Electrical certification for imported goods

[Mainlander]

In article <pan.2004.01.19.01.52.59.288939@TRACKER>,
notanyspam@nospam.invalid says...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:57:57 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

I'm arguing against his assertion that he owns the
copyright on the scanned image of his certificate.

You are attempting that NOW, after you nose was
rubbed in your complete pig ignorance of copyright law.

I *DO* own the right to copy my certificate. I do own the copyright over
my certificate. *I* own the original of that certificate - it is mine to
do what I like with it.

You own a copy of a certificate. You do not own the design of the
original blank certificate as it was before your name was imprinted on
it. Copyright of the design is owned by the polytech, as are some of the
parts (logo etc)

--
Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
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[Mainlander]

In article <pan.2004.01.19.03.53.01.444406@TRACKER>,
notanyspam@nospam.invalid says...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 13:57:24 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

Showing that silly scrap of paper around in Australia would only
provoke fits of laughter.

Most likely because Australians are dumber even than Americans!

plonk!

No, in your ignorance, it would be because such a certificate has no
standing in Australia

--
Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/

 

[Phil Allison]

"Lennier" <notanyspam@nospam.invalid

"Silence means Consent" is a legal principle.

** Only in cases where the party consenting has knowledge of what is to be
or is being done.

The fact that the Polytechnic has not specifically refused me the
permission to duplicate
the certificate means that, as possessor of the original said certificate
and of all rights to the use of the said certificate, I and none other
have the copyright over it.

** Bullshit.

Copyright lies with the originator.

It can only be lost by written contract of sale or transfer of that
copyright.

What you have as the possessor is called a copyright license - a limited
license to make copies for a limited range of purposes.






......... Phil

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:26:56 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

What you have as the possessor is called a copyright license - a limited
license to make copies for a limited range of purposes.

I think you'll find that I have consistently stated "for the purpose for
which the certificate was intended" - namely to prove knowledge and skills
learned.

I possess the original of that certificate - only I can and have the right
to make copies of my certificate - none other can produce direct copies of
my certificate. None other has the right - to make copies of my
certificate.

Not even the Polytechnic has the right to duplicate my certificate. The
polytechnic can issue a replacement certificate if I request one. But that
is not the same as making a copy of the certificate that only I possess -
it would be producing another original and giving that original to me.

Of course I do not own the copyright over the various designs/logos/etc
that are used to make the certificate - I own the copyright to the
certificate as a complete document.

If I did not own the copyright, then how could I possible grant to an
employer the right to photocopy the certificate if I'd shown him/her the
original?


Lennier

--
Brian Valentine - Microsoft's SVP for Windows development: "We
really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our
products just aren't engineered for security."

 

[Phil Allison]

"Lennier" <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.08.01.20.675738@TRACKER...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:26:56 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

What you have as the possessor is called a copyright license - a
limited
license to make copies for a limited range of purposes.


I possess the original of that certificate - only I can and have the right
to make copies of my certificate - none other can produce direct copies of
my certificate. None other has the right - to make copies of my
certificate.

** Bullshit. You are a ranting fuckwit.

Not even the Polytechnic has the right to duplicate my certificate.

** They do and they can.

Of course I do not own the copyright over the various designs/logos/etc
that are used to make the certificate - I own the copyright to the
certificate as a complete document.

** You are a ranting fuckwit.

If I did not own the copyright, then how could I possible grant to an
employer the right to photocopy the certificate if I'd shown him/her the
original?

** A copyright license give you that right - such a license is
automatically granted with the supply of the certificate.

Go look up "Copyright Law" on the web before you make an even bigger ass
of yourself.




........... Phil

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.07.08.43.959753@TRACKER...

Rod Speed wrote

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote

I do own the copyright over my certificate.

Nope, you aint the author or creator of it.

I have the right to make as many copies of my certificate as I please.

Yes, but that does NOT mean that you own the copyright over it.

The author/creator of the certificate does.

I have the COPY-RIGHT - the RIGHT to COPY my certificate.

Mindlessly superficial legally.

There are plenty of things you have the right to
copy that you do not legally own the copyright to.

I possess the rights to copy that certificate any way I please.

