EAGLE Netlist conversion

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:15:24 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

As you are probably about the furthest away from being a "serious
electronic designer" in these NGs, what springs to your mind on this
matter is about as valid as John Travolter's on the correctness of
Scientology.

John who?
If you're going to resort to flaming, Kev, at least get the spelling
right.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Chris Carlen]

John Larkin wrote:

Hey, Here's my latest gadget:

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html

Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.

John

I like that more than the air freshener, I'm afraid.



--
_____________________
Christopher R. Carlen
crobc@earthlink.net
Suse 8.1 Linux 2.4.19

 

[Winfield Hill]

John Larkin wrote:

Hey, Here's my latest gadget:

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html

Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.

I'm impressed. OK, how much does it cost? I'd like to see a
scaled-back version, with 0.1ns resolution, and 8 channels, etc.
Smaller perhaps and cheaper. Scalable to 16, 24, 32 channels.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

 

[John Larkin]

On 16 Jul 2004 17:19:56 -0700, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
Hey, Here's my latest gadget:

http://www.highlandtechnology.com/DSS/P400DS.html

Actually, three of us here worked on this for about three years as
sort of a background project, when we didn't have a paying customer
screaming for delivery on something. I never appreciated how much
hassle a benchtop instrument would really be until this got serious. A
VME or PCI board is blindingly simple compared to all the stuff you
have to put into a box like this. And by the time you finish it,
things have changed so much you're dying to redesign it again from
scratch. m.u.s.t..r.e.s.i.s.t..t.e.m.p.t.a.t.i.o.n.

I'm impressed. OK, how much does it cost? I'd like to see a
scaled-back version, with 0.1ns resolution, and 8 channels, etc.
Smaller perhaps and cheaper. Scalable to 16, 24, 32 channels.

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

$3840, just a hair under brand S. I'd like to do a cheaper version
with a simpler technology, but my marketing people don't want us to
kill our own product just when it's getting up to speed. If you want a
lot of DDG channels, a rack full of VME modules is the usual way to
go. It's more common, actually, for people to want a lot of channels
of time measurement, as opposed to many channels of time delay.
Exceptions are big laser arrays like NIF, and implosion experiments.

Actually, a huge-number-of-channels delay gadget would be a fun thing
to do, but I'd guess you wouldn't sell many.

John

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:40:56 -0700, Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

If you have the s-parameters (preferably at more than one frequency) you
can make an equivalent circuit and use that in SPICE. OK for r.r.a.h., I
expect, but maybe not for s.e.d.. (;-)

A SPICE model constructed from s-parameter data can be useful, but only
under a very limited set of circumstances. First, it's valid only if the
signal level is small. This is often not the case with an oscillator,
unless external amplitude limiting is used (as it should be). Also, a
circuit very often can oscillate (as well as amplify) at more than one
frequency, and a SPICE model that's valid only over a small frequency
range won't predict this behavior. (A single frequency SPICE model is
simple to construct from s-parameter data, but one covering a wide range
of frequencies is just about impossible.)

What's the problem in making up your own (accurate) wideband Spice
model from measurements you make yourself on a VNA?
I'm also under the impression that a parameter such as (for example)
the base-collector capacitance lifted from a manufacturer's data sheet
and inserted into Spice won't work accurately. Why is this?
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 15:40:56 -0700, Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com
wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:

If you have the s-parameters (preferably at more than one
frequency) you can make an equivalent circuit and use that in
SPICE. OK for r.r.a.h., I expect, but maybe not for s.e.d.. (;-)

A SPICE model constructed from s-parameter data can be useful, but
only under a very limited set of circumstances. First, it's valid
only if the signal level is small. This is often not the case with
an oscillator, unless external amplitude limiting is used (as it
should be). Also, a circuit very often can oscillate (as well as
amplify) at more than one frequency, and a SPICE model that's valid
only over a small frequency range won't predict this behavior. (A
single frequency SPICE model is simple to construct from s-parameter
data, but one covering a wide range of frequencies is just about
impossible.)

What's the problem in making up your own (accurate) wideband Spice
model from measurements you make yourself on a VNA?
I'm also under the impression that a parameter such as (for example)
the base-collector capacitance lifted from a manufacturer's data sheet
and inserted into Spice won't work accurately. Why is this?

It should work ok if you use the right value. Go and have a look at the
basic spice capacitance equations. You can read I take it?

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:11:10 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

It should work ok if you use the right value. Go and have a look at the
basic spice capacitance equations. You can read I take it?

Hehe! You're such a card, Kev. I notice that you've avoided responding
to the original question in the thread, though! Bit beyond you was it?
;->
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:11:10 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

It should work ok if you use the right value. Go and have a look at
the basic spice capacitance equations. You can read I take it?


Hehe! You're such a card, Kev. I notice that you've avoided responding
to the original question in the thread, though! Bit beyond you was it?

There are loads of postings I don't respond to. Usuallly its the trivial
ones.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Roy Lewallen]

Paul Burridge wrote:

What's the problem in making up your own (accurate) wideband Spice
model from measurements you make yourself on a VNA?

