Electronic Challenge Help Requested

[Winston]

VWWall wrote:

(...)

One of HP's first products, the audio oscillators, used a "light bulb" in the feed-back loop. I still have a 200AB that
works as well as when new. I replaced the line cord, which had given in to Los Angeles smog.

I had the 19" rackmount version many years ago.
Wien bridge oscillator.

Very nifty. I hope the guy that stole it is enjoying it.

--Winston

Hey Tony Herrera! Hi there, ya little creep.

 

[Jamie]

VWWall wrote:

Winston wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

(...)

In my youth I used to trickle charge my car battery using a light bulb
and a diode, straight off-line... polarized plug to avoid a "hot" car
body. The light bulb served a secondary use... kept the under-hood
temperature reasonably warm in Winter ;-)


Yup. Light bulbs only *appear* simple.

A series light bulb was very useful in tracking down
power supply shorts in TVs and radios, I hear tell.

I recall a hobby magazine article about a little plunge EDM
'tap burner' that used a light bulb as a current limiter.

It wasn't terribly efficient. Some miracles are like that.

--Winston


One of HP's first products, the audio oscillators, used a "light bulb"
in the feed-back loop. I still have a 200AB that works as well as when
new. I replaced the line cord, which had given in to Los Angeles smog.

I had a Macintosh rack mount early style solid state stereo amplifier

that used incandescent lamps in the bias circuit for stability. You had
to tighten the lamps now and then..

Jamie

 

[ABLE1]

Anyone know a proper device that can do this and be small enough
to fit
into the electrical box behind the fixture??

A resistor. Whether you can find one that's got a low enough
resistance
to work and will still fit in the box is going to require some
experimentation.

If I didn't have a handful of power resistors of the right ratings
and
values to try, I'd start with a handful of bulbs -- does a 7W bulb
hold
the output close enough to 0V? A 10W? 25W? etc.

Then, once you've found a bulb to do the job, figure out the
current, use
that to figure out the resistance and power, and slap it in.

Alternately, observe that a 14400 ohm resistor dissipates 1W at
120V --
so you can get yourself a handful of 1W, 15000 ohm resistors, and
start
connecting them in.

(Better yet, start with 20k-ohm 1W resistors, or higher -- you
really
don't want to be running them right up against their power
ratings).

If you're lucky, you won't need much.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion output is
connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and when power is
applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps. For
what it is worth when the motion is tripped the current draw is 1.6
amps.

I have on the way to me at this time a number of 20k ohm 2 watt
resistors for some experiments. Hopefully this will be the ultimate
fix for this project.

I do have an alternative solution to make this work. That would be
to connect one of the bulbs and the sense wire of the module to the
motion output and the other bulb to the output of the module. What
happens is that when the motion is activated it turns on the one
bulb and since this output is connected to sense wire of the module
it then turns on the other bulb when the module is activated. The
only downside of this setup is that when the module is trigger from
the alarm panel it only turns on one bulb. Not really the desired
function but I have tested this and it does work.

I would like to thank all that have helped me brain storm this
challenge. Please give yourselves a pat on the back along with a
few attaboys!!

Ya'll have a good rest of the week.

Les

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:

Anyone know a proper device that can do this and be small enough to fit
into the electrical box behind the fixture??

A resistor. Whether you can find one that's got a low enough resistance
to work and will still fit in the box is going to require some
experimentation.

If I didn't have a handful of power resistors of the right ratings and
values to try, I'd start with a handful of bulbs -- does a 7W bulb hold
the output close enough to 0V? A 10W? 25W? etc.

Then, once you've found a bulb to do the job, figure out the current, use
that to figure out the resistance and power, and slap it in.

Alternately, observe that a 14400 ohm resistor dissipates 1W at 120V -- so you can get yourself a handful of 1W, 15000
ohm resistors, and start
connecting them in.

(Better yet, start with 20k-ohm 1W resistors, or higher -- you really
don't want to be running them right up against their power ratings).

If you're lucky, you won't need much.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com


Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion output is connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and
when power is applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps.

Ouch. That's a lot.

For what it is worth when the motion is
tripped the current draw is 1.6 amps.

That's 720 mW per resistor with the light on.
The '2 W' rating is for free air, so please don't box the resistor tightly.
Consider the heatsink - compatible resistors so you can get rid of heat.

