction, human upheaval,
grieving
: families on both sides, and massive economic cost and burden on
society.
: And I am talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan, where we never
really
: tried hard to get the real terrorists.

: In our recent rewrite, this war was to depose a brutal tyrant.
America
: wouldn't be there if that was the original story. The original
story was
: based on revenge and fear. Lets go kill some of those terrorist
bastards
: before they get us.

This was the only "Story" I ever heard. All the rest was only
discussion.

: I walked the ground in Vietnam with a rifle in my hands. Most of
the old
: farts in this group will remember that period well. I came out
of it
: proud for my service and knowing that eventually we may have to
go to
: war again, but hoping we would only do that when there was a
clear enemy
: and a reason beyond reproach.

As I served in the 1st Division. So I also hoped more wars could
be avoided, but not at any cost!

<snipped personal doubts>

: As for this newsgroup, why are so many engineers down on Michael
Moore?
: You guys are usually so logical in everything you do. The
biggest and
: most obvious lie (and how can you argue the WMD thing) was the
one that
: got this war started. Why the disjoint in attributing where the
lies
: are? Be reasonable. Attack the BIG liar, not the one who made
this
: little movie. -Rex

The BIG LIAR made the Movie!
It is questioned here because Engineers typically work with "Cold
Hard Facts" and want to see the data. More is a consummate liar,
and has proven his bias is not a coincidence. He is an
opportunist but he only attacks (like any terrorist) only one
side. He was OK with Clinton dismantling the intelligence
apparatus and crippling our military by inappropriate reductions
and use as "Peace Keepers" in places they should not be under the
command of the UN. (I didn't serve in the US ARMY to take orders
from the UN!)

No, M. Moore, is not a "Nice" man. Nor someone to be believed!

Roger Gt

Roger Gt · Jul 6, 2004

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
wrote in message
news:ucule0th723berupg7eo2ths1bfgtnh34e@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
<trash.can@nospam.com>
: wrote:
:
: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
bruised.
: John

"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!

Roger Gt

John Larkin · Jul 6, 2004

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:30:04 GMT, "Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com
wrote in message
news:ucule0th723berupg7eo2ths1bfgtnh34e@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
trash.can@nospam.com
: wrote:
:
: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.
: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
bruised.
: John

"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!

Roger Gt

That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.

John

Roger Gt · Jul 6, 2004

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
wrote in message
news:fp3me09k6n47rhjbbirkkemlrhi3jog8dc@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:30:04 GMT, "Roger Gt" <not@here.net>
wrote:
:
: >
: >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com>
: >wrote in message
: >news:ucule0th723berupg7eo2ths1bfgtnh34e@4ax.com...
: >: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
: ><trash.can@nospam.com>
: >: wrote:
: >:
: >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about
control.
: >: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
: >bruised.
: >: John
: >
: >
: >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
: >
: >Roger Gt
: >
:
: That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is
more
: likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned kids are just
: around the house a lot more than burglers.
: John

That's total BS! My entire family have handles and used guns for
as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while there have
been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed. That
whole story about the likelihood of killing your own family
members came from the Anti-American scum who think they should
control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less dangerous
than the political despots who would try to take them away!

BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could pick him
up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to kill them.
The mere presence of the capability to put them down is usually
enough!

My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times. (a Model 76 pump) My
Mother had a carry permit, since she was a Private investigator.
She fired expert with both hands. I had a carry permit when I
turned 15, since I worked with my mother on many cases. My
Experience and training in the military convinced me that only a
corrupt government has anything to fear from an armed public! I
don't support such corruption!

%T

James Beck · Jul 6, 2004

In article <fp3me09k6n47rhjbbirkkemlrhi3jog8dc@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.

John

And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."
~ George Orwell as member of Home Guard, author of "1984"

Jim Thompson · Jul 6, 2004

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
<jim@reallykillersystems.com> wrote:

In article <fp3me09k6n47rhjbbirkkemlrhi3jog8dc@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.