The problem is in figuring out what components to use, and how to
connect them, to imitate the (usually complex) way the s-parameter data
change with frequency. If the circuit is very simple, with one or two
components dominating the frequency response, it's quite possible. But
an MMIC isn't likely to be in that category. Grab some s-parameters from
an MMIC data sheet and give it a try, and you'll see what I mean. Then,
for a real eye-opener, dust off your VNA, make your own measurements,
and see how close they come to the manufacturer's.

I'm also under the impression that a parameter such as (for example)
the base-collector capacitance lifted from a manufacturer's data sheet
and inserted into Spice won't work accurately. Why is this?

Depends on the accuracy you're looking for and the range of operation. A
simple transistor model, such as one made from data sheet parameters,
will work surprisingly well for many purposes. But it's a linear model,
good only for a very limited range of operating conditions. In a real
transistor, Ccb (for example) varies strongly with Vcb. A complete SPICE
model accounts for this, along with several tens of other factors
ignored by simpler models. If you're operating the transistor with a
small signal and at voltages, currents, and frequency near those on the
data sheet, a simple data sheet model can often be good enough.

One of my most treasured texts is _Modeling The Bipolar Transistor_, by
Ian Getreu, published by Tektronix in 1976 (Tek P/N 062-2841-00). It's
long out of print, but it might show up on eBay or elsewhere from time
to time and I highly recommend it to anyone seriously interested in
transistor modeling.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:40:56 -0700, Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
wrote:

Depends on the accuracy you're looking for and the range of operation. A
simple transistor model, such as one made from data sheet parameters,
will work surprisingly well for many purposes. But it's a linear model,
good only for a very limited range of operating conditions. In a real
transistor, Ccb (for example) varies strongly with Vcb. A complete SPICE
model accounts for this, along with several tens of other factors
ignored by simpler models. If you're operating the transistor with a
small signal and at voltages, currents, and frequency near those on the
data sheet, a simple data sheet model can often be good enough.

One of my most treasured texts is _Modeling The Bipolar Transistor_, by
Ian Getreu, published by Tektronix in 1976 (Tek P/N 062-2841-00). It's
long out of print, but it might show up on eBay or elsewhere from time
to time and I highly recommend it to anyone seriously interested in
transistor modeling.

Thanks, Roy. It's a pity Kevin (for whom I apologise) lacks the depth
of knowledge that so many advanced "build-it-yourself" radio amateurs
have acquired over many years of hands-on experimentation.
I'll certainly try to get hold of a copy of this book. It sounds just
the ticket for my purposes.
Your reply throws up another interesting question: which model
parameters are essential for adequate modeling of the BJT up into UHF,
and which, by their omission, call the model's reliability at beyond
such high frequencies into question?
Thanks,

p.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Roy Lewallen]

Paul Burridge wrote:

. . .
Your reply throws up another interesting question: which model
parameters are essential for adequate modeling of the BJT up into UHF,
and which, by their omission, call the model's reliability at beyond
such high frequencies into question?
Thanks,

There is no answer to that question. It's sort of like asking which
words are essential in order to communicate.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:40:56 -0700, Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com
wrote:

Depends on the accuracy you're looking for and the range of
operation. A simple transistor model, such as one made from data
sheet parameters, will work surprisingly well for many purposes. But
it's a linear model, good only for a very limited range of operating
conditions. In a real transistor, Ccb (for example) varies strongly
with Vcb. A complete SPICE model accounts for this, along with
several tens of other factors ignored by simpler models. If you're
operating the transistor with a small signal and at voltages,
currents, and frequency near those on the data sheet, a simple data
sheet model can often be good enough.

One of my most treasured texts is _Modeling The Bipolar Transistor_,
by Ian Getreu, published by Tektronix in 1976 (Tek P/N 062-2841-00).
It's long out of print, but it might show up on eBay or elsewhere
from time to time and I highly recommend it to anyone seriously
interested in transistor modeling.

Thanks, Roy. It's a pity Kevin (for whom I apologise) lacks the depth
of knowledge that so many advanced "build-it-yourself" radio amateurs
have acquired over many years of hands-on experimentation.

Oh dear...Clueless as usual again my son.

History....

I had my first electronics kit at 11. At that age I discovered on my own
how to feed a signal into a transistor radio and us it as a pre amp for
my guitar, playing it into an old valve radio gramme. By the time I was
14/15 I was constructing the electronics for my home build disco deck
units which I used to take to school. During ages 17-21 I was actively
building and designing much guitar equipment such as phaser pedals,
guitar amplifiers, wah-wahs and distortion boxes etc. During my time at
university I earned reasonable cash doing repairs for a local music
shop. This knowledge allowed my first pro designed power amp to still
out perform most, if not all current commercial pro audio power amps
today, in areas such as distortion, e.g.
http://www.studiomaster.com/hp5.html. Following on from this is 20+
years solid professional post graduate design in areas such as the
ultrasound medical imaging equipment front end boards, fibre optics,
telecomm equipment, telemetry, etc. Simply put, I have more practical
experience on electronics than you have had hot dinners.