I have on the way to me at this time a number of 20k ohm 2 watt resistors for some experiments. Hopefully this will be
the ultimate fix for this project.

George Simon just mentioned that you're still gonna end up with 75 V
if you pull down that leakage current with a 20K resistor.
Is that far enough below the threshold voltage of the sense line on
your module? I Dunno (TM).

We know the threshold voltage is above 0.095 V because that is what
your first bulb leaves you when you connect it as you mention below.

There is a whole bunch of uncertainty between 75 V and 0.095 V!

You now have a purpose for that nifty Variac autotransformer you've
been hiding. Connect it to the sense line and determine just what
that threshold voltage is, for each one of your modules, I advise.

Work Safely (Other TM)

I do have an alternative solution to make this work. That would be to connect one of the bulbs and the sense wire of the
module to the motion output and the other bulb to the output of the module. What happens is that when the motion is
activated it turns on the one bulb and since this output is connected to sense wire of the module it then turns on the
other bulb when the module is activated. The only downside of this setup is that when the module is trigger from the
alarm panel it only turns on one bulb. Not really the desired function but I have tested this and it does work.

I would like to thank all that have helped me brain storm this challenge. Please give yourselves a pat on the back along
with a few attaboys!!

Ya'll have a good rest of the week.

Back 'atcha, Les.

--Winston

 

[John Fields]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:03:22 -0400, "ABLE1"
<royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion output is
connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and when power is
applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps. For
what it is worth when the motion is tripped the current draw is 1.6
amps.

---
Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or the
current into the lamps?

--
JF

 

[ABLE1]

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:vrrlm7ti4i4q7og9j921v172f6ltt3hpep@4ax.com...

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:03:22 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion output
is
connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and when power is
applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps.
For
what it is worth when the motion is tripped the current draw is
1.6
amps.

---
Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or the
current into the lamps?

--
JF

John,

That was the current draw of the lamps when OFF(.01amps) and then
when ON(1.6amps).

I don't have a powerstat of any kind to test the trip point of the
sense wire. But, I am thinking that really should not matter much.

At this point I am still waiting for the resistors to come in. Then
I can play (safely) or have some controlled diagnostic evaluations
with out any serious catastrophic failures.

Thanks,

Les

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message news:vrrlm7ti4i4q7og9j921v172f6ltt3hpep@4ax.com...

(...)

Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or the
current into the lamps?

--
JF


John,

That was the current draw of the lamps when OFF(.01amps) and then when ON(1.6amps).

I don't have a powerstat of any kind to test the trip point of the sense wire. But, I am thinking that really should not
matter much.

It'll matter if you need to provide step - down transformers
on the 'slave' outputs of your PIR sensor lights in order to
drive your Insteon modules properly.

I bet the engineers at Smarthome know the threshold voltage
of the sense input on Item# 2475S2 by heart and can get you
a good answer very quickly:

http://www.smarthome.com/contactus.html

At this point I am still waiting for the resistors to come in. Then I can play (safely) or have some controlled
diagnostic evaluations with out any serious catastrophic failures.

--Winston

 

[John Fields]

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:01:57 -0400, "ABLE1"
<royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:vrrlm7ti4i4q7og9j921v172f6ltt3hpep@4ax.com...
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:03:22 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion output
is
connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and when power is
applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps.
For
what it is worth when the motion is tripped the current draw is
1.6
amps.

---
Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or the
current into the lamps?

--
JF


John,

That was the current draw of the lamps when OFF(.01amps) and then
when ON(1.6amps).

---
OK, but where did you measure the current?

Between the mains and the motion detector or between the lamp sockets
and the lamps?




--
JF

 

[ABLE1]

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:2hfnm7hron2uuq7jeatab3c03btaagimih@4ax.com...

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:01:57 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:vrrlm7ti4i4q7og9j921v172f6ltt3hpep@4ax.com...
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:03:22 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion
output
is
connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and when power
is
applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps.
For
what it is worth when the motion is tripped the current draw is
1.6
amps.

---
Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or
the
current into the lamps?

--
JF


John,

That was the current draw of the lamps when OFF(.01amps) and then
when ON(1.6amps).

---
OK, but where did you measure the current?