Separate issue entirely to who owns the copyright. You dont.

The author/creator of the certificate does.

They have implicitly authorised you to copy
the particular certificate with your name on it.

Similarly I retain copyright over what I write here, and
I implicitly authorise quoting of what I write \here just
by posting my posts in a public forum, so you copying
what I wrote in the quoting does not constitute a
copyright infringement of my copyright to the bits I wrote.

In fact nobody else can copy that certificate.

Thats just plain wrong too. An employer is for
example welcome to copy your certificate and
include it in your employment records if they want to.

The fact that I am not the author of the certificate is immaterial

Wrong. Copyright is a right that resides in the author or creator.

It does NOT reside with the owner of a PARTICULAR copy,
as my example with the rights you have with a particularly
paperback or CD you have purchased proves.

You certainly own the particular copy you purchased,
but you do NOT have any COPYRIGHT at all just
because you own a particular copy.

- the ownership of the copyright to that
particular certificate has been granted to me,

Wrong. The only thing you own is the particular certificate.

You have no copyright at all. None, zero, nada, ziltch.

along with ownership of the certificate itself.

Thats ALL you have, just like with a paperback you purchase.

If this were not so then I would not legally be able to duplicate it.

Crap. There is an implied permission to copy the certificate,
just like you have an implied right to quote/copy my original
work in this post just because I posted it in a public forum.

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.08.01.20.675738@TRACKER...

Phil Allison wrote

What you have as the possessor is called a copyright license
- a limited license to make copies for a limited range of purposes.

I think you'll find that I have consistently stated
"for the purpose for which the certificate was intended"
- namely to prove knowledge and skills learned.

Which is what he said in different words.

Tho its not as limited a license as that. You're welcome
to for example make lots of copys and paper your walls
with those copys to posture in front of visitors if you want.

Or have a huge billboard blowup of it outside your house too.

I possess the original of that certificate

Correct.

- only I can and have the right to make copies of my certificate
- none other can produce direct copies of my certificate.

Wrong.

None other has the right - to make copies of my certificate.

Wrong.

Not even the Polytechnic has the right to duplicate my certificate.

Wrong.

The polytechnic can issue a replacement certificate if I request one.

They dont have to have your request.

But that is not the same as making a copy of the
certificate that only I possess - it would be producing
another original and giving that original to me.

They're welcome to make one original and
only ever give you copys of it if they want.

Of course I do not own the copyright over the various
designs/logos/etc that are used to make the certificate

Correct.

- I own the copyright to the certificate as a complete document.

Like hell you do. You aint the author or creator of it.

THAT is an absolutely crucial aspect of copyright.

If I did not own the copyright, then how could I
possible grant to an employer the right to photocopy
the certificate if I'd shown him/her the original?

You never do. That right to copy is implied when the
certificate is issued by the copyright holder, the polytech.

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:35:48 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

Not even the Polytechnic has the right to duplicate my certificate.


** They do and they can.

Not unless it steals it from my home!


Lennier

--
Newsman - on CD piracy: "Entertainment meets Geekery meets Vengeance. It's
unstoppable. A match made in Heaven."

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:47:12 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

- I own the copyright to the certificate as a complete document.

You aint the author or creator of it.

Didn't say I was!

Didn't say I owned any of the LOGOs or DESIGNs that were used to make the
certificate.

DID say I OWN the certificate. I own the right to copy it however I choose.

That right is MINE!

I own the copyright to my certificate.

*I* can assign that right to whomsoever I choose.


Lennier

--
Brian Valentine - Microsoft's SVP for Windows development: "We
really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our
products just aren't engineered for security."

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:39:26 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

I have the COPY-RIGHT - the RIGHT to COPY my certificate.

Mindlessly superficial legally.

It is the REALITY!


Lennier

--
Brian Valentine - Microsoft's SVP for Windows development: "We
really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our
products just aren't engineered for security."

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:39:26 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

In fact nobody else can copy that certificate.

Thats just plain wrong too. An employer is for
example welcome to copy your certificate and
include it in your employment records if they want to.

Only if *I* give permission for them to do so.

They ASK first.


Lennier

--
Newsman - on CD piracy: "Entertainment meets Geekery meets Vengeance. It's
unstoppable. A match made in Heaven."