The knowledge that you present of electronics makes it quite clearl that
your "experience" is aimless soldering of components. As usual, your
pissing in the wind.

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
wrote (in <10g42947pb1ff96@corp.supernews.com&gt about 'The bi-polar
transistor at RF', on Sat, 24 Jul 2004:

There is no answer to that question. It's sort of like asking which
words are essential in order to communicate.

But the answer to that question is 'English, usually'. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <4loMc.79702$y04.61616@fe2.news.b
lueyonder.co.uk&gt about 'The bi-polar transistor at RF', on Sat, 24 Jul
2004:

Oh dear...Clueless as usual again my son.

Just ignore him. He seems to delight in provoking and insulting people.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:37:36 GMT,

As yet unrecognized quantum electrodynamicist, astrophysicist,
mathematician, logician, neo-Darwinist, talented musican, programmer,
electronic designer, polymath and hierophant, Kevin Aylward wrote:

History....

[the usual self-aggrandizement snipped]

If you're as smart as you make yourself out to be, you might address
the real questions here, rather than make continual attempts to gain
acceptance and recognition by blowing your own trumpet in an
embarrassingly obvious fashion.
HTH.
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 00:00:50 -0700, Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
wrote:

Paul Burridge wrote:
. . .
Your reply throws up another interesting question: which model
parameters are essential for adequate modeling of the BJT up into UHF,
and which, by their omission, call the model's reliability at beyond
such high frequencies into question?
Thanks,

There is no answer to that question. It's sort of like asking which
words are essential in order to communicate.

Sorry, perhaps I didn't explain properly. I'm talking about *Spice*
parameters here and there are a finite number of them. Obviously Cje
and Cjb are essential for accurately modelling into RF., but are there
any others that must be included (excepting of course factors external
to the transistor like lead-length and case/ground capacitance etc.)?
--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:13:59 +0100, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote (in <4loMc.79702$y04.61616@fe2.news.b
lueyonder.co.uk&gt about 'The bi-polar transistor at RF', on Sat, 24 Jul
2004:
Oh dear...Clueless as usual again my son.

Just ignore him. He seems to delight in provoking and insulting people.

Yeah, but he's *so* up his own arse one cannot help taking a pot-shot
at him from time to time. It's good entertainment value.

--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.

 

[Winfield Hill]

Roy Lewallen wrote...

One of my most treasured texts is _Modeling The Bipolar Transistor_,
by Ian Getreu, published by Tektronix in 1976 (Tek P/N 062-2841-00).
It's long out of print, but it might show up on eBay or elsewhere
from time to time and I highly recommend it to anyone seriously
interested in transistor modeling.

Amazon has one listed, for $190. :&gt

Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dot-org for now)

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Paul Burridge wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:37:36 GMT,

As yet unrecognized quantum electrodynamicist, astrophysicist,
mathematician, logician, neo-Darwinist, talented musican, programmer,
electronic designer, polymath and hierophant,

Oh...please dont...stop...

Kevin Aylward wrote:

History....

[the usual self-aggrandizement snipped]

If you're as smart

I'm not smart at all. If I were so, I wouldn't be wasting my time
discusing such mundane mattes with you.

as you make yourself out to be,

I have knowledge and experience gained over many years. I am good at
what I do, not by being smart, but by making 1000's of times of mistakes
more than others who don't actually do anything but just waffle on, like
for example, Mr. Burridge. I spend a lot of time doing what I do,
clearly all you do is doodle on the back of envelopes whilst ridding the
bus home from the day care centre.

you might address
the real questions here, rather than make continual attempts to gain
acceptance and recognition by blowing your own trumpet in an
embarrassingly obvious fashion.

Indeed I do. If one doesn't vote for oneself, how does one expect to get
other people to vote for one?

Kevin Aylward
salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Paul Burridge]

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:47:55 GMT, "Kevin Aylward"
<salesEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote:

I'm not smart at all. If I were so, I wouldn't be wasting my time
discusing such mundane mattes with you.

Yes, it must be truly awful having to put up with grubby oiks like me
who keep asking stoopid questions about basic electricity that a child
of 6 would know the answer to.

I have knowledge and experience gained over many years. I am good at
what I do, not by being smart, but by making 1000's of times of mistakes
more than others who don't actually do anything but just waffle on, like
for example, Mr. Burridge. I spend a lot of time doing what I do,
clearly all you do is doodle on the back of envelopes whilst ridding the
bus home from the day care centre.

Well day centers aren't really my thing. I don't need the company of a
bunch of old fogies like Jim Thompson to stimulate me. I read
extensively - something you yourself might benefit from. When was the
last time you actually picked up a book?

Indeed I do. If one doesn't vote for oneself, how does one expect to get
other people to vote for one?

You want a vote? Okay; I'll arrange one...

--

"What is now proved was once only imagin'd." - William Blake, 1793.