Between the mains and the motion detector or between the lamp
sockets
and the lamps?




--
JF

Between the output of the motion and the lamp(socket).

The red wire off the motion detector that I am having the initial
problem with having the leakage voltage and the lamp socket - lamp -
neutral(load)

Les

 

[ABLE1]

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jkg7no02sar@news4.newsguy.com...

ABLE1 wrote:

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:vrrlm7ti4i4q7og9j921v172f6ltt3hpep@4ax.com...

(...)

Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or
the
current into the lamps?

--
JF


John,

That was the current draw of the lamps when OFF(.01amps) and then
when ON(1.6amps).

I don't have a powerstat of any kind to test the trip point of
the sense wire. But, I am thinking that really should not
matter much.

It'll matter if you need to provide step - down transformers
on the 'slave' outputs of your PIR sensor lights in order to
drive your Insteon modules properly.

I bet the engineers at Smarthome know the threshold voltage
of the sense input on Item# 2475S2 by heart and can get you
a good answer very quickly:

http://www.smarthome.com/contactus.html

At this point I am still waiting for the resistors to come in.
Then I can play (safely) or have some controlled
diagnostic evaluations with out any serious catastrophic
failures.

--Winston

BUT, I do not need to know.
Not necessary.
Not re-inventing the wheel.
Just making it turn to my desires.

Les

 

[John Fields]

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:19:39 -0400, "ABLE1"
<royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:2hfnm7hron2uuq7jeatab3c03btaagimih@4ax.com...
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:01:57 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:vrrlm7ti4i4q7og9j921v172f6ltt3hpep@4ax.com...
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:03:22 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion
output
is
connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and when power
is
applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps.
For
what it is worth when the motion is tripped the current draw is
1.6
amps.

---
Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or
the
current into the lamps?

--
JF


John,

That was the current draw of the lamps when OFF(.01amps) and then
when ON(1.6amps).

---
OK, but where did you measure the current?

Between the mains and the motion detector or between the lamp
sockets
and the lamps?




--
JF

Between the output of the motion and the lamp(socket).

The red wire off the motion detector that I am having the initial
problem with having the leakage voltage and the lamp socket - lamp -
neutral(load)

Les

---
Les,

This should work for you: (View using a fixed-pitch font)


.. MOTION DET
.. +------------+
.. | R1 | C1 R2
.. | +-[12k]-+-|-[330nF]-[100]-+--------+
.. | | | | |K |A
..120AC>-|--+-O | | [1N4002] [1N4002]
.. | | | | |D1 D2|
.. | | <---O | | | +---->ACOUT
.. | | | | | |
.. +----------|-+ | +----+ |NO NC
.. | | |+ | O-> |<-O-+
.. | | [10ľ][COIL]- -|K1 |
.. | | C2| | COM O [1000]
.. | | +----+ | |R3
.. +-----------------|--------|------+ |
.. | | |
..120AC>------------------------------+--------+-----------+

R1 is the OFF resistance of whatever's doing the switching in the
motion detector, C1 is a lossless reactance which, in series with R2
and the resistance of the relay coil, will provide the impedance
necessary to limit the current in the coil to 6.25mA when the motion
detector is hot.

R2 is used to limit the current into the diodes to a safe value if the
motion detector goes hot on either the negative or positive peak of
the mains.

The relay is an OMRON G5V-1 24VDC:

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g5v1.pdf

which has a 24VDC coil with a resistance of 3840 ohms and is driven by
half-wave rectified AC smoothed by C2

R3 is used to provide a relatively low-impedance path to ground for
the leakage current from the motion detector and makes sure that the
voltage into C1 won't be high enough to fire the relay.

When the motion detector goes hot the mains voltage will be impressed
across R3 for a few milliseconds (until the relay disengages from the
NC terminal, so during that time the resistor will be dissipating
quite a bit of power.

Assuming that the input to the resistor was a rectangular waveform 170
volts high and 5 milliseconds wide would make the power dissipated by
the resistor about 29 watts, but for 5 milliseconds that comes out to
145 millijoules.

A likely candidate for that resistor would be a 1/2 watt Panasonic
ERG(X)S:

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/AOA0000/AOA0000CE18.pdf


which can take a 50 watt hit for 50ms.

