EAGLE Netlist conversion

Jeff Thompson · Dec 8, 2004

Dr.No wrote:

You stupid and ignorant American idiot !!!

Most of the things you eat and drink, came from Europe!!!

You would not have a single grapevine if it they were not brought by honest
people from all over Europe who believed that they are going to the better
world, but they ended in worse police regime ever.....

Are you referring to those Europeans whose first order of business
was to begin killing the people who were already living here?
I'm sure there were many "Americans" who would have been much happier
if all of those Europeans had stayed at home. And "worse police regime
ever"? Are you talking about Stalin? or that German guy? or maybe Mao, or...

Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su · Dec 8, 2004

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
message news:ll5cr0piv280apm86lh2qr044ivcujrttc@4ax.com...

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:08:40 +0100, "Dr.No" <Dr.No@007.com> wrote:

You stupid and ignorant American idiot !!!

Most of the things you eat and drink, came from Europe!!!

Corn, potatoes, chocolate, coffee, rice, noodles, ... classic European
inventions? OK, you get credit for white bread and horsemeat.

Potatoes came from South America. Chocolate came from Africa, IIRC.
Coffee came from South America. Noodles or pasta came from China,
brought back to Europe by Marco Polo. Corn, I forget, might be from
Central America.

[snip]

> John

Ban · Dec 8, 2004

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
message news:ll5cr0piv280apm86lh2qr044ivcujrttc@4ax.com...
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:08:40 +0100, "Dr.No" <Dr.No@007.com> wrote:

You stupid and ignorant American idiot !!!

Most of the things you eat and drink, came from Europe!!!

Corn, potatoes, chocolate, coffee, rice, noodles, ... classic
European inventions? OK, you get credit for white bread and
horsemeat.

Potatoes came from South America. Chocolate came from Africa, IIRC.
Coffee came from South America. Noodles or pasta came from China,
brought back to Europe by Marco Polo. Corn, I forget, might be from
Central America.

[snip]

John

But Hamburgers, CocaCola, potato chips, TV and Democrazy have conquered
almost the whole world. Must be superiour. We now finish our prayers with
"God bless America" and not "Vive la France". In fact the last time I said
this the flics became really mad at me.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

John Larkin · Dec 8, 2004

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 02:32:29 -0800, "Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover\"" <NOSPAM@dslextreme.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote in
message news:ll5cr0piv280apm86lh2qr044ivcujrttc@4ax.com...
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 20:08:40 +0100, "Dr.No" <Dr.No@007.com> wrote:

You stupid and ignorant American idiot !!!

Most of the things you eat and drink, came from Europe!!!

Corn, potatoes, chocolate, coffee, rice, noodles, ... classic European
inventions? OK, you get credit for white bread and horsemeat.

Potatoes came from South America. Chocolate came from Africa,

Chocolate from Central America, stolen from the Aztecs by the Spanish
just before they destroyed the civilization that was much in advance
of their own in many ways. But the Aztecs stole it from the Putun, so
I guess it was OK.

The Spanish promptly became chocoholics. There was a huge debate over
whether chocolate was a drink or a food; if a food, it was forbidden
in the fasting hours between midnight and Holy Communion. The popes,
fond of chocolate and late hours, generally sided with "drink." The
fast was eventually reduced to one hour, so the issue became mostly
moot.

I wonder why all the best chocolate bars come from Switzerland and the
Netherlands, and none from Central America?

John

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 8, 2004

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 08:40:03 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

I wonder why all the best chocolate bars come from Switzerland and the
Netherlands, and none from Central America?

John

Why do the best TV sets come from Japan?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Jim Thompson · Dec 8, 2004

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 13:15:31 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:41:55 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:20:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 08:40:03 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

I wonder why all the best chocolate bars come from Switzerland and the
Netherlands, and none from Central America?

John

Why do the best TV sets come from Japan?

Did you ever *watch* Japanese television? I wonder why they bother.

John

Iron Chef is great!

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Larkin · Dec 8, 2004

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 13:15:31 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:41:55 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:20:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 08:40:03 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

I wonder why all the best chocolate bars come from Switzerland and the
Netherlands, and none from Central America?