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:39:26 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

The fact that I am not the author of the certificate is immaterial

Wrong. Copyright is a right that resides in the author or creator.

It does NOT reside with the owner of a PARTICULAR copy,

It is not a copy it is the original!

The fact that many certificates are issued using the same template does
not alter the fact that I possess an original certificate - it is not a
duplicate. I own the only one of those certificates with my name on it.


Lennier

--
Brian Valentine - Microsoft's SVP for Windows development: "We
really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our
products just aren't engineered for security."

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:39:26 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

- the ownership of the copyright to that
particular certificate has been granted to me,

Wrong. The only thing you own is the particular certificate.

You have no copyright at all. None, zero, nada, ziltch.

Then why can I legally COPY it? I own the RIGHT to COPY it - AKA the
copyright.

Surely don't you have even half a clue?


Lennier

--
"When dealing with the Religious Right one should remember that 'truth'
is not a part of the rules of their game."

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.09.15.39.320966@TRACKER...

Phil Allison wrote

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote

Not even the Polytechnic has the right to duplicate my certificate.

They do and they can.

Not unless it steals it from my home!

Wrong again. They're legally welcome to produce
the duplicate the same way they made the original.

 

[Lennier]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:39:26 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:

If this were not so then I would not legally be able to duplicate it.

Crap. There is an implied permission to copy the certificate,

If that is not a copyright then what is?


Lennier

--
Newsman - on CD piracy: "Entertainment meets Geekery meets Vengeance. It's
unstoppable. A match made in Heaven."

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.09.21.40.331117@TRACKER...

Rod Speed wrote

I have the COPY-RIGHT - the RIGHT to COPY my certificate.

Mindlessly superficial legally.

It is the REALITY!

Nope, read the copyright act.

THATS what spell out who the copyright owner is and what
constitutes an infringement of their copyright and what doesnt.

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.09.22.51.568380@TRACKER...

Rod Speed wrote

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote

In fact nobody else can copy that certificate.

Thats just plain wrong too. An employer is for
example welcome to copy your certificate and
include it in your employment records if they want to.

Only if *I* give permission for them to do so.

Wrong. You dont own the copyright, you aint the author or designer.

They ASK first.

They can if they want. They arent legally obliged to do that.

And you cant touch them legally if they copy it without asking first.

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.09.25.00.978699@TRACKER...

Rod Speed wrote

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote

The fact that I am not the author of the certificate is immaterial

Wrong. Copyright is a right that resides with the author or creator.

It does NOT reside with the owner of a PARTICULAR copy,

It is not a copy it is the original!

Nope, its one copy of countless issued to every
student which just happens to have your name on it.

The fact that many certificates are issued using the same template
does not alter the fact that I possess an original certificate

Correct. But that does NOT mean that you are the copyright
holder, because you arent the author or the designer.

You're just the individual whose name is on that particular copy.

- it is not a duplicate.

Doesnt need to be to be one of countless
copys that particular polytech churns out.

I own the only one of those certificates with my name on it.

Yes but you do not own the copyright, because you arent the author or the designer.

Read the legislation.

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.09.28.37.829894@TRACKER...

Rod Speed wrote
Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote

- the ownership of the copyright to that
particular certificate has been granted to me,

Wrong. The only thing you own is the particular certificate.

You have no copyright at all. None, zero, nada, ziltch.

Then why can I legally COPY it?

Because you have an implied license
from the actual copyright owner to do that.

Just like you have implied permission me to quote what I post
in a newsgroup post, because I choose to post it in a public forum.

I own the RIGHT to COPY it - AKA the copyright.

Mindlessly superifical legally.

Surely don't you have even half a clue?

Fraid I do. Read the legislation. And weep.

 

[Rod Speed]

Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
newsan.2004.01.19.09.29.22.347129@TRACKER...

Rod Speed wrote
Lennier <notanyspam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

If this were not so then I would not legally be able to duplicate it.

Crap. There is an implied permission to copy the certificate,

If that is not a copyright then what is?

Its actually an implied license/permission from the actual copyright owner,
just like you have when quoting material from my posts in your replys.