I actually built the circuit and tested it with a 1/4 watt carbon
film, and although it worked OK, I think that's a little too close for
comfort.

Here's a sim just for fun:

Version 4
SHEET 1 1332 744
WIRE -192 -80 -384 -80
WIRE 128 -80 -144 -80
WIRE 672 -80 176 -80
WIRE 1056 -80 720 -80
WIRE -16 -16 -80 -16
WIRE 96 -16 64 -16
WIRE 208 -16 96 -16
WIRE 240 -16 208 -16
WIRE 416 -16 384 -16
WIRE 528 -16 416 -16
WIRE 416 16 416 -16
WIRE 528 16 528 -16
WIRE -80 112 -80 -16
WIRE -80 112 -288 112
WIRE 0 112 -80 112
WIRE 96 112 96 -16
WIRE 96 112 80 112
WIRE 208 112 208 -16
WIRE 768 112 208 112
WIRE 928 112 768 112
WIRE 1104 112 1008 112
WIRE 768 128 768 112
WIRE -288 160 -288 112
WIRE 16 208 16 160
WIRE 528 240 528 80
WIRE 608 240 528 240
WIRE 944 240 944 160
WIRE 944 240 608 240
WIRE 768 304 768 208
WIRE -288 320 -288 240
WIRE 528 320 528 240
WIRE 608 320 608 240
WIRE 832 320 816 320
WIRE 944 320 944 240
WIRE 944 320 896 320
WIRE -288 448 -288 400
WIRE 16 448 16 288
WIRE 16 448 -288 448
WIRE 64 448 64 160
WIRE 64 448 16 448
WIRE 416 448 416 80
WIRE 416 448 64 448
WIRE 528 448 528 400
WIRE 528 448 416 448
WIRE 608 448 608 384
WIRE 608 448 528 448
WIRE 768 448 768 384
WIRE 768 448 608 448
WIRE 816 448 816 368
WIRE 816 448 768 448
WIRE 992 448 992 160
WIRE 992 448 816 448
WIRE -384 480 -384 -80
WIRE -192 480 -192 -80
WIRE -192 480 -384 480
WIRE -144 480 -144 -80
WIRE 128 480 128 -80
WIRE 128 480 -144 480
WIRE 176 480 176 -80
WIRE 672 480 672 -80
WIRE 672 480 176 480
WIRE 720 480 720 -80
WIRE 1056 480 1056 -80
WIRE 1056 480 720 480
WIRE -288 560 -288 448
FLAG -288 560 0
SYMBOL voltage -288 144 R0
WINDOW 3 24 96 Invisible 2
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 12 103 Left 2
SYMATTR Value SINE(0 170 60)
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMBOL res 80 -32 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R4
SYMATTR Value 12k
SYMBOL sw 96 112 M270
WINDOW 0 -29 -29 VRight 2
WINDOW 3 -59 -33 VRight 2
SYMATTR InstName S1
SYMBOL voltage 16 192 R0
WINDOW 0 -44 102 Left 2
WINDOW 3 -242 110 Invisible 2
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName V3
SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 24 .0417 1u 0 1)
SYMBOL sw 768 400 R180
WINDOW 0 39 5 Right 2
WINDOW 3 44 -22 Right 2
SYMATTR InstName S2
SYMBOL res 752 112 R0
SYMATTR InstName R3
SYMATTR Value 1000
SYMBOL Digital\\inv 896 384 R180
WINDOW 3 8 104 Invisible 2
SYMATTR Value trise 1u tfall 1u vhigh 24
SYMATTR InstName A1
SYMBOL res 544 304 M0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 3840
SYMBOL cap 304 -32 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C2
SYMATTR Value 330n
SYMBOL diode 544 16 M0
WINDOW 0 -37 38 Left 2
WINDOW 3 -52 68 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName D5
SYMATTR Value ES1D
SYMBOL cap 592 320 R0
SYMATTR InstName C3
SYMATTR Value 10ľ
SYMBOL diode 400 80 M180
WINDOW 0 38 31 Left 2
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName D6
SYMATTR Value ES1D
SYMBOL sw 1024 112 M270
WINDOW 0 -19 -21 VRight 2
WINDOW 3 -49 -25 VRight 2
SYMATTR InstName S3
SYMBOL res 400 -32 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 100
SYMBOL voltage -288 304 R0
WINDOW 3 24 96 Invisible 2
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 0 12 103 Left 2
SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 1500 .104155 1u 1u 10u)
SYMATTR InstName V2
TEXT -272 504 Left 2 !.model SW SW(Ron=.01 Roff=1G Vt=12 Vh=0)
TEXT -272 536 Left 2 !.tran 0 1 0 10u
TEXT 1096 112 Left 2 ;>
TEXT 1120 112 Left 2 ;OUT
TEXT -128 -112 Left 2 ;MOTION DETECTOR
TEXT 328 -112 Left 2 ;RECTIFIER - FILTER
TEXT 840 -112 Left 2 ;SPDT RELAY
TEXT -320 -112 Left 2 ;MAINS