John

Why do the best TV sets come from Japan?

Did you ever *watch* Japanese television? I wonder why they bother.

John

Iron Chef is great!

Missed that. All I could find was insane game shows and Samurai epics
with lots of chunky guys squatting in circles and grunting. Nice
hairdos, though.

But to be honest, American TV is worse.

John

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 8, 2004

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:41:55 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:20:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 08:40:03 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

I wonder why all the best chocolate bars come from Switzerland and the
Netherlands, and none from Central America?

John

Why do the best TV sets come from Japan?

Did you ever *watch* Japanese television? I wonder why they bother.

John

Iron Chef is great!

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 8, 2004

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:05:35 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 13:15:31 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 09:41:55 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 12:20:30 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 08:40:03 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

I wonder why all the best chocolate bars come from Switzerland and the
Netherlands, and none from Central America?

John

Why do the best TV sets come from Japan?

Did you ever *watch* Japanese television? I wonder why they bother.

John

Iron Chef is great!

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

The most hilarious thing I've ever seen was "Bonanza" dubbed into
Japanese ;-)

...Jim Thompson

_Bewitched_ (as 'Wife is Witch', IIRC) was popular too- the Japanese
voice of Darrin was at least an octave lower than either of the
original actors (Dicks, both of them).

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 8, 2004

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 10:09:34 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

Missed that. All I could find was insane game shows and Samurai epics
with lots of chunky guys squatting in circles and grunting. Nice
hairdos, though.

No fat dudes in diapers facing off?

Iron Chef is on the Food Network, dubbed into English.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/show_ic

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Andrew Holme · Dec 8, 2004

Terry Pinnell wrote:

I've been grappling with this in vain for a day or so, but I'm
floundering and would appreciate some help please.

Hopefully this consolidated illustration will be largely
self-explantory:
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/4020+4060+CM.pdf

Am I right to conclude that I *cannot* build a generalised 4060
'macro' model using a 4020 in this way? Or is there some clever trick
I've not seen allowing me to connect pins 9 and 10, which have no 4020
equivalent, using extra gates etc?

If the approach *is* doomed, presumably the only other options are
these?

1) Build a 4060 model from scratch from the data sheet, using F/Fs and
elementary gates. Has anyone already got one, for CM or *any* Spice
program please?

2) For any *specific* 4060 circuit I want to simulate, build it from
first principles, with a 4020 and (if the internal oscillator is
employed), with an external R/C/inverter section bolted on
appropriately.

I think you could make a macro using a 4020, a nand gate and a handful of
inverters. Just make sure you get the total number if inversions right. It
doesn't matter if the clock gets nand'ed with /reset twice.

Tim Stinchcombe · Dec 9, 2004

Hi Terry,

Am I right to conclude that I *cannot* build a generalised 4060
'macro' model using a 4020 in this way? Or is there some clever trick
I've not seen allowing me to connect pins 9 and 10, which have no 4020
equivalent, using extra gates etc?

As the previous poster says, a 4020 plus a few external gates should do it.
I reckon what you need is basically as the bottom diagram of your pdf. Add
the nand and the first 5 inverters: output of the third inverter after the
nand is the clock input of the 4020, so with the nand you have an even no.
of inversions, and hence the same clocking sense for your '4060' and the
4020; output of the second inverter in the reset chain is the reset input of
the 4020 (and again an even no. of inversions, so the same sense). Pins 9,
10, 11 (of the 4060) are then as the bottom diagram, and other relabelling
of the output pins as necessary.

SIMetrix does have a model of the 4060, and surprisingly it is written using
toggle flip-flops, rather than their proprietary 'arbitrary logic block':
however this seems to be using the XSpice primitives, so how useful it would
be I couldn't say...

Tim
--
__________________________________________________________
Tim Stinchcombe

Cheltenham, Glos, UK

Rich Grise · Dec 9, 2004

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 22:34:27 +0000, Andrew Holme wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:
I've been grappling with this in vain for a day or so, but I'm
floundering and would appreciate some help please.

