Electronic Challenge Help Requested

[Winston]

John Fields wrote:

(...)

Be very careful here.

While the switch in the module may be able to hold off the 120V from
the motion detector, and vice versa, make sure that their outputs are
in phase or you'll be in for a nasty surprise if they're not and they
both go hot.

Is this the 'high side' vs 'low side' switching quandary?

Line
------------o--------------.
| |
| .-.
\ o ( X )
\ '-'
\. | Security
o | Module
| Uh Oh! |
o----- -----o
PIR | |
Flood | \ o
.-. \
( X ) \.
'-' o
| |
| |
| |
Neutral | |
------------o--------------'


Line
------------o--------------.
| |
| |
\ o \ o
\ \
\. \. Security
o o Module
| OK! |
o--------------o
PIR | |
Flood | |
.-. .-.
( X ) ( X )
'-' '-'
| |
| |
| |
Neutral | |
------------o--------------'

(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


And my apology to Paul who mentioned the parallel connection
first, IIRC.

--Winston

 

[ABLE1]

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl2ple0303s@news6.newsguy.com...

John Fields wrote:

(...)

Be very careful here.

While the switch in the module may be able to hold off the 120V
from
the motion detector, and vice versa, make sure that their outputs
are
in phase or you'll be in for a nasty surprise if they're not and
they
both go hot.

Is this the 'high side' vs 'low side' switching quandary?

Line
------------o--------------.
| |
| .-.
\ o ( X )
\ '-'
\. | Security
o | Module
| Uh Oh! |
o----- -----o
PIR | |
Flood | \ o
.-. \
( X ) \.
'-' o
| |
| |
| |
Neutral | |
------------o--------------'


Line
------------o--------------.
| |
| |
\ o \ o
\ \
\. \. Security
o o Module
| OK! |
o--------------o
PIR | |
Flood | |
.-. .-.
( X ) ( X )
'-' '-'
| |
| |
| |
Neutral | |
------------o--------------'

(created by AACircuit v1.28.6 beta 04/19/05 www.tech-chat.de)


And my apology to Paul who mentioned the parallel connection
first, IIRC.

--Winston

Ok, what am I missing here. If the same source (120vac) is applied
to the both the module and a the motion then the outputs of those
devices (120vac) will be the same phase, not?? OR are you's just
trying to error on the side of caution??

Les

 

[P E Schoen]

"ABLE1" wrote in message
news:ne6dr.195014$2a.157938@en-nntp-14.dc1.easynews.com...

Ok, what am I missing here. If the same source (120vac) is
applied to the both the module and a the motion then the
outputs of those devices (120vac) will be the same phase,
not?? OR are you's just trying to error on the side of caution??

It appears that the automation module has an uncommitted contact and one
side (switch in) is shown externally connected to line. The motion detector
has a line connection and a neutral for power, and the triac is internally
connected between line and the output which is the red wire going to the
load (lamps). As long as the automation module is properly connected to line
and neutral, and the sense line is disconnected and deactivated, I see no
way to cause damage unless the other side of the switch (switch out) would
be connected to neutral. Then, of course, the switch would short out the
line when activated. There is only one phase to be concerned about.

If in doubt, use a small circuit breaker (1-2 amps) and 40-60 watt lamps in
place of the floodlights for testing.

Paul

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message news:jl2ple0303s@news6.newsguy.com...
John Fields wrote:

(...)

Be very careful here.

While the switch in the module may be able to hold off the 120V from
the motion detector, and vice versa, make sure that their outputs are
in phase or you'll be in for a nasty surprise if they're not and they
both go hot.

Is this the 'high side' vs 'low side' switching quandary?

(Courier Font Asciimatic showing a possible short circuit path.)

Ok, what am I missing here. If the same source (120vac) is applied to the both the module and a the motion then the
outputs of those devices (120vac) will be the same phase, not?? OR are you's just trying to error on the side of caution??

I thought I knew what John was getting at when he mentioned
a hazardous phase issue. This is all I could come up with:

We know that the PIR floodlight fixture uses a 'high side'
switch. That is, the lamps are connected to neutral on
one side and 120 VAC goes through the switch to turn the
lamps on. We don't know, however if the switch output
on the security module is 'high side' or 'low side'.

If it is 'high side', either the PIR floodlight electronics
or the security module electronics (or both) can power the
floodlights with impunity. If the switch in the security
module is 'low side' and both the PIR electronics and the
module electronics are turned on, both will see a dead short.

This would not be good.



--Winston

 

[Winston]

P E Schoen wrote:

"ABLE1" wrote in message news:ne6dr.195014$2a.157938@en-nntp-14.dc1.easynews.com...