--
JF

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:40:48 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 20:19:39 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:2hfnm7hron2uuq7jeatab3c03btaagimih@4ax.com...
On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 16:01:57 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:vrrlm7ti4i4q7og9j921v172f6ltt3hpep@4ax.com...
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 18:03:22 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:


Update Info:

I was on site today and did some testing. When the motion
output
is
connected to the bulbs and the motion is stable and when power
is
applied(for Winston) the current is .01 amps or 10 milliamps.
For
what it is worth when the motion is tripped the current draw is
1.6
amps.

---
Is that the current into the motion detector from the mains or
the
current into the lamps?

--
JF


John,

That was the current draw of the lamps when OFF(.01amps) and then
when ON(1.6amps).

---
OK, but where did you measure the current?

Between the mains and the motion detector or between the lamp
sockets
and the lamps?




--
JF

Between the output of the motion and the lamp(socket).

The red wire off the motion detector that I am having the initial
problem with having the leakage voltage and the lamp socket - lamp -
neutral(load)

Les

---
Les,

This should work for you: (View using a fixed-pitch font)


. MOTION DET
. +------------+
. | R1 | C1 R2
. | +-[12k]-+-|-[330nF]-[100]-+--------+
. | | | | |K |A
.120AC>-|--+-O | | [1N4002] [1N4002]
. | | | | |D1 D2|
. | | <---O | | | +---->ACOUT
. | | | | | |
. +----------|-+ | +----+ |NO NC
. | | |+ | O-> |<-O-+
. | | [10ľ][COIL]- -|K1 |
. | | C2| | COM O [1000]
. | | +----+ | |R3
. +-----------------|--------|------+ |
. | | |
.120AC>------------------------------+--------+-----------+

R1 is the OFF resistance of whatever's doing the switching in the
motion detector, C1 is a lossless reactance which, in series with R2
and the resistance of the relay coil, will provide the impedance
necessary to limit the current in the coil to 6.25mA when the motion
detector is hot.

R2 is used to limit the current into the diodes to a safe value if the
motion detector goes hot on either the negative or positive peak of
the mains.

The relay is an OMRON G5V-1 24VDC:

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g5v1.pdf

which has a 24VDC coil with a resistance of 3840 ohms and is driven by
half-wave rectified AC smoothed by C2

---
Oops...

I inadvertently used a 24VDC Omron GS5-1, thinking it was a G5V-1, so
the coil drive may be too high...


--
JF

 

[ABLE1]

Les,

This should work for you: (View using a fixed-pitch font)


. MOTION DET
. +------------+
. | R1 | C1 R2
. | +-[12k]-+-|-[330nF]-[100]-+--------+
. | | | | |K |A
.120AC>-|--+-O | | [1N4002] [1N4002]
. | | | | |D1 D2|
. | | <---O | | | +---->ACOUT
. | | | | | |
. +----------|-+ | +----+ |NO NC
. | | |+ | O-> |<-O-+
. | | [10ľ][COIL]- -|K1 |
. | | C2| | COM O [1000]
. | | +----+ | |R3
. +-----------------|--------|------+ |
. | | |
.120AC>------------------------------+--------+-----------+

R1 is the OFF resistance of whatever's doing the switching in the
motion detector, C1 is a lossless reactance which, in series with
R2
and the resistance of the relay coil, will provide the impedance
necessary to limit the current in the coil to 6.25mA when the
motion
detector is hot.

R2 is used to limit the current into the diodes to a safe value if
the
motion detector goes hot on either the negative or positive peak
of
the mains.