Hopefully this consolidated illustration will be largely
self-explantory:
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/4020+4060+CM.pdf

Am I right to conclude that I *cannot* build a generalised 4060
'macro' model using a 4020 in this way? Or is there some clever trick
I've not seen allowing me to connect pins 9 and 10, which have no 4020
equivalent, using extra gates etc?

If the approach *is* doomed, presumably the only other options are
these?

1) Build a 4060 model from scratch from the data sheet, using F/Fs and
elementary gates. Has anyone already got one, for CM or *any* Spice
program please?

2) For any *specific* 4060 circuit I want to simulate, build it from
first principles, with a 4020 and (if the internal oscillator is
employed), with an external R/C/inverter section bolted on
appropriately.

I think you could make a macro using a 4020, a nand gate and a handful of
inverters. Just make sure you get the total number if inversions right. It
doesn't matter if the clock gets nand'ed with /reset twice.

I don't know how this "modeling" operates, but from what I've gleaned so
far, you can't model a 4060 by embedding a 4020, because of those pesky
pins 9 and 10. You'd have to modify the 4020 model to bring out those Q's,
and from there, if you can modify the model, just add the oscillator.

Please apply all appropriate disclaimers here. ;-)

Good Luck!
Rich

Blair P. Houghton · Dec 9, 2004

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 04:35:24 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:01:28 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:45:52 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

Governments do go bankrupt.

But they can print all the money they need.

John

And this is what the result looks like:

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0&v=dmax

Gets worse:

http://www.joelscoins.com/exhibger2.htm

"Samsonite is gonna make a mint."

Why is it that some people take such joy in the hope of misery?

Why is it that some people take misery as being joy?

--Blair
"Oh yeah. They're lying."

John Larkin · Dec 9, 2004

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 00:56:49 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 04:35:24 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 11:01:28 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 05:45:52 GMT, Blair P. Houghton <b@p.h> wrote:

Governments do go bankrupt.

But they can print all the money they need.

John

And this is what the result looks like:

http://quotes.ino.com/chart/?s=NYBOT_DXY0&v=dmax

Gets worse:

http://www.joelscoins.com/exhibger2.htm

"Samsonite is gonna make a mint."

Why is it that some people take such joy in the hope of misery?

Why is it that some people take misery as being joy?

--Blair
"Oh yeah. They're lying."

Actually, a sizable fraction of the population is incapable of joy.
Apparently it's some genetic thing.

Gosh, maybe I'm actually not having fun. Maybe I'm miserable and just
don't appreciate it.

John

Spehro Pefhany · Dec 9, 2004

On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:51:53 GMT, the renowned Pig Bladder
<pig_bladder@anyspammer.org> wrote:

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 20:08:40 +0100, Dr.No wrote:

You stupid and ignorant American idiot !!!

It is impossible to be "stupid" and "ignorant" simultaneously.

Take your pick!

Nonsense. They are orthogonal. All four combinations are possible.

11 smart + knowledgable
01 stupid + knowledgable
10 smart + ignorant
00 stupid + ignorant

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Terry Pinnell · Dec 9, 2004

"Tim Stinchcombe" <timng1@tstinchcombe.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Terry,

Am I right to conclude that I *cannot* build a generalised 4060
'macro' model using a 4020 in this way? Or is there some clever trick
I've not seen allowing me to connect pins 9 and 10, which have no 4020
equivalent, using extra gates etc?

As the previous poster says, a 4020 plus a few external gates should do it.
I reckon what you need is basically as the bottom diagram of your pdf. Add
the nand and the first 5 inverters: output of the third inverter after the
nand is the clock input of the 4020, so with the nand you have an even no.
of inversions, and hence the same clocking sense for your '4060' and the
4020; output of the second inverter in the reset chain is the reset input of
the 4020 (and again an even no. of inversions, so the same sense). Pins 9,
10, 11 (of the 4060) are then as the bottom diagram, and other relabelling
of the output pins as necessary.

SIMetrix does have a model of the 4060, and surprisingly it is written using
toggle flip-flops, rather than their proprietary 'arbitrary logic block':
however this seems to be using the XSpice primitives, so how useful it would
be I couldn't say...