Ok, what am I missing here. If the same source (120vac) is
applied to the both the module and a the motion then the
outputs of those devices (120vac) will be the same phase,
not?? OR are you's just trying to error on the side of caution??

It appears that the automation module has an uncommitted contact and one side (switch in) is shown externally connected
to line. The motion detector has a line connection and a neutral for power, and the triac is internally connected
between line and the output which is the red wire going to the load (lamps). As long as the automation module is
properly connected to line and neutral, and the sense line is disconnected and deactivated, I see no way to cause damage
unless the other side of the switch (switch out) would be connected to neutral. Then, of course, the switch would short
out the line when activated. There is only one phase to be concerned about.

If in doubt, use a small circuit breaker (1-2 amps) and 40-60 watt lamps in place of the floodlights for testing.

OK, then it looks like the PIR floodlight fixture and the
automation security module are both 'high side' switches
and they can power the same set of lights with no need to
worry about a short caused by a 'high side' - 'low side'
misunderstanding if they are connected hot to hot and
neutral to neutral.

Thanks for clearing that up, Paul.

--Winston

 

[ABLE1]

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl39a008p2@news6.newsguy.com...

P E Schoen wrote:
"ABLE1" wrote in message
news:ne6dr.195014$2a.157938@en-nntp-14.dc1.easynews.com...

Ok, what am I missing here. If the same source (120vac) is
applied to the both the module and a the motion then the
outputs of those devices (120vac) will be the same phase,
not?? OR are you's just trying to error on the side of caution??

It appears that the automation module has an uncommitted contact
and one side (switch in) is shown externally connected
to line. The motion detector has a line connection and a neutral
for power, and the triac is internally connected
between line and the output which is the red wire going to the
load (lamps). As long as the automation module is
properly connected to line and neutral, and the sense line is
disconnected and deactivated, I see no way to cause damage
unless the other side of the switch (switch out) would be
connected to neutral. Then, of course, the switch would short
out the line when activated. There is only one phase to be
concerned about.

If in doubt, use a small circuit breaker (1-2 amps) and 40-60
watt lamps in place of the floodlights for testing.

OK, then it looks like the PIR floodlight fixture and the
automation security module are both 'high side' switches
and they can power the same set of lights with no need to
worry about a short caused by a 'high side' - 'low side'
misunderstanding if they are connected hot to hot and
neutral to neutral.

Thanks for clearing that up, Paul.

--Winston

Yes!! If one side of the bulbs is connected always and forever to
the neutral then either Module or Motion will have to switch the Hot
(or High Side) to turn them ON. Therefore no conflict is possible.

Les

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:
(...)

Yes!! If one side of the bulbs is connected always and forever to the neutral then either Module or Motion will have to
switch the Hot (or High Side) to turn them ON. Therefore no conflict is possible.

Let us know how the test goes, y'hear, Les?



--Winston

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:18:42 -0400, "ABLE1"
<royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl39a008p2@news6.newsguy.com...
P E Schoen wrote:
"ABLE1" wrote in message
news:ne6dr.195014$2a.157938@en-nntp-14.dc1.easynews.com...

Ok, what am I missing here. If the same source (120vac) is
applied to the both the module and a the motion then the
outputs of those devices (120vac) will be the same phase,
not?? OR are you's just trying to error on the side of caution??

It appears that the automation module has an uncommitted contact
and one side (switch in) is shown externally connected
to line. The motion detector has a line connection and a neutral
for power, and the triac is internally connected
between line and the output which is the red wire going to the
load (lamps). As long as the automation module is
properly connected to line and neutral, and the sense line is
disconnected and deactivated, I see no way to cause damage
unless the other side of the switch (switch out) would be
connected to neutral. Then, of course, the switch would short
out the line when activated. There is only one phase to be
concerned about.

If in doubt, use a small circuit breaker (1-2 amps) and 40-60
watt lamps in place of the floodlights for testing.

OK, then it looks like the PIR floodlight fixture and the
automation security module are both 'high side' switches
and they can power the same set of lights with no need to
worry about a short caused by a 'high side' - 'low side'
misunderstanding if they are connected hot to hot and
neutral to neutral.

Thanks for clearing that up, Paul.

--Winston


Yes!! If one side of the bulbs is connected always and forever to
the neutral then either Module or Motion will have to switch the Hot
(or High Side) to turn them ON. Therefore no conflict is possible.