The relay is an OMRON G5V-1 24VDC:

http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g5v1.pdf

which has a 24VDC coil with a resistance of 3840 ohms and is
driven by
half-wave rectified AC smoothed by C2

R3 is used to provide a relatively low-impedance path to ground
for
the leakage current from the motion detector and makes sure that
the
voltage into C1 won't be high enough to fire the relay.

When the motion detector goes hot the mains voltage will be
impressed
across R3 for a few milliseconds (until the relay disengages from
the
NC terminal, so during that time the resistor will be dissipating
quite a bit of power.

Assuming that the input to the resistor was a rectangular waveform
170
volts high and 5 milliseconds wide would make the power dissipated
by
the resistor about 29 watts, but for 5 milliseconds that comes out
to
145 millijoules.

A likely candidate for that resistor would be a 1/2 watt Panasonic
ERG(X)S:

http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf/AOA0000/AOA0000CE18.pdf


which can take a 50 watt hit for 50ms.

I actually built the circuit and tested it with a 1/4 watt carbon
film, and although it worked OK, I think that's a little too close
for
comfort.

Here's a sim just for fun:

John,

Thanks for all the input. Very interesting. Today I was on site
again and did some testing.

I had with me the 20k 2 watt resistors. What I found was that with
one resistor from the motion detector output to Neutral it pulled
leakage voltage down to 16.5vac. When the sense wire from the
module was connected the module was triggered and the lights turned
ON.

Applied 2 resistors in parallel and the voltage dropped to about
8vac and again when the sense wire was connected the module was
triggered and the lights turned ON.

Applied 3 resistors in parallel and the voltage dropped to about
5.5vac and again when the sense wire was connected the module was
triggered and the lights turned ON.

Applied 4 resistors in parallel and the voltage dropped to about
4.2vac and it was at this point the module did not trigger. So it
would seem that the threshold voltage of the sense wire is
approximately 5vac.

By my crude testing I am thinking a 3.9k 2 watt resistor should do
the trick.

Any thoughts??

Thanks,

Les

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:

(...)

Thanks for all the input. Very interesting. Today I was on site again and did some testing.

I had with me the 20k 2 watt resistors. What I found was that with one resistor from the motion detector output to
Neutral it pulled leakage voltage down to 16.5vac.

So 0.825 mA of leakage current, not 10 mA.

When the sense wire from the module was connected the module was
triggered and the lights turned ON.

Applied 2 resistors in parallel and the voltage dropped to about 8vac and again when the sense wire was connected the
module was triggered and the lights turned ON.

Applied 3 resistors in parallel and the voltage dropped to about 5.5vac and again when the sense wire was connected the
module was triggered and the lights turned ON.

Applied 4 resistors in parallel and the voltage dropped to about 4.2vac and it was at this point the module did not
trigger. So it would seem that the threshold voltage of the sense wire is approximately 5vac.

Ouch. That's pretty low.

By my crude testing I am thinking a 3.9k 2 watt resistor should do the trick.

3.7 W into a 2 W resistor is a non-starter.


http://ww2.pulseeng.com/products/datasheets/LT2007_04.pdf

This is the Pulse Engineering 020-5371.0 (Digikey BV020-5371.0-ND).
It is a 120 to 13.5 V transformer that will give you
about 2.5 VAC when off and 13.5 VAC when on, to drive
your module from the output of your PIR light.

It measures 23 mm x 22 mm x 19 mm.
One part. Very little wasted power.

--Winston

 

[P E Schoen]

"ABLE1" wrote in message
news:qe79r.147553$P92.107545@en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com...

Again sorry for any confusion. I agree terminologies may be part
of the problem here. It really does make sense to me, really.

Here is a .pdf of the Outside Motion Head that turns ON Flood
Lights at night.

http://www.rabweb.com/downloads/instructions/stl110.pdf

Look at page 5, it shows the wiring configuration. In it's present
condition the unit works just fine. What I am trying to do is utilize a
automation device to turn ON the lights when a the alarm system goes into
alarm.

This is the quick start guide for the automation device.
See page 2.
http://www.smarthome.com/manuals/2475S2qsg.pdf

This set up works just fine with most motion heads. Since the
sense input to the module will see a zero volts due to it being
connected thru a open contact of a relay.