Tim

Thanks both. Guess I'll have another crack at it then, as you're both
confident it can be done. But the penny has not yet dropped here!
Surely, if I add external NAND and a number of inverters, won't that
screw up the existing 4020 circuitry?

Tim: CircuitMaker 2000 uses Berkeley Spice3f5/XSpice, so maybe that
SIMetrix model could be useful. I have SIMetrix 3.0, but used it only
superficially in 1999. With a 4060 placed in a new schematic, what
steps do I take to see its model please?

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

Tim Stinchcombe · Dec 9, 2004

Terry,

Thanks both. Guess I'll have another crack at it then, as you're both
confident it can be done. But the penny has not yet dropped here!
Surely, if I add external NAND and a number of inverters, won't that
screw up the existing 4020 circuitry?

Ah ha, I see you want it as its own symbol (or 'macro' as you say). This
should be do-able: you'll probably need the new 'device' to be a 'subckt',
which contains the new gates plus the 'call' to the 4020 model. Then you'll
need to work out how in CircuitMaker you create a new symbol for your 4060,
which will then need associating with the subckt (which is just a
self-contained netlist), along with the pin allocations. I'm making lots of
assumptions here about CircuitMaker: If I were you I'd make and test the
4060 circuit as normal, using the extra gates and the 4020, then look at the
netlist to see what it has done (no idea how easy or otherwise this will
be - it's a piece of cake in SIMetrix, but a nightmare in Multisim!!!) -
this then forms the basis of your model. Then you are left with finding out
how to make a new 'library item' from a new symbol and netlist....possibly
too much work and not worth it, to relatively easy, depending on your state
of mind and how easy CircuitMaker is to use!

Tim: CircuitMaker 2000 uses Berkeley Spice3f5/XSpice, so maybe that
SIMetrix model could be useful. I have SIMetrix 3.0, but used it only
superficially in 1999. With a 4060 placed in a new schematic, what
steps do I take to see its model please?

I don't think there is a quick way to the model from the schematic - I
always go directly to the appropriate model file. This is displayed at the
bottom of the 'Place, From Model Library...' pop-up, and will be something
like "c:\program files\SIMetrix??\models\digital\msi.lb". It's just a text
file with the Spice subckt/model netlists for the components. (And bear in
mind that SIMetrix is not _strictly_ XSpice: it has been extended and
chopped about.)

Tim
--
__________________________________________________________
Tim Stinchcombe

Cheltenham, Glos, UK

Dec 9, 2004

Paul Burke wrote:

Sotris wrote:
The prices for a single 2 layers 1dm2 full prototype is only 20Euro
without VAT for foreign countries? What is the VAT if it will apply
(ie. with invoice inside EU)?
thanks

The service looks OK at first glance, though the design limitations
are
rather coarse (15 thou track/ space, 0.5mm holes). I'd be happier to
have a physical address of this Greek concern.

If you have a VAT number, send him that, and he won't charge you VAT
assuming he's VAT registered in Greece. You have to declare it and
pay
VAT in your own country, but you can claim it back. Otherwise he
charges
you VAT at Greek rates. It's bizzarre, but that's the rules.

Paul Burke

Dec 9, 2004

Hi.
Well, VAT at Greece is 18% but for all orders outside Greece with
Invoice and Valid VAT number, no VAT applies from our side. Minimum
hole is 0.5mm and the minimum required pad for this is 0.9mm. Minimum
space/distance required from track to track is 0.3mm. Also the minimum
tracks width is 0.3mm. Our offices address is Alexandroupoleos 49 str,
Athens 11527, GREECE. Our fabrication facilities are at northern Greece
(Xanthi city).
Regards Danai

EAGLE Netlist conversion

Jeff Thompson

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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su

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Ban

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John Larkin

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Spehro Pefhany

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Jim Thompson

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John Larkin

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Spehro Pefhany

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Spehro Pefhany

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Spehro Pefhany

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Andrew Holme

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Tim Stinchcombe

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Rich Grise

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