---
Since 120VAC is generally obtained between the center tap and one end
of a 240V transformer, what I was cautioning about was if the motion
detector was connected to one end of the transformer, the module to
the other, and the load high-side driven:


ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |
| | |
| | O
P||S |
R||E--[LAMP]--+
I||C |
| | O
| | |
ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |

--
JF

 

[Winston]

John Fields wrote:

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:18:42 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

(...)

Yes!! If one side of the bulbs is connected always and forever to
the neutral then either Module or Motion will have to switch the Hot
(or High Side) to turn them ON. Therefore no conflict is possible.

---
Since 120VAC is generally obtained between the center tap and one end
of a 240V transformer, what I was cautioning about was if the motion
detector was connected to one end of the transformer, the module to
the other, and the load high-side driven:


ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |
| | |
| | O
P||S |
R||E--[LAMP]--+
I||C |
| | O
| | |
ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |

OH! Yes. Quite. Thanks!

I got the idea that the automation module and
the PIR floodlight would live in the same electrical
box with only one hot available. Perhaps that is not
the case.

I also don't know if a carrier-current signal injected into
the 'L2' side will always be sensed on the 'L1' side or if
we will need a 'bridge' circuit in case the security light
and it's control are on opposite split phases:

http://www.smarthome.com/4815/Leviton-6299-X10-Signal-Bridge/p.aspx

Les, please confirm that the control and all security
lights are on the same split phase or that you have
a bridge installed?

--Winston

 

[ABLE1]

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl4dum0ol3@news1.newsguy.com...

John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:18:42 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

(...)

Yes!! If one side of the bulbs is connected always and forever
to
the neutral then either Module or Motion will have to switch the
Hot
(or High Side) to turn them ON. Therefore no conflict is
possible.

---
Since 120VAC is generally obtained between the center tap and one
end
of a 240V transformer, what I was cautioning about was if the
motion
detector was connected to one end of the transformer, the module
to
the other, and the load high-side driven:


ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |
| | |
| | O
P||S |
R||E--[LAMP]--+
I||C |
| | O
| | |
ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |


OH! Yes. Quite. Thanks!

I got the idea that the automation module and
the PIR floodlight would live in the same electrical
box with only one hot available. Perhaps that is not
the case.

I also don't know if a carrier-current signal injected into
the 'L2' side will always be sensed on the 'L1' side or if
we will need a 'bridge' circuit in case the security light
and it's control are on opposite split phases:

http://www.smarthome.com/4815/Leviton-6299-X10-Signal-Bridge/p.aspx

Les, please confirm that the control and all security
lights are on the same split phase or that you have
a bridge installed?

--Winston

Confirmed!! All individual motions and modules with lamps are in the
same box. All units are fed from the same switch and the same
breaker which places them on the same phase. All that being said
conflicts ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. Unless the Sun Spots
and Sun Tornados adversely effect the magnetic poles.

Les

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:

(...)

Confirmed!! All individual motions and modules with lamps are in the same box. All units are fed from the same switch
and the same breaker which places them on the same phase. All that being said conflicts ain't gonna happen in my
lifetime. Unless the Sun Spots and Sun Tornados adversely effect the magnetic poles.

Cool!

--Winston

 

[John Fields]

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 17:39:20 -0400, "ABLE1"
<royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl4dum0ol3@news1.newsguy.com...
John Fields wrote:
On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:18:42 -0400, "ABLE1"
royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote:

(...)

Yes!! If one side of the bulbs is connected always and forever
to
the neutral then either Module or Motion will have to switch the
Hot
(or High Side) to turn them ON. Therefore no conflict is
possible.

---
Since 120VAC is generally obtained between the center tap and one
end
of a 240V transformer, what I was cautioning about was if the
motion
detector was connected to one end of the transformer, the module
to
the other, and the load high-side driven:


ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |
| | |
| | O
P||S |
R||E--[LAMP]--+
I||C |
| | O
| | |
ACHV>---+ +-----O--> |


OH! Yes. Quite. Thanks!

I got the idea that the automation module and
the PIR floodlight would live in the same electrical
box with only one hot available. Perhaps that is not
the case.

I also don't know if a carrier-current signal injected into
the 'L2' side will always be sensed on the 'L1' side or if
we will need a 'bridge' circuit in case the security light
and it's control are on opposite split phases:

http://www.smarthome.com/4815/Leviton-6299-X10-Signal-Bridge/p.aspx

Les, please confirm that the control and all security
lights are on the same split phase or that you have
a bridge installed?

--Winston


Confirmed!! All individual motions and modules with lamps are in the
same box. All units are fed from the same switch and the same
breaker which places them on the same phase. All that being said
conflicts ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. Unless the Sun Spots
and Sun Tornados adversely effect the magnetic poles.

Les

---
Another satisfied customer...