However with the above motion head it has this sneak voltage
leak that when connected turns on the module. I am looking
for a work around to make this work.

Again, I think I need some component of some value that would
get installed between the output of the motion detector and
neutral to pull down the voltage to zero vac. What would be
that component?? I have a space restriction so installing a 120vac relay
or
coil won't work.

I hope this makes more sense now. Thanks for all the thoughts.
I know someone in here know the answer to the question just
having trouble spelling out the question.

Thanks again,

I'm just catching up on your post and it seems that there may be no good
reason to use the sense lead at all, in which case it may be deactivated. I
think its only purpose is to require the motion detector AND the automation
device to be turned ON in order to light the lamps. In other words, a wired
AND gate.

If you want to be able to turn on the lamps EITHER because motion is
detected OR there is an alarm condition which triggers the automation
device, you want a wired OR gate. So you should be able to connect the
switched output lead of the automation device to the red lead of the motion
detector which is also connected to the lamps. So the lights will turn ON
anytime motion is detected OR there is an alarm.

That seems almost too simple. Maybe I'm missing something?

Good luck,

Paul

 

[Winston]

P E Schoen wrote:

(...)

I'm just catching up on your post and it seems that there may be no good reason to use the sense lead at all, in which
case it may be deactivated. I think its only purpose is to require the motion detector AND the automation device to be
turned ON in order to light the lamps. In other words, a wired AND gate.

If you want to be able to turn on the lamps EITHER because motion is detected OR there is an alarm condition which
triggers the automation device, you want a wired OR gate. So you should be able to connect the switched output lead of
the automation device to the red lead of the motion detector which is also connected to the lamps. So the lights will
turn ON anytime motion is detected OR there is an alarm.

That seems almost too simple. Maybe I'm missing something?

I believe that is the case Paul, though I agree with your larger idea.

From the readings supplied by the OP Les, (ABLE1)
it is pretty clear that the red wire from his
PIR security light isn't connected to the lamps
in the same housing.

With the PIR sensor inactive, Les indicated that the
red wire measured 120 VAC WRT neutral, which is a somewhat
larger value than you would expect to see across the
filaments of two extinguished flood lights.

--Winston

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 28 Mar 2012 23:01:35 -0700, Winston <Winston@Bigbrother.net>
wrote:

P E Schoen wrote:

(...)

I'm just catching up on your post and it seems that there may be no good reason to use the sense lead at all, in which
case it may be deactivated. I think its only purpose is to require the motion detector AND the automation device to be
turned ON in order to light the lamps. In other words, a wired AND gate.

If you want to be able to turn on the lamps EITHER because motion is detected OR there is an alarm condition which
triggers the automation device, you want a wired OR gate. So you should be able to connect the switched output lead of
the automation device to the red lead of the motion detector which is also connected to the lamps. So the lights will
turn ON anytime motion is detected OR there is an alarm.

That seems almost too simple. Maybe I'm missing something?

I believe that is the case Paul, though I agree with your larger idea.

From the readings supplied by the OP Les, (ABLE1)
it is pretty clear that the red wire from his
PIR security light isn't connected to the lamps
in the same housing.

---
Not necessarily, since with the lamps in place, and off, the leakage
resistance of the switch would be connected to neutral through the low
off resistance of the lamp.

From Les's last post it appears that the leakage resistance of the
switch in the motion detector is about 130 - 140 kohms:



E2
/
E1 | <--O
\ | |
AC>-+-O |
| |
+-[R1]-+
|
[R2]
|
AC>--------+

With E1 being the mains voltage, R1 being the leakage resistance, and
R2 being the resistance of his test resistors, R1 will be:

R2 (E1-E2)
R1 = -----------
E2

which comes out to:

R2 R1
-----+------
20k 130k
10k 140k
5k 138k

Substituting two 100 watt lamps in parallel for R2, then, yields a
cold resistance of about 8 ohms and a voltage at E2 of about 7
millivolts.

However, with R2 open the voltage at E2 will measure close to 120V
because of the high impedance of the voltmeter.

So, because of Les's posts, I believe the red wire is connected to
lamp hot.

Easy enough to find out, just continuity test. With the mains
disconnected...
---

With the PIR sensor inactive, Les indicated that the
red wire measured 120 VAC WRT neutral, which is a somewhat
larger value than you would expect to see across the
filaments of two extinguished flood lights.