John

And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."
~ George Orwell as member of Home Guard, author of "1984"

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Richard Henry · Jul 6, 2004

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:mHEGc.7219$Ud4.215@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...

My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times.

So much for Gramps. How was she with wildlife?

Jim Thompson · Jul 6, 2004

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:44:27 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com>
wrote:

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:mHEGc.7219$Ud4.215@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...

My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times.

So much for Gramps. How was she with wildlife?

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

nan · Jul 6, 2004

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:eZCGc.7186$Nq2.5422@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...

He was OK with Clinton dismantling the intelligence
apparatus and crippling our military by inappropriate reductions

And you are OK with Bush sending young soldiers to die in an unnecesary war,
poorly planned, and ill-equipped?

and use as "Peace Keepers" in places they should not be under the
command of the UN.
(I didn't serve in the US ARMY to take orders
from the UN!)

Well, that's good. How about Halliburton? Will you take orders from
Halliburton?

No, M. Moore, is not a "Nice" man. Nor someone to be believed!

You don't have to believe him. Check out the facts for yourself. If you have
the time. Because you won't get them on the evening news.

John Larkin · Jul 6, 2004

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
<jim@reallykillersystems.com> wrote:

In article <fp3me09k6n47rhjbbirkkemlrhi3jog8dc@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.

John

And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.

Actually, I like guns. I had a beautiful Ruger stainless
police-special revolver, but a burgler got it. I came in just as he
was leaving out the back door, figured out what was going on, and did
*not* chase him; it was full of '38 wad cutters, and I bet they hurt.
If I had entered a minute sooner, he probably would have shot me with
my gun, or maybe with his own. But it's just a fact that the US has a
murder rate that's 10x or so that of other civilized countries, and
guns are mostly responsible; it's such an easy, almost antiseptic, way
to kill. Television shows and movies mostly glorify guns and the joy
of killing with them; it's hard to find a newspaper movie section that
doesn't have a couple of guns prominently displayed in the ads. The
very fact that gun lovers admire their weapons so much tells the
story.

I hear shots in the night often, as most people who live in big cities
do. I guess we'll just have to stay used to it.

"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's
cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays
there."

Rifles are good, because you can't conceal them very well. What would
old George think of 12-year olds running around with automatic
pistols, killing the kids from down the block?

John

Rich Grise · Jul 7, 2004

on Tuesday 06 July 2004 12:14 pm, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce <trash.can@nospam.com
wrote:

As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.

It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or bruised.

John

Larkin, you idiot. Gun control is about whether or not to let Da Gubmint
turn the US into the Fourth Reich.
--

Rich

Scott Stephens · Jul 7, 2004

Mark Fergerson wrote:

Scott Stephens wrote:

The Democrats and Republicans are like a crack-whore mom and a
drunken dad, threatening to burn the house down if they can't spend
the children s milk-money on their personal drug of choice.

That is simply beautiful. May I quote you?

Uh, I think there is a better quote than that around somewhere, I don't
think I invented that metaphor. Can't remember where I got it.

--
Scott

**********************************

DIY Piezo-Gyro, PCB Drill Bot & More Soon!

http://home.comcast.net/~scottxs/

**********************************

Robert C Monsen · Jul 7, 2004

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:mHEGc.7219$Ud4.215@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com
wrote in message
news:fp3me09k6n47rhjbbirkkemlrhi3jog8dc@4ax.com...
: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:30:04 GMT, "Roger Gt" <not@here.net
wrote:
:
:
: >"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com
: >wrote in message
: >news:ucule0th723berupg7eo2ths1bfgtnh34e@4ax.com...
: >: On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:45 -0700, Greg Pierce
: ><trash.can@nospam.com
: >: wrote:
: >:
: >: >As they say, gun control isn't about guns, it's about
control.
: >: It's about people being dead, instead of merely yelled at or
: >bruised.
: >: John
:
:
: >"Gun Control" means hitting the intended target everytime!
:
: >Roger Gt
:
:
: That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is
more
: likely to kill his own kids than a burglar. Damned kids are just
: around the house a lot more than burglers.
: John

That's total BS! My entire family have handles and used guns for
as far back and we have records (About 1453) and while there have
been some mishaps, (During war) no one has been killed. That
whole story about the likelihood of killing your own family
members came from the Anti-American scum who think they should
control everyone's lives. Besides guns are a lot less dangerous
than the political despots who would try to take them away!