What could be better?

--
JF

 

[Winston]

John Fields wrote:

Another satisfied customer...

What could be better?

Our work is done here, then.

Once again we have used our super-powers for Good.

To the Fieldmobile, John?

--Winston

 

[ABLE1]

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl5f9c01dud@news1.newsguy.com...

John Fields wrote:

Another satisfied customer...

What could be better?

Our work is done here, then.

Once again we have used our super-powers for Good.

To the Fieldmobile, John?

--Winston

Thanks to 'Ye All' for the brainstorming session. It was good for
me. Hope it was good for ya'll. Once in a while a plan does come
together but the course may not be a straight line. May each that
participated have blue skies and happy electrons. I shall now go
back under my lurking rock...........................

Les

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:

(...)

Thanks to 'Ye All' for the brainstorming session. It was good for me. Hope it was good for ya'll. Once in a while a plan
does come together but the course may not be a straight line. May each that participated have blue skies and happy
electrons. I shall now go back under my lurking rock...........................

Les

--Winston

 

[ABLE1]

"ABLE1" <royboynospam@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:YQtdr.231659$oV1.45078@en-nntp-16.dc1.easynews.com...

"Winston" <Winston@Bigbrother.net> wrote in message
news:jl5f9c01dud@news1.newsguy.com...
John Fields wrote:

Another satisfied customer...

What could be better?

Our work is done here, then.

Once again we have used our super-powers for Good.

To the Fieldmobile, John?

--Winston

Thanks to 'Ye All' for the brainstorming session. It was good for
me. Hope it was good for ya'll. Once in a while a plan does come
together but the course may not be a straight line. May each that
participated have blue skies and happy electrons. I shall now go
back under my lurking rock...........................

Les

Hello all again,

I am back with a little follow up on current status. Yesterday I
installed all the modules (6 ea) in the box at each motion head and
flood lights. Wired as I should have in the first place by
connecting the output of the motion head with the output of the
module to the hot side of the bulbs. Capped the module sense
wire(not used) Power up and all worked as desired and most
important NO SMOKE.

Again thanks for all the extra brain juices that were thrown my way.
Very helpful and it was a pleasure conversing with all.

Have a good Easter weekend where ever you may be. Give yourselves a
"ATTABOY" badge.

Thanks,

Les

 

[Winston]

ABLE1 wrote:

Hello all again,

I am back with a little follow up on current status. Yesterday I installed all the modules (6 ea) in the box at each
motion head and flood lights. Wired as I should have in the first place by connecting the output of the motion head with
the output of the module to the hot side of the bulbs. Capped the module sense wire(not used) Power up and all worked as
desired and most important NO SMOKE.

Again thanks for all the extra brain juices that were thrown my way. Very helpful and it was a pleasure conversing with
all.

Have a good Easter weekend where ever you may be. Give yourselves a "ATTABOY" badge.

Paul and John, one USENET Attaboy each.

I shall covet mine until it is time to cash it in.
(Figure Wednesday around 2:30 PM.)

Good going, Les!

--Winston<-- First time I wished my name was Ringo or George, even.

 

[P E Schoen]

"Winston" wrote in message news:jlq40d01tru@news1.newsguy.com...

ABLE1 wrote:

Have a good Easter weekend where ever you may be. Give yourselves a
"ATTABOY" badge.

Paul and John, one USENET Attaboy each.

I shall place my Attaboy next to my collection of Round Tuits.
If one should collect 1000 Attaboys, would that be a Femtaboy?

I shall covet mine until it is time to cash it in.
(Figure Wednesday around 2:30 PM.)

Good going, Les!

Yes, it was good to have been able to find a working solution and receive
good feedback from the OP and all who helped. Hopefully this good deed will
escape the wrath of Murphy's laws and remain unpunished!

Paul

 

[Winston]

P E Schoen wrote:

"Winston" wrote in message news:jlq40d01tru@news1.newsguy.com...

ABLE1 wrote:

Have a good Easter weekend where ever you may be. Give yourselves a "ATTABOY" badge.

Paul and John, one USENET Attaboy each.

I shall place my Attaboy next to my collection of Round Tuits.
If one should collect 1000 Attaboys, would that be a Femtaboy?

Well, yes.

Luckily you can wait a year and let inflation
do that without any further effort on your part.

I shall covet mine until it is time to cash it in.
(Figure Wednesday around 2:30 PM.)

Good going, Les!

Yes, it was good to have been able to find a working solution and receive good feedback from the OP and all who helped.
Hopefully this good deed will escape the wrath of Murphy's laws and remain unpunished!

Hear hear!

--Winston