---
I think he posted - before his resistor tests - that he measured the
voltage on the red wire with the lamps disconnected.
---

--Winston

--
JF

 

[Winston]

John Fields wrote:

(...)

---
I think he posted - before his resistor tests - that he measured the
voltage on the red wire with the lamps disconnected.
---

Right you are, John.

I hadn't remembered that Les mentioned on March 17:
"When bulbs are installed and the unit is powered up the output to the
bulbs is at zero(0). If the bulbs are not connected or installed the
output is 120vac."

So, Les. What about John's idea? If the switching device in your
security system module is 'high side' as is he switching device
in your PIR floodlamp, what is stopping you from placing them in
parallel so that either or both can power the lights?

Would the security module be confused by having it's sense wire
connected to it's own output?

--Winston

 

[ABLE1]

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl204002end@news6.newsguy.com...

John Fields wrote:

(...)

---
I think he posted - before his resistor tests - that he measured
the
voltage on the red wire with the lamps disconnected.
---

Right you are, John.

I hadn't remembered that Les mentioned on March 17:
"When bulbs are installed and the unit is powered up the output to
the
bulbs is at zero(0). If the bulbs are not connected or installed
the
output is 120vac."

So, Les. What about John's idea? If the switching device in your
security system module is 'high side' as is he switching device
in your PIR floodlamp, what is stopping you from placing them in
parallel so that either or both can power the lights?

Would the security module be confused by having it's sense wire
connected to it's own output?

--Winston

All,

It would seem that I could not see the forest for the trees. I was
concentrating so hard on the way the mfg. was showing how to wire
this thing up and proceeded that way. When Paul posed his question
of why not just connect both outputs to the lamps I wanted to use a
hammer on my head. Then I stopped myself before doing some mass
destruction and thought that maybe the mfg. had a reason for not
describing this way to make the connections in that it may back-feed
the module and cause it to blow up or something. Just contacted
tech support and was told that it will NOT cause a problem in this
wiring plan. Just cap the yellow sense wire and go for it. My next
small concern would be that of back-feeding the motion output may
cause a similar issue, but I doubt it would.

So what this comes down to, is that for once I decided to RTFM and
to follow the instructions and should NOT have done so.

Thanks all for the help in this challenge. And a special thanks to
John for stepping back and turning on the light.

Regards,

Les

 

[John Fields]

On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 17:38:05 -0400, "ABLE1"
<royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl204002end@news6.newsguy.com...
John Fields wrote:

(...)

---
I think he posted - before his resistor tests - that he measured
the
voltage on the red wire with the lamps disconnected.
---

Right you are, John.

I hadn't remembered that Les mentioned on March 17:
"When bulbs are installed and the unit is powered up the output to
the
bulbs is at zero(0). If the bulbs are not connected or installed
the
output is 120vac."

So, Les. What about John's idea? If the switching device in your
security system module is 'high side' as is he switching device
in your PIR floodlamp, what is stopping you from placing them in
parallel so that either or both can power the lights?

Would the security module be confused by having it's sense wire
connected to it's own output?

--Winston


All,

It would seem that I could not see the forest for the trees. I was
concentrating so hard on the way the mfg. was showing how to wire
this thing up and proceeded that way. When Paul posed his question
of why not just connect both outputs to the lamps I wanted to use a
hammer on my head. Then I stopped myself before doing some mass
destruction and thought that maybe the mfg. had a reason for not
describing this way to make the connections in that it may back-feed
the module and cause it to blow up or something. Just contacted
tech support and was told that it will NOT cause a problem in this
wiring plan. Just cap the yellow sense wire and go for it. My next
small concern would be that of back-feeding the motion output may
cause a similar issue, but I doubt it would.

---
Be very careful here.

While the switch in the module may be able to hold off the 120V from
the motion detector, and vice versa, make sure that their outputs are
in phase or you'll be in for a nasty surprise if they're not and they
both go hot.
---

So what this comes down to, is that for once I decided to RTFM and
to follow the instructions and should NOT have done so.

Thanks all for the help in this challenge. And a special thanks to
John for stepping back and turning on the light.

---

---

Regards,

Les

--
JF