Talk to a policeman or a fireman. All of their organizations are for
gun control. Why would that be, if gun ownership was 'helping' them?

BTW, My brother kneecapped a burglar, so the police could pick him
up a couple blocks away. You do not always have to kill them.
The mere presence of the capability to put them down is usually
enough!

Wow! Cool! Some poor teenager gets kneecapped cause he crawled into
the wrong house looking for a TV set. Probably on disability right
now. I guess your brother feels really proud of that! Who wouldn't?

My Grandmother hated Guns, but she could bring down a dear at 200
yards with her carbine. And did many times. (a Model 76 pump) My
Mother had a carry permit, since she was a Private investigator.
She fired expert with both hands. I had a carry permit when I
turned 15, since I worked with my mother on many cases. My
Experience and training in the military convinced me that only a
corrupt government has anything to fear from an armed public! I
don't support such corruption!

An army of grandmas armed with hunting rifles is going to hold back
those revennooers? Unlike you, they have a 'well trained militia',
with m16s and Apache attack helicopters. What do you and the grannies
have? A few rusty hunting rifles? The whole argument, which is used
again and again, is silly.

Our best weapon against those revennooers is our vote. Our best weapon
against crime is more opportunity for the poor, not more guns.

Bob Monsen

Chris Carlen · Jul 7, 2004

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 21:23:42 GMT, James Beck
jim@reallykillersystems.com> wrote:

In article <fp3me09k6n47rhjbbirkkemlrhi3jog8dc@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com says...

That's the theory, I guess. Fact is, the average gun owner is more
likely to kill his own kids than a burgler. Damned kids are just
around the house a lot more than burglers.

John

And where did you get that "fact"????
What a crock of crap.
If you don't like guns, fine, don't own one, but don't spout the same
old crap.

Actually, I like guns. I had a beautiful Ruger stainless
police-special revolver, but a burgler got it. I came in just as he
was leaving out the back door, figured out what was going on, and did
*not* chase him; it was full of '38 wad cutters, and I bet they hurt.
If I had entered a minute sooner, he probably would have shot me with
my gun, or maybe with his own. But it's just a fact that the US has a
murder rate that's 10x or so that of other civilized countries, and
guns are mostly responsible; it's such an easy, almost antiseptic, way
to kill. Television shows and movies mostly glorify guns and the joy
of killing with them; it's hard to find a newspaper movie section that
doesn't have a couple of guns prominently displayed in the ads. The
very fact that gun lovers admire their weapons so much tells the
story.

I hear shots in the night often, as most people who live in big cities
do. I guess we'll just have to stay used to it.

Are you *serious*? What part of the town do you live in? I'm used to
east coast segregated towns with "nice" sections, "bad" sections and
"ghettos" (the parts that are so bad they'll turn your car over and set
it on fire if you stop at a light in the daytime).

I lived in a "bad" part of town (Bethlehem, PA) once for about a year.
When I left PA in 1999, the adjacent Allentown was experiencing multiple
instances of gunfire per night, and about 7 actual shootings per month.

For a relatively small town, and considering that it wasn't 1/10 as bad
only a decade prior, I considered it a case of real "going down the tubes."

But the bad parts of Bethlehem remained fairly constant over the years,
then began to spread. There were also housing projects in which the
danger level was high in broad daylight.

I just don't see anything of similar seriousness here in the Bay Area,
though I have tried to steer clear of the worst parts of Oakland except
for the daytime.

But in SF I find it hard to believe that a fellow of your stature would
be experiencing such "sounds."

Good day!

--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@earthlink.net
Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19

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